Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Atheist's turn toward God was a 4-year process, friend says
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=19780 ^ | Dec 22, 2004 | David Roach

Posted on 12/26/2004 2:12:39 PM PST by protest1

Atheist's turn toward God was a 4-year process, friend says Dec 22, 2004 By David Roach

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)--Christian apologist Gary Habermas had just finished debating noted British atheist Antony Flew about the existence of God and the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The two friends rode an elevator together as they left the Californian university where the debate was held in January 2002. As Habermas exited the elevator, he extended his hand through the open door. "Tony," he said, "this is it for now. I enjoyed talking with you. When you become a Christian, I want to be the first one to know."

Flew laughed and responded, "I think you deserve that right."

The doors closed.

Most observers of the debate never thought that Flew would take steps toward Christianity. The former professor at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele and Reading universities in Britain had argued against the existence of God for more than 50 years, publishing such books as "Atheistic Humanism" and "Darwinian Evolution."

But in December 2004 the unexpected happened when Flew took a step toward Christianity, announcing that scientific evidence led him to a belief in God.

Habermas was among the first people he told.

Habermas, chairman of the department of philosophy and theology at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Va., had known that Flew was reconsidering his position since the fall of 2000 when Flew sent Habermas a letter in which the atheist acknowledged the strength of arguments for theism and Christianity.

"In September 2000, that's about the earliest indication that I had that he was changing," Habermas said in an interview with Baptist Press. "He wrote me a long letter, quite an incredible letter, where at several points he conceded the evidence for [theism and Christianity]."

When Habermas received the letter, he knew something was happening in Flew's life.

"I distinctly remember reading that letter when it came in the mail and thinking, 'Wow, something huge is happening with this guy,'" Habermas said.

Over a period of three years the two scholars corresponded about God. By January 2003 Flew began considering arguments from the "intelligent design" movement and was on the verge of belief in God.

Intelligent design is a theory arguing that some features of the natural world are best explained as the products of an intelligent cause rather than naturalistic evolution.

"He told me he was really rethinking theism and had corresponded with [naturalistic scientist Richard] Dawkins and was putting the ID arguments up against what Dawkins was saying and trying to compare the arguments," Habermas said. "And he was going back and forth as to whether he should be a theist or not."

By early 2004, Flew completed his transition to theism and indicated his change of mind to Habermas in a telephone conversation.

When media reports revealed Flew's belief in God in December 2004, some skeptics argued that the former atheist had changed his mind suddenly. But Habermas said such allegations are clearly incorrect in light of the four-year dialogue he had with Flew.

"The implications that he's just recently arrived at theism ... and that he hasn't had time to think through this aren't correct," Habermas said. "The first sign that I've seen of him changing goes back to the fall of 2000. So he's been thinking about these things for four years."

Flew currently holds a position known as deism -- the belief that God created the universe but is not actively involved in people's lives today, Habermas said. Because deism is traditionally a "tenuous" position, Flew could move closer to traditional Christianity in the days ahead, he said.

"Deism is a very tenuous position, and deistic belief is a short-lived movement in the history of philosophy over the last few centuries," Habermas said. "One reason deism is a troubled position is that it usually moves one way or the other."

Flew could revert back to atheism, Habermas noted. "Still, he has made a number of statements to me indicating that he is open, even to revelation," Habermas said.

"Three weeks ago I received a letter from him where he said that he was rereading my arguments for the resurrection and was very impressed with them,'" he said.

Despite his interest in the resurrection, however, Flew remains far from belief in Christianity, Habermas said.

"He's told me on many occasions that he was impressed with the arguments for the resurrection ... and he says it's the best miracle claim in the history of religions," Habermas recounted. "So he's impressed with them. Enough to believe? I don't think so, certainly not right now."

The dialogue with Flew highlights the need for Christians to engage non-believers in meaningful, caring friendships, Habermas said. Christian scholars in particular should bear in mind the need to build relationships with non-believing scholars, he said.

There are "benefits of carrying on a genuine friendship with people who do not agree with you on things," Habermas said. "I mean a genuine friendship where you're there for them in season and out of season. You're there for them when they're having bad days. You can tell them things that are on your mind. ... It's not connected to whether the people convert or not."

Christians should rejoice that Flew has adopted a belief in God but remember that mere belief in God falls short of the belief in Jesus Christ that Scripture requires for eternal life, Habermas said.

