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Fringe On The U.S. Flag What Does It Mean? Admiralty Courts in Colorado?
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Posted on 12/07/2004 7:38:13 PM PST by Pharmboy

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To: Army Air Corps
Man, I may have to look at his archived posts. he sounds like a loon. Did he just cross the line between "amusingly nutty" to "call the guys with the butterfly nets"?

At the time, I had run-ins with him on several threads (as in this Post 64).

I claimed that the most likely cause of the Kursk's demise was an onboard torpedo accident as they used highly dangerous hydrogen peroxide as propellant fuel.

But, what did I know. :-)

The Michael Rivero standard conspiracy theory was that, if something blew up or sank, it was the fault of the U.S. Government.

61 posted on 12/07/2004 8:34:18 PM PST by Polybius
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To: All

If it is purely decorative and holds no "significance" then the court should have no problems with replacing it with a non-fringed flag if a defendent so chooses (he brings his own American flag), no?

Odd that the "fringe" would push for a flag with "no fringe".

62 posted on 12/07/2004 8:36:22 PM PST by weegee (WE FOUGHT ZOGBYISM November 2, 2004 - 60 Million Voters versus 60 Minutes - BUSH WINS!!!)
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To: Doctor Raoul

I know that Dale Gribble has brought this up in at least one episode of King Of The Hill. I can't recall what he was in court for.

63 posted on 12/07/2004 8:38:13 PM PST by weegee (WE FOUGHT ZOGBYISM November 2, 2004 - 60 Million Voters versus 60 Minutes - BUSH WINS!!!)
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To: Cultural Jihad
"I do not recognize the authority of a court that hangs the gold fringe flag. A flag with gilded edges is the flag of an Admirality Court. An Admirality Court signifies a naval court martial. I cannot be court martialed twice."

Dale Gribble, King of the Hill, Episode KH203

'nuff said

64 posted on 12/07/2004 8:41:22 PM PST by Hessian (Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.)
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To: Pharmboy

65 posted on 12/07/2004 8:41:25 PM PST by WilliamWallace1999
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To: weegee

In that same diatribe, Gribble said something to the effect that he would not be court-martialed AGAIN. Funny stuff.

66 posted on 12/07/2004 8:42:11 PM PST by Army Air Corps (Half a league, half a league rode the MSM into the valley of obscurity)
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To: Pharmboy
cry over the current usurpers of jurisprudence.

There's the "U word". It's the most reliable kook indicator.

67 posted on 12/07/2004 8:43:20 PM PST by Cogadh na Sith (--Scots Gaelic: 'War or Peace'--)
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To: Pharmboy

Court Cases on Yellow Fringed Flags

Richard Anthony

The following court cases deal with objections to the court having a yellow fringed flag. In every case, the court ruled that it is frivolous to argue that there is a yellow fringed flag in the court. Many "'patriots" (for profit) have used these court cases to "prove" that it does not matter if the flag has a yellow fringe or not. But if it does not matter, why doesn't the court simply bring a non-fringed flag into the court like the accused asked them to? However, as will be seen, the reason for the courts ruling against these arguments was not because it is irrelevant as to what flag is flown, but because the accused used the wrong arguments and submitted themselves to the courts jurisdiction! [Richard's comments in brackets].

Remember, a court is not under military jurisdiction because of the yellow fringed flag, but the yellow fringed flag is there because the court is under military jurisdiction. Keep this in mind as you read these cases.

Slangal v. Cassel (D Neb 1997) 962 F.Supp 1214. "I find and conclude that any complaint predicated in whole or in part upon the allegation that jurisdiction is based upon the 'American Free Flag of Peace, title 4 USC 1'...or a similar allegation is frivolous, malicious and intended to harass. The plaintiff or anyone else who has filed...such a 'flag' suit is notified that any such suit filed after this date will be dismissed sua sponte without notice for lack of subject matter jurisdiction."

[Jurisdiction is based upon Law, and not upon flags or 'signs.' In addition, "the plaintiff or anyone else who has filed" an action in a military court, is voluntarily submitting himself to the court's jurisdiction. To go to a military court, and enter into a 'contract' with that court, then argue one is not under its jurisdiction, is, of course, frivolous. Since scripture forbids going to courts of law, plaintiffs and litigants are forsaking God's Law, and are thus under man's law. "It is an elementary rule of pleading, that a plea to the jurisdiction is... a tacit admission that the court has a right to judge in the case, and is a waiver to all exceptions to the jurisdiction." 6 Bush Ky.8.

Schneider v. Schlaefer (ED Wisc 1997) 975 F.Supp 1160. Quoting McCann case and Atty-Gen Op and "from this day forward litigants...are put on notice that any claims or defenses based upon the alleged pre-eminence of the 'American Flag of Peace' over any other flag are frivolous and sanctionable."

