Posted on 12/10/2004 7:08:12 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo
NEW YORK -- A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed his mind. He now believes in God -- more or less -- based on scientific evidence, and says so on a video released Thursday.
At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England.
(Excerpt) Read more at nynewsday.com ...
The Father and the Son agreed on this course of action before the foundation of the world. Jesus was killed for you and I, that we might escape the terrible penalty of our own disobedience and enjoy an eternity with Him in Heaven.
God is holy and righteous, and sin is not permitted in His presence. That is why those who reject the gift of Jesus Christ's salvation cannot be permitted into Heaven. Without the covering provided by the only begotten Son of God, we stand naked and alone in the presence of Almighty God and must plead our case the merits. Jesus Christ of Nazareth will stand in the gap for those who have sought His forgiveness and have accepted Him as their Lord and Savior. Without Jesus, we have only ourselves and our own filthiness to present to God.
So he created living, feeling beings whose default position is eternal Hell, knowing full well the vast majority would end up there.
Can you square that with an infinitely loving and merciful Father?
That is why those who reject the gift of Jesus Christ's salvation cannot be permitted into Heaven.
So what about the child victims of the Khmer and the eternal separation from their unsaved parents. Do you think they might want to know where their mom and dad are? It would be interesting to hear what they have to say to the saved Khmer butchers.
Without the covering provided by the only begotten Son of God, we stand naked and alone in the presence of Almighty God and must plead our case the merits. Jesus Christ of Nazareth will stand in the gap for those who have sought His forgiveness and have accepted Him as their Lord and Savior. Without Jesus, we have only ourselves and our own filthiness to present to God.
What happened to those who died before the Gospels? Are they in Hell forever?
That is not what God's Word says. If you read the creation account in Genesis, you will see what God says about His creation and man's position in that creation. The pivotal event for mankind is commonly referred to as 'The Fall'.
Can you square that with an infinitely loving and merciful Father?
We all deserve Hell because of our sin. It is only by His magnificent grace and love that God has provided a way to Him through His Son, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. As God, He was under no obligation to provide a way of salvation, but it was His plan all along. Praise His name forever!
So what about the child victims of the Khmer and the eternal separation from their unsaved parents. Do you think they might want to know where their mom and dad are? It would be interesting to hear what they have to say to the saved Khmer butchers.
As to children, Jesus Christ of Nazareth had a special place in his heart for small children. Even though scripture makes it abundantly clear that all men are born into sin, it is not clear about the point at which a child is held accountable for its sin. On a personal note, my wife and I have lost three babies due to miscarriage and we fully expect to see them in heaven. As to exact scriptural proof, I have none to offer. I am of the opinion that there is an 'age of accountability' at which point a child becomes responsible for its choices. When this 'age of accountability' occurs is likely different for every individual depending on life experience.
As to the unrepentent who will face God's judgement alone, without Jesus Christ to defend them, the Word of God promises degrees of reward in Heaven and degress of punishment in Hell.
Romans 2:5-11 - But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.
God will not be mocked and He will have the final say. His justice is perfect and holy and no one will be able to speak a true word against His proclamations.
At the beginning of time, before any of us were born, the names of those who were to be saved were written in the book of the lamb. Why some names were written and others omitted is up to God, seeing that its his book. I'm sorry if you don't like that. I assume if it were you, you would save everyone and seeing that God isn't going to save all, only some you have a problem with that and reject him because of that. Apparently God doesn't care what you think because he made the list before you could be consulted.
There are three groups of people. There are those who have been explained the gospel and who have accepted it, those who have been explained the gospel and have rejected it and finally those who never had the gospel explained to them. Those who had it explained and rejected it are surely not saved. It isn't clear by scripture what happens to those who never had it explained. Some believe that they will be given a chance at the moments of death. This is so because scripture makes it clear that those who are unaware of scripture have less accountability than others.
I thought it was human free will in accepting or rejecting Christ that determined Heaven or Hell.
Not entirely. Scripture is clear about the elect, and that God has written our names in the book of life before we were born. In other words, he knew what we would do before he made us. Some theologians believe that those who never had the gospel preached to them would have rejected it anyways.
It seems you don't care for the idea of eternal Hell either.
No, my definition of hell is to be without God. You and the people you describe would prefer to be apart from God.
Does it bother you that 2 million Khmer victims will go to Hell but some of their murderers will go to Heaven?
A little because I'm not the perfect judge who designed the world. Again, God gave some of us the gift of eternal life and didn't give it to others. But just because I might disagree with him doesn't make him less than God.
That is what Scripture says will happen, correct?
Absolutely for folks like you who know the gospel. I'm not so sure about those who did not hear it.