"His deism provides no relief for dying because he doesn't believe in life after death," he said. "It's not ... an 81-year-old who is embracing God so that he can come out on the good side when he dies. If you said that to him, he would say, 'I'm just going where the evidence leads.'"

An interview conducted by Habermas exploring Flew's conversion to belief in God will be published in the winter 2004 issue of Philosophia Christi, the journal of the Evangelical Philosophical Society.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: antonyflew; atheist; christianity; darwinism; god; intelligentdesign; theism
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-111 next last
"He told me he was really rethinking theism and had corresponded with [naturalistic scientist Richard] Dawkins and was putting the ID arguments up against what Dawkins was saying and trying to compare the arguments," Habermas said. "And he was going back and forth as to whether he should be a theist or not."

Very telling that the best arguments of leading atheist darwinist Richard Dawkins failed to keep Antony Flew an atheist

1 posted on 12/26/2004 2:12:40 PM PST by protest1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: protest1
"....When you become a Christian, I want to be the first one to know."

I remember leaving a friend with those words about 8 years ago now. Still waiting for and expecting that call....

2 posted on 12/26/2004 2:15:40 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: protest1
...some skeptics argued that the former atheist had changed his mind suddenly. But Habermas said such allegations are clearly incorrect in light of the four-year dialogue he had with Flew.

Flew is 81 years old, has been a practising atheist for 50 years, and 4 years ago he gets interested in religion.

Why doesn't anyone think that as Flew gets closer to the grave, and the realization of his mortality, he'll get even more religious?

3 posted on 12/26/2004 2:30:26 PM PST by Noachian (A Democrat, by definition, is a Socialist.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: anniegetyourgun

"I remember leaving a friend with those words about 8 years ago now. Still waiting for and expecting that call...."

Keep that friend in your prayers . . . while there is life, there is hope.

Last week we buried a cousin who renounced God and the Church. While he seemed to have mellowed in recent years, and certainly was aware of his limited mortality due to a bad heart -- he did not come back to church, and had a short service at the funeral home. Maybe he was close to God in some way . . . we can't judge. But it makes me sick inside . . . I feel, if he had submitted himself to God and God's will, wouldn't he have returned to church??

With him, I think it was merely the refusal to submit himself to a higher authority: the Church, even God himself . . . Sounds familiar in the fall of Lucifer . . . guess it can still happen.

I will get a Mass said for him -- a kind of sweet revenge ;). If he still felt the way at death that he did before, he will roll over in his grave at the idea of it, but he can't stop me from doing it!




4 posted on 12/26/2004 2:37:11 PM PST by AMDG&BVMH
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: TexasGreg; jb6

Ping


5 posted on 12/26/2004 2:41:34 PM PST by GarySpFc (Sneakypete, De Oppresso Liber)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Noachian
Why doesn't anyone think that as Flew gets closer to the grave, and the realization of his mortality, he'll get even more religious?

Because in the articles in which Flew described his turn towards Deism, he announced that he'd come to the conclusion that he believed in an absent, uncaring God, and that he thought the idea of an afterlife was nonsense.

6 posted on 12/26/2004 2:56:30 PM PST by SedVictaCatoni (<><)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: protest1

I've always thought that deism makes much more sense than atheism. It seems very hard to deny the main tenets of intelligent design. However, with all of the evil in the world and the fact that it takes faith to believe in miracles that you don't personally witness, it can seem hard to believe in an involved caring God. How to split the difference? Either bcome an agnostic (I don't see how a knowledge-seeker could ever be satisfied with this), or a deist.


7 posted on 12/26/2004 3:05:36 PM PST by DameAutour ("The dumber people think you are, the more surprised they're going to be when you kill them.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: protest1

Habermas was a contributor to a superb book called "The Case For Christ." It's an investigation into the reality of Jesus from a secular point of view. The atheist author Lee Strobel becomes a believer while doing the research for the book. Fascinating! There's one area of analysis I don't agree with but recommend the book for every Christian's library. p_w...Seeds of Israel


8 posted on 12/26/2004 3:06:44 PM PST by patriot_wes
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: protest1

As a former atheist, I can tell you that a deist/agnostic is a cowardly atheist.

Or a searching pre-Christian.


9 posted on 12/26/2004 3:08:45 PM PST by AppyPappy (If You're Not A Part Of The Solution, There's Good Money To Be Made In Prolonging The Problem.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: GarySpFc

I spent 20 years in hospital nursing, 10 of it in ICU.

I have been the only human witness to many deaths. Many others died with family or friends present.

