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GIRL WRESTLER: Should girls and boys should be able to wrestle on the same mat?
Independent Lens / PBS ^ | 12/17/2004 | Diane Zander

Posted on 12/19/2004 12:59:24 AM PST by quietolong

Girl Wrestler

Texas teenager Tara Neal insists that girls and boys should be able to wrestle on the same mat.

Filmmaker Diane Zander follows Neal through the last year in which state guidelines allow her to wrestle boys.

It's a year filled with family conflict, pressure to cut weight and fierce policy debates over Title IX, which grants women's athletics proportionality in public schools

Link to show


(Excerpt) Read more at pbs.org ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: cauliflowerear; ringworm; sports; title9; titleix; wrestling
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I really felt sorry for those boy in the show. The look on there face. Do I really half to do this crap. Or were do I grab her next....

A no win situation. If you win. You beat up a girl. If you lose. You got beat by a girl.
Some just take a dive.

Is this the message we want to teach boys? It’s OK to throw girls around?

One sad note from the update page:
After joining her high school wrestling team and still not being allowed to practice with or wrestle against boys, Tara decided to leave the team. In 2004, Tara and her boyfriend Andrew had a baby daughter.

Still in school and haveing a kid.

One interesting thing. As I was watching this show. One of my daughters who is a senior in HS ( wrestling is a Very big thing in our school) came in a watched the show.

And I asked her if there’s any girls at our school who want to go out for this. And she said No.
As a matter of fact she said the teem was even trying to recruit some girls for the lower weight classes. So when they went to matches. The other teem would half to forfeit because there was no one in that weight class and the teem would get the points.
They found no takers.

To bad we got some good healthy farm girls ( and I don’t mean fat) around here.
Heck my one daughter here can pickup and fling a 80 lb. bale of hay. ( and goes deer hunting too)

1 posted on 12/19/2004 12:59:24 AM PST by quietolong
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To: quietolong

When I took judo as a teenager, I had to throw/get thrown by girls. When I took martial arts as an adult, my practice opponents were often women. I don't see the big deal, but I'm sure there will be plenty of opinions.


2 posted on 12/19/2004 1:03:20 AM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: quietolong
I really felt sorry for those boy in the show.

Looked at the picture. She's not Rosie O'Donnell. From the looks of it, I might have actually have gone out for wrestling if they'd done this in my day. In fact, I know I would have.
3 posted on 12/19/2004 1:05:38 AM PST by Arkinsaw
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To: quietolong

We had a girl wrestler on our team when I was a Junior. She was quite and athlete and although she was into the girl power thing, she was very christian and very conservative as well (I attempted to date her the next year but thats another story).

Anyway, She was our 103 Lb wrestler. why is that? She beat the guy trying to be the 103 lb wrestler (a freshman who ended up placing 5th at states 4 years later). She was strong, 103 lbs was very close to her natural weight. We got into some tournaments later in the year and she didnt have to cut weight, could run forever and was very strong for a girl. In her matches, she showed that she was stronger than the guys she was wrestling!!!

It isnt a sexual thing on the mat, it is one on one. Anyone seeing the girl for being a girl and not just as another competitor is wrong on all counts. The girls can hang, if given a chance. At least that is my experience.


4 posted on 12/19/2004 1:06:07 AM PST by MikefromOhio (22 days until I can leave Iraq and stop selling hotdogs in Baghdad....and boycotting boycotts)
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To: Larry Lucido
Did you ever participate in tournaments? If so, were you ever forced to fight a female? I participated in a few but men and women were always in separate classes.
5 posted on 12/19/2004 1:07:40 AM PST by Texas_Jarhead (I believe in American Exceptionalism! Do you?)
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To: quietolong

I think you mean "team".


