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Atheist's turn toward God was a 4-year process, friend says
http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=19780 ^ | Dec 22, 2004 | David Roach

Posted on 12/26/2004 2:12:39 PM PST by protest1

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To: protest1

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51 posted on 12/26/2004 9:36:40 PM PST by krunkygirl
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To: LibertarianInExile
I fail to see the importance of any one person becoming Christian, or atheist, or Hindu, or whatever.

Jesus said, "I tell you that in the same way there is more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent."

Christians apparently are enjoined to share this attitude.

52 posted on 12/26/2004 9:37:28 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: protest1

"'If you said that to him, he would say, "I'm just going where the evidence leads."'"

Christ passes all understanding. I don't think you become a Christian by examining evidence.


53 posted on 12/26/2004 9:38:31 PM PST by BackInBlack ("The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice.")
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To: LibertarianInExile
Hopefully the author of THAT writing will be less insulting than you in explaining Flew's reasoning and what HE gets out of it.

Hope springs eternal.

BTW, repeating what we wrote simply clarifies that you jumped the gun. "Anthony Flew has been led to theism by science" is not analagous to "science proving theism".

54 posted on 12/26/2004 9:42:10 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Nicholas Conradin
Intelligeant Design proponents puzzle me.

Your lack of a spell checker puzzles me.

If you are going to use scientific methodology, do so.

Formulate explicit predictions and do what you can to test them under controlled conditions.

55 posted on 12/26/2004 9:42:17 PM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: orionblamblam
You continue to behave oddly.

You continue to simply disregard the facts. I gave you a quote from the article. Flews position is that his take on the science leads him to "believe" in a deistic God.

I don't really know why you're arguing that point, it is Flew's opinion. That you have a different one has no bearing on the matter.

56 posted on 12/26/2004 9:44:41 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: orionblamblam
FLEW: I think that the most impressive arguments for God’s existence are those that are supported by recent scientific discoveries. I’ve never been much impressed by the kalam cosmological argument, and I don’t think it has gotten any stronger recently. However, I think the argument to Intelligent Design is enormously stronger than it was when I first met it.

This direct quote from Antony Flew should clear things up.

57 posted on 12/26/2004 9:56:24 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: bannedfromdu
You make such a big deal about one atheist seeing the light but it's just the beginning phases of senility.

Well, he's not seen the light quite yet, but he is headed in the right direction.

Luk 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.

58 posted on 12/26/2004 9:56:26 PM PST by AndrewC (Merry Christmas)
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To: jwalsh07

Feel free to answer my questions in your next post.

By the way, the interview is here:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:AM1_n_wjYjgJ:www.biola.edu/antonyflew/flew-interview.pdf+flew+atheist+theism&hl=en

It was good reading, better at explaining Flew's thought process than this prefatory article.


59 posted on 12/26/2004 9:57:21 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: jwalsh07

> Flews position is that his take on the science leads him to "believe" in a deistic God.

This is what the article says: "By January 2003 Flew began considering arguments from the "intelligent design" movement and was on the verge of belief in God."

Since Creationism is manifestly NOT science (feel free to produce the requisite testable aspects of it), then by definition Flew is not being led to God via science. He may in fact be led to God by what he has been bamboozled into *thinking* is science, of course. Many people falsely belive that Creationism is scientific, just as many people belive that healing crystals, pyramid power and Ascended Masters from Atlantis are science-based. But believing does not make something so.


60 posted on 12/26/2004 9:58:26 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: jwalsh07

> This direct quote from Antony Flew should clear things up.

It does indeed. It points out that it is faith, not science, that is leading this man to God.


61 posted on 12/26/2004 10:01:28 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: LibertarianInExile
Feel free to answer my questions in your next post.

Which questions?

I read the Flew interview a while back but thanks for the link. Curious enough he is impressed with Schroeders work. Who'da thunk it?

62 posted on 12/26/2004 10:01:35 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: orionblamblam

Go argue the point with Flew. I'm unimpressed with the standard balogna. I prefer roast beef.


