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Brady/MMM: Will the NRA Tell the Truth about Military-Style Assault Weapons?
Join Together ^ | 12/3/2004 | Brady Campaign

Posted on 12/04/2004 4:34:26 PM PST by TERMINATTOR

Join Together Online

"This is not a gun you go deer hunting with."
Lawrence Keane, senior vice president and general counsel National Shooting Sports Foundation New York Times, 11-23-04


"They can be used for hunting. They are not any more
powerful, and they're not... you can hunt anything. People
hunt everything from deer to any type of game."
Wayne LaPierre, President
National Rifle Association
Hardball with Chris Matthews, 9-8-04


Washington, DC - The SKS rifle apparently used by the hunter to kill six other hunters in Wisconsin wasn't banned under the Federal assault weapons ban that expired September 13, but it should be banned for civilian use. Designed for use in war, even the gun industry admitted yesterday that it's not intended for hunting.

It may, in fact, be the first time the official spokesman for the National Shooting Sports Foundation has admitted that any military-style semiautomatic assault rifle is inappropriate for hunting. Lawrence Keane, senior vice president of the group, went further, and even told the New York Times that the SKS isn't a humane weapon for hunting deer. "The reason the SKS is not used by hunters, Mr. Keane said, is that it is designed for combat soldiers and is therefore underpowered for killing an animal like a deer with a single shot, the goal of good hunters," The Times wrote. "'The ethics of hunting are you don't want the animal to suffer needlessly,' Mr. Keane said."

Prior to the expiration of the assault weapons ban, the industry's spokespersons were unified in describing these types of weapons as perfectly normal for use by hunters. It was one of the industry's main arguments for letting the ban expire.

Since the ban's expiration, high-profile crimes involving assault weapons have already become more commonplace. Plano, Texas police are searching for members of a bank robbery gang that have opened fire on police with AK-47s, and that same weapon is believed to be the weapon of choice of a killer or killers who have shot eight people in West Palm Beach, Florida.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: ak47s; assaultrifle; bang; banglist; gungrabbers; saiga; sks
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They still haven't figured out that it was a Saiga, an AK-47 variant, NOT an SKS.

They've switched to calling the SKS an "assault rifle" instead of an "assault weapon". Even further from the truth! The SKS was never an automatic. "semiautomatic assault rifle" is a contradiction in terms.

1 posted on 12/04/2004 4:34:26 PM PST by TERMINATTOR
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To: TERMINATTOR

little things like truth and logic will not stop the brady bunch and liberals in general.


2 posted on 12/04/2004 4:38:13 PM PST by Kidan (www.krashpad.com)
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To: TERMINATTOR

Boy, that sure didn't take them long. Hope they get as much traction out of this as they did Columbine. So that psycho was using a Saiga, the sporterized variant? NOT an SKS?


3 posted on 12/04/2004 4:38:17 PM PST by sinanju
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To: TERMINATTOR

Lawrence Keane should have kept his pie-hole shut.


4 posted on 12/04/2004 4:38:53 PM PST by Wonder Warthog (The Hog of Steel)
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To: TERMINATTOR
Maybe if we actually punished the criminals who commit crimes with weapons we would get somewhere. Only one of the six people that the guy executed even had a rifle of his own. He's got a violent criminal history as well, something that none of his victims had.
5 posted on 12/04/2004 4:41:01 PM PST by Mojave Mark (The Democrats... gravitas free since '63)
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To: TERMINATTOR

I think they are correct, these monstrous weapons have to be controlled. They should reinvigorate their most worthy national campaign to get these weapons off the street, er, out of the woods. Should make it a campaign issue in 2008 in fact. Something has got to be done. And the people will support it. Yeah, that's the ticket.


6 posted on 12/04/2004 4:42:47 PM PST by Search4Truth (When a man lies he murders some part of the world.)
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To: sinanju

I believe the police report called it a "Saiga SKS". That may be all we know about it.


7 posted on 12/04/2004 4:46:25 PM PST by TERMINATTOR ("I believe in background checks at gun shows or anywhere" - GWB)
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To: Mojave Mark
Maybe if we actually punished the criminals who commit crimes with weapons

Please, no facts.We're dealing with feeeeeelings here.

8 posted on 12/04/2004 4:48:07 PM PST by Puppage (You may disagree with what I have to say, but I shall defend to your death my right to say it.)
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To: TERMINATTOR

We lose the argument as soon as we concede, incorrectly, that the second amendment was about hunting.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

How can that be interpreted to mean "the government shall restrict the right of the people to bear arms to those appropriate only for hunting purposes"???

Since when is the US Constitution about recreation?


