PAJAMAHADEEN ALERT: Facts on Humvee Armor Big Media Ignores

[Doctor Raoul]

See the following articles:

http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_10.html

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/203200_armor10.html

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m998.htm

From those articles and webpages, here's some facts:

19,400 Humvees in Iraq
5,900 were shipped from factory with armor
9,000 upgraded with kits in theater

TODAY 77% of Humvees in Iraq are armored


Unarmored Humvees aren't supposeed to go off base.
Unarmored Humvees travel between bases on a flatbed truck.

Of 9,386 armor kits shipped to Iraq, 9,143 have been installed.
That's 97% installed, only 3% to go.

There are at least 16 varients of the Humvee:

M998 cargo/troop carrier without winch
M1038 cargo/troop carrier with winch
M966 TOW missile carrier, basic armor, without winch
M1036 TOW missile carrier, basic armor, with winch
M1045 TOW missile carrier, supplemental armor, without winch
M1046 TOW missile carrier, supplemental armor, with winch
M1025 armament carrier, basic armor, without winch
M1026 armament carrier, basic armor, with winch
M1043 armament carrier, supplemental armor, without winch
M1044 armament carrier, supplemental armor, with winch
M996 mini-ambulance, 2-litter, basic armor
M997 maxi-ambulance, 4-litter, basic armor
M1035 soft-top ambulance, 2-litter
M1037 S-250 shelter carrier, without winch
M1042 S-250 shelter carrier, with winch
M1069 tractor for M119 105-mm light gun

FROM THE SEATTLE TIMES ARTICLE:

The Humvees to be factory-armored by O'Gara-Hess have some different specifications than the models shipped without armor, Woodward said. So increasing production requires careful planning.

"It's not like making a Big Mac," he said. "There are so many configurations. ... You can't just whip them through like a big grill in a McDonald's."

Today on Rush's show, he had a caller that swears she knows people that are buying steel locally there in the Pacific Northwest and sending it by UPS to soldiers in Iraq.

I called UPS. They will ship to Iraq, but you have to pick up your shippment at their offices in Baghdad or Basra. They don't deliver to anyone's door.

Also, length, width and height can't total more than 165 inches.

The weight limit on packages to Iraq, 150 lbs.

Yeah, ship armor plate by UPS, that'll work.

Here's the phone number 1-800-782-7892 - Intl. Export / Import Services, press "0" to get a person.

A caller to Dom Giordano's show last night had three very good observations. The handwringing liberals posture this as "if you only cared enough, people wouldn't die" even in a war.

He also said it depended on believing that people in the Pentagon would put $$$ before a soldier's life.

Last, he noted that the HMMWV replced the jeep and that no one would expect even an armored jeep to do what we have armored HMMWVs doing.

Rock Island Arsenal has a piece of this according to the caller and LTC Scott Rutter USA(Ret) and that Durbin's backyard. Obviously those take more time to reach the soldiers than those modified in theater.

Is Durbin a hypocrite for saying anything while he protects the pork at home?

[68-69TonkinGulfYachtClub]

What ABC, AP, CBS, CNN, FOX, MSNBC, NBC, NY Times DON'T want YOU to know.

The Truth!

[JasonC]

What horsefeathers. Future wars are not going to be over in 4 days just because somebody wishes they would be. That is absurd. You train and plan as you fight, not the other way around. Shall we issue all our men only one mag because the war should be over as soon as each shoots a couple of the enemy? And call it deployable logistics and staying focused on rapid decision?

The rapid redeploy go light crowd have gone round the bend on this one. We aren't 96 hours into an emergency war where the number one priority is whether something fits in a C-130. We've had years to ship whatever we want on a slow boat clear around the world, we've spent tens of billions, we have thousands of contractors in country, we've know IEDs were the enemy's preferred means for almost a year and a half.

Wars sometimes are matters of attrition that last years, and we should win them anyway. Those wishing it were not so are wishing, not facing military realities. I'm all for rapidly breaking the enemy's main fielded forces, but only in maneuverist cartoons do wars end with a cheering section and a parade because somebody drove behind the enemy. In the real world, you have to hold the ground and kill anyone who still wants some, as long as it takes. Learn a lesson from reality every once and a while.

[Fawnn]

An old-timer aquaintance of mine recounts tales of welding Sherman armor in a circle of GI's holding ponchos so the Germans couldn't see the salvage operation going on.

