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I Have Solved The Riddle Of The Sphinx, Says Frenchman
The Telegraph (UK) ^ | 12-14-2004 | Nic Fleming

Posted on 12/13/2004 5:36:33 PM PST by blam

I have solved riddle of the Sphinx, says Frenchman

By Nic Fleming, Science Correspondent
(Filed: 14/12/2004)

Archaeologists, who are able to tell us who built the pyramids of Ancient Egypt, have puzzled over the riddle of the Sphinx for generations.

The identity of the ruler who ordered the building of the 65ft high, 260ft long limestone half-human statue that has guarded the Giza Plateau for 4,500 years has been lost in the sands of time.

Workers on the Sphinx in a television reconstruction

Now, following a 20-year re-examination of historical records and uncovering new evidence, Vassil Dobrev, a French Egyptologist, claims to have proved that the largest single stone statue on Earth is the work of a forgotten pharaoh.

The most popular theory of the origins of the Sphinx is that it was conceived by Khafre, a king of the Fourth Dynasty whose pyramid sits behind the statue.

However, in Secrets of the Sphinx, a documentary to be broadcast tonight on Channel Five, Dr Dobrev says it was created by Djedefre, Khafre's half brother and a son of Khufu, the builder of the Great Pyramid.

Dr Dobrev, of the French Archaeological Institute in Cairo, said: "It is incredible. The most important image in Egypt, the Sphinx, and we can't say who it was with certainty.

"This is the first time it has been proposed that the Sphinx has been built after the death of Khufu by his son Djedefre who succeeded him."

Khafre, the builder of the nearby second pyramid at Giza who ruled from 2558 to 2532 BC, has traditionally been credited with creating the Sphinx.

He is referred to in the Dream Stella, a stone tablet that tells of a young prince who dreamed that the Sphinx promised to make him king if he cleared the sand from its paws. He built both the pyramid behind the Sphinx and two temples in front of it.

However Dr Dobrev noticed that the causeway connecting Khafre's pyramid to the temples was built around the Sphinx - meaning it was already in existence.

All known statues of Khafre show him with a beard - but the Sphinx has none. Dr Dobrev says fragments of a giant beard found beneath the sphinx that survive in Cairo Museum were a later addition.

Several years ago Rainer Stadelmann, the former director of the German Institute of Archaeology in Cairo, suggested an alternative theory, that Khafre's father Khufu - the builder of the Great Pyramid at Giza - created the Sphinx.

A small statuette of Khufu, the only commonly acknowledged image of the pharaoh, shows him to have a very square chin, like the Sphinx.

Dr Dobrev says he has uncovered other images of Khufu, none of which have beards, and that this proves the sphinx represents Khufu.

The nemes, the sphinx's headdress, has markings representing two small pleats and one large. Khufu is shown with a similar nemes in at least one other statue.

Dr Dobrev says the Sphinx was built by Djedefre in the image of his father Khufu, identifying him with the sun god Ra in order to restore respect for their dynasty.

George Reisner, a respected American archaeologist in the 1930s, portrayed Djedefre as a plotter whose tomb was built away from Giza because he tried to murder his brother Kawab. Dr Dobrev says Reisner's theory is unsubstantiated. He asks why a carved stone list of donations made to Kawab's daughter would have an emblem of Djedefre on it if he was her father's murderer. He says that Djedefre was a visionary builder who built a sun temple at Abu Roash, six miles from Giza, a structure so far believed by archaeologists to be a pyramid.

Dr Dobrev re-examined graffiti carved by workers at a site called Zawiyet el-Aryan and believes this shows he has uncovered Djedefre's pyramid tomb

Dr Nigel Strudwick, of the British Museum, said: "It is not implausible. But I would need more explanation, such as why he thinks the pyramid at Abu Roash is a sun temple, something I'm sceptical about. I have never heard anyone suggest that the name in the graffiti at Zawiyet el-Aryan mentions Djedefre.

"I remain more convinced by the traditional argument of it being Khafre or the more recent theory of it being Khufu."


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ancientegypt; archaeology; djedefre; egypt; frenchman; ggg; giza; godsgravesglyphs; greatsphinx; history; khafre; khufu; riddle; solved; sphinx; vassildobrev
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To: blam
...However Dr Dobrev noticed that the causeway connecting Khafre's pyramid to the temples was built around the Sphinx - meaning it was already in existence.

Let me see if I have this straight... The Sphynx was built by Khafre's half brother (and Khufu's son), Djedefre, who followed him as Pharoah... and this Frenchman with the Russian name deduced all this because Khafre's causeway from his Pyramid JOGGED to avoid the already existing Sphynx???? Did Djedefre build it BEFORE he became Pharoah...

NOSE PICKING! He reached in and found a bugger and now is explaining the whichness of the why because of what he found on the tip of his finger!

51 posted on 12/14/2004 12:11:48 AM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: blam
...All known statues of Khafre show him with a beard - but the Sphinx has none. Dr Dobrev says fragments of a giant beard found beneath the sphinx that survive in Cairo Museum were a later addition.

What did they stick the tons of beard on with? Egyptian Beard Glue? Gum Arabic???

52 posted on 12/14/2004 12:14:04 AM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: M Kehoe
What has four legs in the morning, two legs in the afternoon, and three legs in the evening?

The cootie in the Cootie Game being played all day by two toddlers.

53 posted on 12/14/2004 12:16:05 AM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: rmmcdaniell
Although popular legend blames Napoleon and his troops during the French campaign in Egypt (1798-1801) for having shot the nose off the Great Sphinx, in fact this story just isn't true.

It has never "rung true" that Napoleon would have permitted such desecration. Napoleon is credited with the CREATION of Egyptology as a science. It was he who brought Champollion to Egypt to study the ruins.

54 posted on 12/14/2004 12:23:37 AM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: muawiyah
Drought That Destroyed A Civilisation
55 posted on 12/14/2004 5:46:16 AM PST by blam
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To: asp1
The water damage to the Sphinx doesn't mean it's really old. It just means it has suffered water damage. The rock is a mix of hard and soft stone, something that get's glossed over in the reading or reporting. And effects of water on stone have been largely misreported or outright lied about in science for years. Stellagmites and Stellagtites of a length of 5 feet can be shown to grow over a period of less than 50 years, something that has been said takes thousands - even millions of years (for the sake of the evolution crowd no doubt). The weathering of the rock if for no other reason than what it is, could likely be counted for on a period of a few hundred years or a few thousand. There's no real reason to expect longer than that given that scientists can't even honestly account for any exacting level of rainfall or flooding beyond the last 100 years. They're making guesses and not even what I'd call "educated" ones.

Their guessing is based on the same faulty logic that discusses "anual rings" in polar ice core samples. Glacier Girl was covered in hundreds of feet of snow and ice pack in less than 50 years with hundreds of "annual rings". By faulty science, we'd have to call recent recorded history an utter lie and place WWII back several hundred years. That or admit the scientists are clueless and bs us to look like they know what they're talking about.

56 posted on 12/14/2004 6:06:39 AM PST by Havoc (Reagan was right and so was McKinley. Down with free trade.)
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To: Havoc

You simply check the Carbon 14 levels in the air inside the ice. I don't believe they rely on ice rings.


57 posted on 12/14/2004 8:24:20 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: blam
Here's an oldie (7 Jul 99):
Sahara's abrupt desertification
by Harvey Leifert
German scientists, employing a new climate system model, have concluded that this desertification was initiated by subtle changes in the Earth's orbit and strongly amplified by resulting atmospheric and vegetation feedbacks in the subtropics. The timing of this transition was, they report, mainly governed by a global interplay among atmosphere, ocean, sea ice, and vegetation... the model led to the conclusion that the desertification of North Africa began abruptly 5,440 years ago (+/- 30 years). Before that time, the Sahara was covered by annual grasses and low shrubs, as evidenced by fossilized pollen.

58 posted on 12/14/2004 9:21:56 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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another oldie:
Evolution in Your Face
by Patrick Huyghe
Omni
Lake Victoria, Africa's largest lake, is home to more than 300 species of cichlids. These fish, which are popular in aquariums, are deep-bodied and have one nostril, rather than the usual two, on each side of the head. Seismic profiles and cores of the lake taken by a team headed by Thomas C. Johnson of the University of Minnesota, reveal that the lake dried up completely about 12,400 years ago. This means that the rate of speciation of cichlid fishes has been extremely rapid: something on average of one new species every 40 years!
Interesting that Lake Victoria ceased to be, then came back, and all so recently.

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59 posted on 12/14/2004 9:24:54 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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To: Swordmaker

Djedefre preceded Khafre on the throne. His burial complex at Abu Roash north of Giza was left unfinished, presumably because of his short reign, and was picked apart for building stone over the centuries. Djedefre's brother didn't bother to finish it either, making it plausible that there was an intrafamily struggle of some kind. Menkaure, son and successor of Khafre, wasn't able to build nearly as big a pyramid at Giza, and his successor reverted to a mastaba, constructed some miles south. It's also plausible to suggest that Egypt was coming apart, either due to the squabbles and dynastic struggles, or due to the weather, or due to a massive migration into the Nile Valley by other ethnic groups, or some combination of these.


60 posted on 12/14/2004 9:36:21 AM PST by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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To: muawiyah

Carbon 14 - bunk. And yes, they do rely on the ice rings. Where have you been?


61 posted on 12/14/2004 11:57:37 AM PST by Havoc (Reagan was right and so was McKinley. Down with free trade.)
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To: blam
I Have Solved The Riddle Of The Sphinx, Says Frenchman ....Frenchmen are always wrong?

.........The British Wax Museum would say its really Darwin?

.........Maybe,.....it's 'Job' himself.

62 posted on 12/14/2004 12:05:28 PM PST by maestro
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To: Reaganesque

Perhaps he should just borrow my very own "Theory of the Brontasaurus."


63 posted on 12/14/2004 12:11:38 PM PST by PoorMuttly ("The right of the People to be Muttly shall not be infringed,")
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To: Rockpile
At the time they began expanding the Sphinx (carving out the body below the original mushroom ~ now carved into a head ) the primary constellation used for most references was the very large one we now call ARGUS, which is made up of several modern constellation definitions.

You can project it on the Mediterranean world as a kind of map. It was a handy reference for mariners in those days.

64 posted on 12/14/2004 6:45:09 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: blam

is that as in "solv-ed" by Inspector Clouseau?
(sorry, I couldn't help myself...)


65 posted on 12/14/2004 6:46:29 PM PST by VOA
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To: SunkenCiv
His burial complex at Abu Roash north of Giza was left unfinished, presumably because of his short reign, and was picked apart for building stone over the centuries.

Yet he still had time to build the Sphinx?? Doubtful.

66 posted on 12/14/2004 8:03:28 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Swordmaker
Nope, he didn't build the Sphinx. There's a New Kingdom copy of an Old Kingdom record which refers to the repair of the Sphinx by Khufu, father of Djedefre and Khafre. If Rainer Stadelmann is correct and Khufu built the Sphinx, why would it need repair? Did the fake beard fall off again? ;')

