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WSJ: The Nanny Chronicles -- Lock your doors; the Mexican maids are coming. (Immigration reform)
Wall Street Journal ^ | December 14, 2004 | Editorial

Posted on 12/14/2004 6:02:37 AM PST by OESY

...Think about the Kerik example: The man and his wife have two small kids.... A nanny offers that help, and she seems both nice enough and gets along with kids. Whether or not she's "legal" seems less important to most American parents than whether she's trustworthy and hard-working.

As for the nanny, she's traveled hundreds, if not thousands, of miles from home to make some money and get ahead. Her primary concern isn't running some Immigration Service gantlet but is to find a good family that pays decently and treats her well. Are we really supposed to believe that this kind of transaction between consenting adults jeopardizes our national security?

...Congress made some progress on the so-called nanny tax issue back in 1994, raising the threshold for complying and simplifying the process by which employers file taxes for their domestic help.

...Most Americans calculate the costs -- in time, legal advice and hassle -- of filling out all the forms, and they simply pay cash instead. The wage threshold should long ago have been raised far higher.

As for immigration law, the Bush Administration is headed down the right path with its guest-worker program. That proposal acknowledges that immigrants fill vital jobs, that movement across borders is inevitable as long as there is the lure of opportunity, and that merely adding more border guards won't stop migrants in any case.

The Bush plan would provide a legal means -- a three-year work visa -- for new immigrants to enter the country and take jobs Americans don't want. Some of them could even be nannies. That system would make it easier to track all foreigners, freeing up our homeland security forces to concentrate on terror threats, rather than rounding up the usual nanny suspects....

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Mexico; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: aliens; bush; homelandsecurity; immigrantlist; immigration; ins; kerik; kimbawood; lindachavez; nanny; socialsecurity; taxes; zoebaird
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1 posted on 12/14/2004 6:02:38 AM PST by OESY
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To: OESY
I have to agree with the writer on this one....


Flame Away!
2 posted on 12/14/2004 6:05:33 AM PST by dagoofyfoot
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To: Senator Kunte Klinte
Kerik seemed the perfect candidate: battle-tested as NYC police commissioner during 9/11, fully aware of the needs and pitfalls of crisis communications and federal-state-local information-sharing, a results-oriented management style, private sector consultant experience working with Giuliani where he honed his teaching points, exposure to terrorism in Iraq and his Iraqi police counterparts, etc. Too bad the US values nanny taxes over effective Homeland Security leadership.

On the other hand, the DHS like the NID is a high profile position where the media can get their jollies by attacking the choice of color-coding and recommendations to stock duct-tape. Thus, the opposition party, assisted by the MSM, can easily undercut an administration by scapegoating the director and forcing resignations for spurious or trivial reasons. Since intelligence and homeland defense are imperfect blends of art and science, both successes and failures occur daily, but usually only the latter gets publicity.

That means such positions are highly vulnerable to partisan attacks, so the smartest appointment for a Bush administration is Sen. Lieberman, the inoculation candidate. He has virtually no executive management experience, except as Connecticut's AG, and thus very little meaningful and practical experience (of Kerik variety) in dealing with terrorism's challenges. This is especially the case since so many of the failures of intelligence can be traced directly back to Congressional meddling. Too bad for the US homeland security.
3 posted on 12/14/2004 6:07:39 AM PST by OESY
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To: OESY
Trustworthy but illegal. Fake but accurate. Sorry, but I would like some level of (at least faux) personal integrity in my public appointees. A man cannot enforce a law that he blatantly disregards.

I don't find the use of slave labor from Mexico amusing in a political candidate of any stripe.

4 posted on 12/14/2004 6:12:24 AM PST by Innisfree
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To: OESY
Being paternalistic, real republicans pay the social security on their employees, noblesse oblige

Equalitarian Democrats treat their employees as equals, and have no qualms about screwing those who will most need their government pensions out of them.

So9

5 posted on 12/14/2004 6:14:37 AM PST by Servant of the 9 (Trust Me)
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To: OESY
As for the nanny, she's traveled hundreds, if not thousands, of miles from home to make some money and get ahead. Her primary concern isn't running some Immigration Service gantlet but is to find a good family that pays decently and treats her well. Are we really supposed to believe that this kind of transaction between consenting adults jeopardizes our national security?

Yep. My family and I really work hard also to get ahead. There are a few laws we could break that would really help us out. And we won't even send the money that we make to Mexico, we'll spend it right here! No big deal I guess. Have at it everyone!

6 posted on 12/14/2004 6:16:51 AM PST by Lijahsbubbe
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To: OESY

Are we really supposed to believe we should encourage illegal and MASSIVE immigration so snotty liberal couples can have low priced nannies??? With the nannies come males too in numbers that change the face of our culture.

Forget terrorism-- All nations are formed through immigration and all nations fall through immigration. Some of the best parts of Tennessee have ceased to exist because they have become Mexican enclaves.

I like Mexicans but I don't think we should reward their high birth rate with an unlimited relief conduit. I like Mexicans but not enough to invite 90 million of them to come on over.


7 posted on 12/14/2004 6:17:19 AM PST by Monterrosa-24 (Technology advances but human nature is dependably stagnant)
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To: OESY
Damnit, I HATE sites that make you register just to read an article.

From the limited amount that was excerpted, the WSJ isn't thinking correctly on this, IMO.

Whether or not the ILLEGAL immigrant is willing to do, or take, a job that an American won't is irrelevant. If they are illegal, ship them back to the country of origin.
They are a net drain on the economy. Sure, some municipality may make a couple bucks on sales tax but the state and fed govts aren't getting any income tax, the countys and state aren't getting any property tax or licensing fees, and at the same time every time they need medical attention, every time their kids need education, every time one of them commits a crime and gets a free defense atty, they are draining the economy.

I believe there are Americans out there that WOULD take many of the jobs that illegal immigrants have at present. Factory jobs, hotel jobs, nanny jobs, day laborer jobs, etc.
There is probably a need for a limited amount of immigrants in the fashion that W wants to make legal but doing it for ALL the illegal immigrants that are already here is nothing more than amnesty from breaking our laws. If these people want to come to our country in that fashion, let them go back to the country of origin and then have the employer offer them a job.

I believe that W is wrong on this issue. If we reward the illegal immigrants every 18 years with an amnesty program it will only lead to MORE ILLEGAL immigrants crossing our borders and eventually Mexico will do what it has wanted to since 1848 and take back the Southwest, including Texas.

8 posted on 12/14/2004 6:20:51 AM PST by Just another Joe (Warning: FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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To: dagoofyfoot

Allow me to rewrite:

...Think about the Kerik example: The man and his wife have two small kids.... A nanny offers that help, and she seems both nice enough and gets along with kids. Whether or not she's "legal" seems less important to most American parents than whether she's trustworthy and hard-working.

As for the nanny, she's traveled hundreds, if not thousands, of miles from home to make some money to send to her family back in Pakistan. Her son's primary concern is to bring death to the evil infidels of the United States. So, she finds a good family that pays decently and treats her well. Are we really supposed to believe that this kind of transaction between consenting adults jeopardizes our national security?

There. Make more sense now?


9 posted on 12/14/2004 6:21:32 AM PST by Terabitten (Live as a bastion of freedom and democracy in the midst of the heart of darkness.)
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To: dagoofyfoot
Whether or not she's "legal" seems less important to most American parents than whether she's trustworthy and hard-working.

What a bunch of crap. This is to avoid paying "legal" wages and paying social security tax.

10 posted on 12/14/2004 6:22:15 AM PST by KC_Conspirator (I am poster #48)
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To: Just another Joe

go to bugmenot.com


11 posted on 12/14/2004 6:23:19 AM PST by KC_Conspirator (I am poster #48)
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To: gubamyster; HiJinx; Joe Hadenuf; FITZ; JackelopeBreeder

Here it is, the Wall Street elite admitting in print they don't give a damn about the law, the law is for "the little people."

Don't get between an oligarch and his sub-minimum-wage illegal maid or gardener. Don't worry about paying benefits (laws are for the little people, right) the middle class taxpayers will pick that up for you.

And don't worry about middle class kids in schools with classes of 35, of whom 15 are illegals who barely speak English.

Your kids go to private school. Screw those middle class Americans. You're a citizen of the one world, a globocrat.

Screw "America." That concept is so passe.


12 posted on 12/14/2004 6:24:11 AM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: Monterrosa-24

Yep, liberals are the only ones hiring illegal nannies. Sure thing.


13 posted on 12/14/2004 6:27:19 AM PST by Wolfie
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To: KC_Conspirator
go to bugmenot.com

Looks like a good site to know but they don't have a login for the WSJ.

14 posted on 12/14/2004 6:28:21 AM PST by Just another Joe (Warning: FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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To: Just another Joe
---exactly---The Wall Street Journal official position on illegal immigration is why I won't subscribe (along with the presence of Al Hunt on their payroll).

Sunny Buono had the right attitude on illegals--" what's there to discuss?-they're illegal"--

15 posted on 12/14/2004 6:29:02 AM PST by rellimpank
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To: Travis McGee

"Here it is, the Wall Street elite admitting in print they don't give a damn about the law, the law is for the little people."

Exactly. There is an elite in America which thinks the laws don't apply to them. Immigration laws, drug laws, insider trading/securities fraud laws.

Respecting and enforcing the law is a conservative value. Breaking the law and making apologies for lawbreakers is not a conservative value.

And, while the WSJ is using the image of a Latino housekeeper to support their call for reform, I would point to the Algerian, Moroccan, and Tunisian illegal immigrant security screeners at Boston's Logan Airport on 9/11.

An open, unguarded border is the handmaiden of the terrorists.


16 posted on 12/14/2004 6:32:01 AM PST by nj26
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To: dagoofyfoot

When did we stop being "a nation of laws?"


17 posted on 12/14/2004 6:32:16 AM PST by Finalapproach29er (You can drive from coast to coast and never pass through a single county won by Kerry.)
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Comment #18 Removed by Moderator

To: Travis McGee
"Here it is, the Wall Street elite admitting in print they don't give a damn about the law, the law is for "the little people."

Don't get between an oligarch and his sub-minimum-wage illegal maid or gardener. Don't worry about paying benefits (laws are for the little people, right) the middle class taxpayers will pick that up for you..."

Poor Leona Helmsly. She got raked over the coals far worse than merited via her humorous "taxes are for the little people" comments. But the Wall Street Journal cannot see a great bull market without a rising population and White Americans have achieved ZPG. That's right the Greens should applaud us Whities cause we American Honkies are at Zero Population Growth. But we will not realize the dividend for the environment because of our immigration policy. But no Greens or tree huggers protest MASSIVE immigration. Why????
19 posted on 12/14/2004 6:34:26 AM PST by Monterrosa-24 (Technology advances but human nature is dependably stagnant)
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To: dagoofyfoot

Nannies are fine, unless you actually talk to a professional nanny. And then you'll see how they have hurt the nanny business (with the exception of foreign students, but that's another story).

If you don't know any nannies, it's okay, because you can wait for your friend the carpenter, the carpet installer, the dry wall guy, the mechanic, or the cement guy to get displaced. Basically, I'm talking about all of the trades, with the exception of plumbers and electricians (but maybe even those, too).

Anyway, it's already started. A guy I know needed a new floor. He hired three guys, bought the flooring at Home Depot. Cost of labor? $250 for two days for all three guys.
All three guys were hard working and good with their hands, while one of them was actually a skilled carpenter.


20 posted on 12/14/2004 6:34:32 AM PST by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
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To: OESY

If this doof had just hired Fran Drescher, he could have gotten two of his failings taken care of at once.


21 posted on 12/14/2004 6:37:48 AM PST by Kerfuffle
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To: OESY
SS Taxes are a secondary issue. What about THE LAW? What about security for the family of NYC's Top Cop, who's responsible for the arrest of thousands of people every year (both US citizens and illegals)? This Spanish-speaking nanny could be from Colombia and paid to take out the Kerik family, or kidnap the kids for revenge.

Taxes aside, it shows a complete disregard for the LAW and SECURITY at the most basic level - YOUR FAMILY!!

22 posted on 12/14/2004 6:38:17 AM PST by DTogo (U.S. out of the U.N. & U.N out of the U.S.)
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To: OESY

Seems pretty simple to me. It's illegal for the illegal immigrant to be in this country. It's illegal to hire illegal immigrants. It's illegal to not pay the Social Security taxes on household employees.

Kerik did all this illegal stuff. He should not be the head of the very department that enforces immigration laws. Period. We're well rid of him.


23 posted on 12/14/2004 6:42:35 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: DTogo

You're right! Pretty stupid huh?

Kerrick: "I think I'll hire a person who breaks the law to take care of my family....do dee doh doh doh....."

What a moron, I guess we couldn't count on someone who values money more than his family to care about the rest of the US.


24 posted on 12/14/2004 6:48:22 AM PST by Lijahsbubbe
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To: dagoofyfoot
Real nice and warm and fuzzy stuff about the nanny. You know of course, once the warm and fuzzies are brought into the equation for law breakers, it all goes to hell. The defense of the Mendez bro's..."Have mercy! We're orphans!"

Doesn't wash.

FMCDH(BITS)

25 posted on 12/14/2004 6:50:42 AM PST by nothingnew (Kerry is gone...perhaps to Lake Woebegone)
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To: FrankWild
It's not just rich Republicans. It's middle class, upper middle class and rich Democrats and Republicans.
26 posted on 12/14/2004 6:52:41 AM PST by CaptainK
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To: FrankWild

This isn't about nannies. It's about an entire class of workers. The lowest paid workers in any given profession usually set the wages for a good many people in that profession...and this isn't just isolated to nannies.


27 posted on 12/14/2004 6:55:08 AM PST by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
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To: CaptainK

"It's not just rich Republicans. It's middle class, upper middle class and rich Democrats and Republicans."

Yup. They're breaking the law and harming our immigration policies (such as they are). A few well-publicized jail sentences for the ones hiring all these illegals would soon put an end to it.

That's not going to happen, of course. These are the same folks who are writing nice big campaign contribution checks for both parties.

OTOH, some of them are seeing their jobs migrate overseas, too.


28 posted on 12/14/2004 6:56:12 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: FrankWild

A lot of women who work as nannies are NOT third world peasants.


29 posted on 12/14/2004 6:56:28 AM PST by cyborg (http://www.zimbabwesituation.com/flamelily.html)
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To: OESY

" fully aware of the needs and pitfalls of crisis communications and federal-state-local information-sharing"

The man was

a) too stupid to check the residency status of the nanny
b) knowningly violating federal law by employing an illegal alien.
c) knowningly violating federal tax law

...and you think he was the perfect candidate?


30 posted on 12/14/2004 6:58:58 AM PST by politicalwit (Import poverty...hire an illegal today)
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To: Wolfie
"Yep, liberals are the only ones hiring illegal nannies. Sure thing."

I did not use an exclusive term or the word "only". But it is a liberal position that more diversity enriches us and there is no shortage of lib couples hiring ILLEGAL Mexicans, Salvadorans, et al when there are some dollars to be saved.
31 posted on 12/14/2004 6:59:03 AM PST by Monterrosa-24 (Technology advances but human nature is dependably stagnant)
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To: durasell

Where is this? You can't hire a skilled (likely illegal) solo carpenter for less than $100 per day in my experience. And even then, he won't have many tools or skills. I live in Dallas, by the way.


32 posted on 12/14/2004 7:01:08 AM PST by metalcor
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To: Lijahsbubbe

The point is the law is stupid. Furthermore consider how ridiculous the law is in this context. Illegals are not supposed to be here. Yet, no public entitity can deny their children education. No hospital can deny them care even the most expensive (like a transplant. Even if hospitals or schools know the persons are illegal, they are forbidden to squeal on them. BUT OH MY GOD, YOU BETTER NOT ALLOW THEM IN YOUR HOME TO WORK AS A NANNY!!! In fact, no one should employ them anywhere.

GIVE ME A F***ING BREAK. This approach is quite stupid and people who continually contend that this position lack any ability for critical analysis.


33 posted on 12/14/2004 7:05:58 AM PST by Doctorlawyer
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To: Doctorlawyer

"GIVE ME A F***ING BREAK. This approach is quite stupid and people who continually contend that this position (is correc) lack any ability for critical analysis."

I put the Correction in parentheses before someone launches an attack on my grammar.


34 posted on 12/14/2004 7:08:28 AM PST by Doctorlawyer
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To: metalcor

This is NYC. He hired the three guys for $250 for two days. One of the guys knew what he was doing and instructed the other two. The flooring they put down was one of those wooden, fits together like a puzzle deals. Now, assuming he's lying slightly to me and it wasn't $250, but $300, he still got a heck of a deal.

On the other hand,the point isn't in the specifics -- it's the more general fact that wages for a wide range of work will drop like a stone.


35 posted on 12/14/2004 7:13:07 AM PST by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
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To: dagoofyfoot

I have to agree with the writer on this one....

All I've read is the excerpt posted, but I agree that the wage threshold should be raised. The current threshold is $999 per year. If you pay an 'employee' $1,000 or more per year, then you're req'd to pay both SS & Unemployment. This affects citizen part-timers also. It's not just an illegal immigrant thing.

36 posted on 12/14/2004 7:13:13 AM PST by elli1
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To: Doctorlawyer
"...Yet, no public entity can deny their children education. No hospital can deny them care even the most expensive..."

So what policy do you want to see changed?-- That illegals are not supported by schools and hospitals or that families can hire illegals without fear of legal retribution?
37 posted on 12/14/2004 7:15:59 AM PST by Monterrosa-24 (Technology advances but human nature is dependably stagnant)
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To: dagoofyfoot

"Are we really supposed to believe that this kind of transaction between consenting adults jeopardizes our national security?"

So if I want to hire an Islamic suicide bomber to take out the crack house in my neighborhood it's ok?


38 posted on 12/14/2004 7:16:58 AM PST by dljordan
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To: durasell
The lowest paid workers in any given profession usually set the wages for a good many people in that profession...

That's absolutely true - Econ 101: supply responds to demand, thereby lowering prices and increasing demand. The essential issue is, can we stop the migration of people who are willing to drive the prices even lower?

I don't think we can control immigration - the history of mankind is one driven by migration. Certain cultures over the past 5,000 years, for whatever reasons, have created productive, wealth building societies which have then set off a stampede people to get in on the deal.

The US is just the last of a long line of succesful societies; the question is, can we absorb and assimilate, or are we doomed just as the empires of the past?

39 posted on 12/14/2004 7:18:01 AM PST by lemura
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To: Doctorlawyer
I'm looking forward to the day when illegal immigrates set up shops as lawyers and doctors. There is a definite need for reasonable prices in these fields. Illegals will help suppress the insane salaries that these two fields yield.
40 posted on 12/14/2004 7:19:11 AM PST by CaptainK
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To: Doctorlawyer
The point is the law is stupid

This is how we arrived at this situation.

Since the illegals are here, why not give them licenses, why not give them health care, why not allow employers to hire them without consequence, etc. etc.?

As long as there are laws left to be upheld, I will support the upholding of them. Especially from people who are supposed to be in positions of authority.

41 posted on 12/14/2004 7:20:13 AM PST by Lijahsbubbe
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To: lemura

I think that anyone who earns their living with their hands is pretty much in for the shock of a lifetime over the next five or ten years. And what was once a middleclass living for a lot of these guys will turn into something resembling what we now call the "working poor," i.e. see fast food employees.

For those doing the hiring, they'll have a similar feeling that people get when they buy one of those $55.00 DVD players or similarly good deal.


42 posted on 12/14/2004 7:22:03 AM PST by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
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To: durasell

But you bolster your point with the specifics, making your point seem less valid. Even if the guy paid a dolar a foot, which is ridiculously low, any competent installer could do a 300 sq ft room in a day with just one helper. Yes, I have done it myself. Being a tradesman, I know that the illegals' effect on wages and the ability of Americans willing to work to make a decent living is grossly exagerrated. It is the Chinese and Mexican willing to make our crap for a few dollars a day hurt employment here far more. Kicking out illegals will just mean more work for them as American industry leaves in even greater numbers.


43 posted on 12/14/2004 7:23:00 AM PST by metalcor
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To: OESY
The Bush plan would provide a legal means -- a three-year work visa -- for new immigrants to enter the country and take jobs Americans don't want

It's that "jobs Americans don't want" that really gets me.

Only stupid, lower-class, clueless, skill-less, idiot Mexicans will take "jobs Americans don't want"? Only the n*ggers will work those jobs?

Tell me one job that "Americans don't want."

44 posted on 12/14/2004 7:24:25 AM PST by Theo
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Comment #45 Removed by Moderator

To: dagoofyfoot; 1_Inch_Group; 2sheep; 2Trievers; 3AngelaD; 4.1O dana super trac pak; 4Freedom; ...
Click to see other threads related to illegal aliens in America
Click to FR-mail me for addition or removal

Flame Away!

Pleased to oblige...

The writer makes arguments that make agreement pleasant, however, the writer is dead wrong. Think of the little Dutch boy with his finger in the dike. Eventually, the dike gave way and the ocean poured in to destroy his village. Quaint? Perhaps. Accurate? Absolutely.

46 posted on 12/14/2004 7:25:40 AM PST by HiJinx ( www.ProudPatriots.com ~ Operation Valentine's Day)
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To: CaptainK
I'm looking forward to the day when illegal immigrates set up shops as lawyers and doctors

LOL.

47 posted on 12/14/2004 7:26:25 AM PST by Lijahsbubbe
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To: nj26

There is a Muslim woman in a head scarf at Logan who searches trunks at the parking lot. She may be Atta's sister-in-law, but she's probably legal.


48 posted on 12/14/2004 7:27:21 AM PST by ladyjane
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To: metalcor

Okay, look -- I have no idea as to the sq footage. It was a hallway and livingroom area in a NYC condo, figure several hundred square feet. If he paid them 5 bucks an hour each, that's $15.00 an hour total multiplied by 16 (two days work) -- so you do the math. Figure he also spent at least some of that time driving them out to Home Depot in brooklyn to pick up the flooring and additional time waiting in line to get the rental van. I mean, if you want to get real specific, you can factor in the time it took to move the flooring up in the elevator, assuming the service elevator was out of service, as it frequently is.


49 posted on 12/14/2004 7:29:08 AM PST by durasell (Friends are so alarming, My lover's never charming...)
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To: Monterrosa-24

Can anyone sensibly argue that our government will suddenly take the position of denying illegals healthcare and education?

The answer is absolutely not. That will never happen no matter how much ultraconservatives want it.

The better argument is that we should legalize those that are here and get them on the tax rolls. I mean they participate in virtually every aspect of society already. Then, we can undertake a serious effort to shut the borders down.

In an ideal world, the current laws might make sense. But, right now they are stupid.


50 posted on 12/14/2004 7:30:29 AM PST by Doctorlawyer
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