City OKs red-light cameras (Denton, Texas)

Denton Wretched Chronicle ^ | 12-10-4 | Cliff Despres

[Redbob]

Red-light runners beware: Cameras soon will be watching in Denton.

The City Council this week approved a new ordinance for the installation of cameras on some streets to photograph cars that run red lights. The measure, similar to ones in Garland, Frisco, Richardson and Plano, aims to prevent accidents.

City officials will search for a vendor early next year to install and operate the system, and cameras will be placed at yet-to-be-chosen intersections by the end of 2005.

Violators will be mailed $75 tickets. For people with three or more violations, the ticket is $150.

"Hopefully the cameras will cut down on the number of people going through red lights, and cut down on the accidents we’ve had," said City Council member Jack Thomson.

Advocates for camera-based red-light enforcement note studies in other states that show up to a 60 percent reduction in red-light running accidents, but critics say the cameras intrude on privacy and are simply a revenue-generating measure.

No residents voiced opinions on the camera system at a City Council meeting this week.

Council members say the pros outweigh the cons.

Denton had 213 accidents involving red-light runners between 2002 and 2004 and police issued 2,354 citations for violations in that span, city statistics show. Cameras could reduce those numbers, said council member Bob Montgomery.

"It’s a reasonable way to enforce traffic rules that’s not too Big Brother," Montgomery said.

Here’s how the automated camera system would work:

With street signs warning drivers that an intersection is "photo-enforced," a pole-mounted camera would snap pictures of vehicles that run red lights.

A citation and photo of the violation would be mailed to the vehicle’s owner. Drivers can either pay the ticket or appeal to a city-appointed hearing officer. A car owner can sign an affidavit that someone else was driving the car, and that person then would be liable.

The citation is civil, not criminal, so it wouldn’t show up on a person’s driving record or affect car insurance rates, said Denton police Lt. Scott Fletcher.

"The goal is to eliminate violations and prevent accidents," Fletcher said.

While several attempts to pass laws that allow red-light cameras failed in the Texas Legislature in recent years because of privacy issues, a recent amendment allows cities to issue civil penalties based on camera-observed violations.

Garland used that rule to set up the first camera system in the North Texas area in September 2003.

It charges $75 per red-light violation caught on camera at four different intersections in the city. The city has recorded 29,000-plus violations.

Garland’s program prompted Frisco, Richardson, Plano and now Denton to advance plans for cameras at city intersections.

In Denton, finding locations to install cameras might be a problem because the Texas Department of Transportation doesn’t allow cameras at intersections on state-controlled roads. The majority of the city’s 101 traffic signals are on state roads.

So police identified the intersections of Eagle Drive and Carroll Boulevard, Bell Avenue and Hickory Street, and Bell and McKinney Street as potential camera sites.

More research on locations will be done before installing cameras, Fletcher said.

Each camera costs about $6,000, and the program would pay for itself from there, Fletcher said. If the program generates revenue, the money would go into a public safety fund dedicated to traffic improvements.

Overall, city officials laud the plan’s potential to bolster safety because cameras would monitor intersections 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

"People will be a lot more aware," Thomson said. "It will be a big deterrent."

HOW THE STOPLIGHT CAMERAS WILL WORK

By the end of 2005, the city expects to install cameras to snap photos of red-light runners.

Here’s how it’d work:

A camera mounted at an intersection activates when a light turns red

The cameras takes a picture of a car that enters on red

A second picture is taken of the car’s license plate as it goes through

Embedded on the photo is the date, time, intersection, car speed, length of the light’s yellow interval and the length of time the light had been red at the time of the photograph.

If police verify a violation, a violator would be mailed a $75 ticket with:

An explanation of the violation

An 8-inch-by-10-inch photo of the vehicle in intersection

Tips for handling tickets and how to pay

A process to contest the violation

Third and subsequent violations would be $150.

[Redbob]

"Well, I read through it a second time, and the only fact in the story that I could find which could remotely support your claim is that a lot of the heavy traffic is on state roads and the cameras cannot be installed on them."

Well, read it ONE more time, and try to find a reference to research showing that accidents are caused in this town by red-light runners, or that the "research" being done to find locations for the cameras has anything whatsoever to do with safety or accident statistics.

I apologize for the harsh tone of my previous posts, but I have scant patience for people, such as those in our city, who base their decision on what "everybody knows" about a supposed problem.

In this case, it's clear that the red-light cameras will be located based on one consideration only:
where will the State allow Denton to install them.

[the invisib1e hand]

it seems that, like weeds and disease, if you don't actively and purposely resist the encroachment of government into every nook and cranny of your life, it will go there of its own instinct.

So, does anyone bother to resist?

[the invisib1e hand]

I suspect a lot of people despise those f*#@ing selfish b*st*rd red-light runners, and think it's high time something was done to kick them in their arses (and wallets). If it also just happens to generate revenue for traffic enforcement, so be it.

I don't mean to sound uncharitable, but this mindset is not fit for self government. Someone who thinks with a collectivist, authoritarian mindset like this belongs in a nanny state.

Well, then, there are plenty of those you can go to, but don't waste your breath endorsing one here.

[FreedomCalls]

Watch the time the light stays yellow drop dramatically. That is the way most cities make money off this. If a light previously stayed yellow for 6 seconds, after they install the camera the time will drop to 2 seconds so they can photograph you in the intersection with the red light on before you have time to react.

[from occupied ga]

No residents voiced opinions on the camera system at a City Council meeting this week.