The most unusual death I ever witnessed was an atheist. He was in ICU on the ventilator suffering from liver failure.

Liver failure is not a good way to go. He was in a coma, bleeding from the eyes, nose, lungs, in his urine...

He hadn't even blinked voluntarily in several days. When his heart flipped into a lethal rhythm, He sat up, opened his eyes and stared.

It is the one and only time I saw anybody sit up to die. It may have only been an oddity but I still can't explain it and haven't talked to any one that could.


10 posted on 12/26/2004 3:09:45 PM PST by TASMANIANRED (Free the Fallujah one)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: protest1

You religious people crack me up. You make such a big deal about one atheist seeing the light but it's just the beginning phases of senility.


11 posted on 12/26/2004 3:32:53 PM PST by bannedfromdu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Noachian
Why doesn't anyone think that as Flew gets closer to the grave, and the realization of his mortality, he'll get even more religious?

I believe historically you'll find the older a person gets, the less likely he is to change religious views.

Many people become Christians as children and young people. Much fewer over 65 make the transition from nonbeliever to believer. Why? Because you have to make a radical re-commitment to your entire world-view and admit you've been wrong all along.

As people get older, they are more set in their thinking and less willing to do that despite the fact of their impending mortality. That would admit they have believed a lie or ignored the truth all their lives. Oh, many may think they are going to Heaven, but they live on false hopes and wishes, nothing else. They have no assurances, except things superficial like, "I've always been 'good'" or "God would never be so cruel as to send me to hell", or "we're all God's children"! These shallow views stem from unBiblical teachings and popular culture, and are prevalent even among a lot of liberal churches as well as agnostics.

They are hopes and a form of "faith". Biblically false ones.

12 posted on 12/26/2004 3:35:08 PM PST by Gritty ("The notion 'Muslim world', is more acceptable to Progressives than 'The Christian World'-Mark Steyn)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: DameAutour
"deism -- the belief that God created the universe but is not actively involved in people's lives today."


______________________________________


DameAutour wrote:

I've always thought that deism makes much more sense than atheism. --

-- However, with all of the evil in the world and the fact that it takes faith to believe in miracles that you don't personally witness, it can seem hard to believe in an involved caring God.
How to split the difference?
Either become an agnostic (I don't see how a knowledge-seeker could ever be satisfied with this), or a deist.






Acknowledgment that you can't know it all is the beginning of true knowledge-seeking.
There is no real distinction between agnosticism & deism.

Both agree that what we can call 'God' created the universe and is not actively involved in people's lives today.
13 posted on 12/26/2004 3:37:48 PM PST by jonestown ( Tolerance for intolerance is not tolerance at all. Jonestown, TX)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: bannedfromdu

"You religious people crack me up. You make such a big deal about one atheist seeing the light but it's just the beginning phases of senility. "

Wait a minute here you yourself claim that you "crack me up" and you have the nerve to point a finger and claim senility of another????


14 posted on 12/26/2004 3:40:57 PM PST by Just mythoughts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: TASMANIANRED; AppyPappy
a deist/agnostic is a cowardly atheist.

9 AppyPappy






The most unusual death I ever witnessed was an atheist.

He was in ICU on the ventilator suffering from liver failure. Liver failure is not a good way to go. He was in a coma, bleeding from the eyes, nose, lungs, in his urine... He hadn't even blinked voluntarily in several days.
When his heart flipped into a lethal rhythm, He sat up, opened his eyes and stared.

It is the one and only time I saw anybody sit up to die.

It may have only been an oddity but I still can't explain it and haven't talked to any one that could.
10 TASMANIANRED






Sounds like a brave man that arose to the occasion.
15 posted on 12/26/2004 3:48:37 PM PST by jonestown ( Tolerance for intolerance is not tolerance at all. Jonestown, TX)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: bannedfromdu
You religious people crack me up. You make such a big deal about one atheist seeing the light but it's just the beginning phases of senility.

Anthony Flew is not your run of the mill atheist. You on the other hand are a run of the mill secularist. See the difference? Nobody would care if you managed to find the light switch, Flew finding it is news.

16 posted on 12/26/2004 3:52:12 PM PST by jwalsh07
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: bannedfromdu
Wait a minute here you yourself claim that you "crack me up" and you have the nerve to point a finger and claim senility of another????

Yeah, that made sense.

I fail to see the importance of any one person becoming Christian, or atheist, or Hindu, or whatever. I feel like it's watching homos brand some famous historical figure 'gay.' I mean, if it's a personal choice, or even if it's inborn, how can it possibly make any difference to anyone if Michelangelo smoked the pole?