And what about the Cambodian children? Will they go to Hell too, or do they go to Heaven while their parents are in Hell forever?
Let me make this clear. You are not worthy for God. Period. No discussion. You can drag any poor soul into this conversation and no matter how innocent you think they are or how wronged you think they are, there is not one of us that is acceptable for God. No matter what you do, no matter what good works you do you are no better in God's eyes than any mass murderer you want to drag into this conversation.
Does that inner voice that tells you right from wrong tell you this is loving and merciful?
All of us are condemned to death. God forgives certain death sentences for those who ask him to. That is mercy in my book. All you need to do is ask him to have mercy on you and accept Jesus as you savior and you will be saved. Simple. I do however know that unlike those who are innocent of the knowledge about the gospel, you will go to hell unless you stop rejecting him.
That is not what God's Word says. If you read the creation account in Genesis, you will see what God says about His creation and man's position in that creation. The pivotal event for mankind is commonly referred to as 'The Fall'
God did not know what choice Adam would make? If He's all knowing, he had to know the vast majority of his chidren would suffer in Hell forever, or am I missing something?
As to children, Jesus Christ of Nazareth had a special place in his heart for small children. Even though scripture makes it abundantly clear that all men are born into sin, it is not clear about the point at which a child is held accountable for its sin. As to exact scriptural proof, I have none to offer. I am of the opinion that there is an 'age of accountability' at which point a child becomes responsible for its choices. When this 'age of accountability' occurs is likely different for every individual depending on life experience.
But you do have scriptural proof which says those who die unsaved go to Hell forever. It does not provide an exemption based on age that I'm aware of.
Unless there is scriptural proof of an age exemption, would it be mocking God to say you believe there is an exemption? Remember, the penalties for errant belief are pretty stiff.
Romans 2:5-11 - But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.
That seems to say we are saved by deeds, including Jews. I thought Scripture gave no hope to Jews who do not become Christians.
Thank you for the civil discussion. Goodnight. Best Regards, O.C.
A little because I'm not the perfect judge who designed the world. Again, God gave some of us the gift of eternal life and didn't give it to others. But just because I might disagree with him doesn't make him less than God.
Is it a sin to disagree with God?
That is what Scripture says will happen, correct [unsaved go to Hell]?
Absolutely for folks like you who know the gospel. I'm not so sure about those who did not hear it.
How can you not be sure? Scripture says you are born into sin and only acceptance of Christ will keep you out of Hell. Where is the scriptural exception for those who did not hear it?
Let me make this clear. You are not worthy for God. Period. No discussion. You can drag any poor soul into this conversation and no matter how innocent you think they are or how wronged you think they are, there is not one of us that is acceptable for God. No matter what you do, no matter what good works you do you are no better in God's eyes than any mass murderer you want to drag into this conversation.
Fair enough.
All of us are condemned to death. God forgives certain death sentences for those who ask him to. That is mercy in my book.
All you need to do is ask him to have mercy on you and accept Jesus as you savior and you will be saved. Simple. I do however know that unlike those who are innocent of the knowledge about the gospel, you will go to hell unless you stop rejecting him.
Can you disagree with God without rejecting Him?
I think we did the impossible-- a debate on Free Republic about Hell, but with no flames:)
Jesus said they attacked Him, "because He testified that their works were evil." People go to hell for one reason (sin). Rather than accept the only answer to their sin problem, they choose to remain in sin and as a result make hell their eternal home. They inherited the sin nature as a result of father Adam's sin. Now, they refuse to accept the antedote (Jesus Christ, the second Adam), who came to redeem them. They now hate anything that exposes their sin!
Oriental? Cosmic Saddam Hussein? Obviously, this guy doesn't know the God of the bible.
"Carrier assured atheists that Flew accepts only a "minimal God" and believes in no afterlife."
Assurance? Atheists need assurance that Flew still doesn't believe in an afterlife? Weird.
Can non-Christians go to Heaven? Michael A. Covington – Beech Haven Baptist Church – November 28, 1999 1. Some preliminaries
a. No matter what provision God has made for people who never hear the Gospel, you are not one of them. (If you’re looking for an excuse, look somewhere else!)
b. Jesus clearly tells us to spread the Gospel. If we adopt beliefs that imply that evangelism is unnecessary, we’ve made a mistake somewhere.
c. Hell is not the punishment for failing to accept Christ as Saviour. It is the punishment for sins you committed long before you heard of Christ.
d. God does not owe anyone salvation. It is an undeserved gift that he can give, or refrain from giving, as He wishes.