9 posted on 12/04/2004 4:53:31 PM PST by watchin (Democratic Party - the political wing of the IRS)
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To: Wonder Warthog

---and, hopefully will lose his job---as ignorant as he must be , he'd be a natural in, say, the airline industry--


10 posted on 12/04/2004 4:56:43 PM PST by rellimpank
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To: TERMINATTOR
"This is not a gun you go deer hunting with."
- Anonymous British Colonel, circa 1700's, upon finding those irritating Americans are pretty well armed, and pretty good shots on top of that.

Oh that the great myth that the 2nd Ammendment is for preserving the right to hunt, oh that the lie would just fade away.

Of course, anti-gunners don't care about the 2nd Ammendment. They don't care about what they need to say to gut it, either. Lies? No problem. Misstatements? Sure. Pathetic guilt-trip tearjerker stories? Bring 'em on!

No use preaching to the choir, though. If you are reading this post, you are very likely in agreement.


11 posted on 12/04/2004 4:57:10 PM PST by boycottliberalhollywood.com (www.boycottliberalhollywood.com - www.twoamericas.us)
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To: TERMINATTOR

Hinkley shot the wrong Brady.


12 posted on 12/04/2004 4:59:17 PM PST by sgtbono2002 (If God doesnt destroy Hollywood he owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology.)
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To: PjhCPA; Iowa Granny; ohioWfan; Petruchio; SJackson; Rytwyng; Dr Snide; ozaukeemom; Graybeard58; ...
Ping to the latest from Brady, et al...

--------------------------------------
** If you want on/off the WI Hunters ping list,
please let me know. **

Wisconsin Hunter Shooting Threads and Links

13 posted on 12/04/2004 4:59:33 PM PST by Ladysmith (Wisconsin Hunter Shootings: If you want on/off the WI Hunters ping list, please let me know.)
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To: TERMINATTOR

Even if it were an SKS, while not a deer rifle, the SKS is a passable hunting rifle for smaller game. It's an excellent, and cheap varmit rifle.


14 posted on 12/04/2004 5:00:44 PM PST by Melas
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To: sgtbono2002

That's just wrong.


15 posted on 12/04/2004 5:01:10 PM PST by Melas
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To: Kidan
It may, in fact, be the first time the official spokesman for the National Shooting Sports Foundation has admitted that any military-style semiautomatic assault rifle is inappropriate for hunting. Lawrence Keane, senior vice president of the group, went further, and even told the New York Times that the SKS isn't a humane weapon for hunting deer. "The reason the SKS is not used by hunters, Mr. Keane said, is that it is designed for combat soldiers and is therefore underpowered for killing an animal like a deer with a single shot, the goal of good hunters," The Times wrote. "'The ethics of hunting are you don't want the animal to suffer needlessly,' Mr. Keane said."

So I suppose if the sooter used a .300 Winchester, this would be preferrable? Tell you what, what if the shooter used a .50 BMG??? Would that be powerful enough? No, wait, it would be too powerful, obviously a military weapon. Now, if he shot those other hunters with a .270, that would be acceptable; after all, that makes for a nice deer gun, and since the gun wouldn't be a (gasp) AsSaUlT WeApOn, I suppose those six victims would have had a better chance.

Man, liberals are a stupid lot! Somebody needs to inform these pour ignorant souls that the Second Ammendment has nothing to do with hunting!

16 posted on 12/04/2004 5:03:16 PM PST by boycottliberalhollywood.com (www.boycottliberalhollywood.com - www.twoamericas.us)
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To: TERMINATTOR
I note that even Keane says "the reason" it should not be allowed for hunting is that it is under-powered for hunting.

Translated by any sane person, that belies the grabbees "high-powered assault weapon" sobriquet, without even addressing their bogus "automatic assault weapon" designation for a semi.

17 posted on 12/04/2004 5:05:50 PM PST by ApplegateRanch (The world needs more horses, and fewer Jackasses!)
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To: TERMINATTOR

I guess all hunters could give up their firearms and switch to bow and arrow – or Wham-o sling shots.
Of course, the 2nd Amendment doesn’t really have much to do with hunting.


18 posted on 12/04/2004 5:08:00 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: Wonder Warthog
Lawrence Keane should have kept his pie-hole shut.

Lawrence Keane was misquoted, and he is perturbed. I am trying to get him to post a correction on freerepublic, but I only emailed him yesterday.

19 posted on 12/04/2004 5:08:57 PM PST by marktwain
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To: TERMINATTOR

PLENTY of people hunt deer with SKSs in Mississippi.

