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Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
NY Newsday ^ | 12/9/04 | RICHARD N. OSTLING

Posted on 12/10/2004 7:08:12 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo

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To: Alamo-Girl; Eastbound; marron; Taliesan; StJacques; ckilmer; escapefromboston; freeagle; ...
...it appears to me that Mr. Flew was sensitive to an intellectual argument for God. But that is not the same as the Christian witness spoken of in so very many passages throughout Scripture.... IMHO, it is rarely successful when a Christian beats an unbeliever over the head with a five pound Bible....

Well said, Alamo-Girl!

151 posted on 12/10/2004 8:52:37 AM PST by betty boop
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To: pnome

Dear Sir:

Please consider who Jesus was reported to be, and his
activities on this earth as reported by the early documents.
People do have a desire to know the final ultimate truth
about their existence and their destination. When one
approachs the obvious end of their physical existence, these
questions loom LARGE.
If you really want to know who God is, take a look at
Christ. He did tell his followers, that if they see Him
they also see the Father...You said, there is no evidence
for his resurrection, but at least consider this questions,

"What would cause his scattered,defeated, and dejected followers
to go around their world, and further, and to testify to the resurrection of Christ,
and many of them accept death rather than recant?"

Could it have been mass hysteria, or a purposefully drawn up
hoax, or mendacity, or lunacy, or can an all powerful
God really raise the dead?

Thank you for your consideraton.


152 posted on 12/10/2004 8:53:03 AM PST by Getready ((...Fear not ...))
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To: pnome

"At any rate, you can't deny that Christians are a very vocal, or rather certain Christian groups are very vocal in lobbing the govenrment to enforce thier beliefs on others."

So what? The NAACP, Mothers against Drunk Drivers and the Sierra Club also want to impose their beliefs on others.
And they succeed.

Do you *really* think we should discriminate against Christians and not let them participate in politics like the rest of America?

"That causes people to stereotype against Christians."

um, no, what causes people to stereotype others is hostility, bigotry, sloppy thinking and bad manners.


153 posted on 12/10/2004 8:53:07 AM PST by WOSG (Liberating Iraq - http://freedomstruth.blogspot.com)
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To: Allan

Originally from Saskabush, but spent more than a decade in Van. Beautiful plumage, eh?

Torture? Try watching the self-promoting, ego-driven, 48 minutes of hell they call basketball. If it was a team sport it might be palatable...might be. That's torture.

Novosibirsk is cold and north. Have a brother-in-law who lived with his family for three years in Siberia recently. Sort of like Saskatchewan except not as warm.


154 posted on 12/10/2004 8:54:55 AM PST by ColoCdn (Neco eos omnes, Deus suos agnoset)
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To: pnome

"if my "pursuit of happiness" is different than yours, you shouldn't be forcing me to pursue happiness in the same way you do. "

So you are against minimum wage laws, discrimation laws and drunk driving laws, correct?

"That IS against the constitution."

Where are the above forbidden in the constitution?

"Drinking wine vs. smoking pot."

Strangling cats vs. riding in a rodeo.


155 posted on 12/10/2004 8:55:47 AM PST by WOSG (Liberating Iraq - http://freedomstruth.blogspot.com)
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To: pnome
At any rate, you can't deny that Christians are a very vocal, or rather certain Christian groups are very vocal in lobbing the govenrment to enforce thier beliefs on others.

I can deny that they are anymore guilty than other groups.

Labor unions
Businesses
Farmers
Jews
Muslims
Legalization advocates
Gun control advocates
Gun rights people
ETC,ETC.

That causes people to stereotype against Christians.

There do so in error.

156 posted on 12/10/2004 8:56:03 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: Getready

"What would cause his scattered,defeated, and dejected followers
to go around their world, and further, and to testify to the resurrection of Christ,
and many of them accept death rather than recant?"

Because that is what they truely believed. Why would a person strap dynamite to themselves and detonate in a pizza shop? Blind Faith.


157 posted on 12/10/2004 8:56:18 AM PST by pnome
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To: pnome
Extraordinary claims, require extraordinary proof.

I disagree.

BTW, no one is saying you must believe. No gun is to your head. You deny at your own risk.