2. How does anybody go to Heaven?
a. Because of our sins, we are separated from God and doomed to spend eternity separated from Him. This is the condition of all human beings, not just some of them.
b. To get to Heaven (i.e., to enjoy eternity with God), we need our sins forgiven.
c. It’s not enough for God just to want to forgive us; something objective had to be done to cancel our sins.
d. We must accept salvation; it is not applied to us automatically. We return to God voluntarily.
e. We get to Heaven by the merits of Jesus Christ, not by our own good works.
3. Which non-Christians go to Heaven, if any? Situations to consider:
a. Universalism: God loves everybody and saves everybody, whether they cooperate with Him or not.
Objection 1: Then why evangelize?
Objection 2: If God gave people the freedom to reject Him, why would he take it away again? If He planned to take it away, it isn’t really freedom.
b. People who cannot hear or respond to the Gospel.
0. Those who knew God but died in Old Testament times.
1. Those who die as infants or are severely mentally deficient.
2. Those to whom the Gospel is never preached, or who, due to prior prejudice or misinformation, are unable to understand it when they hear it.
3. Those who live a life of good works while practicing some other religion (or none).
Remember that good works do not save you. Enough said. But see the next case:
4. Those who seek God’s mercy while practicing some other religion (or none).
This is the interesting case.
Two clear Biblical teachings:
1. Salvation is made possible by the death of Christ on the cross. Apart from Christ and what he did, there is no salvation. (Acts 4:12, John 14:6; Lk 10:22)
2. Non-Christians can, at least in principle, perceive God’s righteousness and their need for His mercy. (Romans 1:18-20, 2:14-16; Acts 17:28)
Whatever we conclude will need to be faithful to both of these teachings.
My opinion is the following (and you are welcome to disagree):
a. It is possible for a non-Christian to realize his need for God’s mercy and seek it.
(Note: Although I think this is possible, I do not think it happens routinely. Missionaries report finding occasional cases of it.)
b. In my opinion, God will not turn away people who seek His mercy, even if their understanding of Him is vague and they lack historical knowledge of Christ. (Some of God’s people in the Old Testament knew little about Him and His works; one example appears to be Melchisedek.)
c. We should never rely on Christ to save people who have not heard the Gospel. We have our marching orders.
d. The Bible gives no statistics on how many people go to Hell. It does, however, clearly teach that it is possible to do so, and that evangelism is urgently needed.
I run as close to universalism as I can – which is not very close, because I’m constrained by the Bible.
Romans 1:
20For from the creation of the world the invisible things of Him are clearly seen, being understood through the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.
Romans 2:
14For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, they, not having the law, are a law unto themselves,
15which shows the work of the law written in their hearts,their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts between accusing and excusing one another.)
16Thus will it be on the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my Gospel.
Can you disagree and still love God with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul ? I sure think so. Has anyone in the bible disagreed with God ? Just about everyone i can think of. Even Jesus asked God to have the cup removed.
Can you disagree with God without rejecting Him?
I can. Not sure if others can. Heck, my wife and I disagree with each other plenty and we don't reject each other.
However, if you disagree with God's choice about who goes to heaven and then use that as an excuse to reject his gift of salvation you are rejecting his offer and that rejection will be honored by him. As it should be. You are in fact saying that the sacrifice and suffering of his son was not needed.
This would be like using a disagreement I had with my wife as an excuse to cheat on her.
The Bible says little or nothing, but most Protestants believe that such people are not fully accountable for sin, and hence are not separated from God in the first place.
IOW, there is no scriptural basis for such a belief. Wishful thinking?
Catholics believe that they have inherited sin from Adam and will spend eternity in a state called limbo ("the edge"), where they lack the joys of Heaven but are not punished for sin.
Looks like they don't see an out for babies. At least they're not tortured forever.
2. Those to whom the Gospel is never preached, or who, due to prior prejudice or misinformation, are unable to understand it when they hear it.
Be careful what you say about this case.
What is this, how to talk to a Universalist?
My opinion is the following (and you are welcome to disagree):
a. It is possible for a non-Christian to realize his need for God's mercy and seek it.
Again, he can't find it in scripture. But scripture clearly says you are bound for Hell from the beginning and ONLY free will acceptance keeps you out.
b. In my opinion, God will not turn away people who seek His mercy, even if their understanding of Him is vague and they lack historical knowledge of Christ.
By his own admission, he has no scriptural basis for saying that. Matter of fact, it goes against the claim that all humans are bound for Hell unless they have accepted Christ.
You can't have it both ways.
Ken God can save who he wants whether you agree with him or not. Would you rather he pick 8 people and drown the rest ? Would that be more fair in your eyes ?
You need a savior, like it or not. You know the gospel message and are therefore fully accountable, like it or not. You have rejected that message and like it or not, the bible is very clear about those who reject the message.
