When did armored vehicles become an entitlement program?
Posted on 12/10/2004 7:04:48 PM PST by Doctor Raoul
See the following articles: http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/203200_armor10.html FROM THE SEATTLE TIMES ARTICLE: Here's the phone number 1-800-782-7892 - Intl. Export / Import Services, press "0" to get a person. Is Durbin a hypocrite for saying anything while he protects the pork at home?
http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_10.html
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m998.htm
From those articles and webpages, here's some facts:
19,400 Humvees in Iraq
TODAY 77% of Humvees in Iraq are armored
5,900 were shipped from factory with armor
9,000 upgraded with kits in theater
Unarmored Humvees aren't supposeed to go off base.
Unarmored Humvees travel between bases on a flatbed truck.
Of 9,386 armor kits shipped to Iraq, 9,143 have been installed.
That's 97% installed, only 3% to go.
There are at least 16 varients of the Humvee:
M998 cargo/troop carrier without winch
M1038 cargo/troop carrier with winch
M966 TOW missile carrier, basic armor, without winch
M1036 TOW missile carrier, basic armor, with winch
M1045 TOW missile carrier, supplemental armor, without winch
M1046 TOW missile carrier, supplemental armor, with winch
M1025 armament carrier, basic armor, without winch
M1026 armament carrier, basic armor, with winch
M1043 armament carrier, supplemental armor, without winch
M1044 armament carrier, supplemental armor, with winch
M996 mini-ambulance, 2-litter, basic armor
M997 maxi-ambulance, 4-litter, basic armor
M1035 soft-top ambulance, 2-litter
M1037 S-250 shelter carrier, without winch
M1042 S-250 shelter carrier, with winch
M1069 tractor for M119 105-mm light gun
The Humvees to be factory-armored by O'Gara-Hess have some different specifications than the models shipped without armor, Woodward said. So increasing production requires careful planning.
Today on Rush's show, he had a caller that swears she knows people that are buying steel locally there in the Pacific Northwest and sending it by UPS to soldiers in Iraq.
"It's not like making a Big Mac," he said. "There are so many configurations. ... You can't just whip them through like a big grill in a McDonald's."
I called UPS. They will ship to Iraq, but you have to pick up your shippment at their offices in Baghdad or Basra. They don't deliver to anyone's door.
Also, length, width and height can't total more than 165 inches.
The weight limit on packages to Iraq, 150 lbs.
Yeah, ship armor plate by UPS, that'll work.
A caller to Dom Giordano's show last night had three very good observations. The handwringing liberals posture this as "if you only cared enough, people wouldn't die" even in a war.
He also said it depended on believing that people in the Pentagon would put $$$ before a soldier's life.
Last, he noted that the HMMWV replced the jeep and that no one would expect even an armored jeep to do what we have armored HMMWVs doing.
Rock Island Arsenal has a piece of this according to the caller and LTC Scott Rutter USA(Ret) and that Durbin's backyard. Obviously those take more time to reach the soldiers than those modified in theater.
yeah but there is no mistaking the applause when he was asked the question
I think the administration should view it as useful feedback and say they will be talking to the troops directly like this from now on
Let's not forget the tragedy of the Grant tanks in North Africa and the hazards of their riveted armor. Then, even though the Sherman tanks were 2nd rate compared to the latest German armor, the military modified them to assault the hedgerows and minefields of France.
An old-timer aquaintance of mine recounts tales of welding Sherman armor in a circle of GI's holding ponchos so the Germans couldn't see the salvage operation going on.
Like Rummy said, you go to war with the army you have - not the army you want. Never been any different.
Question in my mind is did the troops know the true status or was the applause for a misunderstanding? What was their schedule for conversion, would they really go in unmod'ed HMMWvs?
I think the administration should view it as useful feedback and say they will be talking to the troops directly like this from now on
Remember, that was the reporter's version of the question. Other soldier's allegedly asked questions about the same subject but that wasn't covered. I'm trying to locate a transcript of the entire event to confirm or deny that assertion in one of the articles Drudge linked.
Remember, nobody saw this coming. To get around the time required, they'd have had to seen it LONG BEFORE even Bush's election. In a Slate article, they quote Ted Kennedy mocking the Army budget lines for armor upgrades on Fiscal Years 04 and 05. They were zero. But the Fat Drunk knows full well that when he's reading that in '04, it's a VERY cheap shot. Those numbers are locked in concrete TWO years prior. That's not to say the Army didn't go in for a SUPPLIMENT APPRORIATION.
The media and the left put a LOT of BS out there, just like they did the body armor.
The media likes to make that reply into a snipe at the soldier. I don't see it that way. For years, we always heard the saying that "The next war will be Come As You Are".
Nobody foresaw such a war, translated that to operational requirements, doctrine and equipment.
What's good for this war would be a disaster in another.
Wasn't the RatherGate Report due out today?
I can't wait for the scene, Dan getting into the CBS helicopter, suddenly turns around, raises both arms and makes the "V" signs with both hands...
I think some of these troops have to quit whining.
One never has everything one wants, or needs, in theatre.