You didn't answer the important question I asked.

158 posted on 12/10/2004 8:58:11 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop
rarely successful when a Christian beats an unbeliever over the head with a five pound Bible

I agree....I have far more success with my 12 pounder. I say, if you're gonna knock sense into 'em, use the right tool!

Proud owner of the 12 pound NAHV Bible (New American HAMMER Version)!

159 posted on 12/10/2004 8:58:12 AM PST by xzins (Retired Army and Proud of It!)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
Oh no!

Those poor atheists. Another one abandons their godless and ridiculous hypothesis of evolution.
160 posted on 12/10/2004 8:59:14 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: WOSG
I'm not arguing in favor of the NAACP or any other group. I am mearly saying that their are very vocal Christian groups who wish to impose on me their morality. Force me to act a certain way.

If the NAACP wants to do something similar I'd be arguing against them too. The original question was, why is Jesus (and Christians) often attacked. My answer is because there is an impression out there that Christians are trying to dictate their moral views on others by FORCE.
161 posted on 12/10/2004 8:59:30 AM PST by pnome
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To: WOSG
So you are against minimum wage laws, discrimation laws and drunk driving laws, correct?

The last one is a non fit.

162 posted on 12/10/2004 9:00:39 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: pnome
Force me to act a certain way.

Absent laws, which are force, what is the "certain" way you speak of?

163 posted on 12/10/2004 9:01:53 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: WOSG

"So you are against minimum wage laws, discrimation laws and drunk driving laws, correct? "

I AM against minimum wage laws. Even some discrimination laws.

However, drunk driving laws are different. they are based on my inalianable right to life. When you drive drunk, you put others right to life at great risk. Not so when I smoke pot in my home.


164 posted on 12/10/2004 9:02:03 AM PST by pnome
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To: mike182d

Peter Singer would only admit a belief in a god if he thought he could prove you could abort it or have sex with it.


165 posted on 12/10/2004 9:02:12 AM PST by Caesar Soze
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To: Protagoras

"Absent laws, which are force, what is the "certain" way you speak of?"

The way of a good Christian I suppose.


166 posted on 12/10/2004 9:03:10 AM PST by pnome
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To: joesnuffy
I believe the God of the Christian faith is a loving God who wishes for all his children to be part of his Kingdom.

I for one don't have the wisdom to understand how God will judge those who don't accept Christ as there justification for forgiveness. A loving God will give the sinner every chance to repent and be forgiven; whether that must occur before our death is not clear to me. God may very well give you up until the moment of judgment to ask for forgiveness and embrace Christ's Salvation. I just don't know.

My guess is that when we come to be with God, we may very well surprised by who see. Every sin is forgivable in God's eyes; that is the gift we receive through Christ.
167 posted on 12/10/2004 9:03:40 AM PST by PigRigger (Send donations to http://www.AdoptAPlatoon.org)
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To: pnome
My answer is because there is an impression out there that Christians are trying to dictate their moral views on others by FORCE.

I agree. And that is often bad.

But realize that in order to have a government at all there must be moral views imposed on people by force. "Government" and "force" are synonyms.

This is why the Christian, taught by Jesus that the most real change is from the heart outwards, has the BEST reason to argue for a minimalist government.

168 posted on 12/10/2004 9:04:11 AM PST by Taliesan (The power of the State to do good is the power of the State to do evil.)
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To: beckett

One biographer of Darwin makes a strong case that Darwin did indeed lose his faith but not because of his work but because of the childhood death of his favorite daughter.

Personally I sruggle with the idea of having a favorite child.


169 posted on 12/10/2004 9:04:18 AM PST by Killing Time
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To: pnome
Just another guess, but I'll say no they arn't. Each [of 42] in charge of a different aspect of the universe. Again, just a wild guess.

I think the number you're looking for is 7. Destiny, Death, Dream, Destruction, Desire, Despair, and Delirium.

170 posted on 12/10/2004 9:06:00 AM PST by Caesar Soze
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To: Protagoras
"I disagree."

Disagree if you like, but you put your credibility at risk.

