Palestinian Denial of Jewish Ties to Jerusalem (Al-Taqiyah)

frontpagemag.com ^ | December 10, 2004 | Steven Stalinsky

[miltonim]

Palestinian Denial of Jewish Ties to Jerusalem

Within the Arab world, there has been an ongoing effort to dismiss any Jewish connection to Jerusalem. Leading figures from Palestinian academia, religious, and political establishments have been particularly outspoken on this subject.

Speaking on Palestinian Authority (PA) TV on November 21, Palestinian historian ‘Issam Sisalem, one of the two “home historians” on PA TV, compared Jews to “parasitical worms” who make “false claims” and “Biblical lies.” Regarding Jerusalem, he explained that it has always belonged to Arabs, adding, “Everything on our land is holy to us and we will defend it and never be deceived, nor will we argue about biblical lies that penetrated the minds of some orientalists. Jerusalem has been the capital of our capitals since the dawn of history, and will remain so. We won't share it … The Torah disparages all of the prophets. It presents David as an adulterer and Solomon too. They say that the temple was here. What temple and what shtemple?! What archeological remains?”

The theme that there is no Jewish connection to Jerusalem is also common in sermons and statements by Palestinian religious figures. For example, Sheikh Ikrima Sabri, the Mufti of Jerusalem and the highest ranking Palestinian religious figure gave an interview to the German Die Welt on January 17, 2001, stating, “There is not [even] the smallest indication of the existence of a Jewish temple on this place in the past. In the whole city, there is not even a single stone indicating Jewish history… The Jews do not even know exactly where their temple stood.” When the interviewer asked why he could not respect the Jewish connection to the place, he added, “It is the art of the Jews to deceive the world... There is not a single stone in the Wailing-Wall relating to Jewish History. The Jews cannot legitimately claim this wall, neither religiously nor historically.”

More recently speaking to Egyptian Dream TV on May 9th he added, “The Al-Buraq Wall (i.e. the Western Wall) is part of Al-Aqsa Mosque. It is part of a wall, the wall (surrounding) the mosque. Just like any house with a wall, this wall belongs to the house. The Al-Buraq Wall, is part of the Al-Aqsa Mosque… The Jews pray in front of the Wall, on the outer side of it… but the Wall belongs to the Muslims.”

The Palestinian denial of the Jewish affiliation to Jerusalem is also common among political leaders. Yasser Arafat frequently claimed that the Jews made up a religious connection to both Jerusalem and the Wailing Wall. One example includes an interview he gave to the London Arabic daily Al-Hayat on October 5, 2002. He explained, “They found not a single stone proving that the Temple of Solomon was there, because historically the Temple was not in Palestine [at all].”

Abu Mazen, Arafat’s successor who is now chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization’s executive committee and is running for Palestinian leadership, supports Arafat’s theories on Jerusalem. Speaking to the Israeli-Arab weekly, Kul Al Arab on August 25, 2000, he stated, “Anyone who wants to forget the past cannot come and claim that the [Jewish] temple is situated beneath the Haram. They demand that we forget what happened 50 years ago to the refugees – and I speak as a living, breathing refugee – while at the same time they claim that 2000 years ago they had a temple. I challenge the claim that this is so.”

Representing Palestinian academia, a researcher and editor-in-chief of the Al Quds Al-Sharif Encyclopedia, Dr. Hassan Ali Khater spoke about the Wailing Wall at the now defunct Zayed Centre on January 27, 2002: “Israelis are falsifying history by inscribing Jewish inscriptions on rocks [and] then calling international experts to re-discover [them] as Jewish monuments."

Another report by the Zayed Centre, titled ‘Al-Buraq Wall not Wailing Wall,’ stated, “This study is [to] refute the false Zionist allegations in regard to Palestine… and shows the falsehood of the Zionist religious claims and anthropological fabrications. The study … underlines that Al Aqsa Mosque was built more than a thousand years before Solomon, giving evidence that refutes the Zionist allegations that the Mosque was constructed on the ruins of Solomon's Temple… all of which demonstrate that the Zionist alleged rights to the [Wailing] Wall are simply baseless.”

