Catholic Ping - please freepmail me if you want on/off this list
Posted on 12/14/2004 3:09:01 AM PST by NYer
VATICAN CITY, December 13, 2004 (LifeSiteNews.com) - John Thavis, the Vatican correspondent for the Catholic News Service, an agency of the US Bishops Conference, reports that the Vatican will soon publish a document concerning homosexuality and the priesthood. The report notes that Vatican officials are preparing an inspection (or visitation) of US seminaries to commence in the Fall of 2005 and the document is expected prior to the visitation.
Bishop John C. Nienstedt of New Ulm, Minn., chairman of the U.S. bishops' Committee on Priestly Formation, said in an interview in Rome, "I think they intend to have it out by the time the visitation begins."
The Vatican has confirmed several times that men with homosexual sexual orientations should not be ordained. The December 2002 bulletin of the Vatican's Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments contained a letter signed by Cardinal Jorge Medina Estevez, who has since retired as the head of the Congregation, which said ordaining such men would be imprudent and "very risky."
A prominent Vatican document dealing with the issue was released as early as 1961. The 1961 document from the Sacred Congregation for Religious prohibits the admission of homosexuals to the diocesan priesthood and religious orders. The document states: "Those affected by the perverse inclination to homosexuality or pederasty should be excluded from religious vows and ordination," because priestly ministry would place such persons in "grave danger".
The document is being prepared by the Congregation for Catholic Education in consultation with several other Vatican agencies, including the doctrinal congregation. In a report earlier this year, the education congregation described it as an "instruction on the criteria and norms for the discernment in questions regarding homosexuality in view of the admission of candidates to the seminary and to sacred orders."
Commenting on the coming document which has been more than five years in the making, Bishop Nienstedt said, ""I think it's going to be a balanced document, because the whole question of homosexuality not only has psychological dimensions but also has varying degrees of a person acting out or not acting out." He added, "So the whole question has to be nuanced considerably: 'What is homosexuality?' 'What are the homosexual attractions?' and that sort of thing. I think this document will be helpful because it is going to address those questions."
Catholic Ping - please freepmail me if you want on/off this list
Bump!
That is the BIG Question!! WHO? The USCCB has ignored many directives from the Vatican in the past. They will ignore this one also as I believe it will be self incriminating for many of them.
The WHO is the Laiety, the People of the Catholic Religion themselves. If Rome and especially those around the Pope are serious about enforcing the directives, then the Laiety will have somewhere to go. Otherwise the Church will remain in the state of destruction that is has become since Vatican II
Why does the church not allow married men to become priest?? I heard that 100-200 years ago the church knew if priest were married once that priest died they would have to continue supporting the spouse. i.e. that not allowing priest to marry was not some devine intervention from God but based soley on ecomonic issues.
Nobody thinks that priestly celibacy is a matter of divine fiat nor of doctrine. It's solely a matter of discipline and might be reversed.
That said: I think its a good idea.
The biblical basis for this is as follows.
The Roman Catholic Church demands celibacy--no voluntary sexual pleasure, hence, no marriage--as a prerequisite to the order of presbyter.
The primary basis for the requirement of celibacy is clearly the lifestyle example of Jesus himself.
The Church notes that the practice is sanctioned by the New Testament.
The law of celibacy has no doctrinal bearing in the Catholic Church--it is a mere disciplinary law. Even today, there are married Catholic priests in the United States. Each is a former Episcopalian priest who joined the Catholic Church. There are Uniate Churches, churches in union with Rome, e.g., the Greek Byzantine Church, who have a married clergy.
Priestly celibacy became law in the Roman Church in the 6th century.
In a practical sense, a priest enencumbered by a wife, children, mortgage, orthodontist payments, etc. can better attend to his flock. He can devote himself entirely to his calling. This choice is freely made by those men who feel 'called' to the priesthood.
NOT!
I was a lot earlier than 200 years ago.
A lot of it had to do with European inheritance laws.
If a man who was going for the preist-hood came from a landed family or had wealth, when he died, all of his property got taken by the Church.
Same thing with girls who entered the Sisterhood.: if they had a dowery, it became the property of the Church.
Simple Money and Land grab.