6 posted on 12/19/2004 1:07:42 AM PST by Straight Vermonter (Liberalism: The irrational fear of self reliance.)
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To: quietolong

besides at 13-14 years old, they shoudl allow the kids to cut weight anyway. at least that is the way they did it at my high school in Ohio. If you were under 16, you werent cutting weight. You either bumped up and beat the guy in the weight class above you or you wrestled JV....


7 posted on 12/19/2004 1:10:30 AM PST by MikefromOhio (22 days until I can leave Iraq and stop selling hotdogs in Baghdad....and boycotting boycotts)
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To: Straight Vermonter

oops darn keyboard


8 posted on 12/19/2004 1:12:31 AM PST by quietolong
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To: Larry Lucido
This type of situation with a young woman would be exceedingly embarrassing for the young men that I have coached. When I was wrestling I don't think I would have competed against a girl.


9 posted on 12/19/2004 1:12:51 AM PST by Straight Vermonter (Liberalism: The irrational fear of self reliance.)
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To: MikeinIraq

besides at 13-14 years old, they shoudl allow the kids to cut weight anyway




make that they SHOULDN'T allow the kids to cut weight away...


10 posted on 12/19/2004 1:13:11 AM PST by MikefromOhio (22 days until I can leave Iraq and stop selling hotdogs in Baghdad....and boycotting boycotts)
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To: Straight Vermonter

having wrestled with a girl on the team, it isnt that horrible.

The girl I had on my team was just as much one of the guys as anyone else. She tried just as hard, never asked out or dropped out of runs and she was always intense. She would always do what the guys did (with the exception of grabass in the shower) and she won some matches.

If she beat the guys one on one, whats the deal? the better person won the match. If the kid took a dive it is his fault, he had to get the job done no matter who it is against. It isnt personal, its competition


11 posted on 12/19/2004 1:15:49 AM PST by MikefromOhio (22 days until I can leave Iraq and stop selling hotdogs in Baghdad....and boycotting boycotts)
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To: Texas_Jarhead

Nope, practice only, not competitive, so I'll have to defer to others on the pros and cons there.


12 posted on 12/19/2004 1:19:22 AM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: MikeinIraq

I don't have an issue with girls playing from a competitive standpoint. I simply acknowledge that adolescents being in such close proximity can be problematic. I would have felt very uncomfortable having to grab a girl in a wrestling hold but hey I was a shy kid too.


13 posted on 12/19/2004 1:29:10 AM PST by Straight Vermonter (Liberalism: The irrational fear of self reliance.)
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To: Straight Vermonter

yeah....

I only had to drill with Rebecca one time during practice, but considering I was much bigger at the time (I was the 215 LB class, she was the 103 LB), she held her own perfectly well.

It is up to the coaches to make sure the kids know it is a competition, because in just a few years, they will be competing with girls for jobs, scholarships and everything else. Gotta start somewhere, but you just cant look across the mat and see a girl. You need to see the girl as another competitor. It probably sounds too simple, but for me, it is really easy.


14 posted on 12/19/2004 1:32:28 AM PST by MikefromOhio (22 days until I can leave Iraq and stop selling hotdogs in Baghdad....and boycotting boycotts)
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To: quietolong
in my impersonation of Austin Powers:

Yeah Baby!

15 posted on 12/19/2004 1:34:18 AM PST by monkeyshine
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To: MikeinIraq

What do you think about woman in combat? It’s really an off shoot of this.
I was in one of the first 2 west cost squadrons to integrate woman in to sea duty. So I have seen some of the problems first hand.


16 posted on 12/19/2004 1:36:07 AM PST by quietolong
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To: quietolong
GIRL WRESTLER: Should girls and boys should be able to wrestle on the same mat?

Given how much gripping and touching is involved (though it is not sexual) in wrestling I do see how this could be allowed right now given this country's lawsuit happy laywers and how high the risk a sexual harassment lawsuit, or sexual assult case would be presently.

17 posted on 12/19/2004 1:42:02 AM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: quietolong

Women will rue the day they tried to train men to view them as competitors.


