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Medical marijuana: The real stakes
TownHall.com ^ | 12-10-04 | Jeff Jacoby

Posted on 12/17/2004 9:12:14 AM PST by inquest

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To: tacticalogic
When Madison used the phrase, "for the positive purposes of the General Government", he was referring to the federal government using the power of the Commerce Clause (a tariff on foreign imports) for the positive purpose (benefit) of local manufactures.

He didn't say for the positive benefit of the General Government.

281 posted on 12/19/2004 11:47:09 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: tacticalogic
"No, what we have is you interpreting Madison to be saying that."

Baloney. These are your referenced letters. You should read them sometime.

In Madison's first letter to Cavel, he certainly does say that the Commerce Clause may be used discourage foreign imports to encourage local manufactures. Well, does he or not?

In his second letter, he admits to Cavel that this application of the Commerce Clause wasn't the original intent. Does he, or not?

282 posted on 12/19/2004 11:54:12 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
Cavel = Cabell.

(His close friends called him Cavel)

283 posted on 12/19/2004 11:55:58 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
Based on that, how can you conclude that the "original intent" is relevant? In this case, it's not.

That brings us back full-circle to the statement from you, at #25, that initially prompted my response. You said, "Do you believe the Founding Fathers would give Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, yet allow the individual states to undermine and subvert their regulatory efforts?"

Here you were invoking what you thought to be original intent. I said to you that your understanding of their intent is wrong, and that therefore you shouldn't rely on it in support of your argument. You're now saying that original intent is irrelevant, so that still confirms my statement: You shouldn't rely on it in support of your argument.

284 posted on 12/19/2004 12:05:47 PM PST by inquest (Now is the time to remove the leftist influence from the GOP. "Unity" can wait.)
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To: robertpaulsen
In Madison's first letter to Cavel, he certainly does say that the Commerce Clause may be used discourage foreign imports to encourage local manufactures. Well, does he or not?

He does.

In his second letter, he admits to Cavel that this application of the Commerce Clause wasn't the original intent. Does he, or not?

He does not admit that this application of the commerce clause was not the original intent, insofar as it pertains to foreign commerce. In fact he says in his first letter that it was indeed the original intent of the commerce power, as it pertains to foreign commerce, to promote manufactures through tariff protection.

285 posted on 12/19/2004 12:09:00 PM PST by inquest (Now is the time to remove the leftist influence from the GOP. "Unity" can wait.)
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To: Ancesthntr
if he was, then the Court could never have overruled Plessey v. Fergusen with Brown v. Board, and segregation would still be the law of the land

Brown did not overrule Plessy, in fact, it explicitly refused to do so.

Brown cited "modern psychological research" to forbid segregation's damaging effects on young minds.

This travesty greatly increased USSC power for no reason, since Brown was as pure an equal protection case as anyone could imagine. Deciding Brown on XIV Amendment grounds, however, would have thrown out Plessy, and Warren did not have the votes to do that.

286 posted on 12/19/2004 12:15:17 PM PST by Jim Noble (Colgate '72)
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To: robertpaulsen
If marijuana were treated the same as any other drug in the medical community, I would have no problem supporting it

Except then there would have to be actual data supporting the claims of "medical" marijuana.

287 posted on 12/19/2004 12:17:46 PM PST by Jim Noble (Colgate '72)
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To: robertpaulsen
It may restrict commerce. It may prohibit commerce.

If Congress has plenary power to impose restrictions on any and all forms of commerce, even those which occur entirely within the confines of a single state, what is the purpose of the words [quoting from memory] "...among the several States, and with foreign nations, and with Indian Tribes?"

It is by no means necessary to find that all of the words in a law change the meaning compared with what it would be in their absense, but they should at minimum allow a reader to think some particular interpretation is more or less plausible than it would be in those words' absense.

For example, the opening phrase of the Second Amendment: "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" is not restrictive the second part, but does clarify that the "arms" referred to in therein aren't just "hunting and sporting firearms".

So returning to 1.8.3, what interpretation is either made possible or precluded by the "...among the several states, etc." language? Why did Madison not just write "to pass laws related to Commerce;" and be done with it?

288 posted on 12/19/2004 12:24:16 PM PST by supercat (To call the Constitution a 'living document' is to call a moth-infested overcoat a 'living garment'.)
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To: inquest
"Here you were invoking what you thought to be original intent."

No I wasn't. It was just a general question meant to provoke thought. I made no claim of "original intent", nor did I apply any relevance to it.

How in the heck did you read all that into my question? Geez, cut down on the caffeine, would you?

Oh, and you can answer the question if you'd like.

289 posted on 12/19/2004 12:29:25 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
In Madison's first letter to Cavel, he certainly does say that the Commerce Clause may be used discourage foreign imports to encourage local manufactures. Well, does he or not?

Yes.

In his second letter, he admits to Cavel that this application of the Commerce Clause wasn't the original intent. Does he, or not?

No. The seeming contradiction is created by you when you try to extend the commerce power to prohibit foreign trade to include prohibiting internal trade.

