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Kibble for Thought: Dog diversity prompts new evolution theory
Science News ^ | 18 December 2004 | Christen Brownlee

Posted on 12/21/2004 8:45:42 AM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: Mamzelle

"It doesn't? Gee, a lot of horse farms will be interested to know that their horses ain't horses."

Don't be silly!

The distinction is, of course, that horses (with the possible exception of, say, Shetland ponies and Clysdales) can naturally breed, and would not have to rely on artificial reproduction, as would a Mastiff and a Taco Bell dog.

The scientific definition of a "species" is well known; it's not mine.

To take the issue to a less emotional topic than inter-primate breeding, Google "Liger" and see what you find.


51 posted on 12/21/2004 9:27:46 AM PST by MeanWestTexan
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To: Conspiracy Guy

Thanks!


52 posted on 12/21/2004 9:29:07 AM PST by Tax-chick (Jesus is the reason for the season which begins at sundown on December 24.)
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To: PatrickHenry

Pomeranians were bred down from close to 30 pounds in Queen Victoria’s day to the present 6 or 7 pounds. Mine is a larger – weighing in at about 11 pounds – but he still thinks he’s a giant sled dog of the North as his ancestors were when they pulled sledges in Lapland.
He will take on any dog that offers a challenge, even taking out an adult Rottweiler several years ago – when he was much younger and it better shape.


53 posted on 12/21/2004 9:32:09 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: MeanWestTexan
I like the familiar mule better, since I've known several on a first-name basis.

Did you know that there are two kinds of horse-mule crosses? The most useful is when a donkey male meets horse female--but donkey females can carry the offspring of a horse male. The usual sure-footed and intelligent mule is the offspring of a horse female. The other kind is less useful, harder to manage.

That a Irish Wolhound male would produce a killing offspring in a toy poodle female--I don't doubt. But this is a matter of size, rather than breed.

54 posted on 12/21/2004 9:33:36 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: Rodney King

You hate dogs ONLY because you haven't met mine yet. I tell people who hate fish that it is only because they have never caught a fish and eaten it the same day. Those store bought fish are old. Same thing with dogs, mine are so WONDERFUL you would change your mind and want one. ;9)


55 posted on 12/21/2004 9:34:57 AM PST by Ditter
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To: orionblamblam
One more bit of evidence for evolution to add to the mountain. One more bit of serious annoyance to the Poofists. Gotta love it!

If you thought things through, you would see how patently ridiculous these assertions are. The evidence screams out against it.

Darwinism really has taken on the mentality of the Left.

56 posted on 12/21/2004 9:36:21 AM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical! [Check out my profile page])
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To: MeanWestTexan
More about the fascinating mule--even Isaac Asimov like them.

While mules are sterile, they can be nominally male and female. The males are called "jacks", the females "jenny."

You can also cross other horse breeds--there have been known zebra-jackass crossings, a useless and misbegotton creature. All sterile.

57 posted on 12/21/2004 9:37:04 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: Ditter
You hate dogs ONLY because you haven't met mine yet. I tell people who hate fish that it is only because they have never caught a fish and eaten it the same day. Those store bought fish are old. Same thing with dogs, mine are so WONDERFUL you would change your mind and want one. ;9)

Oh, I just hate little dogs. I love real dogs. I have a 6 month old rhodesian ridgeback - 45 pounds - on the way to 80-85 pounds. She is the greatest.

58 posted on 12/21/2004 9:37:05 AM PST by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

"In vitro" is different from "in vivo" from "in the wild." (Seems the Romans were very civilized, no Latin for "in the wild.")"

Doesn't matter, be in IVF or mere artificial insemination (in vivo) ---- any artificial joining necessary for breeding means that animals are not the same species, per the definition.

Now, this is not the ONLY distinction for two species, which is to what I presume you are alluding.

For example, lions and tigers (unarguably two distinct species of cat) sometimes mate in zoos --- resulting in a Liger --- with no artificial help, other than being locked up together.

But, I am keeping the issue simple and not talking about all the other factors that go into defining a "species" --- as natural reproduction is necessary to be the same species.


