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Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
NY Newsday ^ | 12/9/04 | RICHARD N. OSTLING

Posted on 12/10/2004 7:08:12 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo

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To: StonyBurk

Dr. Flew's journey to this point is reminiscent of C.S. Lewis in his earlier years.

All journeys are a series of steps. May God bless him with many years, that the good doctor may continue the process of opening to the truth.


51 posted on 12/10/2004 7:50:51 AM PST by ColoCdn (Neco eos omnes, Deus suos agnoset)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo; Admin Moderator
Signor Michaelangelo
what is it about the word search that you don't understand?

The "search" feature in Free Republic is very easy to use
everyone with an IQ above 90 should have no trouble.

This article was posted twice yesterday with the exact same title.

The second time it was posted the Admin Moderator locked the thread
Why hasn't this been locked as well??

52 posted on 12/10/2004 7:52:10 AM PST by Allan
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To: 2banana

Unfortunately the answer is simple, there is not much power with the "other gods" however, when the name of Jesus Christ is mentioned you automatically feel guilty of your sin, whether you believe in him or not, that is what true righteousness does it convicts the soul of its misdeeds. You can only feel comfortable with the name of Jesus once you repent.


53 posted on 12/10/2004 7:52:35 AM PST by weshess (I will stop hunting when the animals agree to quit jumping in front of my gun to commit suicide)
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To: jrestrepo
Over the years, Flew proclaimed the lack of evidence for God while teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities in Britain, in visits to numerous U.S. and Canadian campuses and in books, articles, lectures and debates.

There was no one moment of change but a gradual conclusion over recent months for Flew, a spry man who still does not believe in an afterlife.

Yet biologists' investigation of DNA "has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), that intelligence must have been involved," Flew says in the new video, "Has Science Discovered God?"

The video draws from a New York discussion last May organized by author Roy Abraham Varghese's Institute for Metascientific Research in Garland, Texas. Participants were Flew; Varghese; Israeli physicist Gerald Schroeder, an Orthodox Jew; and Roman Catholic philosopher John Haldane of Scotland's University of St. Andrews.

The first hint of Flew's turn was a letter to the August-September issue of Britain's Philosophy Now magazine. "It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism," he wrote.

How many "secular" folks have the education level to understand the new evidence?

54 posted on 12/10/2004 7:52:52 AM PST by TaxRelief (Merry Christmas!)
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To: Protagoras
"It's my way or the highway." The "anointed" on earth simply can't leave all this up to God. - He is in charge of all things on earth, big and small, except of course this, in this matter, he somehow can't handle it and needs these anointed to whip these poor souls into shape even if they are going the right direction on their journey."

Exactly.

I'll just bet that they wouldn't consider the "journey" of the thief on the cross to be long enough to "do" all that stuff they say is required to be "right with God", either.

55 posted on 12/10/2004 7:53:06 AM PST by Matchett-PI (All DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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To: 2banana
"Sometimes I wonder why Jesus Christ is attacked with such viciousness."

It is not Jesus who is attacked, but Christians. Mostly by people who feel that Christians are trying to dictate how they should live their lives. It's backlash from Christians obtaining political power and forcing their morals on the rest of society.

I am not trying to make an excuse for it. Calling all Christians busy bodies who just want to make us all Christians is as bad a stereotype as saying all Moslems are terrorists.
56 posted on 12/10/2004 7:53:22 AM PST by pnome
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To: pnome
Sorry, you might be able to convince me that a "god", as we can best describe it, exists

If God exists, is there an infinite number of Gods or finite number ? What is your best guess ?

57 posted on 12/10/2004 7:54:09 AM PST by Raycpa (Alias, VRWC_minion,)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England

Or, the universe always existed and never had a beginning. Maybe we are unable to comprehend that. - Tom

58 posted on 12/10/2004 7:57:50 AM PST by Capt. Tom (Don't confuse the Bushies with the dumb Republicans - Capt. Tom)
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To: pnome
It's backlash from Christians obtaining political power and forcing their morals on the rest of society.