63 posted on 12/26/2004 10:02:36 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07

Your post is illucid.


64 posted on 12/26/2004 10:03:19 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: orionblamblam

Only to a blind man.


65 posted on 12/26/2004 10:04:02 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: AndrewC

Merry Christmas Andrew.


66 posted on 12/26/2004 10:11:03 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: TASMANIANRED; GarySpFc
TASMANIANRED WROTE: "The most unusual death I ever witnessed was an atheist. He was in ICU on the ventilator suffering from liver failure."

TASMANIANRED ADDED: "Liver failure is not a good way to go. He was in a coma, bleeding from the eyes, nose, lungs, in his urine..."

TASMANIANRED ADDED: "He hadn't even blinked voluntarily in several days. When his heart flipped into a lethal rhythm, He sat up, opened his eyes and stared. "

TASMANIANRED ADDED: "It is the one and only time I saw anybody sit up to die. It may have only been an oddity but I still can't explain it and haven't talked to any one that could."

Two of the sweetest Christian women I have ever known, who used to take care of me when my parents were out of town, died a few years ago. They were elderly, childless sisters, 7 years apart in age.

The younger sister suddenly died at home first and was found by the older sister, laying back across the bed with her feet on the floor and her arms outstretched. She looked as if she had been sitting on the bed, with her arms outstretched, then fell backwards as she died.

The older sister died in a hospital and, as I understand, had been "out of it" and not moving or opening her eyes for several days. Immediately before she died, she suddenly sat up in bed, opened her eyes, and with her arms outstretched up and out in front of her, said "I love you!" as if she was seeing the LORD, then fell back and died.

I always looked at the event as a positive indication that she DID see the LORD. It made me think that a much as the LORD is love and wants us to love each other, that maybe He gives people that literal last second of life to decide to believe in Him and go with Him as you die.

67 posted on 12/26/2004 10:14:49 PM PST by Concerned (RATS can't win unless they LIE, CHEAT and/or STEAL!!!)
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To: grey_whiskers

That said, I doubt that celebration is the reason that people bring this up here. I stand by the point of MY post, which is that faith needs no celebrity endorsement, and any posting to that effect is converting folks who are not going to be long with one religion, anyway.

"Look, Jessica Simpson's Christian! I think I'll start going to prayer meetings again!"

I just don't see it. If I want to welcome Flew to the flock, I'll buy him a frosty one. Trumpeting it to the secular world reeks of cola wars.


68 posted on 12/26/2004 10:23:41 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: jwalsh07

The questions:

Did I misconstrue the point of your post above, where you said Flew was led to theism by science and followed the science? What was your intended message, exactly, if it was not that? I said "Gotcha," because I didn't know why you were so stuck on this Flew person being a theist, then I THOUGHT you'd explained it. However, now I'm not sure I understand the whoop-de-do, since your point evidently ISN'T that science proves theism.

Schroeder is interesting but I am not sure a literalist view of the Bible can be reconciled with his perception of the 6 days of Creation.


69 posted on 12/26/2004 10:39:50 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: jwalsh07
Merry Christmas to you too.

Have a blessed new year.

FLEW: Absolutely. It seems to me that Richard Dawkins constantly overlooks the fact that Darwin himself, in the fourteenth chapter of The Origin of Species, pointed out that his whole argument began with a being which already possessed reproductive powers. This is the creature the evolution of which a truly comprehensive theory of evolution must give some account. Darwin himself was well aware that he had not produced such an account. It now seems to me that the findings of more than fifty years of DNA research have provided materials for a new and enormously powerful argument to design.

Looks like an opinion using "science"(DNA research) as an argument to a conclusion of design which ultimately leads to a designer. Some might say space aliens others might say God.

70 posted on 12/26/2004 10:48:43 PM PST by AndrewC (Merry Christmas)
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To: LibertarianInExile
Sorry if this is a double post; it's way past my bedtime.

"Look, Jessica Simpson's Christian! I think I'll start going to prayer meetings again!"

Leave Bill Clinton's religion out of this!

Trumpeting it to the secular world reeks of cola wars.