Minerva July-Aug 2000 had an article containing abstracts of papers given at the Egyptian conference back in late March/early April:
The Great Sphinx of Giza -- A Creation of Khufu/Cheops (Rainer Stadelmann) -- The so-called Dream Stela of Tuthmosis IV does not mention that the Great Sphinx was created by Khafre (Chephren), but the older stela of Amenhotep II mentions both Khufu and Khafre. It is located within the quarries of Khufu. Since the causeway of Khafre runs slightly to the southeast, rather than straight to the east, and since his valley temple lies beyond the axis of his pyramid complex, also toward the southeast, it is suggested that it was to avoid something important that already stood there -- the Great Sphinx. The features also point to Khufu -- the square face and broad chin, the pleated nemes without a band, the wide open eyes and large ears, and the fact the statue was beardless in the Old Kingdom.
This is interesting in that (unlike Zahi "Zowie" Hawass) Rainer Stadelmann is actually a scholar. My view is that the head (which has been exposed, unlike most of the body which has been buried in sand for most of the last 3000 years at least) should be dated using cosmic ray exposure dating. The head isn't that of Khafre. It is also out of scale with the body (this has been pointed out by many people for many years). The head was probably recarved during the Ethiopian dynasty (given the anatomical affinity with black Africa which has been pointed out at least three times in the past couple of centuries).

67 posted on 12/14/2004 9:25:18 PM PST by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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To: blam

[ping, with a reprise clipped from one of my replies in another topic]

In "COUNTING THE STONES: How Many Blocks in Khufu's Great Pyramid?" by Anthony Sakovich, KMT A MODERN JOURNAL OF ANCIENT EGYPT, VOLUME 13, Number 3, FALL 2002, a number of approximately 4 million is given for the number of stones in the Khufu pyramid. The largest stones are some of the corbels, the rest vary a great deal in size. The most common size runs about 2 tons.

Contrast this to Zahi Hawass, who claimed a few years ago that 2.3 million (the commonly used figure for the number of stones) was far too HIGH, and that the average weight of the stones was around 1000 pounds, or even less.


68 posted on 01/09/2005 8:10:05 AM PST by SunkenCiv (the US population in the year 2100 will exceed a billion, perhaps even three billion.)
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To: RikaStrom
proved that the largest single stone statue on Earth is the work of a forgotten pharaoh.

See, I told you Yu-Gi-Oh was real.


69 posted on 01/09/2005 8:15:24 AM PST by humblegunner (And who knows what else?)
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To: blam

Bush's Fault!

Bump


70 posted on 01/09/2005 8:19:55 AM PST by JoeSixPack1
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To: muawiyah

No way it was a mushroom. I'm no Coptic studies guy, but I don't buy this for a minute. Are you suggesting that all the headresses of this shape are modeled after A. muscaria?


71 posted on 01/09/2005 9:32:54 AM PST by dinodino
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To: CriticalJ

I think the original riddle was . . What does a frenchman do standing on three legs, standing on 2 legs, or sitting down? The answer Surrender, of course!


72 posted on 01/09/2005 9:39:40 AM PST by 2nd Amendment
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To: SunkenCiv
I always thought the Sphinx was modeled after the Pharaoh's favorite dog...


73 posted on 01/09/2005 9:42:26 AM PST by bwteim
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To: blam

None of these pharoahs built it anymore than Donald TRump built the Trump Towers.

They may have caused it to be built, but it was the Egyptian architects and slaves who built it.


74 posted on 01/09/2005 9:44:10 AM PST by Beckwith (John, you said I was going to be the First Lady. As of now, you're on the couch.)
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To: muawiyah

Is that a real mushroom? And if so is that a "magic mushroom"?


75 posted on 01/09/2005 9:46:05 AM PST by winodog (I am gonna stop calling them liberals. They are humanists. Liberal is actually a good word)
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To: blam
I'm with you. It is unfortunate that some Egyptologists are so dogmatic. I also have started to be swayed by the argument that the pyramids are "cement" and not stone.
76 posted on 01/09/2005 9:50:24 AM PST by Straight Vermonter (Liberalism: The irrational fear of self reliance.)
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To: bwteim
Hey, that's plausible. ;')
Anubis