I can simply claim that I have died once and am not the resurrected version of my former self. Deny it! Prove that I am wrong! Do you see the problem here?
171 posted on 12/10/2004 9:06:19 AM PST by pnome
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To: pnome

BTW, if I were emperor I would let you smoke pot in your own home. I would tell you it is a stupid thing to do, but I think many such laws are a waste of money.


172 posted on 12/10/2004 9:06:35 AM PST by Taliesan (The power of the State to do good is the power of the State to do evil.)
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To: Taliesan

Well thanks. I apreciate that.

Ok I have to get back to work now. Was a pleasure debating with you chaps.


173 posted on 12/10/2004 9:10:19 AM PST by pnome
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To: pnome
The way of a good Christian I suppose.

Huh?

174 posted on 12/10/2004 9:10:32 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: pnome
Disagree if you like, but you put your credibility at risk.

If disagreeing with you puts my credibility at risk, I feel pretty safe. LOL

BTW, you have continued to ignore the question. That doesn't bode well for YOUR credibility. :^}

175 posted on 12/10/2004 9:12:44 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: valuesvaluesvalues

1000 posts will soon follow


176 posted on 12/10/2004 9:13:08 AM PST by lbmorris11 (America defeating terrorism and Liberalism)
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To: Taliesan

I did mean "nothing". I have learned that it is not always possible to generalise from one's own experience.


177 posted on 12/10/2004 9:14:41 AM PST by Killing Time
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To: brownsfan

Satan believes in God.

Hes still going to Hell.

Salvation is in Jesus Christ.


178 posted on 12/10/2004 9:14:52 AM PST by LtKerst (Lt Kerst)
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To: WOSG
"If at some point you need 'faith' to glue your conclusions to your axioms, isn't it fair for a use-reason-only skeptic to call 'foul'?"

Is it a "leap of faith" to believe that others beside yourself have a mind, and aren't just preprogrammed robots?

What would you call a "skeptic" who questions your sanity for "believing" such a thing?

Sane? Logical? Rational?

179 posted on 12/10/2004 9:15:59 AM PST by Matchett-PI (All DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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To: Protagoras

"BTW, you have continued to ignore the question. That doesn't bode well for YOUR credibility. :^}"

I must have missed your questions then. What was it again?


180 posted on 12/10/2004 9:20:26 AM PST by pnome
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To: pnome

What would you concider to be proof of the ressurection of Christ?


181 posted on 12/10/2004 9:23:23 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: Protagoras

"What would you concider to be proof of the ressurection of Christ?"

Call me "Doubting Thomas". I require the same amount of proof. Not simply the word of an apostle. Which is all the proof you have.


182 posted on 12/10/2004 9:31:48 AM PST by pnome
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To: joesnuffy

You believe Satan can be saved? I'm so grateful sometimes for the things I don't know.

Didn't Satan decide not to worship Man at the command of God, and as such was thrown from Heaven?

I know that the story of Satan is from Apocryphal, more correctly non-canonical, books.

Is the most correct answer, we just don't know, and Satan is who he is and it will never be different?


183 posted on 12/10/2004 9:33:07 AM PST by RinaseaofDs (The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

Even when an atheist gets closer to the pearly gates....he finds God.......


184 posted on 12/10/2004 9:34:24 AM PST by Route101
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To: All
Faith is the proof that God exist.

Without Faith, he does not exist.

185 posted on 12/10/2004 9:34:37 AM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: pnome

"I AM against minimum wage laws. Even some discrimination laws."

Then your argument is not against Christians at all. you are just stereotyping and nitpicking. Your against non-anarchists of any stripe defining boundaries of civility.

"When you drive drunk, you put others right to life at great risk. Not so when I smoke pot in my home."

Plenty of drunk drivers would disagree... they claim that they are safer. And besides, you are destroying plenty when you use dangerous drugs.

btw, you DO recognize that you are also imposing morality when you imply your 'right to life' allows you to interfere with the actions of others. that is imposing morality.
what makes the rule 'don't hurt others' more valid than any other rule? I'll put you down for "imposing morality in some cases but not in others".


186 posted on 12/10/2004 9:40:11 AM PST by WOSG (Liberating Iraq - http://freedomstruth.blogspot.com)
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To: pnome
I require the same amount of proof.

Huh? As what?

Not simply the word of an apostle.