This touchy, feely, crap started back during the Clinton years when senior command was supposed to get in touch with the troop's real feelings. What a crock.
They have it a lot better than in my day, the same as I had it a lot better than in my father's, etc.
The lesson is: everybody needs to remember there is such a thing as chain of command. It is almost never, ever to be broken. even when invited to do so.
Check the history of the Sherman Tank in WWII for a good, really good, contrast to this rubbish. What Rummy said is true - 'you go to war with the army you have, not the one you want.'
During WWII the early versions of the tank was lightly armored for speed. Its gun was small and the shell was unable to dent the Tiger. The german rounds would pierce the Sherman's skin and light up the insides, killing or wounding all occupants inside.
After the Allies reclaimed a tank after battle, men were "volunteered" to clean out the various body parts/stuff left. The Army would then refurbish and reuse the tank in combat. The new occupants noted a distinct odor in the tank. "It smelled like death."
"He also said it depended on believing that people in the Pentagon would put $$$ before a soldier's life."
Unfortunately, there are some who do not put the troops first.
THE UNITED STATES ARMY IN WORLD WAR II http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/wwii/usarmy/tanktypes.aspx
by Rich Anderson
Tank Types Available
Medium tank types utilized included the M3 Grant, M4 Sherman 75mm, M4 Sherman 76mm, and the M26 Pershing. All tank battalions that landed in Normandy were equipped with the M4 Sherman 75. However, by late June and early July of 1944, a number of M4 Sherman 76mm tanks were available and began to replace the 75mm armed tanks. Replaced M4 Sherman 75 tanks were then refitted by Ordnance workshops (when possible) with the 76mm. By late 1944 there was usually one M4 Sherman 76mm per platoon. However, the 8th, 9th, 10th, and 11th Armored divisions which arrived in late 1944 were entirely equipped with the M4 Sherman 76mm. This was also true of the divisions which arrived in 1945 (the 12th, 13th, 14th, 16th, and 20th). Of course, combat losses in these divisions were replaced by whatever was available -- which often meant M4 Sherman 75 mm tanks.
An important variant of the M4 was the M4A3E2 Jumbo assault tank. This modified vehicle was heavily armored (although all initial production models were equipped with the 75mm). Few (254) were factory built, however Ordnance workshops of the US First and Third Armies successfully modified many M4s in the field to Jumbos (between January and March 1945 the Third Army alone produced 108 of these "ersatz Jumbos," it appears that about 100 additional were produced in 1944). Allocation of the Jumbo varied. Usually they were found in the armored divisions, although some First Army separate tank battalions also had them. Normally there was no more than one "Jumbo" per company, although some divisions organized them as a complete company within the battalion.
The first M26 Pershing tanks were delivered in January 1945, the 3rd and 9th Armored divisions each being issued ten. In the 9th Armored Division these were used to form a temporary 4th Platoon in two tank companies. Those of the 9th Armored Division participated in the seizure of the Remagen Bridge. The M24 Chaffee light tank appeared in the ETO in December 1944, initially going to the 759th Light Tank Battalion, and then, as available, to the light tank companies of the armored divisions and cavalry mechanized squadrons.
---Like Rummy said, you go to war with the army you have - not the army you want. Never been any different.---
Amen to that!
One very good thing about the Sherman's was that they kept running a lot longer than the German stuff. Another good thing was we had a lot of them!
Ping
No (repeat: NO!) combat troop went into battle with a flak jacket or the other "armored" aspects to their personal gear. There were non-combat troops that didn't have flak jackets initially, and those are the ones that sKerry was trying to paint as all troops. Total horse crap.
Everyone has already broken down the myriad reasons about the HUMVEEs. The most poignant is still the most simple: HUMVEEs are NOT APCs (Armored Personnel Carriers). The HUMVEE was NOT actually designed to be armored. As noted, it was simply to replace the Jeep. Now, with the battlefield usefulness of the HUMVEE, it has transformed, ON THE BATTLEFIELD, into a Jeep/APC. Once this was recognized, the engineering was retrofitted to accomodate armoring and production was ramped up 2,250% (reports are production went from 20 to 450) in fairly short order.
So, we are in war. A vehicle that is not an APC starts to be used --more and more-- as an APC. Our military, which is notoriously slow, contracts to ramp up production. They do so, to the order of over 2000% of what was being produced.
And this is a failure on the part of administration, the Pentagon, Don Rumsfeld and all the private businesses that are support the War Fighter?
What?
This is friggin' the 7th level of bizarro world that they libs have entered. These people have lost all sense (as if they ever had any).
Good thread
Armor on my (souped up!) Jeep:
0
http://3ad.com/history/wwll/article.pages/death.traps.htm
Excellent book about US tanks in WW II.
It gets traction with the media because it fits the template. I'd be willing to bet that none of the soldiers at the conference had ever dug through a dump for armor, nor did they directly know anyone who has. I'll bet they've heard stories, but cannot put a face and name of someone they know into the story. If 77% of the Humvees are already armored, that leaves a very small % of soldiers who ever come into contact with a vehicle that isn't.
My favorite new word-
Pajamahadeen
Funny, yet accurate.
When did armored vehicles become an entitlement program?
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