The issue of Jerusalem can be expected to remain at the center of the Arab-Israeli conflict. The city’s history is recorded in religious, archaeological, and scientific research. No solution to the complex issue of Jerusalem will be found by evading such research.

[myvoice]

They're in for a shock come judgment day. Very sad.

[injin]

what a bunch of BS
Palestinians are the descendants of the Philistines
and Philistine was approx where Gaza is now and some of the Sinai. Arabs themselves are a product of far more modern times, historically being roaming nomads across the region ,
tribal animists and basically brutish prior to Islam .
Some things just don't seem to change much over the centuries!

The tribes of the Jews have a far greater historical and traditional claim on the regions of Jerusalem , Galilee , Judea and Sumeria.

These Pals are just very attached to their olive trees....
Let them start new olive groves , in an irrigated Sinai .
An Egypt donated Palestinian homeland that approximates
the original Philistine . West Bank should become 100%
Israel proper....

Just my take on history ;^)

[dennisw]

What else can expect from these psychos? Lying is a competitive sport for them.

[nopardons]

They're delusional,ignorant of factual history,and insane!

[neb52]

"The study … underlines that Al Aqsa Mosque was built more than a thousand years before Solomon, giving evidence that refutes the Zionist allegations that the Mosque was constructed on the ruins of Solomon's Temple… all of which demonstrate that the Zionist alleged rights to the [Wailing] Wall are simply baseless.”

How do you get peace from people who don't even know their own history? Especially when they use a Roman name for an Administrative district as their ethnic name. All Muslims were good for is destroying ancient history or making ancient history their own. Next they will claim inventing fire and the wheel.

[injin]

" How do you get peace from people who don't even know their own history?"

Personally I think the Pals of the West Bank should all be gathered up , at tank gun point if necessary , and relocated to a Pal nation created in the Sinai . Egypt should give up the territory , for the sake of a lasting Mid East peace, and all the wealthy Arab nations should kick in to help them
get on their feet . Desalinization plants etc.

Maybe there is some way to get moderate Muslim leaders to
outlaw Jihad , to declare it unacceptable , forever ?


nice dreams....

[Lijahsbubbe]

Leading figures from Palestinian academia, religious, and political establishments have been particularly outspoken on this subject.

Let's see, people calling themselves after a country that doesn't exist. Delusional.

[Manic_Episode]

Well, I guess that settles it then. /sarc

[kingsurfer]

It would be great if all the countries worked together to actually solve this situation. With a bit of initiative and compromise everyone could have their own homeland and live in peace but sadly it wil not happen anytime soon.

Maybe in my lifetime though, I certainly hope so!

[IAF ThunderPilot]

Thats funny considering the fact that Israel's King David BUILT Jerusalem around 1200 B.C (when there was no single Muhamed on earth), and his son King Salomon built the first Temple on the temple mount.

The Arabs today, leaded by Iranian orders, destroying Jewish historical objects from the Temple mount to eraise the Jewish connection to the Temple mount and to Jerusalem.

In my opinion Iran should be "take cared", and the cursed El Aktza musquet should be destroyed and the Jews should once again control the Temple mount.

The Arabs with Iran are playing a very dangerous game, and they will pay for playing it, and for playing other dangerous games with us.

As the bible says:
"Hakam Lehorgeha, Hashkem Lehorgo"

Translation from Hebrew:
"The one who is going to kill you, shall be killed before he succeed" (not only a physical killing by the way).

[ROTB]

>nor will we argue about biblical lies that penetrated the
>minds of some orientalists.

The Bible is the Word of God because is says what happens, thousands of years before it happens:

http://www.yfiles.com/y3nf.html

>There is not [even] the smallest indication of the
>existence of a Jewish temple on this place in the past. In
>the whole city, there is not even a single stone indicating
>Jewish history

From http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24760

The damage to the Islamic sites comes on top of the destruction of unique relics and artifacts from Jewish Temple, Byzantine, Crusader and medieval times, that the Muslim builders smashed and dumped, in defiance of protests from scholars around the world and warnings from engineers.

[tkathy]

Christians have some claim as well.

[Just mythoughts]

"Christians have some claim as well."

Interesting what we are told about Jerusalem. Described as the most favorite place on this earth to our Heavenly Father and the place in which Christ will return to clean house.