Difference is today some MSM reporter would get behind those ponchos in a "brave" attempt to try to earn a name for himself by reporting that we were deceiving the enemy.

[Mr. K]

you da man! doc

[Soaring Feather]

Truth bump!!

[E.G.C.]

BTT!!!!!!

[Mo1]

I called UPS. They will ship to Iraq, but you have to pick up your shippment at their offices in Baghdad or Basra. They don't deliver to anyone's door.

WHAT?!?!?!?!

UPS doesn't do home deliveries in Iraq ?!?!?!?

I Demand a Federal Investigation as to why!!

/ s >

[bannie]

Tell all liberals: We could just drop one biiiig bomb and solve the whole problem.

[Dilbert56]

This whole kerfluffle raises some hard questions and I don't know where to get the answers.

• How many of our troops were killed while riding in regular HumVees?
• How many were killed by weapons the armor would have defeated? One general pointed out that some IEDs have flipped tanks over.
• How would the terrorists have altered their tactics & weapons if all the HumVees had been armored?
• If the Administration knew there would be an insurgency of this scope after the war, would they have removed Saddam anyway?
• Would it have been a viable argument to say Saddam is a gathering threat but, in case there's an insurgency afterward, we need to wait until our HumVees are up-armored before we can remove him?
• If we did first up-armor the HumVees, how many nanoseconds would elapse before liberal pantywaists complained the "military-industrial complex" was enriching themselves using money that should go to schools?

Feel free to add your own

[Texas Deb]

BTT!!

[Seeking the truth]

Pajama Patrol Badge Stuff

[Seeking the truth]

No rambling, you were 100% on point.

Pajama Patrol Badge Stuff

[FBD]

ggod point: the Humvee was designed as a rapid deployment vehicle, not as an armored one; an up-armored Humvee M1114 weighs 2000 lbs more than an unarmored one, resulting in sluggish performance, stabilty/suspension issues, increased wear and tear, etc.

[cyncooper]

I think the administration should view it as useful feedback and say they will be talking to the troops directly like this from now on

The administration viewed it from the start as useful feedback. What on earth made you think they didn't?

[Mr. K]

I think I meant to say that the administration should tell the MEDIA to F@&* OFF

[FBD]

The up-armored M1114 Humvee adds 2,000 pounds of weight to the standard Humvee, for a standard protection kit.

I understand that this additional weight results in excessive suspension wear, sluggish performance, etc.
The drive train and suspension also need to be beefed up, to handle this extra weight.

Why weren't the Humvee armored in the first place?
(snip):

---

http://www.defense-update.com/features/du-3-04/up-armored-humvee.htm

"During and after the Kosovo conflict, the US Army decided to protect a small part of its Humvee fleet. The armored version would be heavier – resulting in reduced deployment flexibility. The US Marine Corps, requiring operational speed for its forces, opted not to protect its Humvees.


Where active combat role was considered, the Humvee was selected for its excellent cross country and road, air and helicopter mobility and load capacity.

"It was never intended to perform as armored combat vehicles. Such specification precluded armor protection, in order to maintain its low empty weight and thus high mobility standard."

---

http://www.defense-update.com/features/du-3-04/up-armored-humvee.htm

[Condor51]

Is Durbin a hypocrite for saying anything while he protects the pork at home?

That a rhetorical question, right?
As the correct answer is "A" - Yes of course he is. And that's his good point!

BTW, Durbin doesn't bring any pork home (nothing of 'value' anyway). He could give two shi'ites about Illinois, the state he is supposed to represent. And as to the Rock Island Arsenal, he'd be pleased as punch if the place closed down tomorrow and a HUGE abortion clinic replaced it. And IIRC next to CA & NY we get LESS our our tax dollars back than any other state.

In plain English -- Durbin SUCKS!!

Wait.... I lied. His other 'good point' is that he does answer all his mail, even from known self-admitted Republicans. But he still sucks.

[FBD]

"They have it a lot better than in my day, the same as I had it a lot better than in my father's, etc."

-whaaaaat? you mean you didn't have one of these bad boys with a remote controlled weapon? ;^D

IDF Up-Armored M-1113 ECV with remote controlled weapon station

[cyncooper]

:)

[Ernest_at_the_Beach]

Absolutely Right, good discussion on this thread:

Humvees No Match for Crude Bombs ( Report from the Humvee graveyard ~ Armor helps some )