Posted on 12/15/2004 5:39:10 AM PST by FairfaxVA
Agreed on the "no policy" policy. If they don't know who is armed, they're less likely to act - or at least less likely to succeed.
Disagreed on what's available or not to terrorists, and their hesitation to act against an identified armed AM. With a little creativity, stuff can get through. Detection rates are still abysmal despite improved security. Considering that, with careful selection, the worst punishment is confiscation, multiple attempts will get something through. As an IRA goon commented "we only have to get lucky once; you have to be lucky always."
Assume the madmen can get something on board (heck, loaded guns have been found in-flight). Make sure the AM has every advantage possible - including being indistinguishable from other passengers.
IMHO the best security would be in passenger profiling through questions similar to that used by the Israelis. They haven't had a hijacking since the Lod airport massacre in the 60s.
They are the #1 or #2 target for radical Islamists so they must be doing something right to manage to deter the terrorists over that long a period of time.
But the ACLU would never permit it.
Imagine if somebody started waving a gun around at the terrorists on 9/11. Somebody could have gotten hurt that day!
Imagine if a drunk thought they saw a terrorist, and started waving a gun around and shooting! Imagine if someone had a knife and fought back against a terrorist with a box cutter! Imagine if the pilot had a gun! Imagine if someone could even have had a pointy umbrella that went beyond the reach of a terrorist with a box cutter! We can imagine all day!!
Do terrorists even try to board El Al flights?
Any chance there is some method to this apparent madness? Make the dress policy widely known, enhance its visibility with this incident with the chief, but in reality there really ARE covertly dressed agents out there? What better way to hide them than to make the bad guys believe they are all dressed alike?
Absolutley. I was asked by a fellow passenger if I was an air marshal. Now I'm ex-military, short hair, etc., but my "cover" was blown pretty quickly.
Air marshals should looke like a cross section of the population, not G-men.
I'd like to think so but after Oklahoma City, Waco, Ruby Ridge, 9-11, Robert Hanssen, anthrax, TWA 800, etc. I don't have much faith in much of their leadership. Maybe I'm wrong.
Yes, the waving might be scary...but 10 or 15 people shooting would be much scarier.
Also, this would give any terrorist the opportunity to carry a gun on board as well.
Question for anybody:
If I shot out one airplane window at 38,000 feet, would that be enough to bring the plane down?
I haven't heard of any attempts to board an El Al plane in years. Of course the Israelis might not publicize it, but why not since it would show the terrorists they are on the alert.
Another major difference is that the terrorists KNOW there are at least two Israeli security men on EVERY El Al flight without exception.
No. The air conditioning system on a jet already has a pressure release valve, so it's already conected to the outside atmosphere. Air from the engines is brought in, cooled down and dumped into the passenger compartment continuously. It has to go out somehow. Wasn't there a plane that lost part of the roof of the passenger compartment that was brought down successfully? I'm not sure how high that one was. Do you think our B-24's and B-17 were brought down by just one shot? As I remember from Watching "Memphis Belle" they had open areas in the fuselage for the side gunners to shoot out.
The Ayoob files: When airline pilots draw guns
Excerpt: " The general public still believes that a gunshot fired aboard a jetliner that's aloft will wipe out the plane and all on board. They picture people being sucked out of bullet-broken windows like the character Oddjob in the Ian Fleming book and James Bond movie, Goldfinger. This turns out to be a figment of a novelist's fertile imagination. Pilots and aeronautical engineers are virtually unanimous in their agreement that no such thing is likely happen.
"They say it is unlikely that a pistol bullet will "blow out" an entire window. Several whole windows would have to be blasted out before a plane would depressurize enough to threaten life within the cabin, they say. Even then the flight crew should have time to take the plane to a lower altitude before anyone died of oxygen depravation."
As someone who travels 100%, and has been for about 9 years, I strongly agree. There are always people dressed in business wear, even pre 9/11.
He's given up his fedora tho!
Travis, they don't pre-board the elderly or those with kids. It's only those of us with status or in first class that pre-board.
I would think a terrorist would follow the path of least resistance.
I think a bigger problem would be trying to get out of 10 or 15 peoples lines of fire...little people and old ones would get trampled in the chaos.
Where are the statistics kept for this sort of thing happening on the ground? Does this thing happen at bars or concerts or ball games where people can carry? I remember going to a 5-day-long concert/festival series in 2002 and was not checked for anything other than a ticket. I could easily have taken in a gun on any of the nights I went. I figure after the first day, at least a few people were carrying a gun. Alcohol was sold. So there must be places where this could occur.
Thanks for the info and the link.
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