[tkathy]

There's an interesting bible verse in Revelation Chapter 20 about the beloved city (Jerusalem) surrounded by the armies of Satan like grains of sand (Muslims) and fire rains down from heaven to consume the armies of Satan, etc.

[SirLurkedalot]

LMAO! A Jewish King will reign over the world from Jerusalem one day soon. We might debate his name, but his heritage is not in question AFAIC.

[go-dubya-04]

"Palestinian acedemia" on "Egyptian Dream TV" about sums it up.

[Just mythoughts]

"There's an interesting bible verse in Revelation Chapter 20 about the beloved city (Jerusalem) surrounded by the armies of Satan like grains of sand (Muslims) and fire rains down from heaven to consume the armies of Satan, etc."


We have quite a lot time to cover before we get to the point of this consummation. Remember Satan was created as "perfect in thy ways". Ezekiel 28 tells us about Satan and he was created most beautiful, he is not the ugly picture description most are taught. Think of the beauty of 'hollywood' and yet the miserable perversion that comes out of that hole.

Satan decided that he would be 'God' and he set about a campaign to take from the Creator as many of the children as possible. So you see there is the very very ugly dark terroristic side to Satan and then there is the very very seductive follow me I am god side to Satan, under that dark phrase 'whatever it takes'.

[Freebird Forever]

There can be no peaceful coexistence with muslims who place an active faith in this type if belief.

At the very least, it will be a perpetual cold war. But more likely there will continue to be much blood shed.

It would require heroic efforts of evangelism to win the hearts and minds of these radical islamotrash. It's not going to happen.

These people are destined to be exterminated.

The sooner the better.

[yatros from flatwater]

The formal Koranic term for this is taqqiya - lying for Islam.

The Arab climants to "Palestine" variously hold that they descend from Jebusites or Philistines, but historically there is no one who has continuously laid claim to Jerusalem and its environs save the sons of Israel. The Arabs just haven't held any ongoing presence in the area (read Samuel Clemens' Innocents Abroad description of the desolate state of Jerusalem in the late 19th century).

The name Palestine is a provincial designation originally given to the region (Palestina) by the Romans based on the long gone Philistines as a slap to the rebellious Judeans after the Bar Kochba revolt. Under the British Mandate, the name was applied to provincial inhabitants - Palestinian Jews and Palestinian Arabs.

[Diogenesis]

And in a similar vein:

