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Atheist finds 'God' after 50 years
Gaurdian ^ | December 11, 2004 | Laura Smith

Posted on 12/10/2004 7:43:39 PM PST by Lorianne

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1 posted on 12/10/2004 7:43:40 PM PST by Lorianne
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To: Lorianne
How about Great Spirit ?
Great Spirit work for you ?
2 posted on 12/10/2004 7:45:43 PM PST by Eric in the Ozarks
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To: Lorianne

"Still crazy, after all these years, OH, still crazy, after all these years..."


3 posted on 12/10/2004 7:47:29 PM PST by Lurking2Long
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To: Lorianne

God is nothing if not patient.


4 posted on 12/10/2004 7:49:02 PM PST by dsc
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To: jennyp
"It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism."

Don't know if this warrants summoning the Crevo crowd, but pinging all the same...

5 posted on 12/10/2004 7:49:23 PM PST by aposiopetic
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To: Lorianne

If you're preparing for death, you becoming more religious. In one's old age, its harder to remain an atheist.


6 posted on 12/10/2004 7:49:31 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Lorianne

This has been posted from different sources, but I keep wondering if Antony Flew has ever considered the possiblity that his god might not believe in him?


7 posted on 12/10/2004 7:49:45 PM PST by xJones
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To: Lurking2Long

Flew argues that the investigation of DNA "has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce [life], that intelligence must have been involved."


Uh hu, How about entire world? I guess that's not complex enough for this guy


8 posted on 12/10/2004 7:50:01 PM PST by LauraleeBraswell (Support our troops.........)
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To: Lorianne
"My whole life has been guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: follow the evidence, wherever it leads."

Aristotle need not apply. A=A. Sheesh. What a maroon!

/john

9 posted on 12/10/2004 7:51:33 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (D@mit! I'm just a cook. Don't make me come over there and prove it!)
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To: Lorianne
Antony Flew, 81, now believes scientific evidence supports the theory that some sort of intelligence created the universe.

Senility happens.

SO9

10 posted on 12/10/2004 7:51:55 PM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
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To: Lorianne

Didn't even know that God was lost :-)


11 posted on 12/10/2004 7:57:21 PM PST by trailboss800
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To: goldstategop
I'm reminded of something our pastor taught us during bible study for confirmation. You are closest to God just after birth and just before death. It's all the time in the middle that gets us in trouble.
12 posted on 12/10/2004 7:59:16 PM PST by ProudVet77 (Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore.)
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To: Lorianne
In the interest of full disclosure; I am speaking as an atheist.

First: the man is 81 and looking right down the barrel of finite mortality. No one can blame him from trying to hedge.

Second: if this reality is all part of a completely thought out plan, then the malevolent nature of the mind that came up this is jaw droppingly frightening.
In certain christian mythos heaven is the "beatific vision" the permission to look upon the face of god for all eternity. Maybe it's just me, but if a supreme being needs that kind of fawning from its' flawed finite creations there's a serious ego issue at play.
And if I'm wrong and when I buy the farm I don't get to look upon the face of god, I'm ok with that. Because this is a very, very, mean (in every sense of the word) supreme being.
As I see it hell must have a far more interesting group of people.
13 posted on 12/10/2004 8:04:21 PM PST by fourthrider (fourthrider...Proud Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy)
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To: Lorianne

Ooohh ooooh,,,,, knock knock knockin' on heavens door......


14 posted on 12/10/2004 8:05:16 PM PST by Yaco ("split up and charge both ways !!" NB Forrest)
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To: Lorianne

How about this for Mr Flew.

Since in physics on a micro level there is the concept of collapsing a wave form by observation. Why could God not have observed the universe into existance and holds it there by his attention.

It is in keeping with scripture also. His eye is on the sparrow after all. Would require that he knows and monitors all.

God's attention wavers, universe ends.


15 posted on 12/10/2004 8:06:45 PM PST by TASMANIANRED (Free the Fallujah one)
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To: Servant of the 9

Antony Flew, 81, now believes

Yeah, we all start to believe when we get older and closer to meeting our Maker.


16 posted on 12/10/2004 8:07:27 PM PST by oldbrowser (You lost the election.....................Get over it.)
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To: Lorianne

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins."

Then I guess he's a Unitarian.


17 posted on 12/10/2004 8:08:09 PM PST by SBprone
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To: goldstategop

"If you're preparing for death, you become more religious.."