59 posted on 12/21/2004 9:37:25 AM PST by MeanWestTexan
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
They say things so well at Creation-Evolution Headlines. Smart bunch of folks.
60 posted on 12/21/2004 9:37:27 AM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical! [Check out my profile page])
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To: PatrickHenry
A thread about both dogs and evolution. If only I could toss in the Civil War, we'd have a real winner here.

If one of them is a Calvinist or a Catholic it'd be even more fun. Especially if they were also an immigrant.

61 posted on 12/21/2004 9:38:22 AM PST by mafree
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To: bondserv

What's a Poofist? Does that mean the Big Bang, when everything went Bang and Poof?


62 posted on 12/21/2004 9:39:55 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: Mamzelle

I like the pig best.


63 posted on 12/21/2004 9:40:31 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (Boycott Boycotts Warrior. If you aint buying call me!)
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To: Mamzelle

We use mules and donkeys to protect our sheep from coyotes.

Not all mules are sterile.

Poor Isaac Assimov's was, of course. Best series of books I ever read.


64 posted on 12/21/2004 9:40:31 AM PST by MeanWestTexan
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To: Tax-chick

; )


65 posted on 12/21/2004 9:40:48 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (Boycott Boycotts Warrior. If you aint buying call me!)
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To: Conspiracy Guy

A baby pig is endearing. But he loses his appeal mighty fast.


66 posted on 12/21/2004 9:41:29 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: MeanWestTexan

Mules not sterile? Well, you need to get your jack and jenny together and make some history.


67 posted on 12/21/2004 9:42:32 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: Rodney King
Well I for one am a little dog hating. . .

Guess I'd better not tell Hope the Vicious what you said:

Michael M. Bates: My Side of the Swamp

68 posted on 12/21/2004 9:43:31 AM PST by Mike Bates (If you've been very, very good, Santa may give you. . . .)
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To: MeanWestTexan

What kind of sheep do you raise?


69 posted on 12/21/2004 9:43:52 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: MeanWestTexan

Of course.

Species is a interesting concept. Ring species shows that "can interbreed with" is not a transitive concept.


70 posted on 12/21/2004 9:44:38 AM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Mamzelle

Then they become bacon and sauage and bar b que. WoHooooooo!


71 posted on 12/21/2004 9:44:59 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (Boycott Boycotts Warrior. If you aint buying call me!)
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To: Conspiracy Guy

You forgot salt-cured and Smithfield.


72 posted on 12/21/2004 9:45:50 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: PatrickHenry

73 posted on 12/21/2004 9:47:25 AM PST by RedWhiteBlue
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To: Mamzelle

There is a use for everything but the oink.


74 posted on 12/21/2004 9:47:52 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (Boycott Boycotts Warrior. If you aint buying call me!)
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To: Mamzelle

It's very rare, but it does happen that you get a non-sterile mule.

Here:

http://www.imh.org/imh/bw/mule.html

Note it says "almost always sterile."


75 posted on 12/21/2004 9:48:22 AM PST by MeanWestTexan
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To: Conspiracy Guy

Looks like lunch for my Weim!


76 posted on 12/21/2004 9:50:32 AM PST by Weimdog
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To: Mamzelle; orionblamblam; Michael_Michaelangelo
What's a Poofist? Does that mean the Big Bang, when everything went Bang and Poof?

Yeah, that could be it.

Creationists are basing their "Theory" on the basis of a demonstrably non-linear source. Non-linear implying, outside of our time domain. The 100% accuracy of Biblical prophecy was all the authority needed to convince Sir Issac Newton to take a Creationist perspective in all of his research and discoveries.

"Poofists" with the only rational, intellectually honest perspective on reality.

77 posted on 12/21/2004 9:52:18 AM PST by bondserv (Alignment is critical! [Check out my profile page])
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To: Weimdog

Is that short for Weimaranerrammerjammeriner?


78 posted on 12/21/2004 9:52:23 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (Boycott Boycotts Warrior. If you aint buying call me!)
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To: Mamzelle

Most modern domesticated sheep breeds can no longer shed their wool. If they are not shorn regularly, they will die from the weight and burden of the long wool.