Lots of witnesses, but that is neither here nor there. I didn't ask you what was inadequate for you, I asked what would be.

Which is all the proof you have.

I never claimed proof.

Now, what precisely, would be the proof you would require for the resurrection?

187 posted on 12/10/2004 9:40:48 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: pnome

oh wow.

So because some people have a bigotted, false, and stereotyped views of Christians, picking on them for doing what every other part of the political spectrum does (ie advocate for their beliefs in various contexts), the blame lies on Christian heads, not on the anti-Christian zealots?!?

Yeah ... DEFINITELY lay off the pot, man. It's getting to your brain.


188 posted on 12/10/2004 9:44:13 AM PST by WOSG (Liberating Iraq - http://freedomstruth.blogspot.com)
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To: Protagoras
What would you concider to be proof of the ressurection of Christ?

Witnessing it myself through the window in a time machine.

189 posted on 12/10/2004 9:46:53 AM PST by Killing Time
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To: WOSG
Yeah ... DEFINITELY lay off the pot, man. It's getting to your brain.


190 posted on 12/10/2004 9:46:58 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: Killing Time
Witnessing it myself through the window in a time machine.

You get extra points for honesty if you say that.

191 posted on 12/10/2004 9:47:55 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: WOSG

Ok let me clarify here. because i think you guys got the wrong impression about me.

I am not picking on Christians, I am not saying it's all thier fault or whatever. I was answering a question by another poster about why some people attack Christians. I gave my opinion on why I thought that.

I do NOT think all Christians are trying to make me be a Christian (though I think it is part of your religion to win converts). I DO think thier are some Christian groups out there that give you guys a bad name by pushing for laws that will make people follow Christian morals.

That's all I'm saying.


192 posted on 12/10/2004 9:49:34 AM PST by pnome
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To: Matchett-PI

"If at some point you need 'faith' to glue your conclusions to your axioms, isn't it fair for a use-reason-only skeptic to call 'foul'?"

Is it a "leap of faith" to believe that others beside yourself have a mind, and aren't just preprogrammed robots?

---

No, but that form of argument is a 'argument by authority'... okay, so everybody has a mind.
How does that help prove anything?

------
"What would you call a "skeptic" who questions your sanity for "believing" such a thing? Sane? Logical? Rational?"

This is a process question, not about 'sanity' or conclusions. A skeptic would not call 'proven' any argument that has 'leaps' in it.
So, my question really was asking this:
You've made a point, but do you really think your point would convince a skeptic?

that was all.
I think the answer is no, unless you fill in the steps of the argument. what I inferred from you was:
1. lots of people believe in the afterlife.
2. these people are sane and reasonable.
3. therefore the belief is sane and reasonable,
4. since its sane and reasonable, it is true.

... is that your argument?


193 posted on 12/10/2004 9:50:01 AM PST by WOSG (Liberating Iraq - http://freedomstruth.blogspot.com)
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To: brownsfan

I was thinking the same thing.


194 posted on 12/10/2004 9:50:17 AM PST by Muzzle_em
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To: Protagoras
Sorry mate, but there is no contemporaneous documentary proof or even much in the way of oblique reference to Christ's existence. The earliest extant fragments of New Testament text are more than 100 years after the event.

It doesn't matter if you have faith.

195 posted on 12/10/2004 9:50:24 AM PST by Killing Time
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To: Getready
Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
196 posted on 12/10/2004 9:50:38 AM PST by Scythian
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To: Protagoras

The same proof that Thomas got. That's what I was trying to say.


197 posted on 12/10/2004 9:51:12 AM PST by pnome
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To: pnome

Fair enough ... and sorry for the abusive comment...

(although if you *are* a user, i'd still suggest clear-mind-natural-high living :-) )


198 posted on 12/10/2004 9:53:13 AM PST by WOSG (Liberating Iraq - http://freedomstruth.blogspot.com)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

At age 81 it sounds like he is cramming for finals.


199 posted on 12/10/2004 9:54:57 AM PST by N. Theknow (Ladle gulls shut nod stopper torque wet strainers!)
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To: WOSG

Are you for real? LOL


200 posted on 12/10/2004 9:58:24 AM PST by Matchett-PI (All DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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