Is this because you are holding Christendom to a higher standard?

Do you hold secularists to the same standard, when they trumpet a list of intellectuals and/or celebrities who markedly do not endorse Christ, in order to reject Christianity out of hand?

Consider the quotes of St. Paul, about "...consider bretheren, how you were called--not many wise, not many successful" (my paraphrase), or about "becoming all things to all men, that I may by all means save some."

Just food for thought, no flames intended.

Cheers!

71 posted on 12/27/2004 12:05:59 AM PST by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: LibertarianInExile

it's interesting and important from a society or cultural point of view. Not a personal one.

There is a battle going on between science and religion in many spheres.


72 posted on 12/27/2004 1:36:50 AM PST by D-fendr
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To: LibertarianInExile

You said -- "I fail to see the importance of any one person becoming Christian, or atheist, or Hindu, or whatever."

Well, for one thing, Jesus made the claim of being the only one who "saves" (as the Messiah of Israel and of the whole human race, from beginning to end) -- a totally exclusive claim. There is no room for other "ways" according to Jesus.

In John 14:6 --

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

This is what Jesus says, it's what God says, it's what the Bible says, it's what the Apostles and leaders of the Jerusalem Church said (i.e., the first church), and it's what current-day Christians say.

There is no room in God's way of offering salvation to the world -- of any other way or method. God doesn't allow it; Jesus makes it perfectly clear there is no other way except through Him.

You're on the wrong side of Jesus on this one.

Regards,
Star Traveler


73 posted on 12/27/2004 3:28:34 AM PST by Star Traveler
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To: LibertarianInExile

You said -- "Trumpeting it to the secular world reeks of cola wars."

One no less than Jesus said the following --

Matthew 28:18-20

18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.


And talking about others who have moved in their position from atheism to the direction of Christianity (although not there yet), is part of that very process that Jesus talks about above.

To do less is simply to disobey Jesus Christ.

Regards,
Star Traveler


74 posted on 12/27/2004 3:37:34 AM PST by Star Traveler
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To: orionblamblam

I'll go with God's Word over Stalin's words anyday.....


75 posted on 12/27/2004 3:42:11 AM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: LibertarianInExile
"I fail to see the importance of any one person becoming Christian, or atheist, or Hindu, or whatever."

You too are only one person.

76 posted on 12/27/2004 3:46:41 AM PST by azhenfud ("He who is always looking up seldom finds others' lost change...")
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To: VadeRetro

AHhhhhhhh....


I see!


77 posted on 12/27/2004 5:06:31 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: anniegetyourgun

That's nice. But when people start declaring that anyone who does not toe a party line is by definition insane... it's time to worry.


78 posted on 12/27/2004 5:30:31 AM PST by orionblamblam
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To: Concerned

Concerned, Thank you for sharing that touching story with me.


79 posted on 12/27/2004 8:54:38 AM PST by TASMANIANRED (Free the Fallujah one)
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To: grey_whiskers
Your lack of a spell checker puzzles me.

Wow, you got me there. Just can't get past a sharp guy like you.

Rumours of my infallibility are greatly exaggerated.

As it happens, I am in fact infallible. In order to prevent others (I hope that you recognize yourself therein) from feeling hopelessly inferior, I will sometimes deliberately make mistakes. Feeling better now?

If you are going to use scientific methodology, do so.

I do not understand what you are suggesting. IMHO the proposition "God exists" (or "An Intelligent Designer exists") cannot be tested using a scientific method, though it is accessible through reason and logic. Please do not challenge me to do so. I find futile and tiresome the quest for gods, Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy or an Invisible Pink Unicorn.

FWIW I do believe there is sufficient historical evidence to emonstrate that Jesus existed as a human person.

80 posted on 12/27/2004 8:57:10 AM PST by Nicholas Conradin (If you are not disquieted by "One nation under God," try "One nation under Allah.")
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To: Nicholas Conradin; grey_whiskers
FWIW I do believe there is sufficient historical evidence to emonstrate that Jesus existed as a human person.

Another attempt at humility?