A recent example from the news: Shrek, captured after six years on the run, before being shorn.


79 posted on 12/21/2004 9:52:54 AM PST by forsnax5 (The greatest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.)
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To: Mamzelle

Stupid ones.

We mainly have Delaines, but we also have some meat sheep.

Actually, we've been making the most money off of goats lately. Send a lot to the middle east for them to sacrifice to their moon god.


80 posted on 12/21/2004 9:53:07 AM PST by MeanWestTexan
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To: MeanWestTexan
In fact, HUMANS and CHIMPS can be bred together via artificial insemination. The Chinese did this, impregnating female chimps with human sperm. Fortunately, the resulting creature was destroyed before term (or so the Chinese claim).

Do you have a source for this?

81 posted on 12/21/2004 9:53:13 AM PST by Modernman (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Benjamin Franklin)
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To: MeanWestTexan

I read the assertion in the link with some interest. I note that the terminology here is different from what I heard around the farm. But what is done with this non-sterile mule mentioned therin? Who's his baby?


82 posted on 12/21/2004 9:53:32 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: Rodney King
I had 2 Rhodesian, same parents but from different litters. Two of the best dogs I have ever had out of the dozens and dozens I have owned in my life. The male was magnificent, tall, husky but he had no ridge. Odie weighted 120 at his prime. Hazel was smaller but she was the brains of the outfit. Their ashes are on my bookshelf in urns. Hazel caught a new yardman in the back yard, put her mouth around the back of the mans thigh (lightly) and cut her eyes to me for further instruction. She would have taken him down if I had told her to.

I have Jack Russel Terriers now, the kind you hate but they are wonderful.

I will have a RR again someday, where did you get yours?
83 posted on 12/21/2004 9:53:59 AM PST by Ditter
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To: MeanWestTexan

There's a lot of Angora goats in West Texas...I seem to remember Sam Donaldson getting a nice tax break from the little horned poodles.


84 posted on 12/21/2004 9:54:50 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: Weimdog

My lab would play with them all unless I tossed them in the air and shot them over the water. Then she'd wait for me to signal and go get them.


85 posted on 12/21/2004 9:55:47 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (Boycott Boycotts Warrior. If you aint buying call me!)
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To: Mamzelle

Don't know. Never saw it happen myself.

Ironically, I learned that mules are not always sterile in Asimov's Foundation series --- had to go look it up, because, like you, I thought mules were always sterile.


86 posted on 12/21/2004 9:56:00 AM PST by MeanWestTexan
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To: Mamzelle

Angora = Emu, 10 years later, IMHO.

Not that I don't raise them and sell them to people with "ranches" outside of Houston, mind you.


87 posted on 12/21/2004 9:57:17 AM PST by MeanWestTexan
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To: PatrickHenry
For example, between the 1930s and today, purebred bull terriers developed longer, more down-turned noses.

I don't suppose that could be due to breeding choices of the owners???

88 posted on 12/21/2004 9:58:05 AM PST by trebb ("I am the way... no one comes to the Father, but by me..." - Jesus in John 14:6 (RSV))
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To: forsnax5

There's one not quite this bad on a route I travel--being kept as a pet, I fear, with no knowledge that they're going to have to get it shorn! I've been wondering whether to play the busybody and give them a call. Then they might expect me to find them a barber. Did you know that some wool producers now have a hormone they can inject into the sheep which will cause all the hair to fall off in a convenient fleece? I thought it would revolutionize wool production, but it is not widely used. I suspect it may harm the meat...?


89 posted on 12/21/2004 9:58:09 AM PST by Mamzelle (He's scared of me...! Honest, I won't hurt him!)
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To: weenie
Monkeys and humans cannot mate and produce viable offspring that can reproduce themselves..... Is this from personal experience or something you read?

Something my Biology Professor said years ago and Michael Moore does not count......

90 posted on 12/21/2004 9:59:32 AM PST by Red Badger (If the Red States are JESUSLAND, then the Blue States are SATANLAND......)
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To: PatrickHenry

I believe, though, that they have studied populations of feral dogs, and their diversity.