18 posted on 12/19/2004 1:42:41 AM PST by Nick Danger (Want some wood?)
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To: quietolong

laywers = lawyers


19 posted on 12/19/2004 1:42:42 AM PST by Paul C. Jesup
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To: quietolong
I would say no in a competitive situation.

When my wife and I were dating 35 years ago, we wrestled all the time. My children wrestled all the time as they were growing up. This was FUN and TICKLING each other and so forth. FWIW, I do not support this. Further, I do not support women in the military if they are there to hunt husbands. Military is to execute WAR COMBAT solutions.

20 posted on 12/19/2004 1:43:24 AM PST by Cobra64 (Babes should wear Bullet Bras - www.BulletBras.net)
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To: quietolong

its an offshoot that is semi-related, but also two subjects with completely different circumstances and outcomes....

women in combat for me is a no. It has been documented why, but for the most part, they cannot handle the physical strain. MEN sometimes can't handle the physical strain from time to time, which is why the spec ops guys are the elite and our Infantry is right behind. YOU must be able to march with sometimes as much as 2/3rds your body weight in extreme cases. Half of your body weight is too much for a long journey, but if you have to carry a radio along with other things you will achieve that instantly. A woman's bone structure is such that there will be great strain on her knees and hips, not to mention back issues and ankle issues.

Women on the mat is a bit different. It isnt life or death. It is a competition. I have seen girls more than hold their own up to the 119 lb class. After that, the guys get too big and are too strong.


21 posted on 12/19/2004 1:43:48 AM PST by MikefromOhio (22 days until I can leave Iraq and stop selling hotdogs in Baghdad....and boycotting boycotts)
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To: quietolong
Hey - Sarah Michelle Gellar, who has a martial arts black belt showed even girls can take on big guys. If you've seen her on Buffy you know what I mean.
22 posted on 12/19/2004 1:44:03 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Cobra64

From experience, it isnt that bad. Just look at what I posted further up.

The coaches can hold great sway on this issue. Girls can hold their own in the lower classes at well. You would be surprised :)

and no it isnt at all sexual. Wrestlers have respect (they are supposed too at any rate) for each other...


23 posted on 12/19/2004 1:45:52 AM PST by MikefromOhio (22 days until I can leave Iraq and stop selling hotdogs in Baghdad....and boycotting boycotts)
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To: quietolong

I wrestled in high school but would NOT have wanted to wrestle a girl. If you've ever wrestled, you know your hands have to go wherever you can get a grip. If that's through the crotch and under the thigh or back, to help you get a cradle to pin your opponent, that's what you have to do--and your opponent is squirming, "bridging" (raising their shoulder blades above the mat by using their neck muscles) -- all this is normal and fine in the heat of the moment and is not sexual in same-sex matches. You put coed opponents in there, and you throw a HUGE new set of dynamics in there. Real wrestling is rough and hands are everywhere. Girls shouldn't be in the ring with boys. We had "Wrestlerettes" who cheered us. Sexist? No. Gender-appropriate. I didn't go out for Powderpuff Football, either, honey.


24 posted on 12/19/2004 1:51:46 AM PST by The Spirit Of Allegiance (REMEMBER THE ALGOREAMO--relentlessly hammer on the TRUTH, like the Dems demand recounts)
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To: quietolong; Larry Lucido

THis is a big deal -- I couldnt' hit a woman, my mind would stop my fist. School kids with the same mindset will keep losing to the girl


25 posted on 12/19/2004 1:59:37 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11)
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To: goldstategop
Your joking?, right? martial arts? whats that?, oh I know now. Martial arts is some clown who states that women taking his classes and giving him $$ can actually be safe on the streets with this knowledge. Reality is martial arts will only give the female a false sense of security, a 105 lb female will be no match for a 250 lb assailant. If women really want to be safe on the street better a trip to the local gun shop then to a martial arts course...well unless she is just looking for some exercise.
26 posted on 12/19/2004 2:01:47 AM PST by BOOTSTICK (MEET ME IN KANSAS CITY)
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To: Cronos

the kids need to learn to get the job done.