I guess that would explain the legalization of abortion, gay marriage, kids being able to get an abortion without their parents knowledge, the taking "Christ" out of Christmas, taking "God" out of the pledge of allegiance, not being able to say "Merry Christmas" to anyone, sad etc..

59 posted on 12/10/2004 7:57:56 AM PST by 2banana (They want to die for Islam and we want to kill them)
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To: pnome
It's backlash from Christians obtaining political power and forcing their morals on the rest of society.

Do you think it was wrong for Christians to obtain political power to stop slavery ?

60 posted on 12/10/2004 7:58:14 AM PST by Raycpa (Alias, VRWC_minion,)
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To: Allan

Hey fellow Canuck.

Probably because it's a different day. We've all seen countless threads that pointed to the same root story for innumerable polls prior to the November election, day after day, after day, ad nauseum.

I'm not on FR every day, so I appreciate the opportunity to catch up on some info that's been posted and chewed on by others, at an earlier date.

BTW, did you hear about the players offering to take a 24% pay cut as an incentive to the owners to get off their duffs and get the season started again?


61 posted on 12/10/2004 7:58:14 AM PST by ColoCdn (Neco eos omnes, Deus suos agnoset)
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To: Raycpa

"If God exists, is there an infinite number of Gods or finite number ? What is your best guess ?"

interesting question. I'm not sure what you are trying to get at, so I will make a guess, and it will be a complete and total guess.

I'll guess finite. 42. :)


62 posted on 12/10/2004 7:59:36 AM PST by pnome
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To: 2banana

Who attacks Jesus Christ "with viciousness"? Christians maybe, but Christ himself?


63 posted on 12/10/2004 8:00:34 AM PST by Killing Time
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To: BibChr
"Find out"... what?

The answer to the question you asked.

I know for sure we can find out what your opinions are about the bible. Not that anyone should care, but who knows, some people like to read about all kinds of unconventional opinions.

You must be having trouble getting hits on your opinion page. Jim usually doesn't like people self promoting their sites on his, but that's his call.

64 posted on 12/10/2004 8:01:00 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: Matchett-PI

Yes. Hence the differentiation between legalistic action and grace-founded responsiveness.


65 posted on 12/10/2004 8:01:50 AM PST by ColoCdn (Neco eos omnes, Deus suos agnoset)
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To: pnome

Are all 42 equally powerfull and all knowing ?


66 posted on 12/10/2004 8:02:02 AM PST by Raycpa (Alias, VRWC_minion,)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

100% it is amazing how fast you find God when you are looking at the end of the line. Regardless, I say to all who accept Christ welcome to the family.


67 posted on 12/10/2004 8:03:52 AM PST by weshess (I will stop hunting when the animals agree to quit jumping in front of my gun to commit suicide)
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To: Raycpa

"Do you think it was wrong for Christians to obtain political power to stop slavery ?"

Certainly not. But how about my other pet issue on these boards, marijuana. Is it right for Christians to say yes to wine, but no to grass? I don't want to get off track, but this is just an example.

How about, say, prayer in school. Christians don't want prayer in public school because they are worried about their children praying. No doubt those kids get plenty of prayer in, they want OTHER peoples children to pray.


68 posted on 12/10/2004 8:04:19 AM PST by pnome
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To: pnome
"Sorry, my mistake. Again, I am not a Christian, so please excuse my ignorance."

Excuse me. I didn't get the impression that you thought you were speaking out of what you considered to be ignorance when you wrote this:

"He has a good argument no doubt. However, it's a big step from his idea of God to the one you go to church to try to talk to." ~ pnome

69 posted on 12/10/2004 8:04:23 AM PST by Matchett-PI (All DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

Sent to family --
Re this URL -- http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/nation/wire/sns-ap-believing-atheist,0,985912.story?coll=sns-ap-nation-headlines
I find it oddly empathetic with my feelings about religion. At the very least, it is a constructive, thought provoking article. If not, then it would remind of the old saw (aka truism) - 'None are so blind as those that will not see'.
I still ponder and appreciate the philosophical opinion of a great philosopher (name escapes me) that -
'" There must be a God for, coming to know man, if there were no God man would have created one"

Like I said- food for thought.