Mutts do, after a few generations, tend to lose the non-dominant breed specific traits, and all tend towards the characteristics that match coyote/wolf traits.

So I would be hard pressed to say that specific breeds is a tendency in evolution. Those breeds were selectively bred for the desired trait. Evolution tends to support a more general purpose mutt.


91 posted on 12/21/2004 9:59:32 AM PST by djf
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To: PatrickHenry

Thanks for the ping!


92 posted on 12/21/2004 10:01:44 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: MeanWestTexan
Mastiffs and Chijuaja(sp?) cannot naturally breed. Ergo, although they had a common ancestor just a few hundred years ago, they no are no longer the same species.

The only limitation here is physical, same as with some humans, Pygmies and Zulus, comes to mind, but no one would claim that they both are not the same species. A dog in heat is a dog in heat, regardless of size, shape or demeanor. The attempt would be made by them in spite of size difference. And if successful would produce viable reproductive offspring....

93 posted on 12/21/2004 10:03:37 AM PST by Red Badger (If the Red States are JESUSLAND, then the Blue States are SATANLAND......)
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To: Red Badger
Michael Moore does not count......

Heh, heh...

If I am not mistaken, it was Cokie Roberts who said recently that Michael Moore hurt the democratic ticket (paraphrasing, probably erroneously)..."just by his physical appearance."

94 posted on 12/21/2004 10:07:12 AM PST by weenie (Islam is as "dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog." -- Churchill)
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To: djf
general purpose mutt.

I have two GP Mutts and two pure breds, Retriever and Chihuahua. My GP mutts are smarter and easier to train. The pure bred Retriever just wants to play fetch, which is what he was created for. The Chihuahua just wants to be petted and lay around all day, for the same reason....

95 posted on 12/21/2004 10:07:56 AM PST by Red Badger (If the Red States are JESUSLAND, then the Blue States are SATANLAND......)
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To: Modernman

Not handy, but you can Google "humanzee" or various combinations of "hybrid" or "chimera" and come up with it pretty easily.

Also, nutcase biologist Newman (?) filed a patent on human-chimp cross in the US, I think.


96 posted on 12/21/2004 10:11:23 AM PST by MeanWestTexan
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To: MeanWestTexan
Thanks.

Interesting, but terribly disturbing.

97 posted on 12/21/2004 10:12:06 AM PST by Modernman (Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Mamzelle

> What's a Poofist?

A more accurate description of the fariy-tale of Creationism. God said "Ummm..." and all the critters of the world went "poof" and there they were. The fossils went "poof" and there they were, already made, and made old, showign clearly evidence of evolution (God apparently playign a little prank). The stars and galaxies went "poof" and there they were, billions of lightyears apart, but wioth the light already travelled between.

Yes, it's silly... but that's Poofism for you.


98 posted on 12/21/2004 10:12:55 AM PST by orionblamblam
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To: bondserv

> Darwinism really has taken on the mentality of the Left.

Somehow, you misspelled "Creationism" as "Darwinism."


99 posted on 12/21/2004 10:14:21 AM PST by orionblamblam
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To: Ditter
I had 2 Rhodesian, same parents but from different litters. Two of the best dogs I have ever had out of the dozens and dozens I have owned in my life. The male was magnificent, tall, husky but he had no ridge. Odie weighted 120 at his prime. Hazel was smaller but she was the brains of the outfit. Their ashes are on my bookshelf in urns. Hazel caught a new yardman in the back yard, put her mouth around the back of the mans thigh (lightly) and cut her eyes to me for further instruction. She would have taken him down if I had told her to. I have Jack Russel Terriers now, the kind you hate but they are wonderful. I will have a RR again someday, where did you get yours?

My girl ridgeback is a ridgeless as well, she was the sweetest dog of the litter, and without the ridge she was a good 700 dollars than the good dogs with ridges. There is a great breeder of champion ridgebacks 10 minutes away from me in OK, that is where I got her. If you are ever in the market for a ridgeback again, I would be glad to put you in touch with the breeder.

100 posted on 12/21/2004 10:15:51 AM PST by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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