MM


20 posted on 12/04/2004 5:09:47 PM PST by MississippiMan (Americans should not be sacrificed on the altar of political correctness.)
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To: watchin

Exactly. Ya stole my post.

Guns were always intended for protection, whether personal or against a tyrannical government or against the wilderness.

Isn't it possible that this guy was just hunting and returned fire against other hunters who shot at him out of anger, saving his life by virtue of the fact that he was in better position?

I remember several years back that even the ACLU weighed in on a case where a poor family bought a gun for protection in the city and they defended them because it was the cheapest way to obtain protection. I wish I remembered the details.


21 posted on 12/04/2004 5:14:52 PM PST by Kevin OMalley (Kevin O'Malley)
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To: TERMINATTOR

Maybe the liberals at Brady/MMM should worry about the uncivilized third world garbage Teddy Keennedy/Dems and RINOs allow too flood into America.

If Kerry and his commie pals would have allowed the military and Nixon to win JFK's Vietnam war that LBJ screwed up, the Hmong tribesman like Vang would be back in SE Asia.


22 posted on 12/04/2004 5:16:16 PM PST by FrankRepublican (Boycott NBC & their parent company General Electric for smearing the USMC)
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To: boycottliberalhollywood.com

oh, but it is all about hunting...politicians!


23 posted on 12/04/2004 5:16:51 PM PST by castlebrew (true gun control is hitting where you're aiming!)
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To: rellimpank
---and, hopefully will lose his job---as ignorant as he must be , he'd be a natural in, say, the airline industry--

..and Mr. Mineta (sp) ....why is this democrat still standing in the way of armed pilots?

24 posted on 12/04/2004 5:16:51 PM PST by cbkaty
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To: R. Scott
switch to bow and arrow

Haven't you heard? PETA has gone after the bow and arrows gang too. In the UK, they're going after clubs; even fists if there is the intent to do injury to an intruder, and of course they're banning all the nasty blood sport hunting, too!

25 posted on 12/04/2004 5:18:40 PM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: TERMINATTOR

"Since the ban's expiration, high-profile crimes involving assault weapons have already become more commonplace. Plano, Texas police are searching for members of a bank robbery gang that have opened fire on police with AK-47s, and that same weapon is believed to be the weapon of choice of a killer or killers who have shot eight people in West Palm Beach, Florida."

1. Where are their citations? After all, truth is the first casulty of liberal activism.

2. An AK-47, in fully automatic mode, or with an oversized clip, is still illegal. In semi-automatic mode it's not any more lethal than any number of "non-assult" offerings.

3. In any case, somone who has shot 8 people wouldn't have been converted to a straight-laced Lutheran pastor by the removal of the AK-47, let alone the renewal of that Assult Ban. Ditto for the bank robbers.

The only way that gun laws actually work is if we send in the Marines and the go door to door, breaking down doors and collecting weapons. And that seems to be the intent of some who proposed more gun laws (the rest just want to be re-elected to office).

Tim


26 posted on 12/04/2004 5:19:40 PM PST by TWohlford
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To: MississippiMan

It doesn't matter what kind of gun it was. The constitution isn't about hunting and I don't remember anywhere in the document where it prohibited using military arms for hunting. BTW, while not my choice, the 762x39 works quite well on close range deer. You can even find non-milsurp ammo.


27 posted on 12/04/2004 5:23:32 PM PST by umgud (Donate monthly, don't be a Freeploader)
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To: TERMINATTOR

The SKS fires the 7.62x39 cartridge which is similar in power to the .30-30 which has killed more deer than probably any other cartridge. To imply that the SKS is fine for killing people, but not deer also overlooks the similarities in the two animals.


28 posted on 12/04/2004 5:26:59 PM PST by OldEagle (Haven't been wrong since 1947, except about Hillary.)
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To: TERMINATTOR
"'The ethics of hunting are you don't want the animal LIBERAL to suffer needlessly,' Mr. Keane said."

OTOH, there's the Saving Private Ryan scenario. Remember the bunkers? The Flamethrowers? Don't shoot! Let 'em BURN!!

29 posted on 12/04/2004 5:27:57 PM PST by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: OldEagle

I don’t comment much but this is so much BS it really ticks me off.

This rifle is plenty powerful for killing deer.
I have an SKS and have used exclusively for deer hunting for years.

I have bagged at least 5 deer with it – and never lost one.
This is a great rifle for deer hunting and very economical.
I paid less than $150 for the rifle and scope – 10 years ago.

In fact I recently relocated from the east coast to Utah, and I’m going
to use it here for the same purpose.


