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Why the Japanese Internment Still Matters
War to Mobilize Democracy ^ | December 28, 2004 | Daniel Pipes

Posted on 12/28/2004 7:55:25 AM PST by forty_years

For years, it has been my position that the threat of radical Islam implies an imperative to focus security measures on Muslims. If searching for rapists, one looks only at the male population. Similarly, if searching for Islamists (adherents of radical Islam), one looks at the Muslim population.

And so, I was encouraged by a just-released Cornell University opinion survey that finds nearly half the U.S. population agreeing with this proposition. Specifically, 44 percent of Americans believe that government authorities should direct special attention toward Muslims living in America, either by registering their whereabouts, profiling them, monitoring their mosques, or infiltrating their organizations.

Also encouraging, the survey finds the more people follow TV news, the more likely they are to support these common-sense steps. Those who are best informed about current issues, in other words, are also the most sensible about adopting self-evident defensive measures.

That's the good news; the bad news is the near-universal disapproval of this realism. Leftist and Islamist organizations have so successfully intimidated public opinion that polite society shies away from endorsing a focus on Muslims.

In America, this intimidation results in large part from a revisionist interpretation of the evacuation, relocation, and internment of ethnic Japanese during World War II. Although more than 60 years past, these events matter yet deeply today, permitting the victimization lobby, in compensation for the supposed horrors of internment, to condemn in advance any use of ethnicity, nationality, race, or religion in formulating domestic security policy.

Denying that the treatment of ethnic Japanese resulted from legitimate national security concerns, this lobby has established that it resulted solely from a combination of "wartime hysteria" and "racial prejudice." As radical groups like the American Civil Liberties Union wield this interpretation, in the words of Michelle Malkin, "like a bludgeon over the War on Terror debate," they pre-empt efforts to build an effective defense against today's Islamist enemy.

Fortunately, the intrepid Ms. Malkin, a columnist and specialist on immigration issues, has re-opened the internment file. Her recently published book, bearing the provocative title In Defense of Internment: The Case for Racial Profiling in World War II and the War on Terror (Regnery), starts with the unarguable premise that in time of war, "the survival of the nation comes first." From there, she draws the corollary that "Civil liberties are not sacrosanct."

She then reviews the historical record of the early 1940s and finds that:

Ms. Malkin has done the singular service of breaking the academic single-note scholarship on a critical subject, cutting through a shabby, stultifying consensus to reveal how, "given what was known and not known at the time," President Roosevelt and his staff did the right thing.

She correctly concludes that, especially in time of war, governments should take into account nationality, ethnicity, and religious affiliation in their homeland security policies and engage in what she calls "threat profiling." These steps may entail bothersome or offensive measures but, she argues, they are preferable to "being incinerated at your office desk by a flaming hijacked plane."

http://netwmd.com/articles/article837.html


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: and; anwr; auschwitz; case; cornell; danielpipes; defense; focus; for; ii; imperative; implies; in; internment; intimidated; islam; islamist; japanese; leftist; malkin; matters; measures; michelle; muslims; of; on; opinion; organizations; profiling; public; racial; radical; regnery; rkba; security; still; successfully; survey; terror; the; threat; university; war; world
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1 posted on 12/28/2004 7:55:28 AM PST by forty_years
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To: forty_years

Besides the PC issues, we have another problem with the muslims, specifically the Arabs, that we didn't have with the Japanese.

Oil.


2 posted on 12/28/2004 8:10:39 AM PST by umgud
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To: forty_years

Just 44%? Wait till terrorists start car boming malls,or maybe releasing anthrax,botulism, etc.. . What will the pc crowd say then? How about a small nuclear devise detonated in NYC, maybe in Times Square?


3 posted on 12/28/2004 8:12:59 AM PST by thombo
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To: thombo
What about the Twin Towers? Over 3000 murdered by Islamist terrorists right in the lib's front yard and they still scream racial profiling! The only way to change a NY liberal's mind is to kill them.
I have no problem with internment camps. We know that there are sleepers and sleeper cells here. It is impossible to watch, follow, listen in on all meetings - even if the lefties would allow it.
Get them all in one place and they are a whole lot easier to deal with. And we are a lot safer. And in the event of another terrorist attack they will be safer too.
4 posted on 12/28/2004 8:19:52 AM PST by Semper Vigilantis (If guns kill people then forks made Micheal Moore fat.)
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To: forty_years

Its pretty stupid not to be watching muslims. I know I am leery of any middles easterner.