Islamic Arabs Prove they are Peaceful

================= EXHIBIT 1 ================

Madrid

---

================= EXHIBIT 2 ================

---

Islamic Arabs Prove they are Peaceful

================= EXHIBIT 3 ================

AMERICANS ON A BRIDGE IN FALLUJA BY ISLAMIC SUBHUMANS

---

The War for Infinite Justice MUST BE ESCALATED

================= EXHIBIT 4 ================

TORTURE OF AMERICANS BY ISLAMIC SUBHUMANS

---

The War for Infinite Justice MUST BE ESCALATED

================= EXHIBIT 5 ================

PARTIAL LIST OF ISLAMIC TERRORIST ACTIVITIES

1968 Robert Kennedy assassinated
1972 Munich Olympics Sep-5,1972 (Black September)
1976 Entebbe Hostage Crisis, June 27, 1976
1979 Iran Hostage Crisis, Nov. 4, 1979 444 days
1979 Grand Mosque Seizure, Nov 20,1979
1981 Assassination of Egyptian President, Oct 6,1981
1982 Assassination of Lebanese Prime Minister, Sept 14, 1982
1983 Bombing of US Embassy in Beirut6, April 18,1983
1983 Bombing of Maring Barricks, Beruit, Oct 23,1983
1984 Hizballah Restaurant Bombing, April 12,1984
1985 Egyptian Airliner Hijacking, Nov 23,1985
1985 Rome Airport murders
1985 TWA Flight 847 hijacked, U.S. Navy diver murdered
1985 Achille Lauro hijacking, Homacidal maniac lived in saddams Iraq
1986 Aircraft Bombing in Greece, March 30, 1986
1988 Pan Am 747 Flight 103 Bombing, Lockerbie, 100's murdered
1988 Berlin Discoteque Bombing, Dec 21,1988
1992 Bombing in Israeli Embassy in Argentina, March 17,1992
1993 Attempted Assassination of Pres. Bush Sr., April 14,1993
1993 First World Trade Center bombing, February 26th, 7 Killed, Hundreds injured, Billions
1994 Air France Hijacking, Dec 24,1994
1995 Attack on US Diplomats in Pakistan, Mar 8,1995
1995 Military Installation Attack, Nov 13, 1995
1995 Kashmiri Hostage taking, July 4,1995
1996 Khobar Towers attack
1996 Sudanese Missionarys Kidnapping, Aug 17,1996
1996 Paris Subway Explosion, Dec 3,1996
1997 Israeli Shopping Mall Bombing, Sept 4, 1997
1997 Yemeni Kidnappings, Oct 30,1997
1998 Somali Hostage taking crisis, April 15,1998
1998 U.S. Embassy Bombing in Peru, Jan 15, 1998
1998 U.S. Kenya Embassy blown up, 100's murdered
1998 U.S. Tanzania Embassy blown up, 100's murdered
1999 Plot to blow up Space Needle (thwarted)
2000 USS Cole attacked, many U.S. Navy sailors murdered
2000-2003 Intifada against Israel - 100's dead and injured
2000 Manila Bombing, Dec 30,2000
2001 4 Commercial airliners hijacked, 250+ murdered
2001 World Trade Center attacked, 2800+ murdered
2001 Flight 93 murders
2001 Pentagon attacked, 180+ murdered
2002 Reporter Daniel Pearl, kidnapped and murdered
2002 Philippines American missionary, Filipino nurse killed
2002 July 4, El Al attack Los Angeles LAX, several murdered
2002 Bali bombing - 200 dead, 300 injured
2002 Yemen, French Oil Tanker attacked
2002 Marines attacked / murdered in Kuwait
2002 Washington D.C. sniper
2002 Russian Theater attacked, 100+ dead
2002 Nigerian riots against Miss World Pageant, 200 dead, dozens injured
2002 Mombasa Hotel Attacked, 12 dead, dozens injured
2002 Israeli Boeing 757 attacked by missiles, fortunately no one injured
2002 August Hotel bombing in Jakarta, Indonesia. 12 dead, dozens injured.
2003 Rusian concert bombing
2003 Phillipines airport and market bombing
2003 Foiled SAM plot in the USA
2003 UN Baghdad HQ Bombing
on and on and on and on their terrorism has gone .........

---

Islamic Arabs Prove they are Peaceful

================= EXHIBIT 6 ================

Islamic Arabs Prove they are Peaceful

---

================= EXHIBIT 7 ================

Russia at Beslan.

---

---

================= EXHIBIT 8 ================

=========== Documents linking Atta, Saddam, Nidal, bin Ladin ===========

Handwritten letter dated Feb. 19, 1998 linking bin Laden and Saddam Hussein
discussing arrival of a secret envoy sent by bin Laden to Iraq.
The signature beneath the letter is a codename, "MDA" - the Mukhabarat.

---

================= EXHIBIT 9 ================

========= Chemical Warhead found in Kirkuk =============

Chemical warhead found at an Iraqi air base, marked with a green band,
the symbol for chemical weaponry. Trace amounts of a nerve agent were found
at two spots along the ~meter-long warhead. These amounts are consistent with
leakage from the chemically armed weapon. A 13-foot missile was found next to it.

---

================= EXHIBIT 10 ================

========= Halabja =========

Children, previously playing in Halabja
Victims of Saddams' WMD in March 1988.

---

[Just mythoughts]

Check this out and you will see what I mean about the 'evil' side of Hollywood.....


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1299251/posts

[kingsurfer]

The best way to neutralise the islamic threat is to fight back any attacks and destroy the prepertrators while bringing democracy and free press to those that wish to not live under dictators.

[Berosus]

"Personally I think the Pals of the West Bank should all be gathered up , at tank gun point if necessary , and relocated to a Pal nation created in the Sinai ."