Just so with Christianity. If it's between you and your God what your religious beliefs are, why the heck would finding out an atheist converted make someone more likely to become Christian? They are YOUR beliefs. It's not like having celebrity endorsers makes you more likely to believe something--but if hearing Shaq or Madonna are Christian makes you love Jesus, you're not all that deeply religious, are you?

Just dumb. Dumb dumb dumb.

17 posted on 12/26/2004 3:58:53 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: AMDG&BVMH; anniegetyourgun
Don't give up hope or stop praying for your friend.

My ex-husband has been a lifelong atheist. He was the most immovable sort of atheist: a professor, very worldly and sophisticated, convinced he knew everything, consumed with pride and narcissism. His narcissism eventually led him into crime and depravity, because he was convinced that there was no such thing as God or Satan, right or wrong, just "what he liked" and "what he didn't like." He thought he was above the laws that apply to ordinary, stupid people, and was full of contempt for churches and Christians. My growing faith was one of the things that parted us. We were divorced more than seven years ago.

About two years ago our little son, then eight, decided that he wanted to be baptized, and in his innocence wanted his daddy to see the fine service our church holds. So my ex came to church, rather resentfully, expecting to see the pastor a charlatan and the snakes big and fat. Instead, he admitted that the pastor appeared to be a very literate and very sincere man. Subsequently we began having a security issue--I had a stalker who was coming to church and following me around--and my ex decided that he had to come to church to serve as bodyguard to me and my kids. So for the next several months he had to sit and listen to the pastor every Sunday for an hour and a half.

He subsequently went away to pay for his crimes. When he returned, five months later, he was right back to church. One sees him praying now, taking communion, weeping as the pastor gently preaches a message that hits home, or sometimes going up to to the altar for special prayer. It won't be long now. It's taken 64 years, but the nasty atheist has turned into an understanding and supportive daddy who is doing his best to help his kids and is taking them to church every Sunday. He is humble now, the first to admit that people who have little formal education can be very well-educated indeed. Praise God!--prayer works.

18 posted on 12/26/2004 4:09:39 PM PST by Capriole (the Luddite hypocritically clicking away on her computer)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Capriole

I have seen the worst (and those who thought they were the best) come to the LORD, Cap. Thanks for your story to add to so many. My list of those I am praying for (and waiting on) is long.....but He is faithful.


19 posted on 12/26/2004 4:17:45 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Capriole

"He is humble now"

That is a key; and it is not taught now-a-days!

Children do make a difference. I have raised my daughter with the faith, and sent her to a good school. Her father is "too busy." BUT she had him in tears one time (she told me) promising to go to church every Sunday. He knows he has to be a good example for her, and that sends him to church more often than he would otherwise be inclined: "too busy." AND he would not listen to me: it would only harden him. I flatly told him: I am not your mother, it is not my responsibility to nag you to go to church. It is YOUR responsibility . . . So the kids definitely have an edge!

Do hope your ex comes around finally. As you said, pride and narcissism allow a person to rationalize away God -- they make themselves into a god: i.e. arbiter of what they shall and shall not do. They can't accept a God telling them what is right or wrong. Remind him that the 10 Commandements are not rules to stifle us, but "operating instructions" for human nature. If we violate them, we only hurt ourselves and others, because that is the way we are made.

Thanks for sharing your story.


20 posted on 12/26/2004 4:25:29 PM PST by AMDG&BVMH
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: LibertarianInExile

Anthony Flew has been led to theism by science. That is the the significance of one mans life long advocacy for atheism morphing into theism. He "followed the science" where it led him.


21 posted on 12/26/2004 4:31:18 PM PST by jwalsh07
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: anniegetyourgun

Sure would be a good Christmas present, eh?


22 posted on 12/26/2004 4:34:48 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: bannedfromdu

Yeah...


Ain't it GREAT?!?!


23 posted on 12/26/2004 4:38:16 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: bannedfromdu
"The fool has said in his heart there is no God." - God

The Hebrew word for fool in this scripture from the OT implies a form of insanity. Ergo, those who agree with God are more sane.

24 posted on 12/26/2004 4:58:50 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Elsie

The best.