5 posted on 12/28/2004 8:19:54 AM PST by sgtbono2002
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Comment #6 Removed by Moderator

To: forty_years

BUMP!


7 posted on 12/28/2004 8:23:32 AM PST by Publius6961 (The most abundant things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.)
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To: forty_years
Okay, so rather than talk about something that happened 60 years ago, why not simply call for the internment of Muslims in the U.S. and be done with it?

Yeah, and roughly 50% of Americans support a woman's right to kill her unborn child. That doesn't make it right.

I guess the phrase "Give me liberty, or give me death" no longer holds any meaning for mainstream "conservatives." WorldNetDaily columnist Vox Day did a credible job of debunking Malkin's ridiculous anti-freedom, anti-American arguments.

Typical neocon BS. In time of war, governments should take into account the right of citizens to protect themselves. Federal gun control laws were largely responsible for the tragic extent of the damage on 9/11. One or two armed passengers could have saved 3,000 lives. Why anyone would even consider trusting a government that has been systematically disarming the public is beyond my comprehension.

I will ask again: If "the survival of the nation comes first," then why don't so-called "conservatives" call for the internment of all Muslims? If doing so could save millions of American lives, isn't it worth it?

Unless, of course, the proposed threat has been somewhat exaggerated.....

8 posted on 12/28/2004 8:30:49 AM PST by sheltonmac ("Duty is ours; consequences are God's." -Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson)
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To: forty_years
Adding to the list of facts, I remember reading that:

* Most were openly and rabidly Anti-American
* Over 80% of those interned held dual citizenship.
* Most of these, at the opening of hostilities, applied for visas to return to Japan
* As this was an entirely new phenomenon, Congress had to enact regulations regarding issuance of visas during wartime.

IF YOU HATE US, YOU DON'T BELONG HERE. GO WHERE YOU ARE COMFORTABLE! NO ONE WILL STOP YOU!!!
9 posted on 12/28/2004 8:33:21 AM PST by SMARTY ("Stay together, pay the soldiers and forget everything else." Lucius Septimus Severus to his sons)
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To: Semper Vigilantis

"The only way to change a NY liberal's mind is to kill them."

And it would seem the Arabs are hard at work doing just that. Maybe we decent and normal Americans should just sit back and let the liberals give the Muslims a great big hug.

And then get a nice big guffaw as they try to pull that scimitar out of their back. Hey, killing liberals and Jews is a Muslim cultural thing and I suppose we should respect their cultural values. With social relativism who's to say it isn't wrong to kill liberals and Jews, right? I mean, really, is our culture really so much better than Islam that we should stand in the way of faithful Muslims killing liberals and Jews if that's what they truly believe they are called to do? (sarcasm)


10 posted on 12/28/2004 8:35:14 AM PST by PeterFinn (Liberals are a greater threat to the USA than are Islamofascists.)
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: forty_years
"She correctly concludes that, especially in time of war, governments should take into account nationality, ethnicity, and religious affiliation in their homeland security policies and engage in what she calls "threat profiling." These steps may entail bothersome or offensive measures but, she argues, they are preferable to "being incinerated at your office desk by a flaming hijacked plane."

::::Clapping:::::::

WTG Michelle

12 posted on 12/28/2004 8:38:17 AM PST by stopem
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To: umgud

Actually the Japanese attacked us because of their dependence on our oil.


13 posted on 12/28/2004 8:42:38 AM PST by massgopguy (massgopguy)
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To: massgopguy

True, but we weren't dependent on them for anything, and thus, had no impediment to interning them. Besides, we were at war with them and saner minds prevailed in those days.


14 posted on 12/28/2004 8:44:41 AM PST by umgud
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To: sheltonmac

Interesting post.