Anything can be "tested" using a scientific method. Darwinian theory "proves" that.

81 posted on 12/27/2004 10:40:17 AM PST by AndrewC (Merry Christmas)
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To: orionblamblam; anniegetyourgun
That's nice. But when people start declaring that anyone who does not toe a party line is by definition insane...

Your Darwinian habit of constructing straw men is showing again. The statement was "more sane" not "insane", a comparative is not an "absolute".

82 posted on 12/27/2004 10:46:55 AM PST by AndrewC (Merry Christmas)
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To: TASMANIANRED

"I spent 20 years in hospital nursing, 10 of it in ICU. "

I had a friend who was a nurse administrator in the oncology ward. She definitely believes in a higher power. She witnessed or was privy to a number of episodes that could not be explained any other way.

In one case, a nurse friend was summoned by a panel light to an empty room, a room occupied a few hours before by a middle aged woman who had died a very painful cancer death. When the nurse got there, she heard a voice thanking her for her kindness.


83 posted on 12/27/2004 12:48:07 PM PST by oldcomputerguy
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To: Concerned
" Immediately before she died, she suddenly sat up in bed, opened her eyes,"

My uncle died of leukemia and was surrounded by my mother and other brothers who had gathered because he was near death. He had been in a coma when, after all were assembled, he opened his eyes, scanned around the room and passed away.

A coworker of my wife's, had an aortic aneurysm burst at work. He collapsed into a chair and was comatose. It took, as I recall, nearly 10 minutes for the ambulance to arrive. As he was being lifted into the ambulance, he opened his eyes and waved to his coworkers. He was DOA at the hospital.

My mother in law died at home after a long fight with bone cancer. My brother in law was sleeping there when he woke to the sound of footsteps, only no one was walking around. My mother in law had died. When my father in law and brother in law went outside that May morning at 1:AM, all the birds were singing.

84 posted on 12/27/2004 1:07:52 PM PST by oldcomputerguy
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To: grey_whiskers

Is this because you are holding Christendom to a higher standard?

---No, I think I made that point pretty clearly when I said "I fail to see the importance of any one person becoming Christian, or atheist, or Hindu, or whatever." There should really be no impact, I think, on your personal choice based on OTHERS' personal choices. I don't care if Richard Gere is interested in Buddhism or tree-worshipping.

Do you hold secularists to the same standard, when they trumpet a list of intellectuals and/or celebrities who markedly do not endorse Christ, in order to reject Christianity out of hand?

---Yes.

Consider the quotes of St. Paul, about "...consider bretheren, how you were called--not many wise, not many successful" (my paraphrase), or about "becoming all things to all men, that I may by all means save some."

---I understand your point, but I feel like there is a difference in trying to convince people of the righteousness of your cause, and trying to sell them something. If we package God, is the message the same? I don't think it is at all. "Billy Bob Thornton says, Buy Jesus! On sale EVERYWHERE!" And that same passage was used to convert Christianity to include worship of voodoo gods and Native nature worship.

I don't know that Christianity or the people who practice these mutated versions of Christianity are better for it.


85 posted on 12/27/2004 3:02:02 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: D-fendr

Agreed. But from the perspective of proselytizing, I don't see it being a good sales tool, and worse, I don't believe that Jesus being SOLD to people works to make them Christian at all.


86 posted on 12/27/2004 3:04:50 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: Star Traveler

I don't see how I'm on the wrong side. I never said otherwise.


87 posted on 12/27/2004 3:06:08 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: Star Traveler

Going forth and making disciples does NOT mean waving the converted around like a bloody shirt. To me, it means YOU living a Christian life and YOU being an example to others, and if they are interested, telling them about YOUR faith.

I may not be much of a Christian, but I know what makes a difference in people's hearts, and it's not Pax TV or CBN or other flashy marketing. It's seeing others from similar walks of life who live as Christians, and appreciating their perspective on a one-to-one basis. I don't believe that talking about others' beliefs in an effort to promote your own is a successful way to produce Christians. I would hazard a guess that anti-Catholic screeds and overplaying the 'evil atheist' card have driven more people from the flock than they have brought in.