77 posted on 01/09/2005 1:34:53 PM PST by SunkenCiv (the US population in the year 2100 will exceed a billion, perhaps even three billion.)
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To: Straight Vermonter
Good choice, IMHO. I read Davidovits' book a while back, bought it from William Corliss' catalog, and found it quite compelling. One of the arguments generally raised against it is that the stone from the pyramid(s) matches such-and-such a quarry. Yet there's nothing concrete (sorry) on which to base that conclusion. :')

The Pyramids: An Enigma Solved The Pyramids:
An Enigma Solved

by Joseph Davidovits
Margaret Morris

other edition

used the French language edition for the cover here. :')
78 posted on 01/09/2005 1:52:38 PM PST by SunkenCiv (the US population in the year 2100 will exceed a billion, perhaps even three billion.)
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search for "Campbell's Tomb"
Google
see the in reply to link for another link to another FR topic, or not...
Campbells Tomb
The shaft leading to the so called 'Campbell's Tomb'. Named after a 19th century traveller. It was originally a 4th Dynasty tomb. It is situated close to the Sphinx.

79 posted on 01/09/2005 2:04:13 PM PST by SunkenCiv (the US population in the year 2100 will exceed a billion, perhaps even three billion.)
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To: bwteim

from one of the more solid edges of the fringe...

On the Sphinx
Alan F. Alford
http://www.eridu.co.uk/Author/Indexed_Quotations/Sphinx/sphinx.html


80 posted on 01/09/2005 2:08:12 PM PST by SunkenCiv (the US population in the year 2100 will exceed a billion, perhaps even three billion.)
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To: humblegunner

RME!


81 posted on 01/09/2005 3:27:59 PM PST by RikaStrom
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To: blam
Vassil Dobrev, a French Egyptologist

Is there really such a displince as Egyptologist and who would trust a French one?

Yes, I know some make claims that there is.

82 posted on 01/09/2005 3:32:16 PM PST by razorback-bert
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To: rmmcdaniell
In 1380 A.D. the Sphinx fell victim to the iconoclastic ardor of a fanatical Muslim ruler, who caused deplorable injuries to the head.

Some things never change. And never WILL change.

83 posted on 01/09/2005 4:16:07 PM PST by my_pointy_head_is_sharp
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To: blam

Mark for later reading.


84 posted on 01/09/2005 4:33:45 PM PST by Blue Eyes (I love Lucy. How 'bout you? Do you love Lucy, too?)
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To: dinodino
It started out as a mushroom. The face of a man was carved into it. The "headdress" is an artifact, not part of the original object. The body of the Sphinx was constructed by the taking away of blocks of stone to be put into the pyramids.

It's always about narcotics. You knew that didn't you?

Ancient religions commonly relied on hallucinogenics and psychotropics.

This is all about SOMA.

85 posted on 01/09/2005 4:50:16 PM PST by muawiyah ((just making sure we dot the i's, cross the t's, and leave enough room for the ZIP Code)
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To: blam
Fans of the Sphynx are called.....

Drum Roll......

Sphynxters.

86 posted on 01/09/2005 4:52:30 PM PST by Radioactive
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To: Straight Vermonter
Egyptian limestone is simply lighter than clay. If you soaked clay to the point where it became viscous, you could probably float limestone blocks in it. So, build a box around a block. Leave a gap. Pour in clay.

There is at least one ancient Egyptian picture showing the process.

87 posted on 01/09/2005 4:52:41 PM PST by muawiyah ((just making sure we dot the i's, cross the t's, and leave enough room for the ZIP Code)
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To: blam
There once was a Sphinx from Kartoum

Took a lesbian up to his room

They argued all night

over who had the right

To do what and with which

and to whom's Sphinctum


88 posted on 01/09/2005 4:54:01 PM PST by Young Werther
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To: my_pointy_head_is_sharp
Amazingly, the Romans more than 1000 years earlier saw the same injuries and blamed them on the barbaric Greeks who came before them.

I suspect the early SOMA users defaced the Sphinx face shortly after its construction out of anger ovewr the destruction of one of their more symbolic seit stones.