Quote: In a practical sense, a priest enencumbered by a wife, children, mortgage, orthodontist payments, etc. can better attend to his flock. He can devote himself entirely to his calling. This choice is freely made by those men who feel 'called' to the priesthood.
I am a Catholic and think this is a bunch of bull. How do the other faiths get along with allowing their pastors to marry??
Being a Protestant, I'm not going to criticize the Catholic religion for their wanting their clergy to remain celibate and unmarried. Just a couple of observations.
First, being our clergy are allowed to be married I feel because they have the same problems in marriage that their congregational members have, they can understand these problems and are better able to give guidance based on actual experience.
Secondly, and this problem is not restricted to the Catholic church, but does appear to be more prevalent (could be the press just makes a bigger deal of it) but the sexual abuse of young children that are in their congregations. Could marriage of the clergy lower these instances. I can't answer that, but when you look at publicized cases maybe it would. I do believe the actions of these priests reflects unfavorably on the Catholic religion and it shouldn't. The actions of a few shouldn't reflect on the majority who are God fearing people.
The Priest is Married to the Church as a Man is Married to a women.
There are a number of documents on this subject:
These are at the URL below
http://www.catholic.org/phpframedirect/out.php?url=http://library.catholic.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?TemplateName=views.tmpl
Finally, priestly obedience has a particular <"pastoral" character.> It is lived in an atmosphere of constant readiness to allow oneself to be taken up, as it were "consumed", by the needs and demands of the flock. These last ought to be truly reasonable and at times they need to be evaluated and tested to see how genuine they are. But it is undeniable that the priest's life is fully "taken up" by the hunger for the Gospel and for faith, hope and love for God and his mystery, a hunger which is more or less consciously present in the People of God entrusted to him.
29. Referring to the evangelical counsels, the Council states that "preeminent among these counsels is that precious gift of divine grace given to some by the Father (cf. Mt 19:11; 1 Cor 7:7) in order more easily to devote themselves to God alone with an undivided heart (cf. 1 Cor 7:32-34) in virginity or celibacy. This perfect continence for love of the Kingdom of Heaven has always been held in high esteem by the Church as a sign and stimulus of love, and as a singular source of spiritual fertility in the world".[76] In virginity and celibacy, chastity retains its original meaning, that is, of human sexuality lived as a genuine sign of and precious service to the love of communion and gift of self to others. This meaning is fully found in virginity which makes evident, even in the renunciation of marriage, the "nuptial meaning" of the body through a communion and a personal gift to Jesus Christ and his Church which prefigures and anticipates the perfect and final communion and self-giving of the world to come: "In virginity or celibacy, the human being is awaiting, also in a bodily way, the eschatological marriage of Christ with the Church, giving himself or herself completely to the Church in the hope that Christ may give himself to the Church in the full truth of eternal life".[77]
In this light one can more easily understand and appreciate the reasons behind the centuries-old choice which the Western Church has made and maintained--despite all the difficulties and objections raised down the centuries--of conferring the Order of Presbyter only on men who have given proof that they have been called by God to the gift of chastity in absolute and perpetual celibacy.
The Synod Fathers clearly and forcefully expressed their thought on this matter in an important proposal which deserves to be quoted here in full: "While in no way interfering with the discipline of the Oriental Churches, the Synod, in the conviction that perfect chastity in priestly celibacy is a charism, reminds priests that celibacy is a priceless gift of God for the Church and has a prophetic value for the world today. This Synod strongly reaffirms what the Latin Church and some Oriental Rites require, that is, that the priesthood be conferred only on those men who have received from God the gift of the vocation to celibate chastity (without prejudice to the tradition of some Oriental Churches and particular cases of married clergy who convert to Catholicism, which are admitted as exceptions in Pope Paul VI's Encyclical on priestly celibacy, No. 42). The Synod does not wish to leave any doubts in the mind of anyone regarding the Church's firm will to maintain the law that demands perpetual and freely chosen celibacy for present and future candidates for priestly ordination in the Latin Rite. The Synod would like to see celibacy presented and explained in the fullness of its biblical, theological and spiritual richness, as a precious gift given by God to his
Church and as a sign of the Kingdom which is not of this world, a sign of God's love for this world and of the undivided love of the priest for God and for God's People, with the result that celibacy is seen as a positive enrichment of the priesthood".[78]
It is especially important that the priest understand the theological motivation of the Church's law on celibacy. Inasmuch as it is a law, it expresses even before the will of the subject expressed by his readiness. But the will of the Church finds its ultimate motivation in the celibacy and sacred Ordination,> which configures the priest to Jesus Christ the Head and Spouse of the Church. The Church, as the Spouse of Jesus Christ, wishes to be loved by the priest in the total and exclusive manner in which Jesus Christ her Head and Spouse loved her. Priestly celibacy, then, is the gift of self and Christ his Church and expresses the priest's service to the Church in and with the Lord.