Similiar to the 'no atheists in foxholes' idea? Although I said that once to a former Marine (WWII), and he said, "OH, but there are! I was next to two of them!"


18 posted on 12/10/2004 8:08:46 PM PST by madameguinot
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To: Lorianne
Too Late for the Ole heathen
19 posted on 12/10/2004 8:21:05 PM PST by Fast1
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To: fourthrider
Review Pascal's argument, and write a (yet another) refutation.

I was agnostic (knowing nothing) until truth was revealed.

Kant could't. Nitczhe is dead. Aristotle was correct.

At the very least, don't hide behind a biased world-view of God. God does not need human worship. He exists.

As a final straw, you might try reading the Bible. Actually reading it, instead of relying on reviews presented by leftist professors.

Keep an open mind, but don't let your brains fall out.

/john

20 posted on 12/10/2004 8:23:44 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (D@mit! I'm just a cook. Don't make me come over there and prove it!)
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To: Lorianne

listen folks I don't think you are being at all fair about this...this is a significant development.

i have followed anthony flew's work for years. he is sort of enigmatic in that while he has been a very vocal and very rigorous atheist, he has also been more or less an economic libertarian. he has never embraced socialism. just the opposite. he has almost always been on our side.

i always thought that was interesting. i would think, "well he's half right." i guess from his perspective, i think he must have thought that both religion and socialism are just purely wishful thinking based on feelings, not rigorous thought and investigation.

now, interestingly, the rigor of his thought has led him to doubt his atheism. i think this is significant. and i think we should be grateful that he has the guts and humility after years of being vocal and atheist, to say that maybe he was wrong. how many intellectuals can do that?

my admiration for him has gone up. i think he will come to know the one true triune God before he dies.

Worked for Mortimer Adler, Malcolm Muggeridge, CS Lewis...many many others....


21 posted on 12/10/2004 8:24:32 PM PST by ConservativeDude
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To: Lorianne

Francis Crick, the discoverer of DNA, who just recently passed away, never could believe that life sprang from the earth ex nihilo. The likelihood of this event was so statistically unlikely as to be utterly preposterous. Yet he could never admit the possibility of divine intervention. So he came up with his notion of "directed panspermia", that is, that the earth had to have been seeded by alien beings in the remote past. And this guy had a Nobel Prize in biology! It takes an awful lot of education to be this eccentric.

It is the fatal conceit of modern man to deny God under any and all circumstances. This conceit lies at the heart of all that is wrong with our world today.


22 posted on 12/10/2004 8:26:27 PM PST by bowzer313
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To: Lorianne

Who cares what this idiot thinks?

After 81 years he still hasn't figured it out?


23 posted on 12/10/2004 8:29:48 PM PST by sirjohn
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To: Lorianne
He still accepts Darwinian evolutionary theory but doubts it can explain the complexities of the origins of life.

Well from what I've gathered the two are not related: evolutionary theory and the origins of life.
The Nova story is a fairy tale of soupy chemical mixtures combining in just the right fashion to form living organisms, which then fed on bacteria.
Ho ho ho! Wait a minute you living organisms, where'd you get the bacteria?

OK the origin of life arguments are fairy tales and Dr. Flew acknowledges that. That acknowledgment doesn't mean he "believes in God". He certainly doesn't give testimony to knowing the Judeo-Christain God.
He's just saying that there is a possibility, a likely probability that such an intelligence exists.

So, no news here, truthfully, unless I'm missing something.

24 posted on 12/10/2004 8:29:54 PM PST by ThirstyMan (Why is it, all the dead vote for Democrats?)
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To: Lorianne
He still accepts Darwinian evolutionary theory but doubts it can explain the complexities of the origins of life.

Well from what I've gathered the two are not related: evolutionary theory and the origins of life.
The Nova story is a fairy tale of soupy chemical mixtures combining in just the right fashion to form living organisms, which then fed on bacteria.
Ho ho ho! Wait a minute you living organisms, where'd you get the bacteria?

OK the origin of life arguments are fairy tales and Dr. Flew acknowledges that. That acknowledgment doesn't mean he "believes in God". He certainly doesn't give testimony to knowing the Judeo-Christain God.
He's just saying that there is a possibility, a likely probability that such an intelligence exists.

So, no news here, truthfully, unless I'm missing something.