God protect our GI kids in harm's way, L+ve, R.


70 posted on 12/10/2004 8:04:46 AM PST by hoot33
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To: Taliesan
"When a person steps in the right direction, you don't beat him over the head for not stepping far enough."

THANK YOU!

I don't understand why anyone who calls himself a "Christian" is not REJOICING(!!!) at the statement this man has made.

Whether he is sincere or not, saying because he's old, or not...is not for us to judge. God can and will work miracles in the heart of a man who isn't hardened against Him. If this man really has opened up to the possibility that there is a God, then who are we to just decide that he will not also accept God into his heart and join his brothers and sisters in HEAVEN?!?!?

Why can we not just be happy that he has made a step in the right direction. One step must come before the second one can follow.

Praise God for touching this man's heart and I pray that He continue to sow His seeds of love in a place once untouched by light.
71 posted on 12/10/2004 8:04:56 AM PST by melbell (groovy)
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To: Protagoras
My, aren't you a fragrant little rose of sweetness today, even to your allies?

Happily, all the facts are laid out in my essays; nothing hidden. Folks can judge for themselves. You seem to find it personally threatening and in need of some attempt at dismissal. Deny it if you like; what's undeniable is, that's your affair.

Which isn't as happy a thing as it sounds at first blush.

And I'll start worrying about my unobtrusive little linked invitations, when Jim starts cracking down on folks who post large personal iconic graphics with every single post they write (see Sabertooth, Atomic Possum, etc.)

Dan
Biblical Christianity web site
Biblical Christianity message board
Biblical Christianity BLOG

72 posted on 12/10/2004 8:07:44 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Matchett-PI

I do regret my previous syntax. I am not a Christian, but I do have some concept of the god Christians worship. My ignorance is in traditions.

Just that, the god that Flew describs is not the god Christians worship. My mistake on where it is Christians do thier worshiping.


73 posted on 12/10/2004 8:07:54 AM PST by pnome
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To: All
The people on this thread who are being sarcastic and treating Flew's change of heart with contempt might once have done the same for that greatest of twentieth-century Christian apologists, C.S. Lewis. There was a period when Lewis had turned from his hard-headed, hard-hearted atheism but had not yet accepted Christ.

Personally I don't see anything as craven as a CYA gesture in this philosopher's new understanding. He says he still doesn't believe in an afterlife, so what would he be trying to cover his @$$ for? Anyway, it's more difficult to change your mind at the end of your life, when your whole mind is oriented in a certain way. I find it commendable that this man is able to reverse his position and undergo what must be a certain amount of public humiliation in admitting that his whole life has been wrong. Such humility and moral courage will lead him down the path toward further enlightenment, and may perhaps even take him into the arms of Christ.

Be slow to criticize. No matter how mature a Christian you are, there are some who are yet further along on the path toward God than you are, and they do not look down on you.

74 posted on 12/10/2004 8:09:53 AM PST by Capriole
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To: pnome
Also, there is no afterlife, no heaven, no hell and certainly no devil.

You're pretty sure of yourself on those points without evidence...

75 posted on 12/10/2004 8:10:02 AM PST by frog_jerk_2004
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To: DennisR

...Look around - there are countless unmistakable hints that God exists...

Great tagline.

Exactly. It does not take much to see if you want to see.

Look at flowers. Accident would have created bland, simple designs. You see the work of One who chose to display beauty, color, uniqueness for survivability. Almost like an artist creating gifts of love to a world he created.

Look at the birds, insects, small animals - each unique and specific for their needs. Accident would have created only a few with very basic needs.

Look in the eyes of dogs and family pets. Why would they have been made by accident? But, from a God who saw the need of something that accepted man as he was, that provided comfort, joy, companionship and love, it can be seen as a wonderful gift from a loving God. Accident would not have cared.

Just look at any aspect of life around you and compare what accident would have provided - something simple, bland, with few variations. But what do you see - each totally created for its purpose, with millions of variations of design with each for a purpose for that creature.