[No flag has pre-eminence over any other flag. They are all equally 'idols' in God's eyes].

US v. G.D. Bell (ED Cal unpub 4/30/97) 79 AFTR 2d 2784 recons.den (ED Cal 1998) 27 F.Supp.2d 1191. "As to the physical composition of the flag in the courtroom, the General Services Administration Office of the Courts supply furnishings for the courtroom. Defendants should address any complaints about the form of the courtroom flag to the General Services Administration."

[Being a defendant also gives jurisdiction. The correct term to use is "accused"].

Jarboe v. Reichle (Conn.Super. unpub 11/10/86). Claiming that "the presence of an alleged gold fringed military flag in the courtroom indicates this [State] court is not a constitutional court."

[Since the constitution does establish military courts, it is a constitutional court. All military courts are constitutional.]

State v. Martz (Ohio App. unpub 6/9/97) app.dismissed 80 Ohio St.3d 1423, 685 NE2d 237. Appellant claims the trial court was without jurisdiction...because the courtroom displayed a military style US flag with gold fringe. We disagree."

[Again, flags do not determine jurisdiction, they only reveal the jurisdiction already present. And why did 'appellant' go to their jurisdiction to sue? By doing so, he again submitted himself to their military jurisdiction, voluntarily!]

Jarboe v. Reichle (Conn.Super. unpub 11/10/86). This one said that fringe on the flag made it a military court.

[The flag does not make it a military court, law does. The flag only shows what jurisdiction already exists.]

Dunkel v. McCloskey (ED Penn unpub 11/25/98). "This Court is persuaded that the American Flag statute cannot be relied on as a jurisdictional basis for a [civil rights] action." Rule 11 sanctions imposed.

[Civil Rights are governed by military law].

Wyatt v. Kelly, Chief Bankruptcy Judge (WD Texas unpub 3/23/98) 44 USPQ2d 1578, 81 AFTR2d 1463, 98 USTC para 50326. Tried to sue judge for not removing fringed flag nor installing "a flag that met plaintiff's specifications." Court imposed Rule 11 fine of $1000.

[This is like suing a police officer for not removing his badge. The decor does not determine jurisdiction, but only indicates what already exists.]

Ch.H. Cass v. R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Co (MDNC unpub 10/1/98) 82 AFTR2d 6967. Suing federal judges, US Attorneys, county registrars, IRS agents, and some big corporations because of fringed flag. "The complaint will be dismissed not because this court operates under the regal splendor of a gold fringed flag but because the complaint is legally absurd."

[It is rather absurd to sue a military institution for displaying a military flag, isn't it?].

Marion v. Marion (Conn.Super. unpub 6/18/98). Trying to sue a town official and a judge for "accepting" a fringed US flag supposedly thereby "suppressing" the perp's rights.

[Followers of Christ have no "rights" in scripture, except the right to the tree of life - Revelation 22:14].

US v. Schiefen (D SoDak 1995) 926 F.Supp 877 aff'd 81 F3d 166 mand.denied 522 US 1074. "Federal jurisdiction is determined by statute, not by whether the flag flown is plain or fringed."

McCann v. Greenway (WD Mo 1997) 952 F.Supp 647. "Jurisdiction is a matter of law statute, and constitution, not a child's game wherein one's power is magnified or diminished by the display of some magic talisman." And quoting the 34 Op.US Atty-Gen 483 (1925) that "in flag manufacture a fringe is not considered to be a part of the flag and it is without heraldic significance."

Lang v. Dieleuterio (D NJ unpub 2/17/99). "Such objections to the court's flag, or even to the absence of any flag, have uniformly been dismissed as meritless because the type of flag displayed does not effect federal jurisdiction."

City of Belton v. Horton (Mo.App 1997) 947 SW2d 104. Claimed the fringe on the American flag "the court was thus a foreign power, and the trial judge was the supreme ruler of a foreign power, devoid of any jurisdiction over him." Similarly in Wacker v. Crow (10th Cir unpub 7/1/99).

G.D. Fowler v. State (Ark.App 1999) 67 Ark.App 114, 992 SW2d 804. The defendant's objection to the fringe was emphasized by the prosecution during cross-examination, and similarly during the cross-examination of the defendant's fellow militia group members, and on appeal the exploitation of the defendant's objection to the courtroom flag was held to be so prejudicial, because it was calculated to arouse the jury's hostility to the defendant, that the conviction was overturned.

Dulisse v. Twardowski (ED Penn unpub 7/16/98). Suing federal judges, IRS agents and US Attorney for constructive treason, etc. because of fringed flag.

Haskins v. Wilbert (D Kan unpub 11/5/97). "Judge Wilbert's jurisdiction is in no way predicated on...the design of the US flag."

Murray v. State of Wyoming (10th Cir unpub 3/16/99) 176 F3d 489(t). "This argument is indisputably meritless."

Joyner v. Borough of Brooklyn (EDNY unpub 3/18/99).Claimed the presence of a fringed flag denied him a fair trial and constituted treason.

Vella v. McCammon (SD Tex 1987) 671 F.Supp 1128. "Not only without merit but also totally frivolous".

US v. Greenstreet (ND Tex 1996) 912 F.Supp 224. "Decor is not a determinant for jurisdiction."

Similar Cases

Huebner v. State (Tex.App unpub 5/8/97).
State v. Martz (Ohio App unpub 6/9/97).
Moeller v. D'Arrigo (ED Va 1995) 163 FRD 489.
R.Jones v. T.G. Watson (ND Ohio) unpub 9/29/97).
Lee v. Maass (1992) 111 Ore App 412, 826 P2d 97 revw denied 313 Ore 210, 830 P2d 596.
State v. Whalen (Ariz.App 1997) 192 Ariz 103, 961 P2d 1051 app.denied (Ariz Supm unpub 9/10/98).
US v. Warren (NDNY unpub 1/22/98).
J. Rogers v. Borough of Manhattan (a person) (SDNY unpub 10/1/98).
Bartrug v. Rubin (Ed Va 1997) 986 F.Supp 332.
Commonwealth v. Appel (1994) 438 Penn.Super. 214, 652 A2d 341.
State v. Svee (unpub 1/12/88) 143 Wisc.2d 892 (t), 421 NW2d 117(t).
Sadlier v. Payne (D Utah 1997) 974 F.Supp 1411.
Hancock v. State of Utah (10th Cir unpub 5/10/99) 176 F3d 488(t).
R.Miller v. USA (ND Ohio unpub 2/6/98).
R.Miller v. Gallagher (ND Ohio unpub 12/17/96).
US v. Dunkel (ND IL unpub 8/30/96) 78 AFTR2d 6529 rev. in part on other grounds (7th Cir unpub 7/1/97) 80 AFTR2d 5148, 97 USTC para 50565.

68 posted on 12/07/2004 8:46:11 PM PST by philetus (Zell Miller - One of the few)
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To: Denver Ditdat
"nobody by that name"

BUT... GOOGLE SEARCH: "Michael Rivero" (1,110 results)

69 posted on 12/07/2004 8:47:20 PM PST by weegee (WE FOUGHT ZOGBYISM November 2, 2004 - 60 Million Voters versus 60 Minutes - BUSH WINS!!!)
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To: Polybius

Sounds like a raving nutter.

70 posted on 12/07/2004 8:51:42 PM PST by Army Air Corps (Half a league, half a league rode the MSM into the valley of obscurity)
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To: philetus

Good post. True. It's all about procedure. Some people never learn.

71 posted on 12/07/2004 8:54:12 PM PST by Eastbound ("Neither a Scrooge nor a Patsy be")
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To: KC Burke; Army Air Corps; FreedomCalls; Ramius; Congressman Billybob; El Gato; DBrow; OKSooner; ...

>>The Internet contains many sites that claim that the fringe indicates martial law or that the Constitution does not apply in that area.<<

I, myself, heard a Reno, Nevada Federal judge say to a defendant,"The Constitution does not apply in this courtroom. Do not mention it again or I will hold you in contempt of court."

So, all of you who think the fringe is just decoration better do some research because evidently it does have a meaning in Federal courtrooms.

72 posted on 12/07/2004 8:57:25 PM PST by B4Ranch (((The lack of alcohol in my coffee forces me to see reality!)))
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To: ChefKeith

Well, the second time around for an "official" grassy knoll investigation they decided that nobody could have seen gunsmoke from the knoll because any shooter would have used smokeless powder, and there would have been no smoke, so there was no shooter there.

But that was decided in a room with a fringed flag, so Admiralty Law applies, and no naval muzzleloading cannon would have used smokeless powder (2230, 6000 grains), so Ruby was the shooter. Or Oswald's wife, or Johnson.

I once signed a skeptic into a DCM match so he could actually see smoke from smokeless powder. He got a 300, not bad for a first try. His second match he got 380, with an M1 Garand including 600 yds. He reread both "official reports".

But I drift from Michael and his many posts. Fringed flags are intended to be pretty.

73 posted on 12/07/2004 9:06:34 PM PST by DBrow
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To: Eastbound
Durn! Forgot to say something.

