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Kibble for Thought: Dog diversity prompts new evolution theory
Science News ^ | 18 December 2004 | Christen Brownlee

Posted on 12/21/2004 8:45:42 AM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: MeanWestTexan
re: Mastiffs and Chijuaja(sp?) cannot naturally breed. Ergo, although they had a common ancestor just a few hundred years ago, they no are no longer the same species. And no, artificial insemination does not count.)))

It doesn't? Gee, a lot of horse farms will be interested to know that their horses ain't horses.

Since you credit the Chinese story of inter-primate breeding, should I believe you when you define two breeds of dogs as two species?

41 posted on 12/21/2004 9:20:20 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: Conspiracy Guy

Stop that, CG! I almost lost my lunch!


42 posted on 12/21/2004 9:20:27 AM PST by Tax-chick (Jesus is the reason for the season which begins at sundown on December 24.)
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To: oyez

Right, the one with the fish playing baseball...floating there with bat in fin, looking out at the ball that is on dry land.


43 posted on 12/21/2004 9:21:30 AM PST by KTpig
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To: Red Badger
Actually wasn't there a study recently that said that some "dogs" aren't even really dogs. But are actually rodents or something breed to look like dogs. I think chihuahua was one of them.

I can't find the dang article now. All I get is crap about those two airheads, Britney and Paris. Any one remember the article? I'm pretty sure it was this year, maybe this quarter.
44 posted on 12/21/2004 9:22:48 AM PST by Wisconsin155 (newbie)
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To: WildTurkey

...Wild Monkeys!


45 posted on 12/21/2004 9:22:48 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Tax-chick
Quit stalking me! ; ) Here is a nice picture.


46 posted on 12/21/2004 9:24:46 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (Boycott Boycotts Warrior. If you aint buying call me!)
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To: r9etb
Mammals are highly complex, so there's always that 'out' for the speciation-ist. But I know of a FR thread where a very fancy scientist claimed, over a year ago, to have "created" a new species of fruit fly.

There was no such fly, it was a lie...perhaps he'll die...

But it did get me thinking about the humble fruit fly and all that creature has contributed to the study of genetics without happening to "evolve" in the laboratory! The life cycle of a fruit fly is very brief, and scientists have been monkeying with them for *hundreds* of years in labs all over the world. You'd think, wouldn't you--that there'd be a new one by now, just by accident?

I don't happen to hold with ID--though it makes better sense than evolution. It's all a matter of time--and who controls the wheels of time.

47 posted on 12/21/2004 9:25:29 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: bondserv
The editor at CreationSafaris has an interesting take on these "findings":

Introducing the Stretch & Squish Theory of Evolution

How do you stretch an arm into a wing, or a fin into a leg? This sounds like the silly putty theory of evolution. An intelligent kid can purposefully make things out of silly putty, but the putty by itself is silly and has no goal in mind. Put the silly putty into a random machine of moving parts and chaos results.

Other problems quickly evolve from this theory. What if the top of the dog’s snout gets stretched by a tandem repeat mutation, but the bottom jaw does not? The dog can’t eat. What if the mutated dog can eat, but cannot find a mate with the same mutation? And don’t these guys know that dog breeding is not evolution, but intelligent design?

For these and other reasons, this Silly Putty theory of evolution gets Stupid Evolution Quote of the Week: their final sentence in the paper makes tandem repeats responsible for all the beauty and variety of living things:

How broadly this mode of evolutionary change is exploited [sic] in nature remains to be seen, but if the prevalence of repetitive elements within genes is any indicator, then mammals, insects, plants, and other genomes throughout the natural world may use this mechanism [sic] to achieve evolutionary agility.

“Evolutionary agility” – now there is an equivocation for the record books. How did a lizard learn to fly? By evolutionary agility. How did an ape learn to build spacecraft? By evolutionary agility. How did a dog learn to become a whale and dive deep into the ocean, navigating by sonar? By evolutionary agility. What an agile concept.

Papers like this diminish the prestige of the National Academy of Sciences. Peer review is supposed to prevent dumb ideas from getting published. If it were not for the desperation of the Darwin Party to keep sending new ideas up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes, they would have been forced to admit defeat long ago. This entry’s only value is in pointing out that the old neo-Darwinian theory of natural selection, acting on point mutations, is inadequate to account for the rapid change found in the fossil record. That is an admission that supports creation, not evolution.

Link

48 posted on 12/21/2004 9:26:10 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo (The best theory is not ipso facto a good theory.)
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To: Conspiracy Guy

Oh, dat is sweet. Flop-eared bunny.


49 posted on 12/21/2004 9:26:18 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: MeanWestTexan

"In vitro" is different from "in vivo" from "in the wild." (Seems the Romans were very civilized, no Latin for "in the wild.")


50 posted on 12/21/2004 9:27:37 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Mamzelle

"It doesn't? Gee, a lot of horse farms will be interested to know that their horses ain't horses."

Don't be silly!

The distinction is, of course, that horses (with the possible exception of, say, Shetland ponies and Clysdales) can naturally breed, and would not have to rely on artificial reproduction, as would a Mastiff and a Taco Bell dog.

The scientific definition of a "species" is well known; it's not mine.

To take the issue to a less emotional topic than inter-primate breeding, Google "Liger" and see what you find.


51 posted on 12/21/2004 9:27:46 AM PST by MeanWestTexan
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To: Conspiracy Guy

Thanks!


52 posted on 12/21/2004 9:29:07 AM PST by Tax-chick (Jesus is the reason for the season which begins at sundown on December 24.)
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To: PatrickHenry

Pomeranians were bred down from close to 30 pounds in Queen Victoria’s day to the present 6 or 7 pounds. Mine is a larger – weighing in at about 11 pounds – but he still thinks he’s a giant sled dog of the North as his ancestors were when they pulled sledges in Lapland.
He will take on any dog that offers a challenge, even taking out an adult Rottweiler several years ago – when he was much younger and it better shape.


53 posted on 12/21/2004 9:32:09 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: MeanWestTexan
I like the familiar mule better, since I've known several on a first-name basis.

Did you know that there are two kinds of horse-mule crosses? The most useful is when a donkey male meets horse female--but donkey females can carry the offspring of a horse male. The usual sure-footed and intelligent mule is the offspring of a horse female. The other kind is less useful, harder to manage.

That a Irish Wolhound male would produce a killing offspring in a toy poodle female--I don't doubt. But this is a matter of size, rather than breed.

54 posted on 12/21/2004 9:33:36 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: Rodney King

You hate dogs ONLY because you haven't met mine yet. I tell people who hate fish that it is only because they have never caught a fish and eaten it the same day. Those store bought fish are old. Same thing with dogs, mine are so WONDERFUL you would change your mind and want one. ;9)


55 posted on 12/21/2004 9:34:57 AM PST by Ditter
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To: orionblamblam
One more bit of evidence for evolution to add to the mountain. One more bit of serious annoyance to the Poofists. Gotta love it!

If you thought things through, you would see how patently ridiculous these assertions are. The evidence screams out against it.

Darwinism really has taken on the mentality of the Left.

56 posted on 12/21/2004 9:36:21 AM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical! [Check out my profile page])
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To: MeanWestTexan
More about the fascinating mule--even Isaac Asimov like them.

While mules are sterile, they can be nominally male and female. The males are called "jacks", the females "jenny."

You can also cross other horse breeds--there have been known zebra-jackass crossings, a useless and misbegotton creature. All sterile.

57 posted on 12/21/2004 9:37:04 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: Ditter
You hate dogs ONLY because you haven't met mine yet. I tell people who hate fish that it is only because they have never caught a fish and eaten it the same day. Those store bought fish are old. Same thing with dogs, mine are so WONDERFUL you would change your mind and want one. ;9)

Oh, I just hate little dogs. I love real dogs. I have a 6 month old rhodesian ridgeback - 45 pounds - on the way to 80-85 pounds. She is the greatest.

58 posted on 12/21/2004 9:37:05 AM PST by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

"In vitro" is different from "in vivo" from "in the wild." (Seems the Romans were very civilized, no Latin for "in the wild.")"

Doesn't matter, be in IVF or mere artificial insemination (in vivo) ---- any artificial joining necessary for breeding means that animals are not the same species, per the definition.

Now, this is not the ONLY distinction for two species, which is to what I presume you are alluding.

For example, lions and tigers (unarguably two distinct species of cat) sometimes mate in zoos --- resulting in a Liger --- with no artificial help, other than being locked up together.

But, I am keeping the issue simple and not talking about all the other factors that go into defining a "species" --- as natural reproduction is necessary to be the same species.


59 posted on 12/21/2004 9:37:25 AM PST by MeanWestTexan
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
They say things so well at Creation-Evolution Headlines. Smart bunch of folks.
60 posted on 12/21/2004 9:37:27 AM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical! [Check out my profile page])
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