30 posted on 12/04/2004 5:37:31 PM PST by Ethan Edwards
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To: Ladysmith

please put me on the ping list


31 posted on 12/04/2004 5:37:50 PM PST by ReeWalker (At the core of modern liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are,)
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To: Ethan Edwards

How would the SKS be for a woman(not real big) for coyote hunting??


32 posted on 12/04/2004 5:43:12 PM PST by ReeWalker (At the core of modern liberalism is the spoiled child - miserable, as all spoiled children are,)
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To: ReeWalker

Ok, you're on.


33 posted on 12/04/2004 5:48:41 PM PST by Ladysmith (Wisconsin Hunter Shootings: If you want on/off the WI Hunters ping list, please let me know.)
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To: ReeWalker

They make a paratrooper model, which I believe has a shorter barrel length, and stock.

Would be perfect for a smaller framed woman to bag some coyotes with.


34 posted on 12/04/2004 5:49:08 PM PST by Ethan Edwards
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To: watchin
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

The, Second, Amendment, contains, only, a single, comma.

35 posted on 12/04/2004 5:52:45 PM PST by boris (The deadliest weapon of mass destruction in history is a Leftist with a word processor)
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To: ReeWalker
Nearly all SKS rifles have a short stock, which makes them fit smaller people better. Accuracy varies. It can be a good coyote gun out to 200 yards, if the stock fits well (the barrel and action of the rifle, not the person), which seems to be a common problem for accuracy.

It all depends on how much you wish to spend, and how long a range you are interested in shooting at.

For about three times the price you can get a .223 savage bolt action that is three times as accurate out of the box.

Are you already a huntress, or just considering it?

We could start a separate thread on this and I estimate you would have a hundred posts in two hours. It is just an observable thing about freerepublic and gun questions.

36 posted on 12/04/2004 5:59:45 PM PST by marktwain
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To: TERMINATTOR

The Second Amendment is NOT about hunting food.

It is about KILLING the en enemies of the United States of America - both foreign AND domenstic.

That is what scares the left and lawyers more than anything.


37 posted on 12/04/2004 6:07:43 PM PST by steplock (http://www.outoftimeradio.org)
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To: TERMINATTOR

Then what about that Hmong guy in Wisconsin? He went hunting with a so-called assault rifle. But, actually, if you read the 2nd Amendment very, very, carefully, it says nothing about hunting. It's there so the individual can defend himself or herself from whatever comes along. Most certainly the government will not do that.


38 posted on 12/04/2004 6:18:16 PM PST by henderson field
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To: ApplegateRanch

A rifle being "underpowered for hunting" depends entirely on the hunter. There was an old lady of legend up in northern Quebec who used to get a moose ever year with a .22 rimfire.


39 posted on 12/04/2004 6:21:17 PM PST by henderson field
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To: Melas

>> "Even if it were an SKS, while not a deer rifle, the SKS is a passable hunting rifle for smaller game. It's an excellent, and cheap varmit rifle." <<

I beg to disagree. The SCS is a decent deer rifle (particularly in the shorter ranges found on the East Coast). It has about the same ballistics as the 30-30, which may have taken more deer than any other single caliber.

It is less favorable as a varmint rifle. A higher velocity, flatter shooting caliber would be better.


40 posted on 12/04/2004 6:21:30 PM PST by sd-joe
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To: boris

Yeah. Those weapons are not for deer hunting, all right, but they're for defending your family against those two-legged critters who have them and are after you. Anyone with a brain understands that outlawing any weapon only makes the law-abiding citizen vulnerable to that weapon. Why do idiots think that passing gun laws that restrict law-abiding citizens will get guns out of the hands of the lawless? They somehow have a propensity to ignore laws;hence, the reason they are lawLESS. If I am being attacked by an assault weapon, I certainly do not want to try to defend myself with a peashooter. Why is that logic so hard to understand?


41 posted on 12/04/2004 6:21:40 PM PST by dimmer-rats stealvotes
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To: Wonder Warthog
I was ready to make a similar comment, and then I decided to do a quick Google.

I couldn't find any published quote by Mr. Keane. I should have suspected - the likelihood is that the anti-gunners are also the LIARS (why should they change now ;'}
42 posted on 12/04/2004 6:31:56 PM PST by rockrr
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To: Kevin OMalley
Isn't it possible that this guy was just hunting and returned fire against other hunters who shot at him out of anger, saving his life by virtue of the fact that he was in better position?

Wisconsin Hunter Shooting Threads and Links - Thread One

Read some of the background before posting such asinine garbage. He shot eight people, some multiple times, most in the back, including a woman and a teenage boy. All but one were unarmed and he was shot first. Vang is a stone cold pathological killer. He has a history of domestic abuse and has had trespassing citations since he started deer hunting in Wisconsin.