No comments smells. I find it hard to believe that no residents had any opinions one way or the other. Hmm I wonder if this were an agenda item added at the last minute. That how city governments usually work it at "public" meeting when they want to do something to sh!t on the public.

, they'll reduce the length of time a light is yellow to almost nonexistance

You betcha.

[mysterio]

It's sad that so many people like you enable the government to do whatever it wants unchecked. It's even sadder that you do not think about the consequences of government micromanaging the lives of citizens in the name of "safety."

[newgeezer]

Well, read it ONE more time, and try to find a reference to research showing that accidents are caused in this town by red-light runners

"Denton had 213 accidents involving red-light runners between 2002 and 2004 and police issued 2,354 citations for violations in that span, city statistics show."

or that the "research" being done to find locations for the cameras has anything whatsoever to do with safety or accident statistics.

Granted, there's no mention of that in the story. So, it leaves open the possibility that your claim is correct. If you have knowledge of their locating the cameras without any consideration for where they'll be effective in reducing accidents, I'm sure you'll forgive me for being unfamiliar with those facts that don't appear in the story.

[newgeezer]

It's sad that so many people like you enable the government to do whatever it wants unchecked.

Oh, puh-leeze. If it can be demonstrated that this system is fail-safe, the only difference between this and putting a cop at the intersections 24x7 to nab red-light runners is the cost (also, cops don't take pictures and can make mistakes, e.g. was that light really red before you entered the intersection?).

It's even sadder that you do not think about the consequences of government micromanaging the lives of citizens in the name of "safety."

Look, I'm as anti-nanny-gov't and as pro-Amendments IV and VI as anyone else. If you equate simple enforcement of even the most fundamental of traffic laws with "micromanaging the lives of citizens," ...

[Redbob]

"I don't mean to sound uncharitable, but this mindset is not fit for self government. Someone who thinks with a collectivist, authoritarian mindset like this belongs in a nanny state."

You're cruel.

But fair!

[Redbob]

"Look, I'm as anti-nanny-gov't and as pro-Amendments IV and VI as anyone else."

THAT remains to be proven!

[newgeezer]

My post #28 is for you, too.

[Redbob]

But the vast majority of the busy intersections in this town are on state roads where red-light cameras are prohibited by state law. That leaves the City of Denton with the problem of finding intersections of purely city streets. The lightly-traveled intersections. For which they don'teven begin to suggest there's an accident probelm. But go ahead - you're looking for Big Brother to take carte of you, you'll prolly like it here.

[newgeezer]

you're looking for Big Brother to take carte of you

Not at all. I'd much rather have bazookas mounted on my front fenders and take out the SOBs myself. Matter of fact, a couple evenings ago, it's a good thing I wasn't driving an old, beat up pickup truck. I might have sacrificed it to teach one of those red-light runners a lesson in common courtesy.

Seems to me that, since the "vast majority of the busy intersections in this town are on state roads," you Dentonites ceded any hope of exercising local control a long time ago. You're living under the thumb of people in Austin. Was it so that the state will maintain your busiest streets for you? Regardless, the citizens of Denton are powerless to do this if they wanted to. You have to get permission from the great state of Texas.

Talk about living under the care of Big Brother...

[Maringa]

One thing sticks in my mind as I have driven through Denton. If you go through town on US 380, you will be stopped at every instersection through what seems to be a maze of unsynchronized stop lights....for what seems like 20 or 30 lights. I can see how this can be a revenue generator situation....I hate driving through downtown Denton.

[zeugma]

Think of the improvement in citizen marksmanship though, now that the city is kind enough to provide all these free targets.

I wish! Cameras are everywhere these days. I hear that in jolly olde England, folks have taken to firebombing the things. I hope that starts happening here.

[weegee]

If it can be demonstrated that this system is fail-safe...

The Wonderlful Land of IF.

Toll-Free Hassle - When good EZ TAGs go bad (Automated traffic ticket camera failures)

Photo Traffic Light Citations

I was interested in any FReepers who have had personal experience with photo traffic citations. Especially in CA and for supposedly running a red light. I received a citation in the mail. They claim I ran the red light while making a "right-on-red."

[Semaphore Heathcliffe]

I have a friend who has been photo ticketed with a red light cam. The yellow at the intersection is outrageously short; there's barely time for a car to cross the entire intersection before red, even if you're entering right at the change to yellow. Total revenue trap.

[weegee]

You should be able to face your accuser in court. You cannot do this with an automated ticketing system.

I don't mind cameras being used to back up the evidence of the crime but I want an officer stationed with that camera citing the driver at the time of the offense.

[newgeezer]

Toll-Free Hassle - When good EZ TAGs go bad (Automated traffic ticket camera failures)

Oops, somebody goofed; there's an error in the process. Fix it (match plate numbers to cars prior to mailing?) and move on. Unfortunately for the man in the story, it's taken way too long for the bureaucrats to get a clue.

Photo Traffic Light Citations

Interesting, and inconclusive. I'd be curious to know how many other drivers have reported the same experience (even at the same intersection). Did she really stop? Surely these things generate more than enough revenue to provide for periodic human monitoring to ensure their accuracy.

At any rate, thanks for the input. That's exactly what these municipalities need to hear when this stuff comes up for debate, "lessons learned" from others who've been there and done that and, "Tell me, Mr. Red-Light Camera System Vendor, how I can be certain this mistake won't happen here, with your system."

[Redbob]

" hate driving through downtown Denton."

Imagine what it's like to LIVE around here!

We'll drive miles out of our way on the perimeter road to avoid ever setting a wheel into that quagmire!