Actually, there already IS a Palestinian state, and it's called Jordan. Jordan's land makes up three-fourths of the original Palestine Mandate that the British got after World War I. Until 1921, when they sliced it off to give one of their allies, King Abdullah of the Hashemite family, a place to call his own, it was called "Transjordanian Palestine." Then the name was shortened to Transjordan, and finally after the 1948 war, it became simply Jordan. What's more, nearly everybody in Jordan can be considered "Palestinians," the main exceptions being the Hashemites and the Bedouins. What the media and the governments of the world don't tell you is that they're trying to create a SECOND Palestinan state on the West Bank, to go with the original one on the East Bank.

I understand that Winston Churchill, who was inclined to favor Zionism, didn't like the idea of dividing Palestine, and called it "salami diplomacy."

[Alouette]

So Jesus really threw the moneychangers out of the Al Aqsa Mosque?

FRmail me to be added or removed from this Judaic/pro-Israel ping list.

WARNING: This is a high volume ping list

[Zionist Conspirator]

Speaking on Palestinian Authority (PA) TV on November 21, Palestinian historian ‘Issam Sisalem, one of the two “home historians” on PA TV, compared Jews to “parasitical worms” who make “false claims” and “Biblical lies.” Regarding Jerusalem, he explained that it has always belonged to Arabs, adding, “Everything on our land is holy to us and we will defend it and never be deceived, nor will we argue about biblical lies that penetrated the minds of some orientalists. Jerusalem has been the capital of our capitals since the dawn of history, and will remain so. We won't share it … The Torah disparages all of the prophets. It presents David as an adulterer and Solomon too. They say that the temple was here. What temple and what shtemple?! What archeological remains?”

There is a certain irony here. Anti-Semites are dismissing the Bible as "lies" in order to reject Jewish claims to Israel, yet domestically the secular leadership of the American Jewish community long ago decided that Enemy Number One was Fundamentalist Protestants (not Russian Orthodox or Ukrainians or Melkites or even Roman Catholics for that matter)--the very people who support Jewish claims to Jerusalem precisely because they accept that the TaNa"KH is the Word of G-d. In fact, these Jewish "leaders" (who would never "proselytize" chr*stians to become Noachides, seeing as how that is "intolerant") have done everything in their power to reward the most liberal chr*stians--precisely the ones who claim the Bible is mythology! Pro-Israel Fundamentalists for years had their faces spit in (yet they remained faithful, and may G-d reward them) while the John Shelby Spongs and higher critical archbishops of the world received "brotherhood" awards. And now lo and behold, it turns out that even liberal, secular Jews need the inerrancy of the Bible to prove their claim to Jerusalem. It's really delicious.

Every liberal, higher critical university in the country that specializes tearing the Torah to shreds is able to parade an endless line of even "black hat" rabbis (and Eastern Orthodox chr*stians, and Catholic priests, and ancient oriental chr*stians, and maybe even a Black Fundamentalist provided he is safely tucked away in a political department somewhere) to prove how "multicultural" they are, yet no white Fundamentalist has ever been invited to join the party. And those rabbis (and priests and ministers) never make so much as a peep about the blasphemy of HaShem's Torah that is going on. But of course, if some hapless "redneck" were to say something like "you must be born again" all heck would break loose!

What do you expect? The Jewish community--even the Orthodox Jewish community--has lived in a fundamentalist ghetto and taken no part in this particular battle of the culture war. In fact, it sometimes seems the only time they emerge is to join in attacking the defenders of the TaNa"KH because they don't understand that Jews shouldn't be converted to chr*stianity (I say if you want them to understand this, convert them all to Noachism!). Every other group in the country has been AWOL on this issue. The Catholic Church may be a leader in "life" issues but they are actually on the other side when it comes to the Torah.

Is it any wonder that the demythologizing of Berei'shit Bara', Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden, Metushelach's lifespan, Noah's Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc., would lead inevitably to the dymothologization of the Beit HaMiqdash??? What did you expect???

But despite this story (and it is very disturbing), will there be any change in this situation? Will rabbis who are professors at ivy league universities finally begin to find their voices when the Torah and Na"KH are declared to be forgeries and fairy tales? If not, why should they expect anyone else to be upset about islamic lies about David and Solomon? And will their supporters in the chr*stian community be rewarded or will they be slapped in the face again?