88 posted on 12/27/2004 3:12:44 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: azhenfud

Maybe the best riposte I've received. But on the other hand, I wasn't addressing this to the individual importance of PEOPLE, but to their value as proselytizing tools.


89 posted on 12/27/2004 3:15:02 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: Noachian
You might be write, his age may be playing some part in his reconsideration. He isn't the only one. There are many.

If interested, read the book, More Than a Carpenter, by Josh McDowell. Like Flew, he was an atheist, trying to prove that God didn't exist and Jesus was definitely not the Son of God or a Saviour. His research led him to believe otherwise.

90 posted on 12/27/2004 3:18:56 PM PST by WestPoint90
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To: LibertarianInExile
Did I misconstrue the point of your post above, where you said Flew was led to theism by science and followed the science?

Evidently so, you changed the words to suit yourself. I've already explained that what I wrote and what you wrote are not synonomous. No reason to rehash old ground. See above if you need to review.

What was your intended message, exactly, if it was not that?

It was exactly what I said. Flew claims that his 50 year study of the science has led him to believe in a deistic Creator. There's no argument there, its Flew's own words.

I said "Gotcha," because I didn't know why you were so stuck on this Flew person being a theist, then I THOUGHT you'd explained it.

This is garbage. Why don't you support the contention that I am "stuck on this Flew person being a theist." You need to read what I write and quit editorializing or fantasizing, one or the other.

However, now I'm not sure I understand the whoop-de-do, since your point evidently ISN'T that science proves theism.

Do you think it is possible that science can prove theism?

Schroeder is interesting but I am not sure a literalist view of the Bible can be reconciled with his perception of the 6 days of Creation.

Then you should probably read Schroeder.

91 posted on 12/27/2004 4:03:05 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07

This is garbage. Why don't you support the contention that I am "stuck on this Flew person being a theist." You need to read what I write and quit editorializing or fantasizing, one or the other.

---I am contending that because of my perception that you are excited by Flew's conversion to theism. Your statement was that "Flew finding it is news." and that this is "significant." I don't think it's significant at all, either to people's own decision regarding faith OR to the religious community.

Do you think it is possible that science can prove theism?

---No, nor do I think it's possible science can prove atheism. Proof is not possible in matter of faith.

Then you should probably read Schroeder.

---I don't have any such inclination. I just have to read criticisms posted by literalists to tell me that he's done what William Jennings Bryan did, and that's not wholly faithful with the language of The Book.

For example, according to Dr. Schroeder, since the universe started in such a very tiny volume, the first twenty-four hour day was a time period of 8 billion years. As the universe continued to expand, the second day was only 4 billion years, the third day was 2 billion years, the fourth day was 1 billion years, the fifth day was 1/2 billion years and the sixth day was 1/4 billion years for a grand total of 15 3/4 billion years. He does not rest this choice of variable ‘day’ lengths on any discernible scientific reasoning, nor does he offer any Biblical basis for such a division. We are merely supposed to accept his re-definition of the word ‘day’ and ignore all the Biblical evidence (such as Genesis 1:5 and Exodus 20:8–11) that each Creation day was essentially the same length of time as an ordinary day of the week today.

Moreover, Dr. Schroeder’s arbitrary numbers are not consistent with each other. He chooses to divide ’the 15 billion years by the degree of expansion of the universe, which he defines as a million million (1,000,000,000,000), and then multiplying that by 365 for the number of days in a year. He states that the answer is approximately 6, proving his theory, which states that we are in the afternoon of the sixth day. However, the actual answer is 5.475, meaning that we have not yet reached the sixth day. Therefore, according to his theory, animals and humans should not be around.


92 posted on 12/27/2004 4:50:17 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: LibertarianInExile
I am contending that because of my perception that you are excited by Flew's conversion to theism. Your statement was that "Flew finding it is news." and that this is "significant." I don't think it's significant at all, either to people's own decision regarding faith OR to the religious community.

So what?

---No, nor do I think it's possible science can prove atheism. Proof is not possible in matter of faith.