For an adequate priestly spiritual life, celibacy ought not to be considered and lived as an isolated or purely negative element, but as one aspect of a positive, specific and characteristic approach to being a priest. Leaving father and mother, the priest follows Jesus the Good Shepherd, in an apostolic communion, in the service of the People of God. Celibacy, then, is to be welcomed and continually renewed with a free and loving decision as a priceless gift from God, as an "incentive to pastoral charity",[79] as a singular sharing in God's fatherhood and in the fruitfulness of the Church, and as a witness to the world of the eschatological Kingdom. To put into practice all the moral, pastoral and spiritual demands of priestly celibacy it is absolutely necessary that the priest pray humbly and trustingly, as the Council points out: "In the world today, many people call perfect continence impossible. The more they do so, the more humbly and perseveringly priests should join with the Church in praying for the grace of fidelity It is never denied to those who ask. At the same time let priests make use of all the supernatural and natural helps which are now available to all".[80] Once again it is prayer, together with the Church's Sacraments and ascetical practice, which will provide hope in difficulties, forgiveness in failings, and confidence and courage in resuming the journey.
There is also a movement by the Feminist to allow married Priests. This is a back door way into allowying Female Catholic Priests and Homoexual Priests. If the church allows Priests to marry, the Feminist feel they would have a foot in the door of the Cathedral to justify Female Priests.
you can go to the following URL and fins many books and studies that have been done on this subjecy. It really is facinating reading. The Feminist and Homosexual movements have historically been behind this "Married Priest" movement. For centuries they have failed and continue to fail even under Vatican II and the Novous Ordo priests.
http://www.catholic.org/phpframedirect/out.php?url=http://library.catholic.org/plweb-cgi/fastweb?TemplateName=views.tmpl
imprudent and "very risky."? How about a direct violation to God's holy and sacred word, the Bible?
In Pauls letter to Timothy are the job qualifications to be a minister of God, amongst them: "A man married to one wife."
There is not one verse in the entire bible althorizing the ordanation of homosexuals or women.
What is wrong with religion these days that they claim to be Christians, yet refuse to honor and follow His word? And it is not just Roman Cahtolics, it is any number of Protestant denominations as well
Elton John, SJ.
A lynching might do it?
Yes, but to be a Christian group, should not one use the entire Bible, not just a few verses here and there? Shall we not also include verses making it clear that a man who chooses to minsiter to people in the name of God, should be married?
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. (1 Timothy 3:1-13)
The pope has forever ruled out the option of ordaining women. But, it is not surprising that the 'married priesthood' is driven by the feminist movement. Many of the 'liberal' bishops in this country, were put in place by Archbishop Jean Jadot. He intentionally chose 'young' priests with liberal agendas to match his, anticipating that they would outlive the Holy Father, be appointed as Cardinals and elevate one of their own as next pope, thus "modernizing" the Catholic Church. I do believe that God will have the last laugh!
"Archbishop Jean Jadot, Pope Paul VI's apostolic delegate to the United States from 1973-1980, has no regrets about the spate of bad bishops he inflicted on the Catholics of this country such as Bishop Walter Sullivan of Richmond, Va., Archbishop Rembert Weakiand of Milwaukee, and Roger Cardinal Mahony of Los Angeles.