I seem to be a strange bird. I have often been accused of "chr*stian bashing." Yet I understand how they feel in a way that many Jews don't. I have indeed believed in speaking plainly and saying that chr*stianity is a fale religion and the Torah is true, and all non-Jews should reject whatever false religion they have inherited and embrace G-d's will for them, the Noachide Laws. But I have never understood why this position is so much worse than that advocated by far too many Jews: hypocritically boastingn of their tolerance of chr*stianity while loudly demanding that the entire chr*stian religion (which they so insist on "tolerating") be internally re-written until it suits them. "Proselytization" is honorable, but this "go ahead and stay what you are but change it" attitude cannot be anything other than absolutely maddening to any sincere chr*stian. And for those chr*stians out there, it is true that I come right out and say that I believe your religion is false, just as you tell me that mine is. But at least give me this: I have never patronized your religious beliefs with my "tolerance" while demanding you change everything about it that I don't like.

Jewish critics of chr*stianity should either stop the "tolerance" nonsense and proselytize chr*stians on behalf of the Noachide laws or else leave the Notzerim and their prayers alone (including those that refer to "perfidious Jews"). Period.

All right now . . . how many will make their campaign against this "palestinian" (???) lie merely part and parcel of their stand for HaShem and His Torah? And how many will scream on this one issue while continuing to heap praises and encomiums on Bible-hating liberal chr*stians while criticizing Fundamentalist ones (and without even having the decency to give them an alternative to what they have always known?).

HaShem is One. And so is His Truth. You can't be in favor of part of it and unconcerned with--or hostile to--another.

[Alouette]

Will rabbis who are professors at ivy league universities finally begin to find their voices when the Torah and Na"KH are declared to be forgeries and fairy tales?

I don't know of any Orthodox rabbis who are professors at Ivy League universities, and the "rabbis" who head up the "Biblical history" departments at Jewish Theological Seminary and Hebrew Union College are in the forefront of denying the truth of the Bible.

I seem to recall that the "Noachide" movement was initiated by the Rebbe as a response to non-Jews who frequently asked, "what message does Judaism have for non-Jews." He never encouraged Hasidim to actively preach "Noachism" to Christians when there are so many non-observant Jews who need to be brought back.

[hlmencken3]

Your frustration is understood, but perspective is needed.

The traditional teaching of all of historical Christianity is 'supersessionism' which logically denies any special Jewish theological claims to the land of Israel. Traditional Jews are hardly excited by Muslim or secular versions of these beliefs.
Free Republic seems an explicitly Christian place, and while others may be even welcome guests, a certain reserve should be shown in attacking Christian beliefs, even if such politeness is seldom returned.

As you should know, the mitzvah of informimg non-Jews of their Torah obligations is like any other mitzvah: It is a person-to-person specific action dependent on opportunity, not something generally engaged in for the sake of controversy.

And thanks for the Shabbat and Chanukah greetings.

Wishing you a week of light and joy!

[Zionist Conspirator]

I don't know of any Orthodox rabbis who are professors at Ivy League universities, and the "rabbis" who head up the "Biblical history" departments at Jewish Theological Seminary and Hebrew Union College are in the forefront of denying the truth of the Bible.

Last I heard, a Chassidic rabbi was the head of the Jewish studies program at Harvard University. Also all elite universities have Orthodox Jewish communities, though such communities sometimes have wildly modern ideas ("orthopraxy").

I seem to recall that the "Noachide" movement was initiated by the Rebbe as a response to non-Jews who frequently asked, "what message does Judaism have for non-Jews." He never encouraged Hasidim to actively preach "Noachism" to Christians when there are so many non-observant Jews who need to be brought back.

Granted, especially since Judaism, so far as I know, does not insist on "eternal damnation" for every single individual who dies without learning the truth (G-d judges each one of us ba'asher hu' sham). And granted that there are so many non-observant Jews that their worldview has come to be seen by many non-Jews as the Jewish worldview (G-d forbid!). However my point is that too many Jews who wouldn't dream of "proselytizing" chr*stians insist on rewriting their prayers, scriptures, and rituals in the name of "tolerance." Whatever the level of necessity of proselytization, it is much more honorable and to be preferred to this disgusting practice. How would Jews like Canaanites telling them that they're fine just as they are, then demanding the Torah be re-written to remove all passages offensive to Canaanites?