89 posted on 01/09/2005 4:54:47 PM PST by muawiyah ((just making sure we dot the i's, cross the t's, and leave enough room for the ZIP Code)
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To: Ken H
I Have Solved The Riddle Of The Sphinx, Says Frenchman

It was Pharoah Mustard. In the King's Library. With an asp.

90 posted on 01/09/2005 5:00:45 PM PST by small voice in the wilderness (Quick, act casual. If they sense scorn and ridicule, they'll flee..)
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To: muawiyah

A mushroom with a body and legs? Also, I don't recall hearing of any ritualistic use of mushrooms by the Egyptians; seeing as how they made nice paintings depicting all sorts of rituals and wrote up detailed recipes, this seems strange. Can you point to any texts which detail mushroom use?


91 posted on 01/09/2005 5:05:10 PM PST by dinodino
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To: dinodino
Befor the Egyptians moved to the banks of the Nile (shortly after the creation of the Sahara desert), they wondered around the grasslands and forests hunting and doing all sorts of stuff.

People from further East, had penetrated this wild zone and were "dong their thing".

The "mushroom" was a natural object. There was no body or legs at the time. That awaited the time far in the future when the Egyptians would dig down into the sand, cut block and b build pyramids.

They simply left the mushroom intact until they cut the face into it.

It's kind of like how the Moslems took over Saint Sophia. They left the building but added minarets.

92 posted on 01/09/2005 5:15:20 PM PST by muawiyah ((just making sure we dot the i's, cross the t's, and leave enough room for the ZIP Code)
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To: M Kehoe

"What has four legs in the morning, two legs in the afternoon, and three legs in the evening?"

Man. That's a tuffy.


93 posted on 01/09/2005 5:17:15 PM PST by cowtowney
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To: muawiyah
Texts regarding the use of SOMA occur in the very first writing of the Sumerians (who invented writing). They may also be found in the Upanishads.

Although Egypt is old, it's only the first nation state. Other places founded city states earlier.

It's easy enough to imagine amanita muscaria growing in the highlands of North Africa BEFORE the Sahara formed a mere 7,500 years ago, and then disappearing when the place dried up. Mushrooms need big, juicy trees to eat. They suck sugar from their roots. No trees, no mushrooms. No mushrooms, no soma.

Ancient Egypt was formed AFTER the creation of the Sahara. We have different peoples at different times living along the Nile.

94 posted on 01/09/2005 5:21:30 PM PST by muawiyah (Egypt didn't invent civilization time)
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To: muawiyah
"It's always about narcotics. You knew that didn't you?"

Many of the 4,000 year old Tarim Mummies were buried with epedhera(sp) grasped in their hands and in small pouches.

95 posted on 01/09/2005 7:24:12 PM PST by blam
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To: blam

I watched the TV show on this. I found it to be very interesting.

Then again, I find ancient Egypt fascinating.


96 posted on 01/09/2005 7:25:19 PM PST by exnavychick (There's too much youth; how about a fountain of smart.)
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To: blam

I agree with that, it was built long before.


97 posted on 01/09/2005 7:31:41 PM PST by McGavin999 (Senate is trying to cover their A$$es with Rumsfeld's hide)
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To: rmmcdaniell

Actually, there is no need to lay the blame at the feet of either Napolean or the Arabs. It was common practice in ancient Egypt to deface the statues of other pharoahs. It's called jealousy.


98 posted on 01/09/2005 7:41:33 PM PST by McGavin999 (Senate is trying to cover their A$$es with Rumsfeld's hide)
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To: Reaganesque
Eddie?


99 posted on 01/09/2005 7:43:15 PM PST by Dead Corpse (Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.)
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To: muawiyah

You dodged my question. Are there any Egyptian texts describing ritual A. muscaria use, or for that matter, any psychoactive mushrooms?


100 posted on 01/10/2005 4:00:39 AM PST by dinodino
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