25 posted on 12/26/2004 4:59:08 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: protest1
I grew up as a Jehovah's Witness. The Devil himself couldn't have designed a religion with more power to turn a person away from God. It's been a long crawl back from atheism for me. God bless anyone who can do it. It isn't easy.
26 posted on 12/26/2004 5:02:11 PM PST by Hardastarboard
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: VadeRetro

I know that "appeal to authority" is used as an excuse not to listen to expert testimony at times- and at times rightly so. Still, is this not evidence that there must be SOMETHING to the intelligent design arguments? Flew is perhaps the world's best known debating athiest. I've a book of his debate with Warren on my shelf. He gave Dawkins a chance to rip the ID arguments and Dawk could not close the deal.


27 posted on 12/26/2004 5:05:15 PM PST by Ahban
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Ahban
I know that "appeal to authority" is used as an excuse not to listen to expert testimony at times- and at times rightly so.

Spetner is not a biologist or geneticist. Biologists and geneticists find his models laughably inappropriate, his casual attitude to what is known of the relationships between genes appalling.

Still, is this not evidence that there must be SOMETHING to the intelligent design arguments?

No. Come back when you have something that survives serious scrutiny.

Flew is perhaps the world's best known debating athiest.

And he still accepts evolution. Now he's not an atheist. Neither is Junior. Neither am I, exactly, although you guys are pushing me closer every day.

28 posted on 12/26/2004 5:11:08 PM PST by VadeRetro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Ahban
Don't bother to ask me who Spetner is. You caught be going hot and heavy on another thread (appeal to authority was part of it) and I thought you were chiming in THERE.

Now I have to look and see what appeal to authority you were even talking about.

29 posted on 12/26/2004 5:12:50 PM PST by VadeRetro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Ahban
OK, got it.

Flew currently holds a position known as deism -- the belief that God created the universe but is not actively involved in people's lives today, Habermas said. Because deism is traditionally a "tenuous" position, Flew could move closer to traditional Christianity in the days ahead, he said.
As an official agnostic, I say nobody's an authority in this area. You can appeal to Flew all you want.
30 posted on 12/26/2004 5:15:02 PM PST by VadeRetro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: jwalsh07; LibertarianInExile
Anthony Flew has been led to theism by science.

Flew was not a scientist. He may have had some fanciful interpretion of science -- misinterpretation, more likely. But the scientific method per se eschews faith as a valid means of cognition, i.e. recognising reality. I find it interesting (and revealing) that Flew AFAIK has not addressed the issue of faith in his new world-view.

Intelligeant Design proponents puzzle me. Thousands of species have gone extinct over the millennia. Entire galaxies have collided destructively. There are continually earthquakes and other natural calamities. The planet Earth evidently was designed not too intelligently. Not to mention homo sapiens with all his defects and vestigial organs.

31 posted on 12/26/2004 5:39:28 PM PST by Nicholas Conradin (If you are not disquieted by "One nation under God," try "One nation under Allah.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: protest1

Interesting read...I had Gary Habermas as a professor for a few classes in college (at Liberty). He was always interesting; I learned a lot in those classes.


32 posted on 12/26/2004 5:45:00 PM PST by xjcsa (Everything matters if anything matters at all...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Nicholas Conradin
Flew was not a scientist.

Never said he was. He's a philosopher with a keen interest in science, specifically the origin of life.

You certainly don't mean to say that only scientists can be led somewhere through science, do you?

I believe in creation but if you were able to create matter, time and space ex nihilo in the lab, I'd have to seriously reconsider my beliefs.

33 posted on 12/26/2004 5:46:32 PM PST by jwalsh07
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: protest1
"I mean a genuine friendship where you're there for them in season and out of season. You're there for them when they're having bad days. You can tell them things that are on your mind. ... It's not connected to whether the people convert or not."

That's what Jesus did, and that is Jesus in us doing the same.

Praying for Flew to embrace the Resurrection, and "fly" into the arms of Jesus.

34 posted on 12/26/2004 6:01:45 PM PST by mombonn ( íViva Bush/Cheney! Dukakis and Kerry are the matching bookends of the Bush era.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: VadeRetro
....although you guys are pushing me closer every day.

Tie a knot and hang on!

Surely this motley bunch of christians that don't agree with you and the world view of Evolution, cannot shake your faith.....

35 posted on 12/26/2004 6:10:53 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: VadeRetro
As an official agnostic, I say nobody's an authority in this area.

There is some kind of perverse logic at work here.

36 posted on 12/26/2004 6:12:15 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: jwalsh07

Ah, so this is about science proving theism. Gotcha. What exactly was this science Flew found indicated the existence of God?