Again - the work of an Artist who loves the world.


76 posted on 12/10/2004 8:10:03 AM PST by ClancyJ (Middle America is what makes America - not the Liberal "elitists" and the Media)
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To: Raycpa

"Are all 42 equally powerfull and all knowing ?"

Just another guess, but I'll say no they arn't. Each in charge of a different aspect of the universe. Again, just a wild guess.


77 posted on 12/10/2004 8:10:45 AM PST by pnome
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To: pnome

So its not Christians per se.


78 posted on 12/10/2004 8:11:10 AM PST by Raycpa (Alias, VRWC_minion,)
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To: pnome
Just another guess, but I'll say no they arn't. Each in charge of a different aspect of the universe. Again, just a wild guess.

If they are not equal, then what happens if they disagree or overlap ?

79 posted on 12/10/2004 8:13:12 AM PST by Raycpa (Alias, VRWC_minion,)
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To: frog_jerk_2004

"You're pretty sure of yourself on those points without evidence..."

And the pope is pretty sure I'm wrong without evidence. The claim that thier is a heaven, and the claim that there is not, have the same amount of evidence to back them up.


80 posted on 12/10/2004 8:13:19 AM PST by pnome
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To: betty boop; Taliesan; Michael_Michaelangelo; marron
Taliesan: When a person steps in the right direction, you don't beat him over the head for not stepping far enough.

betty boop: Indeed. That would be both unreasonable and uncharitable.

So very true!

It appears that Mr. Flew was significantly persuaded by Gerald Schroeder - an Orthodox Jewish Physicist we cite now and again on various science threads.

IOW, it appears to me that Mr. Flew was sensitive to an intellectual argument for God. But that is not the same as the Christian witness spoken of in so very many passages throughout Scripture – namely, letting our light (actually, His Light) shine, loving our neighbors, kindness and such. Jesus honors us by allowing the unbeliever to hear Him through us. We can do nothing on our own (John 15). And not every unbeliever can (or is willing to) hear Him (John 10).

IMHO, it is rarely successful when a Christian beats an unbeliever over the head with a five pound Bible – however, a “surgical” mentioning of passages applicable to the unbeliever’s quandary of the moment – or even just leaving the Scriptures here and there (Gideon’s approach) - is always effective (Isaiah 55:11).

81 posted on 12/10/2004 8:13:25 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: BibChr
My, aren't you a fragrant little rose of sweetness today, even to your allies?

LOL, It's my job man. Card carrying member of the Curmudgeon Club.

folks who post large personal iconic graphics with every single post they write (see Sabertooth, Atomic Possum, etc.)

You mean like this one?


82 posted on 12/10/2004 8:14:51 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: pnome
The claim that thier is a heaven, and the claim that there is not, have the same amount of evidence to back them up.

Where is the evidence to the contrary?

83 posted on 12/10/2004 8:15:06 AM PST by frog_jerk_2004
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To: Raycpa

"If they are not equal, then what happens if they disagree or overlap ?"

They never disagree or overlap. They all have thier set functions that take care of everything in the universe. (more complete guessing)


84 posted on 12/10/2004 8:15:09 AM PST by pnome
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To: frog_jerk_2004

"Where is the evidence to the contrary?"

The burden of proof is not on me. It is on the one making the claim that thier IS a heaven.


85 posted on 12/10/2004 8:16:10 AM PST by pnome
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To: Allan
Signor Michaelangelo what is it about the word search that you don't understand?

Nothing. I forgot to do it. Normally I do, but this time I was in a hurry and posted it without checking. I apologize.

It's nice to know you are policing the boards, though.

86 posted on 12/10/2004 8:16:19 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo (The best theory is not ipso facto a good theory.)
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To: pnome
They never disagree or overlap. They all have thier set functions that take care of everything in the universe. (more complete guessing)

How did they get their assigned functions ?

87 posted on 12/10/2004 8:16:39 AM PST by Raycpa (Alias, VRWC_minion,)
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To: Protagoras
LOL! Yeah, exactly like that one!