25 posted on 12/10/2004 8:31:37 PM PST by ThirstyMan (Why is it, all the dead vote for Democrats?)
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To: ThirstyMan

Doah! finally I did it. sorry


26 posted on 12/10/2004 8:32:15 PM PST by ThirstyMan (Why is it, all the dead vote for Democrats?)
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To: fourthrider
First: the man is 81 and looking right down the barrel of finite mortality.

We aren't all 81, but we all face mortality.

The Problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis addresses the other issues in your post, if you're interested. It's a complex problem.

Anthony Flew is one of the most influential atheists of the past 50 years. I read some of his work in college when I was an agnostic.

In 2001, Flew was still claiming to be an atheist.

Sorry to Disappoint, but I'm Still an Atheist! by Antony Flew

Either the Guardian has it wrong, or something's changed for Flew.

27 posted on 12/10/2004 8:38:24 PM PST by Semi Civil Servant
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To: fourthrider
....if this reality is all part of a completely thought out plan, then the malevolent nature of the mind that came up this is jaw droppingly frightening.

You would need to know the fulfillment of the plan to determine whether or not it were malevolent. Evil lacks nature, and is the result of creatures rebelling against the "Planner" with their freewill - given to them by their Creator.

In certain christian mythos heaven is the "beatific vision" the permission to look upon the face of god for all eternity. Maybe it's just me, but if a supreme being needs that kind of fawning from its' flawed finite creations there's a serious ego issue at play.

The Beatific Vision - "to make blessed" - is the gift of Grace which allows a finite creature of God to share directly for all eternity (which God is) in His Glory. The final summation of "The Plan". The Supreme Being doesn't need this "fawning" from His creatures, rather He Wills to bestow this supernatural happiness, namely Himself, on those who freely choose it/Him. Indeed, from a Christian perspective, the central mystery of God that He has revealed to us about Himself is that God is an Infinite Being of three Divine Persons absolutely united together in communion so as to share completely in One Nature.

As I see it hell must have a far more interesting group of people.

That's the problem. There are no groups of people in hell. It is a final state of being, chosen through fault of the individuals who may end there, of complete isolation and loneliness.

28 posted on 12/10/2004 8:43:38 PM PST by TotusTuus
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To: JRandomFreeper
First, let me say, that was a very elegant and poetic response. Nicely crafted. And from that I draw the inference that you are enunciating a deeply personal truth.

That said; I have steeped myself in most of the major mystical literatures out there. I don't come to my opinions -- and that's all they are -- uninformed. I find none of them persuasive. Persuasive? Nay, credible!

My mind is open, but it is of an opinion. Why do I sense there's no chance that my opinion could ever inform yours?

Which begs the question, which mind is closed?

If I were to be convinced otherwise, it would be simply a matter of, "Damn, I was completely wrong about that."

It would not be a hard thing for me because atheism is simple -- it is elegant, I don't know an atheist who, if presented with irrefutable proof would not abjure their previous statements to the contrary. But the obvious remains...Occam's Razor...the simplest, most elegant answer to a problem is almost certainly the correct one. And I acknowledge the word 'almost'.

In a problem of this nature there is no convincing proof that can be given to one side or the other.

So we must both wait for the adjudication of our deaths for resolution.
29 posted on 12/10/2004 9:01:15 PM PST by fourthrider (fourthrider...Proud Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy)
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To: fourthrider

<< Second: if this reality is all part of a completely thought out plan, then the malevolent nature of the mind that came up this is jaw droppingly frightening.
... As I see it hell must have a far more interesting group of people. >>


Maybe, just maybe, God created a perfect system and the malevolence you see and complain about comes from your own mind.

Just because you don't want something to exist, that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You deny the power of creation but you claim to have the power of destruction - by wishing away what you can't accept.

"If I'm wrong" - you say - so you are still buying into the hypothesis.

It's not a matter of guessing correctly based on logic. As you see, logic leads nowhere. Neither does belief.

Just think of the most miserable depressed tortured lost hopeless and insane people you know on this earth. Are they "interesting"?

So would you believe hell in hell is better than hell on earth?


30 posted on 12/10/2004 9:05:43 PM PST by sirjohn
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To: Lorianne

Senility must have set in.


31 posted on 12/10/2004 9:11:11 PM PST by helmetmaker
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To: ConservativeDude

<< listen folks I don't think you are being at all fair about this...this is a significant development. ... i have followed anthony flew's work for years. >>


So if a regular person says something foolish it's Ok to criticize. But if a distinguished and pedigreed professor says the same thing - he should be admired?