37 posted on 12/26/2004 6:12:45 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: bannedfromdu

Banned --

We DO make a big deal of it; considering when a person here realizes, through God's guidance and grace, his need for salvation... and accepts Christ -- all the angels in Heaven rejoice! So -- why shouldn't we, who are here now, rejoice when someone begins to see the light?

I would be just as happy if YOU were to see your need for Christ. If you'd like, I'd be happy to speak with you about Him.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!
Neal


38 posted on 12/26/2004 6:43:50 PM PST by HossB86
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: Elsie
There is some kind of perverse logic at work here.

Nobody's a REAL agnostic unless he thinks NOBODY knows the answers.

39 posted on 12/26/2004 6:58:35 PM PST by VadeRetro
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: TASMANIANRED
When his heart flipped into a lethal rhythm, He sat up, opened his eyes and stared.

How odd and almost haunting that must've been to witness.

Maybe the lethal heart rhythm sent a last adrenoline like fight or flight reflex through his body as it's last gasp at life.

How did you know he was an athiest? Did he tell you this during his last days?

40 posted on 12/26/2004 6:59:39 PM PST by SunnyUsa
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: SunnyUsa

I knew he was an atheist from his kids. He was in ICU long enough for me to get to know his family.


41 posted on 12/26/2004 7:17:30 PM PST by TASMANIANRED (Free the Fallujah one)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: TASMANIANRED
"... He sat up, opened his eyes and stared."

Can't substantiate, but remember hearing that Stalin did that. Sat up, cursed looking upward, then laid back and died.

42 posted on 12/26/2004 7:23:44 PM PST by oprahstheantichrist
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: DameAutour
It seems very hard to deny the main tenets of intelligent design.

I would seriously consider the intelligent design concept if it also had a hypothesis for the origin of the designer himself.

it takes faith to believe in miracles that you don't personally witness

Precisely. I am enormously sympathetic toward Christians and Christianity. Particularly in their opposition to the modern homogenizing State. However, from a personal point of view, I just can not accept the concept of the supernatural in any form whatever.

43 posted on 12/26/2004 7:45:16 PM PST by Uncle Fud
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: protest1

bttt


44 posted on 12/26/2004 7:56:20 PM PST by PowerPro (DOUBLE W - He's STILL the one. Now don't that feel GOOD????)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: LibertarianInExile
Ah, so this is about science proving theism.

Nobody said that but you. You built the strawdog, you knock it down.

Gotcha. What exactly was this science Flew found indicated the existence of God?

Why don't you read the article? Or better yet Google Flew and Theism and find out why he thinks the science leads him to "believe" in a Creator?

Can you handle all that without overdosing on condescension and hubris?

45 posted on 12/26/2004 8:05:15 PM PST by jwalsh07
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: jwalsh07

> Anthony Flew has been led to theism by science.

Actually, the article said that he has been led to theism by Creationism, which is to science what astrology is to astronomy.


46 posted on 12/26/2004 9:19:30 PM PST by orionblamblam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: anniegetyourgun

> Ergo, those who agree with God are more sane.

Stalin would be proud.


47 posted on 12/26/2004 9:20:46 PM PST by orionblamblam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: orionblamblam
"But in December 2004 the unexpected happened when Flew took a step toward Christianity, announcing that scientific evidence led him to a belief in God."

At least you're consistent, consistently wrong.

48 posted on 12/26/2004 9:21:51 PM PST by jwalsh07
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: jwalsh07

You're knocking a quote from the article?

You continue to behave oddly.


49 posted on 12/26/2004 9:28:43 PM PST by orionblamblam
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: jwalsh07

Here's what YOU said:

Anthony Flew has been led to theism by science. That is the the significance of one mans life long advocacy for atheism morphing into theism. He "followed the science" where it led him.

Here was my response:

Ah, so this is about science proving theism. Gotcha. What exactly was this science Flew found indicated the existence of God?

Did I misconstrue the point of your post above, where you said Flew was led to theism by science and followed the science? What was your intended message, exactly, if it was not that? I said "Gotcha," because I didn't know why you were so stuck on this Flew person being a theist, then I THOUGHT you'd explained it. However, now I'm not sure I understand the whoop-de-do, since your point evidently ISN'T that science proves theism.

I WILL read the article. Hopefully the author of THAT writing will be less insulting than you in explaining Flew's reasoning and what HE gets out of it.


50 posted on 12/26/2004 9:34:57 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-100101-111 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson