Evidence Cigarette Tax Hikes Increase Crime, But Don't Reduce Teenage Smoking

Erin Schiller (Pacific Research Institute), "Smoking Up North," Washington Times, February 11, 1998. ^

[CSM]

"And your reasoning for this?"

Because he needs a new monikor!

[CSM]

"I am a constitutional conservative, one who believes that the Constitution should be enforced EXACTLY as it is written & amended. My political heroes include Thomas Jefferson, George Washington, James Madison, Robert E. Lee, Joseph Farah (of WorldNetDaily), & the Honorable Representative from Texas, Dr. RON PAUL (God bless him!), just to name a few. My respect for President George Bush has significantly declined over the last few months: his willingness to adhere to his Oath of Office is a terribly poor, but @ least he is not the CRIMINAL that Bill Clinton is. It is clear to me, however, that no matter which of the 2 main political parties are in the White House, the size of the federal government will continue to grow, & grow, & grow.....it has been doing so ever since the South lost it's War for Independence, & now it's only a matter of how fast it will increase beyond its Constitutional restraints. There is no doubt in my mind that our Constitutional Republic has been tossed into "the ash heap of history". Will this nation EVER return to constitutionally-limited government, or DOES ANYONE REALLY CARE????" From your profile. Time to make some edits.

[CSM]

"I didn't mean a word about tobacco that I said...I just tried to make folks know what those of us who enjoy marijuana are going thru, that's all. It's only fair, isn't it?"

Fine. But you picked the wrong crowd to try to bring to your side. Most of the pro-private property crowd is more than willing to support your side of the pro-individual choice crowd. The problem becomes energy resources. You need to realize that your comments are very close to actual comments posted by gnatzies. And the sarcasm was not self evident.

[mugs99]

ROFL!
The Black Market will always supply demand when government tries to control free trade. This affects more than tobacco.

When California levied the Hollywood Tax on tobacco many smokers turned to the Black Market. They found that they could also buy cheap music, movies, games, software and drugs, both prescription and dope, from the Black Market.

You can thank the government for introducing millions of people to the wonders of the Black Market!

[mysterio]

Facts will never slow the nico-nazis. They will lie and lie again until the sheep of America demand the heads of smokers be placed on pikes on the outskirts of the city. Here are some more facts :

1. Smokers will never gain any of their rights back that have been taken away.

2. Smoking in public will eventually be banned everywhere, probably completely in the next 20 years.

3. More and more jobs will require that their workers be non smokers and people will get fired for smoking, even if they smoke privately.

4. Nothing can be done to stop any of this. No one will rise up. The reason? Americans only pay lip service to freedom, property rights, and the Constitution. What people really want is to be told what to do so they can feel safe. This is how 90+ percent of people feel, even if they won't admit it. They will swear up and down that freedom is important, and they will vote against freedom every chance they get.

[mugs99]

Smoking in public will eventually be banned everywhere, probably completely in the next 20 years

At the rate it's going some states, like Utah, will be calling for the death penalty for smokers!

[mysterio]

I wouldn't be surprised.

[GLDNGUN]

Shouldn't the facts of this story say something about the futility of marijuana prohibition, & get the drug warriors like yourself to take notice?

GIVE UP!!!!!

LOL Ahh, yes, the plaintive cries of somebody who wants drugs legalized. I will try to make this simple. We currently have a black market for drugs in this country. The purpose of the WOD is to oppose this black market. Now, those who are in favor of drugs being legalized are always wailing "if you legalize them, the black market will disappear!". Of course they add "and tax the heck out of it". These of course are the most absolutely idiotic ideas ever conceived. This story demonstrates a black market certainly can and will exist for products that are "legal" and taxed. So next time you draw up your list of all the "great" reasons why drugs should be legal, you'll have to cross this one off.

[GLDNGUN]

I'm not sure you got the point. The article says that due to high taxes, a black market has opened up.

Oh, yes, I get the point. Substitute pot for tobacco in this story, and you'll see one of the "legalize our pot NOW!" arguments go up in smoke. So to speak. ;-)

[Liberal Classic]

And the sarcasm was not self evident.

The best sarcasm never is.

[television is just wrong]

You simply cannot legislate safety and health to people. People are going to do as they please.

Stop trying to make laws to protect people from their own habits and destiny.

[cougar_mccxxi]

"Americans only pay lip service to freedom, property rights, and the Constitution."

How right you are. And when some actually do defend freedom they are laughed at as right wing cooks.

[Ken H]

Now here's my question: If cigarets were banned, would the black market and associated violent crime likely increase or decrease?

Oh, yes, I get the point. Substitute pot for tobacco in this story, and you'll see one of the "legalize our pot NOW!" arguments go up in smoke.

No, you managed to miss the point and dodge my question at the same time.

This article is pointing out the predictable results of overtaxation, ie the opportunity for black marketeers to profit.

Prohibition has the same effect as overtaxation in creating a profit opportunity. Profits are why people risk jail to sell contraband, yes?

I ask again: Would banning cigarets increase or decrease the size of the black market for cigarets?

[Ken H]

And when some actually do defend freedom they are laughed at as right wing cooks.

They're the ones who carry a copy of the Constitution with them in the kitchen:)

[DJ MacWoW]

'cuz now they know how those of us who enjoy marijuana feel.

Not really. I've never enjoyed impaired judgement.

[GLDNGUN]

No, I didn't dodge or miss your point. I was simply making mine. As for your question, since the cigarette genie has been out of the bottle since its discovery, trying to jam it back in now would very likely result in an increased black market, especially initially. This is why it would be insane to legalize and tax drugs. Abuse would only increase, the idea of the black market for drugs disappearing would be proven in idiotic fairy tale, and the problems we'd have due to an increase in drug usage would much greater than the ones we face today. Again, the answer to the War on the illegal drug market is NOT to legalize and tax drugs, as this article provides a prime example of a continued black market for even a legal product. That was my point.

[libertyman]

I wasn't talking about "impaired judgement" as you call it. I was talking about having to live w/ the fact that you are considered to be a criminal for doing something that doesn't violate the God-given rights to life, liberty, & the pursuit of happiness of another human being. Not only being a criminal, facing the threat of having your property, job, children, & freedom taking away from you by simply growing/using a PLANT.

THIS? In a nation that call itself "the land of the free"? Please don't get me wrong now--I'm no Michael Moore left-wing nutcase (I despise that S.O.B., to put it mildly). I just bitterly disagree w/ the FEDERAL government being involved in this issue, w/ the exception of protecting our national borders--when the Constitution doesn't give it the authority to do so, & the Feds spit in the face of the 9th & 10th Amendments on this subjet (as well as many others).

[Ken H]

As for your question, since the cigarette genie has been out of the bottle since its discovery, trying to jam it back in now would very likely result in an increased black market, especially initially.

Agreed.

This is why it would be insane to legalize and tax drugs. Abuse would only increase, the idea of the black market for drugs disappearing would be proven in idiotic fairy tale,

You are missing the point about overtaxation. When a tax is too high, it creates a black market.

Take alcohol as an example. There is not much of a black market because alcohol taxes are not so high as to cause people to avoid them. Now, slap on a $5/beer tax and watch the black market thrive.

and the problems we'd have due to an increase in drug usage would much greater than the ones we face today.

Your assertion assumes a significant number of people who would abuse drugs, but are only prevented from doing so by the laws. I think that's highly questionable. Illegal drugs are cheaper and purer than ever and available to anyone who wants them. The WOD has utterly failed to control supply.

Again, the answer to the War on the illegal drug market is NOT to legalize and tax drugs, as this article provides a prime example of a continued black market for even a legal product. That was my point.

If drugs were taxed at a level similar to alcohol, would you expect the black market to be similar in size? If not, then why not?

One more question: Would there be more money or less money for terrorists if drugs were regulated and taxed like alcohol?

[DJ MacWoW]

I wasn't talking about "impaired judgement" as you call it.

Of course you weren't. The fact that you want to legalise something that impairs a persons judgement and screws up their faculties isn't part of your message.

THIS? In a nation that call itself "the land of the free"?

Yes. I have a right to be safe from people with "plant induced impairments". Not everyone stays home when enjoying the "plant" of their choice.

[GLDNGUN]

Your assertion assumes a significant number of people who would abuse drugs, but are only prevented from doing so by the laws. I think that's highly questionable.

Then we'll have to agree to disagree. Can you provide a list of crimes that would not increase if their activities suddenly became legal? I sure can't.

Illegal drugs are cheaper and purer than ever and available to anyone who wants them. The WOD has utterly failed to control supply.

So if drugs are pure, easily available, and cheap how would having government-supplied drugs that are pure, easily available and taxed solve anything? I'll say it again: the "legalize my drugs NOW" crowd adds "and tax the heck out of it!". So which is it? Do we want the government to supply pure drugs tax-free which will surely lead to a big increase in usage and all of the associated problems? Or do we want the government to supply heavily taxed drugs, in which case it will be undercut by the black market and have solved absolutely nothing?

You can call the WOD a failure or whatever you want. The fact is, it is infinitely better than the alternative. It's not even close.