Well, thank you for validating my opinion that you're original "Gotcha" was simply condescension writ large.

---I don't have any such inclination.

You write this and then offer a treatise on Schroeder. I wasn't aware arrogance came in such extremes. Live and learn.

93 posted on 12/27/2004 4:55:40 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: AndrewC

Not to worry, AC....the poster's argument is with God, after all. I am only repeating the Word of God. Ergo, the poster doesn't recognize it and doesn't like it. That's probably because he is his own god. Making for a very small god, I might add.


94 posted on 12/27/2004 5:57:43 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: jwalsh07

If I want a textbook example of arrogance, I need only read your responses to anyone on this thread who responds to a single of your posts. Having had quite enough of your churlish comments, I bid good day to you, sir.


95 posted on 12/27/2004 7:24:27 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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To: LibertarianInExile

:-} Very funny, an imitation of English socialist?


96 posted on 12/27/2004 8:00:35 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: LibertarianInExile
You said -- "I may not be much of a Christian, but I know what makes a difference in people's hearts, and it's not Pax TV or CBN or other flashy marketing."

Once again, it's only Christ, as there is no other way. Pax TV and/or CBN, plus hosts of other mechanisms are simply means of communication to the end that Christ is the Savior. To the end that those media do that, then it is good. To the end that they do not proclaim that, then it is bad. It's that simple.

And also, the proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as given to us in the Word of God (i.e., the Bible, not as from anyone who differs from the Bible) can and will take on many forms. Part of that "form" may very well involve the understanding of what the Bible says. That understanding can also come from others who are in the same position as the reader, when then lends some understanding to the reader. Hence, the "stories" of a person's own personal experience as it relates to what God is doing in their own life.

Repeating once more -- as this is the absolute key.

In John 14:6 --

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

That's not Buddha, Joseph Smith, the Pope, the Watchtower Society, the Dahli Lama, Mohammed, or any of the other countless counterfeit Christs (if anyone chooses these over Christ).

We should all praise the Lord, those of us who are actually of Christ.

     Psalm 105

      1 Oh, give thanks to the Lord! Call upon His name;
        Make known His deeds among the peoples!

      2 Sing to Him, sing psalms to Him; Talk of all His
        wondrous works!

      3 Glory in His holy name; Let the hearts of those
        rejoice who seek the Lord!

      4 Seek the Lord and His strength; Seek His face
        evermore!

      5 Remember His marvelous works which He has done,
        His wonders, and the judgments of His mouth,

      6 O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of
        Jacob, His chosen ones!

      7 He is the Lord our God; His judgments are in all
        the earth.

      8 He remembers His covenant forever, The word which
        He commanded, for a thousand generations,

      9 The covenant which He made with Abraham, And His
        oath to Isaac,

     10 And confirmed it to Jacob for a statute, To
        Israel as an everlasting covenant,

     11 Saying, "To you I will give the land of Canaan
        As the allotment of your inheritance,"

     12 When they were few in number, Indeed very few,
        and strangers in it.

     13 When they went from one nation to another, From
        one kingdom to another people,

     14 He permitted no one to do them wrong; Yes, He
        rebuked kings for their sakes,

     15 Saying, "Do not touch My anointed ones, And do
        My prophets no harm."

     16 Moreover He called for a famine in the land; He
        destroyed all the provision of bread.

     17 He sent a man before them -- Joseph-- who was
        sold as a slave. 18 They hurt his feet with
        fetters, He was laid in irons.