32 posted on 12/10/2004 9:18:53 PM PST by sirjohn
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To: Lorianne

Well it's a first step. Baby step. But a step towards accepting the obvious.


33 posted on 12/10/2004 9:19:10 PM PST by plain talk
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To: Lorianne

Atheist finds 'God' after 50 years

So where was he?


Well someone had to say it.


34 posted on 12/10/2004 9:29:45 PM PST by Valin (Out Of My Mind; Back In Five Minutes)
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To: fourthrider

<< So we must both wait for the adjudication of our deaths for resolution. >>

Sorry, pal. I'm not waiting.

And I'm especially not waiting for you.

This is not an argument between people. That's an old trick: If I can't convince you then I lose.

No, it's a question about what your life is about. That's for you to answer, no one else.

And not by argument.


35 posted on 12/10/2004 9:31:06 PM PST by sirjohn
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To: ConservativeDude

i think he will come to know the one true triune God before he dies

From your lips to God's ear.


36 posted on 12/10/2004 9:31:38 PM PST by Valin (Out Of My Mind; Back In Five Minutes)
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To: ConservativeDude
i think this is significant. and i think we should be grateful that he has the guts and humility after years of being vocal and atheist, to say that maybe he was wrong.

ditto that

37 posted on 12/10/2004 9:34:31 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: Semi Civil Servant

There has been several posts about this. It looks like something has changed.


38 posted on 12/10/2004 9:36:07 PM PST by Tribune7
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To: TotusTuus
>know the fulfillment of the plan to determine whether or not it were malevolent.

That assumes there is a "plan". Based on the evidence so far one is hard pressed to believe in such a thing unless one needed to believe because the alternative is just too brutal to accept.

Because if this existence is a "plan" then I'll just as soon hang out with those enemies who really hate me. Cause I wouldn't actually be able to tell the difference.
39 posted on 12/10/2004 9:38:57 PM PST by fourthrider (fourthrider...Proud Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy)
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To: sirjohn

i don't think it's foolish if a regular atheist becomes a theist....nor do i think it's insignificant when a professional atheist changes his mind


40 posted on 12/10/2004 9:40:14 PM PST by ConservativeDude
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To: Lorianne
This guy is the religious equivalent of the flat earth society. Ironically, in their intellectual superiority, they believe themselves to be the sophisticated thinkers.

They are pretty funny in their smugness. Yea, right, there is no God - whatever.

41 posted on 12/10/2004 9:42:43 PM PST by PLK
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Comment #42 Removed by Moderator

Comment #43 Removed by Moderator

To: bowzer313
It is the fatal conceit of modern man to deny God under any and all circumstances.

Well said. I refer to this as "ignorant arrogance."

When man can't "figure out" God, or be given "proof," he concludes God must not exist.

How pathetically naive. To say, in effect, "I can't explain this, therefore it does not exist."

44 posted on 12/10/2004 9:49:22 PM PST by PLK
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To: ConservativeDude

<< nor do i think it's insignificant when a professional atheist changes his mind...>>.


A professional athiest...there's gold in them thar hills.


45 posted on 12/10/2004 9:54:51 PM PST by sirjohn
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To: ProudVet77
You are closest to God just after birth and just before death. It's all the time in the middle that gets us in trouble.

I remember that as well. Thanks for reminding me and for your service as well. I worked for (not in) the Navy for quite a while but do not know what RVN71 is.
46 posted on 12/10/2004 9:59:15 PM PST by microgood
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To: sirjohn

"Mommy, where did I come from? Why did God make me?"

"He wanted you to grow up to be a professional athiest."


47 posted on 12/10/2004 10:00:07 PM PST by sirjohn
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To: microgood

Republic of Viet Nam class of '71


48 posted on 12/10/2004 10:04:32 PM PST by ProudVet77 (Beer - It's not just for breakfast anymore.)
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To: PLK

<< This guy is the religious equivalent of the flat earth society. Ironically, in their intellectual superiority, they believe themselves to be the sophisticated thinkers. >>

Bingo. They want an answer that will satisfy the intellect - as if they created intellect.


49 posted on 12/10/2004 10:10:00 PM PST by sirjohn
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To: Lorianne
He said: "I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins."

Yeah right. Suddenly I'm reminded of that famous verse of scripture from Jeremicah 96:3 that goes "and thou shalt feed thy enemies and non-believers into a plastic shredder so as to remove them from mine sight."

Oriental? Huh?

50 posted on 12/10/2004 10:15:33 PM PST by MCH
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