Dan
(c;

88 posted on 12/10/2004 8:16:39 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Protagoras

Geez! thanks SO MUCH for an image that I'm sure will haunt my ENTIRE DAY!

Dan
8^D


89 posted on 12/10/2004 8:17:25 AM PST by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: pnome

It is not my place--nor intent to convince anyone of anything.You are entitled to your fuzzyheaded suppositions.
I find comfort in Scripture that bit about They shall know the truth and the truth shall set them free." I personally
find it B.S. that any unbeliever should embrace the false
doctrine of secular humanism.for that is against Nature and
Natures God.


90 posted on 12/10/2004 8:18:38 AM PST by StonyBurk
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To: ColoCdn
I'm not on FR every day
so I appreciate the opportunity to catch up on some info
that's been posted and chewed on by others, at an earlier date.

It's not so hard nor does it take so long
to look through the threads posted the previous day.

I, for one, want to know what others might have said about a topic that interests me.

It's more than a bit of a pain in the a**
to go back to look for other threads that have discussed the exact same article
and to follow the discussion on two (or more) different threads.

91 posted on 12/10/2004 8:18:41 AM PST by Allan
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To: pnome
The burden of proof is not on me.

If you are taking the contrary position, yes it is. The "There is no afterlife" argument is not self-evident.

92 posted on 12/10/2004 8:18:42 AM PST by frog_jerk_2004
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo

I haven't read the whole thread and don't even know the man, but my first thought on reading the title was ------How many people did he influence with his previous belief?


93 posted on 12/10/2004 8:19:53 AM PST by Exit148 (Founder of the Loose Change Club. Every nickle and dime counts!!)
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To: Raycpa
"So its not Christians per se."

No, it is the impression, or rather the belief that it is the Christians who are pushing these laws and wishing to legislate morality. I think the evidence shows pretty strongly that Christians lobby for such laws.

How many devout Christians do you know that favor marijuana legalization? Certainly a devout Christian won't smoke marijuana themselves, that would be against their religion, but the problem comes when that same Christian wants to tell me, not a Christian, that I have to follow the teachings of their religion. That makes people not like Christians.
94 posted on 12/10/2004 8:20:37 AM PST by pnome
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To: Taliesan
"..the fork in the road between theism and atheism is not a matter of education, it is a matter of some earlier premise, often at the sub-cognitive level."

Maybe God turned the switch on. Maybe he didn't. Only he knows.

95 posted on 12/10/2004 8:20:44 AM PST by Matchett-PI (All DemocRATS are either religious moral relativists, libertines or anarchists.)
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To: pnome
And the pope is pretty sure I'm wrong without evidence.

The Pope is not making this claim on his own and he is not the source of the claim. This claim was demonstrated by Jesus Christ, by his words and his resurrection.

96 posted on 12/10/2004 8:21:02 AM PST by frog_jerk_2004
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To: pnome
Also, there is no afterlife, no heaven, no hell and certainly no devil.

Now troubles are many, they're as deep as a well.
I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell.
Swear there ain't no heaven and I pray there ain't no hell,
But I'll never know by living, only my dying will tell.
Yes only my dying will tell.
Yeah, only my dying will tell.

Blood, Sweat and Tears

97 posted on 12/10/2004 8:21:58 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: BibChr
LOL, glad to help!

A little dose of love with every helping of abuse. :^}

98 posted on 12/10/2004 8:23:02 AM PST by Protagoras (Christmas is not a secular holiday)
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To: Protagoras
I can swear there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell.

The Atheist's dilemma...

99 posted on 12/10/2004 8:23:52 AM PST by frog_jerk_2004
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To: Allan

Granted. But laziness overcomes me more often than not. Plus, on second threads you don't get the same mix of opinion on the topic previously discussed, and it's entertaining to see the divergence of opinions, to me.

Canucks fan, or one of those frozen-tundra easterners?


100 posted on 12/10/2004 8:24:09 AM PST by ColoCdn (Neco eos omnes, Deus suos agnoset)
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