Regards,
GtG

43 posted on 12/04/2004 6:56:31 PM PST by Gandalf_The_Gray (I live in my own little world, but I like it 'cuz they know me here.)
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To: TERMINATTOR
The 7.62X39 Com Bloc round has nearly identical ballistics to the round that has taken more white tailed deer than the next two most popular deer hunting cartridges combined...

The Win 30-30...the caliber of the popular lever action...seen in countless cowboy movies.

There were probably a few thousand rifles chambered in that caliber in the WI woods that day
and hunters armed with them...yet none of them killed any human beings except that scum bag murderer Vang

Low life scum bag dirty rotten crazy sons of beaches have been murdering people since Cain killed Abel...

Sometimes they herd them into camps and kill them by the millions..sometimes they kill their own parents with axes..or kill their spouses with poison...

Murder is as old a crime as mankind...and will be with us as long as man is around...or at least until the Lord Jesus comes back and frees us from our nature...

Naturally the real reason the gun grabbers want to take away firearms is because an armed populace of decent hard working tax payers who know their rights under the US constitution might fight their commie asses when they make their final push to try and take our nation away

Guns in the hands of its free citizens scare the heck outta of totalitarians..they want to disarm us and conquer us so bad they can taste it....

And are looking for any and every excuse and seize upon any lie...to get people to give up their freedom and to force or coerce their neighbors to give up their guns for the gun grabbers..
44 posted on 12/04/2004 7:44:31 PM PST by joesnuffy ("The merit of our Constitution was, not that it promotes democracy, but checks it." Horatio Seymour)
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To: Gandalf_The_Gray

I stand corrected. I didn't have time til now to look into it.


45 posted on 12/04/2004 8:27:07 PM PST by Kevin OMalley (Kevin O'Malley)
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To: TERMINATTOR
Text of the Second Amendment
"A well regulated Militia
being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."


Anyone who actually reads AND understands the 2nd Amendment will see that there is no need or authority for any type of gun registration and there is no need for anyone to have to apply for a license to carry a gun.
Any political party, politician, judge (etc), organization or individual who trys to convince you that:
1) you must register a firearm
2) you must pass a background check
3) you must wait (x) amount of days before you can get your firearm
4) you need to have a license to carry a gun
is either uneducated about OUR rights as citizens
OR is actively working to undermine OUR country.

How Did the Founders Understand the Second Amendment?

CONGRESS in 1866, 1941 and 1986 REAFFIRMS THE SECOND AMENDMENT
The Bill of Rights, including the Second Amendment right to keep and bear firearms,
originated in the United States Congress in 1789 before being ratified by the States.
On three occasions since then--in 1866, 1941, and 1986--
Congress enacted statutes to reaffirm this guarantee of personal freedom
and to adopt specific safeguards to enforce it.


ON THE DAY BEFORE Thanksgiving 1993,
the 103d US Congress brought forth a constitutional turkey.
The 103d Congress decided that the Second Amendment did not mean what it said
("...shall not be infringed") and passed the Brady bill.

How the Brady Bill Passed (and subsequently - "Instant Check")
When the Brady Bill was passed into law on November 24, 1993,
the Senate voted on the Conference Report
and passed the Brady Bill by UNANIMOUS CONSENT.



46 posted on 12/04/2004 8:32:07 PM PST by 68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub (Want better gun control? Try eating more carrots.)
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To: TERMINATTOR
""'The ethics of hunting are you don't want the animal to suffer needlessly,' Mr. Keane said.""

Okay, I'll just have to use a Barrett or Smith .50 on both people and animals. What's ethical for animals has to be ethical for people too, right? Yeah, that's logical. Wouldn't want some perp to just lay there and moan if I don't shoot him through the heart on the first shot. I'll take my AK along for squirrels and rabbits. It's the ethical thing to do.

47 posted on 12/04/2004 8:36:06 PM PST by Eastbound ("Neither a Scrooge nor a Patsy be")
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To: rellimpank

As what? A wheel chock?


48 posted on 12/04/2004 9:18:01 PM PST by doublecansiter
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To: Wonder Warthog

Send her packing, if she isn't already!


49 posted on 12/04/2004 10:23:21 PM PST by endthematrix ("Hey, it didn't hit a bone, Colonel. Do you think I can go back?" - U.S. Marine)
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To: ApplegateRanch
Translated by any sane person,

Aha!! I just knew there had to be a trick.

50 posted on 12/04/2004 11:14:38 PM PST by epow
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