You arent hitting each other. At worst you will be on top of her, but it isnt in a sexual way. If you dont want to do it, forfeit. But for your teammates you go out there and do your level best to win that match and the points for your team.


27 posted on 12/19/2004 2:02:44 AM PST by MikefromOhio (22 days until I can leave Iraq and stop selling hotdogs in Baghdad....and boycotting boycotts)
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To: Blurblogger

Too much testosterone pride involved for a teenage guy to be whipped by a girl. Who says life is fair? ;-)


28 posted on 12/19/2004 2:13:01 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: BOOTSTICK
It won't stop a guy with a gun but the point of martial arts is to allow one to get away from danger and live another day by immobilizing your opponent. In real life, its not going to get any one dusted like in Buffy but its going to make opponents know you can defend yourself. Knowing how to do it effectively in the long run makes for a safer society.
29 posted on 12/19/2004 2:16:29 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Cronos
I don't get it, when I was in high school I did some wrestling, but there were not enough opponents big enough to be competitive { I weighed 310 lbs} so I played football. If I had to wrestle a girl I would do my up most to end her career on the mat, and I would do my up most to make her feel like she was in a cheap porno flick. I'm tired of the feminist double standard, it reminds me of the time when I was watching ABC's Wide world Of Sports, they had an exhibition of how females can protect themselves via the martial arts. This wise ass chick decides to go full bore and tries to K.O. the then retired, former Karate World champion, so she being a 110 lb woman kicks the X-champ upside the head, not only did the X-champ not go down, but he became a tad upset, since this was to be a "no contact" exhibition. The X-champ decided to kick this woman upside her head sending her through the ropes and onto the floor unconscious, however when she came to he did apologize and gave her a kiss on the cheek. The lesson here is....girls stick to the field hockey and softball, and leave the real sports to the men.
30 posted on 12/19/2004 2:19:49 AM PST by BOOTSTICK (MEET ME IN KANSAS CITY)
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To: quietolong
Is this the message we want to teach boys? It’s OK to throw girls around?

The boy should wrestle to win - beating down a girl is better than being beaten down by a girl, if you ask me. If she wants to compete, he should give her everything he has and not worry about where to grab her, etc. Just beat her (if he can).

And may the best athlete win, in any case! :-)

31 posted on 12/19/2004 2:22:22 AM PST by HitmanLV (HitmanNY has a brand new Blog!! Please Visit! - http://www.goldust.com/weblog -)
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To: BOOTSTICK

In organized sports like wrestling, a woman will be at a disadvantage because she will have a slightly higher percentage of body fat, which means she will have slightly less muscle. However, particularly in the lower weight classes, this disadvantage can be overcome with skill and fighting spirit.

I'm 46 and weigh 160 lbs. I work a 50-60 hour week, mostly sedentary. I run & lift weights, but am in no way a serious athlete. If I had to go in the ring with one of our women's judo olympic competitors, she could play with me as long as she felt like & finish me off at will - I wouldn't stand a chance.

That doesn't mean martial arts are an end all for women - after all, few women are serious athletes either. Fortunately, neither is the average thug. And the average thug isn't looking for someone he can beat after a 15 minute brawl. A woman who knows how to throw a real punch, or one who knows how to escape from a headlock/twisted arm, has a much better chance of escaping than someone who knows nothing. Unfortunately, most MAs are taught in McDojos where the woman is taught she is invincible - a real bad idea since size counts. There is a reason why there are weight classes in judo, boxing, etc.

As for wrestling, I'm on the side of "Let 'em try". Most will not be able to compete. Those that can are welcome to. Nor would I look down on a 130 lb boy who lost to a 130 lb girl - she may be only a few pounds lighter in muscle mass, and know more technique.