"The Title IV, USC 1 flag (described in E.O. 10834) is the official flag of our country. It is the civilian flag and has very precise specifications based on ratios relative to hoist and fly."

The President wears two hats. One, as the elected chief executive of our Constitutional Republic, and the other as Commander-in-Chief of the United States Armed Forces. In that the military and the federal government are subservient to We the People, the civilian flag should always be displayed in the superior position.

Someday I'd like to walk in the Oval Office and see that statement confirmed by seeing the Title IV USC I flag of our country displayed in the superior position to the federal/military flag. The former on the left of the President's desk, the latter on the right

74 posted on 12/07/2004 9:21:28 PM PST by Eastbound ("Neither a Scrooge nor a Patsy be")
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To: KC Burke; Army Air Corps; FreedomCalls; Ramius; Congressman Billybob; El Gato; DBrow; OKSooner; ...
United States District Courts

The United States district courts are the trial courts of the federal court system. Within limits set by Congress and the Constitution, the district courts have jurisdiction to hear nearly all categories of federal cases, including both civil and criminal matters. There are 94 federal judicial districts, including at least one district in each state, the District of Columbia and Puerto Rico. Three territories of the United States -- the Virgin Islands, Guam, and the Northern Mariana Islands -- have district courts that hear federal cases, including bankruptcy cases.

There are two special trial courts that have nationwide jurisdiction over certain types of cases. The Court of International Trade addresses cases involving international trade and customs issues. The United States Court of Federal Claims has jurisdiction over most claims for money damages against the United States, disputes over federal contracts, unlawful "takings" of private property by the federal government, and a variety of other claims against the United States.

The court case I am thinking about either was the Wayne Hage case or another one that had to do with BLM land taking.

75 posted on 12/07/2004 9:28:20 PM PST by B4Ranch (((The lack of alcohol in my coffee forces me to see reality!)))
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To: B4Ranch

76 posted on 12/07/2004 9:30:07 PM PST by B4Ranch (((The lack of alcohol in my coffee forces me to see reality!)))
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To: Pharmboy

Two words....venue and jurisdiction.

77 posted on 12/07/2004 9:31:45 PM PST by american spirit
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To: Pharmboy

It is a secret symbol used by the "Enlightened Ones" who have taken over the Federal Reserve and are slowly turning all money production to the "U.S. Treasury" which these EO's have taken over during the Klinton Admin. What they intend to do is back our New Colored Money by 50% Gold, thus stabilizing the Almighty U.S. Dollar. With that stability, they will entice everyone around the world to invest in the U.S. Dollar, and give up their own currency which will lead to World Domination by these Alien Enlightened Ones who feel this is the best way to force mankind into willfull slavery, thinking that these Enlightened Ones came to save the World from total anhilation. Of course, this is exactly what they wanted "Earthlings" to believe. They will have conquered mankind without firing a shot. Their ultimate goal is of course slavery in every part of the Universe that they have set up colonies, so the less people killed, the more slaves they have for their alien colonies. They will expose their true physical appearance when the Earth is safely in their hands. They came from the 12th Planet which circles the Sun in a very elongated ellipse, making it's complete revolution of the Sun every 40,000 years, and will come very close to Earth in the near future, and so their task to take over the Earth is of the highest priority. They have exponentially stepped up their takeover of world governments through the individual country's treasury depts. They call themselves the Nephilim, and are similar in appearance to what mankind calls Angels except they do not have halos over their heads, but they do have angelic wings or so it is supposed.
There is no use getting anxious about what is happening. It cannot be thwarted in any way. They are far, far superior in intelligence and technology than mere mortal man. How do I know about this..............because I are one. BWAHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!

78 posted on 12/07/2004 9:39:08 PM PST by Iam1ru1-2
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To: Iam1ru1-2

I knew it all along...;-)

79 posted on 12/07/2004 9:43:03 PM PST by Army Air Corps (Half a league, half a league rode the MSM into the valley of obscurity)
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To: american spirit
Admiralty law in the United States developed from the British admiralty courts present in most of the American colonies. These courts functioned separately from courts of law and equity. With the Judiciary Act, though, Congress placed admiralty under the jurisdiction of the federal district courts. Although admiralty shares much in common with the civil law, it is separate from it. Common law does not act as binding precedent on admiralty courts, but it and other law may be used when no law on point is available.


Just as the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure placed law and equity under the same jurisdiction in 1938, the 1966 rules subsumed admiralty. Nonetheless, the Supplemental Admiralty Rules take precedence over the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure in the event of conflict between the two.

80 posted on 12/07/2004 9:43:16 PM PST by B4Ranch (((The lack of alcohol in my coffee forces me to see reality!)))
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