290 posted on 12/19/2004 12:30:11 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: robertpaulsen
Here's poster #2 making an excellent case on why the phamaceuticals should NOT be spending millions to develop drugs using the cannabinoids in marijuana.

Aspirin has never undergone all the paperwork protocols that would be required to bring a drug to market today. Should it be taken off the market until someone does all the necessary research? If it was, would anybody do the necessary research given that asprin is non-patentable?

There are some people whose lives are clearly and unambiguously improved by smoking pot. There are other people whose lives are made worse. There are many others whose lives aren't really affected much one way or the other. Unfortunately, when banning pot, or guns, or most other products that can be good or bad, the people most affected by the ban are usually the ones for whom the products would be beneficial.

291 posted on 12/19/2004 12:32:13 PM PST by supercat (To call the Constitution a 'living document' is to call a moth-infested overcoat a 'living garment'.)
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To: robertpaulsen
When Madison used the phrase, "for the positive purposes of the General Government", he was referring to the federal government using the power of the Commerce Clause (a tariff on foreign imports) for the positive purpose (benefit) of local manufactures.

He said it was not intended "for the positive purposes of the General Government", when applied to the regulation of commerce among the several states.

292 posted on 12/19/2004 12:37:20 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: supercat
"even those which occur entirely within the confines of a single state"

Congress has no power to regulate the commerce which occurs entirely within the confines of a single state. Congress does have the power to regulate the commerce which occurs entirely within the confines of a single state if that commerce has a substantial effect on the interstate commerce that Congress is regulating.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" is not restrictive the second part,"

I don't want to go off on a second amendment tangent here, but a number of lower federal courts have ruled that it is restrictive.

I'm assuming the above is your opinion?

293 posted on 12/19/2004 12:43:14 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
"Here you were invoking what you thought to be original intent."

No I wasn't. It was just a general question meant to provoke thought.

It's pretty obvious that your question was worded in such a way as to elicit a particular answer.

294 posted on 12/19/2004 12:48:41 PM PST by inquest (Now is the time to remove the leftist influence from the GOP. "Unity" can wait.)
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To: tacticalogic
Well, let's see if I can summarize.

Congress can regulate commerce with foreign Nations for the positive purposes of the General Government, is that correct?

But you're saying that Congress cannot regulate commerce among the several states for the positive purposes of the General Government, is that correct? Can you tell me why not?

295 posted on 12/19/2004 12:51:22 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: Jim Noble
"Except then there would have to be actual data supporting the claims of "medical" marijuana."

For starters.

Then, I'd like to see how "medical" marijuana stacks up against the 10 to 20 existing FDA-approved drugs that have been on the market for the last 10 to 20 years.

People are talking about marijuana like it's some miracle drug that will do things no other drug can. So far, it seems to come in close to the bottom when compared to existing drugs. It's crap.

296 posted on 12/19/2004 12:57:31 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: inquest
"It's pretty obvious that your question was worded in such a way as to elicit a particular answer."

Logically, yes. And if we weren't talking about marijuana commerce, you would see that.

297 posted on 12/19/2004 1:00:41 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
Congress has no power to regulate the commerce which occurs entirely within the confines of a single state. Congress does have the power to regulate the commerce which occurs entirely within the confines of a single state if that commerce has a substantial effect on the interstate commerce that Congress is regulating.

Can you give any example of any commercial activity someone could engage in that could not somehow affect interstate commerce?

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state" is not restrictive the second part,"

I don't want to go off on a second amendment tangent here, but a number of lower federal courts have ruled that it is restrictive.

A number of lower courts have cited the syllabus from U.S. v. Miller. Whether this is a result of judges being lazy or having an agenda I won't say, but a syllabus to a court decision has no legal weight (it generally isn't even written by a judge). In U.S. v. Miller, the Supreme Court held that the first part of the amendment serves to define the term "Arms" used by the second. The term does not extend to everything that could conceivably be used as a weapon, but rather to those items which would be well-suited for use as arms in a well-functioning citizen army. The Supreme Court held that it was the duty of the defendant to supply evidence of such suitability. Had the government not offered the surviving co-defendant a plea-bargain for time served, he would have been able to present such evidence and thus prevailed.

Can you think of any other court decision in which the government has offered a defendant a plea-bargain after "winning"?

298 posted on 12/19/2004 1:05:28 PM PST by supercat (To call the Constitution a 'living document' is to call a moth-infested overcoat a 'living garment'.)
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To: supercat
"Can you give any example of any commercial activity someone could engage in that could not somehow affect interstate commerce?"

Please read my entire post. I said, "Congress does have the power to regulate the commerce which occurs entirely within the confines of a single state if that commerce has a substantial effect on the interstate commerce that Congress is regulating.

If your intrastate activity is not substantially affecting some commerce that Congress is currently regulating, you're golden. This would leave out things like your own local radio station, private airport, railroad, things like that.

299 posted on 12/19/2004 1:49:10 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
Hence, it was more than just a question; it was a statement. And since it concerned what the founders supposedly intended to say, you were commenting on original intent. Which you now say is irrelevant.
300 posted on 12/19/2004 1:49:18 PM PST by inquest (Now is the time to remove the leftist influence from the GOP. "Unity" can wait.)
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