I apologize for my offensive manner of making my point, but I am very depressed about all this.

[Zionist Conspirator]

Your frustration is understood, but perspective is needed.

Thank you for understanding, and yes, I understand that my perspective is a bit one-sided.

The traditional teaching of all of historical Christianity is 'supersessionism' which logically denies any special Jewish theological claims to the land of Israel. Traditional Jews are hardly excited by Muslim or secular versions of these beliefs.

Chr*stianity is not a single religion but a whole plethora of religions and beliefs sharing absolutely nothing but a common vocabulary (which means completely different things to the various chr*stian groups). Classical chr*stianity is indeed supercessionist, and there is no way to reform that. However, the more extreme Biblicist Fundamentalist Protestant groups (who insist that chr*stian tradition has no authority and that all true and necessary religious teaching is found in their bible, to which they attach the same authority as Jews to the Torah) have a problem with this for the simple reason that the literal texts of the "old" and "new" testaments contradict each other. Therefore some of them have adopted the doctrine of "parallel and equal tracks," in which Jews are "saved" by Torah observance and non-Jews by being "born again" (though they still feel it necessary to insist that J*sus is the one doing the saving in each case). This way the literal truth of "both" testaments is preserved.

I also continue to insist that most Jews simply do not understand the hunger for things Jewish and Hebrew among my people. Too often the tendency of Fundamentalist Protestants to want to celebrate Jewish holidays and practice Jewish rituals is dismissed as a sinister and dishonest proselytary technique (and there is no denying that sometimes this is the case). But many times the people are simply starving for BIBLICAL things which mainstream chr*stianity refuses to give them, insisting that they were replaced by rosary beads and masses. Fundamentalists could turn to Catholicism, Byzantine Orthodoxy, the Armenians, the Copts, the Ethiopians, the Malankaras of India, the Syrian Jacobites, the Maronites, the Assyrians, the Chaldaeans, and any number of ancient churches to put them in touch with chr*stian antiquity, but aside from a few intellectuals they simply do not do this. None of those groups has anything the Fundamentalists want. The only religion practiced in the "rednecks'" Bible is Judaism and it is the Jews alone to whom "rednecks" turn for something ancient, primal, and true. I am not denying the absolutely maddeningly stubborn attachment of my people to the Nazarene, but they insist that the "new testament" is merely an extension of the TaNa"KH and have the greatest difficulty seeing it any other way. But even so, they don't trust all those ancient chr*stian communities. They only trust the Jews.

I suppose that doesn't make a lick of sense to you, does it?

Free Republic seems an explicitly Christian place, and while others may be even welcome guests, a certain reserve should be shown in attacking Christian beliefs, even if such politeness is seldom returned.

Free Republic is a conventional American conservative place which means it is primarily libertarian, and it is filled with atheists and agnostics. There is a small coterie of evolutionists who insist on ridiculing anyone who believes the Berei'shit Bara' even though they insist they would have no objection to religious people believing every other miracle and "violation of natural law" in history if they would only accept evolution (which is strange, since evolution rests on uniformitarianism which would logically make all the other miracles just as mythical as Sheishet Yemei Berei'shit). I myself have been on the receiving end of their scorn so that I don't even mess with them any more (the only people who do are the Fundamentalist Protestants--another indication that they seem to be the only people left in the world who actually care about this stuff). Certainly the Catholics and Eastern Orthodox here are not creationists. In fact, they seem to insist on at least the possibility of Darwinian evolution as a litmus test of their orthodoxy.

But even more to the point, I used to be a chr*stian so I know how they feel. And I know when we tell them they are wrong and that J*sus is a false "gxd" that it hurts them (it used to hurt me to hear that). But however much it hurts they at least can understand this. After all, as Fundamentalists, they sort of expect people of other faiths to have the same dedication to their own beliefs. So however much it hurts, they can respect being told that. What they too often here, however is something like "I'm better than you because I'm more tolerant" or "I can accept your beliefs but you can't accept mine. Now kindly re-write your prayers to satisfy my liberalism." How could any sincere chr*stian understand, let alone respect, such hypocrisy? If Jews simply cannot make proselytization of non-Jews to the Noachide Laws a priority, so be it. But to continually be told by Jews and in the name of Judaism that they should be cease being conservative chr*stians and become liberal chr*stians (who insist the Torah is primitive mythology)? I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I respect you a great deal and my knowledge of Torah will never be a drop in the ocean compared to what you knew as a mere child, but there is no way in the world you can understand how such behavior hurts a Fundamentalist Protestant who practically "worships" (chas vechalilah!) the Jewish People, as a frustrated Fundamentalist chr*stian on this forum once complained.