Other men who became bishops during Jadot's tenure in the United States include Rochester Bishop Matthew Clark; Albany's Howard Hubbard; former Santa Fe Archbishop Roberto Sanchez, who resigned in a sex scandal; former San Jose Bishop Pierre DuMaine; former Honolulu Bishop Joseph Ferrario; San Antonio Archbishop Patrick Flores; former Newark Archbishop Peter Gerety; Joliet, Ill., Bishop Joseph Imesch; Louisille Archbishop Thomas C. Kelly, O.P., a former staffer at the apostolic nuncio under Jadot; Bernard Cardinal Law of Boston (whom Jadot selected as bishop for Springfield-Cape Girardeau, Mo.), Cincinnati Archbishop Daniel Pilarczyk; Saginaw, Mich., Bishop Kenneth Untener - to name a few more - all of whom, supposedly, mirrored his own progressive image as a "man of the people."
More important would be the question of why are the full Gospel, non denominaltion Christian churches growing by being filled with former Roman Catholics and former liberal main stream men and women?
The answer to that is simple, they, the Full Gospel Christian churches, base their practices and preachings on unadulterated Scripture.
Only last night, Marcus Grodi, a former Baptist minister and convert to the Catholic Church, was discussing this with his guest on The Journey Home. He repeatedly demonstrated how often, as a minister, he had to constantly weigh his family obligations against church obligations. It was oftentimes, a heavy burden, especially with 7 children to support. Keep in mind that protestant ministers do not have to contend with the volume of masses said in the RC Church, including Holy Days of Obligation. They don't hear confessions, or lead novenas.
I too am a catholic but attend an Eastern Catholic Church. Like many of the Eastern Rites, our church allows for married clergy. However, there are restrictions. Those who wish to serve as priests outside of their homeland, are chose from the celibate clergy. My pastor has chosen celibacy for the reasons I mentioned above. His schedule is such that he would not have time to properly devote to both his parishioners and his family.
"amongst them", yes, but not limited to that one condition. Paul himself chose celibacy and encouraged it.
"NUANCED CAREFULLY"
That means that the Queer Establishment will "nuance" their interpretation and totally ignore any restrictions suggested by the Vatican.
Your understanding of the situation is straight from the Protestant playbook.
Thanks for your assistance--but no thanks.
Nope.
First off, a homosexual predator won't "solve his problem" by marrying a woman.
Secondly, you and I both know that married clerics also hop into adultery quite regularly.
It's a matter of self-control, just like you tell your children (I hope...)
You are so kind and patient to explain this AGAIN!
Uuuuhhhhnnnhhh...we used to call them "fems"---at our all-male Jebbie high school.
A fem is a fem is a fem, regardless of the tools God gave them, so to speak.
Is it true?
Or not?
DID the Church indeed inherit lands, money and goods from people who entered the priesthood?
There WAS motive.
The Church did do it.
Ir has been documented.
I can back up what i say.
The American Church, in particular a few diocese turned their backs on the church doctrine on ordaned homosexuals, and now those diocese are full of homosexuals so much so that they now control those diocese. Trading sex for favors and actively recruiting more homosexuals into them.
To this day, I still doubt highly that most lay folk of the church understand how rampant homosexuality has become in certain dioceses of the Catholic Church in america.
It needs to be stopped, and the only way it will be is if the Vatican itself kills it by purging the church of it.
Since they generally use a fragment of the bible (there are 7 books missing) and usually a bad translation (the King James might be good poetically, but a lot of meanings have been changed), I wouldn't say that.
People are looking for guidelines to follow and a community that follows the same guidelines. There are those of us out there who are Catholic who follow traditional guidelines and we don't let the modernists destroy our relationship with God and His Bride.
>>Simple Money and Land grab.<<
Wow! That Catholic Church, EVIL it is!!!
Why shouldn't the money these people had go to whatever order they went into. Who do you think fed them and kept them for years? Manna from heaven fell into the Abbies or Convents?????
Nothing is simple in God's eyes. There are Biblical reasons why Priests and Nuns do not marry, but in a world where Catholics are fair game, it MUST have to do with Greed.
Shouldn't be made bishop either.
Agreed, I didn't mean to imply they don't. I just feel it's harder to offer guidance to married couples when you don't have an understanding of the problems married couples face. It be like me trying to teach someone something that I'd not had experience in. You can possibly do it to a degree but not quite as well as if you'd had experience.
Shouldn't be made bishop either.
Or cardinal, for that matter.
"This choice is freely made by those men who feel 'called' to the priesthood."
Therein lies the problem, 'men who feel' "called", rather than men who are called.
I can point out many a pastor who's fooled around with married women.... And they are in faiths that allow their ministers and Pastors to marry.
Marriage will not end sexual perversion... it might open the career path to priesthood for folks who have never considered it before, but in terms of it ending sexual picadillos... hardly. A predatory pedophile is a predatory pedaphile, and while it may not be PC, the bulk of predatory pedophiles are ineed homosexual, at least in the studies I have seen on the subject. These sorts of people will ALWAYS be attracted to positions where they have power and/or access to youngsters (preferably both). Which is exactly why the Boy Scouts has to be ALWAYS on its guard against homosexuals trying to get into their midst and have access to the kids. It is also why the Church must have an absolutely no tolerance of homosexuality in its ranks (above and beyond the spiritual view of the practice), its simply common sense.
Predatory pedophiles are always going try to get jobs in schools, day cares, churches, summer camps, etc. A predator must have access to their prey and these positions offer this to them, not only access, but also power over their victims as well.
Marriage will not solve the predatory pedophile issue in the church. Understanding that while homosexuals are children of God, and deserve our prayers and frankly pity for their rejection of him and his teachings, that compassion and pity does not extend so far as to dillude ourselves that they are to be trusted around children, regardless of how nice they may be.
I don't think that that is necessarily true. Sometimes someone who knows nothing about either party and doesn't take sides, not having been there, can see what's happening more clearly.
Gently
Because usually we are friends.
What happens to little sibs or nephews and nieces when the priest of nun dies?
The Church has so much.
i tell you true, it hurts me to see Catholic people in South America starving when there is gold on the altar in a nice parish elsewhere.
But regardless of what decide, I DO wish you a Very Merry Christmas!
That's right. That's why they should seek out spiritual direction to help them find out if what they are 'feeling' is from God or not.
It is held in trust for the Divine Inspiration of future generations.
i tell you true, it hurts me to see Catholic people in South America starving when there is gold on the altar in a nice parish elsewhere.
When Mary Magdeline poured perfumed oil over Jesus, Judas admonished her. He said that the oil could be sold and the money used to feed the poor. And Jesus, in turn, admonished Judas, and said, The poor you will always have with you. I will only be here for a short time.
One must give alms to the poor as part of being a follower of Christ, but at the same time, only the best for God. Remember the Wedding at Cana.
On the surface it sounds like a good argument, that married clergy can relate better to their married congregation, but than what about all the singles?
As a Biblical counselor we do not counsel from our experience but from the principles throughout the Bible.
Therefore, you don't have to be married to show what God says about the institute of marriage.
Also, married people sexually abuse children. Celibacy is not the problem.
We are still friends. (actually, I didn't see that it was you, I just assumed it was one of the normal Catholic bashers, sorry!)
You know I love ya!!!!
But while they have gold on their altars they also feed the poor. In very many places it is the religious who are the only ones who feed the poor children. The church is very rich, in fine painting and gold altars. When JPII wanted to sell them to feed the poor, everyone had a fit. The people are just as generous as many other denominations. My parish has both a church in Detroit and a church in Slovakia that we support.
As for the nieces and nephews of Priests, they are the parents' responsibility. But,when my Great-Uncle John died (Pastor of my home parish in Cleveland), my mother got money from him. I'm not sure this holds today.
Hello.
First, you should know that while I am often sympathetic to Christian causes, I am no Christian.
i see the perfumed oil as a selective, special case.
Don't you think that when Jesus reproved Judas, He KNEW He was going to go down, and KNEW that Judas was going to betray him?
For me, the wedding at Canna is one of the BEST stories.
Hey, Girl!
I love you, too!
AND :
We can disagree!
We just need to be careful not to cut each other for no good reason!
I hope that what you are sayining is true and that the old inheritance rules have changed, and I am glad.
News from the Vatican on Homosexuality, " Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah Blah, etc., etc., etc.
In the works for 5 Years, WOW Lightening Speed.
Like I said, Had I seen it was you, my dear FRiend, I would not have been rude.
And rude is in my nature!!!!
(((Hugs)))
One 'discerns' the call before responding. The initial response is one of inquiry. The discernment process includes an understanding of the celibacy mandate. Ordination to the catholic priesthood is a lengthy process. Celibacy is only one part of "The Call".
I'm sure this here document will be just chock full of truth!
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