If you hear wavering from me and others about those who do not hear the message its because the bible is not clear about the issue and there are many cases in old testament law where a person is not accountable when an act is done in ignorance. However, whether God condemns those who never hear or not, still doesn;t make him less than God or make his revealed plan false.
God never checked with others in Noah's time. He never cleared his plan with the residents of Saddam and Gomorrah. He never cleared his plan with you and that seems to make you really angry about it. Why do you reject him ?
Joh 13:18 "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'
Who are the chosen? Very simply they are the "us" that Paul refers to in the verse surrounding this one. Rom 8:31,32"If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all-- how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things?" Rom 8:33,34 "Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died-- more than that, who was raised to life-- is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?"
The elect is a category of people - the believers in Christ. Everyone in this category is the "elect" of whom Paul speaks. That is what the context indicates. It is not a mysterious or unknown group. Peter also speaks who they are, saying: "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God." 1Pe 2:9 The chosen are the "you" he is addressing. And the apostle John even speaks to individuals, knowing their "elect" status - 2Jo 1:1 "To the chosen lady and her children" As does Paul, Ro 16:13 "Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord."
So on a categorical basis, we can view "election" as an elevator named "believers in Christ" predestined to go up. But on an individual basis we can view it as God foreknowing who would chose to get on the elevator and therefore being chosen according to God's foreknowledge.
The difference between categorical and individual election is that for individual election one can speak of being "elect" but not yet saved.
Since once-elect, always elect, and since the elect are the believers - the redeemed - the saved - the one's born of God, therefore, once a person enters into such a category, they will remain and go on to glory. And this is in accordance with God's foreknowledge. Predestination implies Eternal Security. Ro 8:29 "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers."
Eph 1:11-13 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit."
Predestination for salvation is only spoken of in the context of faith in Christ. What I mean is that Biblical predestination cannot be used as a basis to support the idea that some are predestined to be saved apart from faith in Christ - like through infant baptism. Notice also the order of salvation presented here.
This verse refers to the unbeliever's condemnation and murder of Christ. How was God involved in this process. Was he simply a puppet master who murdered Christ through his puppet like control of the unbelievers?
Indeed that popular Calvinist reformer, Zwingli views God as the cause of all human sin. Even those of a Reformed Theology note this: "Zwingli's understanding of predestination as indistinguishable from providence, logically inclines him to the conclusion that God is the cause of human sin." Though Calvin himself objected to this line of reasoning saying, "Our adversaries load us with illiberal and disgraceful calumny, when they cast it in our teeth that we make God the author of sin, by maintaining that his will is the cause of all things that are done." And also saying, "removing as I do from God all the proximate cause of the act in the Fall of man, I thereby remove from him also all the blame of the act leaving man alone under the sin and the guilt" But much of his theology simply doesn't hold to this idea, such as the idea of people being reckoned guilty even before they commit any act of sin.If you take into account God's foreknowledge of how people would respond to circumstances, then much of the way which God brought about this sacrifice of atonement makes sense. God wanted an event to occur. Yet he didn't force it outright in puppet like fashion, but from his foreknowledge fashioned a plan using his counsel (which is the word "will" here). This is not unlike people who have knowledge of how people react to things and manipulate the circumstances so as to bring out a desired result. But of course God having perfect knowledge eliminates all possibility of failure, while at the same time not forcing people to kill Christ.
Look at Jesus' behavior in the gospels. He behaved in such a way, stepping on the pride of the religious leaders, that it was inevitable that he would be crucified. He need not control the outcome as if a puppet master. Thus God is innocent of the blood of Christ. He simply placed him, as a willing sacrifice, in circumstances that would lead to his death, being brought about by sinners who were not directly being controlled by God.
You need a savior, like it or not. You know the gospel message and are therefore fully accountable, like it or not. You have rejected that message and like it or not, the bible is very clear about those who reject the message.
Your belief says that and you have a right to exercise that belief. You can't prove your assertion and I can't disprove it. We'll have to disagree.
God never checked with others in Noah's time. He never cleared his plan with the residents of Saddam and Gomorrah. He never cleared his plan with you and that seems to make you really angry about it.
I could just as easily say the same about you: I'm not buying your view and that seems to make you really angry. So now what?
Why do you reject him ?
I don't believe that an infinitely loving Father would create living, feeling creatures knowing full well most of them would go to Hell forever.
I think Scripture has that part wrong. If it is really important to you to convince me otherwise, show me the proof.
Do you believe there is no God because if there was he would have to conform to your point of view of what he would be like ? Or do you simply reject the entire idea of a God and find it fun to try and point out what you think are inconsistencies about Christianity ? Or do you think God exists but would not have any requirements regarding heaven and all are welcome ? Or something else entirely ?
You are not making your position clear and therefore I do not know where to start with your objections.
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