     19 Until the time that his word came to pass, The
        word of the Lord tested him.

     20 The king sent and released him, The ruler of the
        people let him go free.

     21 He made him lord of his house, And ruler of all
        his possessions,

     22 To bind his princes at his pleasure, And teach
        his elders wisdom.

     23 Israel also came into Egypt, And Jacob dwelt in
        the land of Ham.

     24 He increased His people greatly, And made them
        stronger than their enemies.

     25 He turned their heart to hate His people, To
        deal craftily with His servants.

     26 He sent Moses His servant, And Aaron whom He had
        chosen.

     27 They performed His signs among them, And wonders
        in the land of Ham.

     28 He sent darkness, and made it dark; And they did
        not rebel against His word.

     29 He turned their waters into blood, And killed
        their fish.

     30 Their land abounded with frogs, Even in the
        chambers of their kings.

     31 He spoke, and there came swarms of flies, And
        lice in all their territory.

     32 He gave them hail for rain, And flaming fire in
        their land.

     33 He struck their vines also, and their fig trees,
        And splintered the trees of their territory.

     34 He spoke, and locusts came, Young locusts
        without number,

     35 And ate up all the vegetation in their land, And
        devoured the fruit of their ground.

     36 He also destroyed all the firstborn in their
        land, The first of all their strength.

     37 He also brought them out with silver and gold,
        And there was none feeble among His tribes.

     38 Egypt was glad when they departed, For the fear
        of them had fallen upon them.

     39 He spread a cloud for a covering, And fire to
        give light in the night.

     40 The people asked, and He brought quail, And
        satisfied them with the bread of heaven.

     41 He opened the rock, and water gushed out; It ran
        in the dry places like a river.

     42 For He remembered His holy promise, And Abraham
        His servant.

     43 He brought out His people with joy, His chosen
        ones with gladness.

     44 He gave them the lands of the Gentiles, And they
        inherited the labor of the nations,

     45 That they might observe His statutes And keep
        His laws. Praise the Lord!

The promises the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob keeps with Israel, which stand forever (as He says), He also keeps with us in Jesus Christ (those which He has given to us in the Bible, His Word).

Jesus says we are not to hide the light that is in us. That goes for all who are His, from the least to the greatest. We, as the true believers in Christ (not simply church-goers or members of a congregation or whatever group), are to continually show the "light" of Christ (in us) to the world constantly. The Bible is full of that exhortation to all believers.

Matthew 5:14-16

     14 You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a
        hill cannot be hidden.

     15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on
        a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

     16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your
        good works and glorify your Father in heaven.

You need to be reading your Bible a little bit more.

Regards,

Star Traveler

97 posted on 12/27/2004 8:19:03 PM PST by Star Traveler
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To: LibertarianInExile
You're making a good point:

But from the perspective of proselytizing, I don't see it being a good sales tool

However, once again from the cultural perspective - in a great part of popular discussion - there's only 1) what's known (by science alone) and 2) the unknown (everything else especially religion.)

Having this type of change and discussion in the realm of philosophy of science helps free the dialogue as well as avoiding forcing false choices such as "Science OR Relgion."

And, in this respect, it does help open minds, and remove the need for some plowing of ground to even begin proselytizing or apologetics.

Thanks for your reply..

98 posted on 12/27/2004 8:20:02 PM PST by D-fendr
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To: protest1
Very telling that the best arguments of leading atheist darwinist Richard Dawkins failed to keep Antony Flew an atheist

Indeed. Since reading and studying some issues regarding the staggering, entwined complexity of the structure of the Bible, I've come to believe it would be almost impossible for anyone to open-mindedly and intellectually approach the Bible from that perspective and not be convinced of its divinity. The plaintext is wondrous enough, of course, but to see the way sixty-six separate books penned by over forty scribes over a period spanning thousands of years come together in an intricate mesh of perfection is utterly awesome. It is mathematically impossible that its origin isn't from a single source outside our space-time domain.

MM

99 posted on 12/27/2004 8:30:58 PM PST by MississippiMan (Americans should not be sacrificed on the altar of political correctness.)
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To: Star Traveler

Yes, but again, in your haste to tell me to pull out the Book, you miss the point. Trotting out Flew as evidence of the righteousness of His cause is hardly shining YOUR light. Take the plank out of your own eye next time before you tell me to read the Bible a bit more closely. That Jesus wants us to spread the Word has naught to do with spreading the news that Flew is a theist.


100 posted on 12/27/2004 8:53:23 PM PST by LibertarianInExile (NO BLOOD FOR CHOCOLATE! Get the UN-ignoring, unilateralist Frogs out of Ivory Coast!)
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