Women in combat - I'm opposed. The number of women who can pull their own weight isn't high enough to justify the effort, and there are too many sexual problems brought with them.


32 posted on 12/19/2004 2:28:07 AM PST by Mr Rogers
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To: BOOTSTICK

If I had to wrestle a girl I would do my up most to end her career on the mat, and I would do my up most to make her feel like she was in a cheap porno flick.

-------

The lesson here is....girls stick to the field hockey and softball, and leave the real sports to the men.




You are serious arent you? You know that if you have an intent to injure you lose the match immediately and then you get to be the butt of jokes that you couldnt beat the girl, you tried to injure her, not a situation I would like to be in.

I beat a couple of heavyweights that were pushing that 275 lb mark, both of whom happened to be making fun of the girl on our team, saying garbage like you just said. I was 205 lbs at the time and pinned both of them. It isnt the size or the sex of the dog in the fight, but the fight in that dog....


33 posted on 12/19/2004 2:28:53 AM PST by MikefromOhio (22 days until I can leave Iraq and stop selling hotdogs in Baghdad....and boycotting boycotts)
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To: goldstategop
I got news for you, I don't care if some 110 woman has a dozen black belts hanging around her waist, this martial arts stuff is 100% pure garbage. In real life { not the baloney some martial arts instructor hands you} when a 110 lb woman is punched in the face by a 250 lb man she is going down, and not likely to get up. The martial arts industry is in the business to take $$ from the naive, it's as phony as some clown breaking a stack of concrete slabs with his hand {requires no special skill, just a basic understanding of physics}. I remember the day I was over my brothers house and some martial arts instructor was there and how he was bragging he could disarm someone from 10 feet away, well I bet him that I could borrow my neighbors paint ball gun, and if he could disarm me before I shot him, I would pay him $1000, and if he couldn't he would pay me $1000 , needless to say he declined the opportunity.
34 posted on 12/19/2004 2:29:10 AM PST by BOOTSTICK (MEET ME IN KANSAS CITY)
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To: BOOTSTICK

You set up two straw men.

1 - No one on this thread has said a 110 pound woman has a decent chance against a 250 lb man. That is why there are weight classes. However, my 120 pound daughter did once put her 135 lb date face first on the floor of the mall after he decided to play with her tits (ended the date, BTW). And my wife has bloodied the nose of an instructor (academic) who asked her for sex (she didn't tell me about it until several years later).

2 - there are martial arts studios (majority, IMHO) where they take your money & teach nothing of value. That doesn't mean that punches, throws and locks do not exist, or cannot be taught.


35 posted on 12/19/2004 2:38:31 AM PST by Mr Rogers
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To: MikeinIraq
I would do my up most to humiliate her as best I could, since she has no business on the mat, unless she is doing a tumbling floor exercise. And it is quite easy to rub someones face into the mat , as well as other techniques that can be quite painful yet are 100% legal. Better to abuse some female on the mat, then to lose to her and become a "nancyboy".I guess you would support men/women boxing too since they are also set by weight classifications?
36 posted on 12/19/2004 2:39:17 AM PST by BOOTSTICK (MEET ME IN KANSAS CITY)
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To: BOOTSTICK

I guess you would support men/women boxing too since they are also set by weight classifications?





They allow mixed boxing? I had no idea....so no I dont. That involved hitting.

In wrestling, there is skill involved.


37 posted on 12/19/2004 2:44:21 AM PST by MikefromOhio (22 days until I can leave Iraq and stop selling hotdogs in Baghdad....and boycotting boycotts)
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To: MikeinIraq
At worst you will be on top of her, but it isnt in a sexual way.

True enough -- but I'm just saying I couldn't do it, there'd be a mental block saying "you can't do this to a girl".
38 posted on 12/19/2004 2:46:20 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11)
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To: BOOTSTICK

310 lbs?????? bluidy heel, ye're a big lad, ain't you? I'm about 200 lbs myself and 6'1", but 310 lbs, sheesh, slamming into you would be like hitting a brick wall!!