As you should know, the mitzvah of informimg non-Jews of their Torah obligations is like any other mitzvah: It is a person-to-person specific action dependent on opportunity, not something generally engaged in for the sake of controversy.

Would that Jewish proselytization on behalf of liberal chr*stianity were carried on in the same manner!

Again I will invoke my own experience. I am sure that to you my people are the "ultimate chr*stians," the very same people who committed pogroms in the Ukraine, but we are not. We are a theological mongrel, "old testament chr*stians" as even some understanding Jews have termed us. And I long ago left my little Bible Belt world to look the real chr*stianity straight in the face, and a more hideious monstrosity I have never beheld. It is so thoroughly alien to anyone from a Bible Belt background that it no longer has the philosophical underpinnings to justify it. Furthermore the authentic chr*stians (Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Orientals) hate Fundamentalist Protestants with a passion every bit as great as some Jews do. I know this first hand! And I came to see that J*sus doesn't belong to my people and never has. He belongs to them. He's their "gxd," not ours. Yet my people scream his name with an assurance that no one else has. They think he loves them. Well, I learned that he doesn't. Nothing is more heartbreaking to me than to hear the invocations of and prayers to the "precious J*sus" by people whose religious beliefs are radically different from those of authentic chr*stians and whom those chr*stians hold in absolute and total contempt.

Not to get overly theological here, but Fundamentalist Protestants actually believe that J*sus saves them. Historical chr*stianity insists that "salvation" must be "appropriated" by a lifetime of observance of the "new law," which to a Fundamentalist sounds like merely irreverently replacing G-d's Biblical Law with a post-Biblical chr*stian one (which is exactly what it is). My people don't understand that "J*sus" expects them to save themselves by their own works. That being the case, if they only understood this, they would surely realize that chr*stianity is an imposture and that the only works G-d has ever authorized are the ones of Torah/Noachide Law. By "abolishing" the Torah and merely replacing it with another law the historical chr*stians are the most hypocritical religion on the face of the earth.

And my life experience has been to learn all this the hard way and to have to hear my people still screaming the name of J*sus while the authentic chr*stians hold them in contempt. How could anyone who hasn't walked this path possibly understand?

And thanks for the Shabbat and Chanukah greetings.

I wish you also a shavu`a ve chodesh tov!

Wishing you a week of light and joy!

Unfortunately, I seem to be consumed by a ruach ra`ah at the moment, with the truth of Chanukkah and the falsity and danger of chr*stmas obscured by a liberal campaign against the former and "for" the latter that only obscures and hides the issues involved (as well as drives many Fundamentalist people who would otherwise evaluate chr*stmas in light of the Bible to endorse it uncritically merely because of the ACLU). Few and evil have been my days and optimism has never been one of my traits. But HaShem will triumph in the end, whether in our lifetimes or not. G-d forgive me if my zeal is for my own honor rather than His.

[SJackson]

If you'd like to be on this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.

[rmlew]

The Philistines ceased toi exist around the 9th Century CE. The Palestinians are not their progeny.

[Convert from ECUSA]

The heathens want to revise history and wipe out all connections of historical Judaism to the Temple Mount, and when Jews rightly stand up for it, the heathens go berzerk. They'd like to "prove" that the only connections to the Temple Mount area are those associated with Muhammed, and justify that only Islam should occupy it and build mosques on it.

But there is a Book which talks about a God Who made promises to a people and a land. That Book is many centuries older that the heathens' book, and the God mentioned in the first Book is the true One; whereas "allah"......likely a demon disguised as an angel of light, as St. Paul warned about.

This "palestinian historian" and those like him are trying to fight against the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God Jesus said is the God of the Living! They have about as much chance of winning against Him as a gnat does in stopping a bulldozer.