39 posted on 12/19/2004 2:48:16 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11)
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To: Cronos

yeah....

that is when, as a coach, I tell you to forget the sex and wrestle the opponent for your team mates.....

It happens man...


40 posted on 12/19/2004 2:48:42 AM PST by MikefromOhio (22 days until I can leave Iraq and stop selling hotdogs in Baghdad....and boycotting boycotts)
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To: BOOTSTICK
girls stick to the field hockey and softball, and leave the real sports to the men.

Well, I don't agree with that -- girls can and should play any sport they want to -- it's just that in contact sports men and women mixing isn't really a good idea -- the furthest you can go is soccer. Tennis etc are fine for men-women pairings. If girls want to wrestle, that's ok, as long as it's with each other -- elseways it gets too awkward for the guys (I have no doubts some girls could do it pretty well but there'd always be the thought that the guys weren't given their 100% against her)
41 posted on 12/19/2004 2:51:51 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11)
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To: quietolong

My son's last year wrestling was 4 years ago, but we saw exactly what you're talking about several times. I think your summary of the issues is pretty good.

In many cases, wrestlers would forfeit rather than wrestle a girl. I really is just a bad deal all around.


42 posted on 12/19/2004 2:58:38 AM PST by FreedomPoster
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To: Mr Rogers

As per your claim of straw dog #1, please refer to post # 22.


43 posted on 12/19/2004 3:00:42 AM PST by BOOTSTICK (MEET ME IN KANSAS CITY)
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To: Larry Lucido

Wrestling is a *lot* more "intimate" than judo ever thought about being. I really just don't think mixed-gender martial wrestling is a good idea (martial as opposed to recreational, if you get my drift. . . ).


44 posted on 12/19/2004 3:01:30 AM PST by FreedomPoster
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To: Mr Rogers

Again -- I'm not opposed to girls playing any sport they like -- including wrestling. I just don't think they should play contact sports with the guys -- it puts the guys in the spot and, in my opinion, at a disadvantage.


45 posted on 12/19/2004 3:03:16 AM PST by Cronos (Never forget 9/11)
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To: HitmanNY

What you say sound good in theory but what are most boys taught from an early age.
It’s not OK to hit girls, There are places you don’t touch a girl & so on....
So now you take young boys and put them on the mat with a girl.
Were do you grab them? If you watch the story. You can see some of the boys trying to answer this. When they would normally do a quick clamp around the chest. There hesitating and pulling on the arms.
Remember were talking about 7 & up here.


46 posted on 12/19/2004 3:07:05 AM PST by quietolong
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To: Cronos
I don't care for all this Title 9 crap, let's face it there are some sports for the girls, but in general sports are within the realm of manly things. This is the reason most will not pay good money to see a girl hit a softball 230 feet, but will pay good money to see a man hit a baseball 440 feet. Just as when girls gymnastics go up against the NFL on the TV guess who more people are going to watch?
47 posted on 12/19/2004 3:07:08 AM PST by BOOTSTICK (MEET ME IN KANSAS CITY)
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To: Mr Rogers

You can squash a guy's eyeballs in or knee him in the groin. Its not for the faint of heart but its your life or the bad guy's, its no time to be squeamish.


48 posted on 12/19/2004 3:15:16 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: BOOTSTICK

I believe we are talking about amateur wrestling and not professional sports here....


49 posted on 12/19/2004 3:16:03 AM PST by MikefromOhio (22 days until I can leave Iraq and stop selling hotdogs in Baghdad....and boycotting boycotts)
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To: BOOTSTICK

Remember how big the womans NBA was to be? don't hear much about it anymore.


50 posted on 12/19/2004 3:16:41 AM PST by quietolong
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