I believe internment is a political albatross. I think the Admin wants us to believe that, while we are not 100% safe, all of the measures taken since 911 are having the intended effect of making us "safer". Let's keep business as usual, so we can continue to keep civilian production on track.

Internment would demonstrate that we are not "safer", that more extraordinary measures are necessary, which would have tremendous negative repercussions on the economy, if only on consumer confidence.

As to your point that one or 2 guns on planes could have saved 3000 lives, I have to point out that the hijackers would also have been armed, so very likely the situation would have remained the same. Just a thought. I'm OK with arming pilots, but I can't get behind allowing passengers to carry on board.


15 posted on 12/28/2004 8:47:08 AM PST by dmz
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To: PeterFinn
Whoops, sorry, forgot my sarcasm tag on that one.

Isn't it amazing that libs can completely ignore what is going on around them? Are they so egotistical/irrational that they believe they would be spared by Islamofacists because they support their right to do whatever they want?
(Of course they will only support them until they become a MAJORITY!)

16 posted on 12/28/2004 8:49:22 AM PST by Semper Vigilantis (If guns kill people then forks made Micheal Moore fat.)
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To: forty_years
.

How many Freepers think that if a few dozen out of the millions of American citizens who belong to a church commit crimes against the government then all it's members' weapons should be confiscated?

17 posted on 12/28/2004 8:54:38 AM PST by mrsmith
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To: forty_years
the relocation camps for Japanese were "spartan facilities that were for the most part administered humanely."

One was administered by our great-uncle. His wife is still alive and gets angry at any suggestion that the internees (at least the ones at that camp) were treated badly.

18 posted on 12/28/2004 8:54:53 AM PST by pbear8 (On Christmas Night all Christians sing to hear the news the angels bring...)
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To: forty_years; Congressman Billybob; Poohbah; veronica; section9

It was still wrong to intern American citizens of Japanese descent without any evidence of wrongdoing.

Congressman Billybob also wrote a book on it. I think his comments on this are well worth consideration.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1291543/posts?page=10#10

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1132301/posts?page=78#78

Michelle Malkin and Daniel Pipes are defending the indefensible in this case. There is simply no other phrase that can accurately describe it. Antonin Scalia properly placed the Korematsu ruling approving the internment next to Dred Scott in terms of bad calls.


19 posted on 12/28/2004 8:57:09 AM PST by hchutch (A pro-artificial turf, pro-designated hitter baseball fan.)
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To: forty_years

"Specifically, 44 percent of Americans believe that government authorities should direct special attention toward Muslims living in America, either by registering their whereabouts, profiling them, monitoring their mosques, or infiltrating their organizations."

Aside from Muslims themselves, the remaining 56% of Americans are either braindead or totally unfamiliar with Islam and its tenets, practises and culture.


20 posted on 12/28/2004 8:57:18 AM PST by ZULU (Fear the government which fears your guns. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: hchutch
Thank you my friend. You saved me about 20 minutes of posting time and 20 points on my blood pressure to respond to this canard before I saw it and felt compelled to set aside all other activities and attack.

Congressman Billybob

Click for latest, "Jon Stewart, You Magnificent B*stard! I Read Your Book!"

21 posted on 12/28/2004 9:02:10 AM PST by Congressman Billybob (Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.)
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To: hchutch
If searching for rapists, one looks only at the male population.

Daniel Pipes may be a pretty smart guy, but bloopers like this can convince people he's an idiot...

22 posted on 12/28/2004 9:11:29 AM PST by Poohbah (God must love fools. He makes so many of them...)
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To: SMARTY

What you read and what really went on are two very different things.


23 posted on 12/28/2004 9:12:12 AM PST by Poohbah (God must love fools. He makes so many of them...)
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To: Poohbah

Agreed. Folks like Pipes and Michelle Malkin do the conservative movement no favors when they defend the indefensible.


24 posted on 12/28/2004 9:15:48 AM PST by hchutch (A pro-artificial turf, pro-designated hitter baseball fan.)
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To: forty_years
Ironically, the Japanese internment is approached very cautiously by some conservatives because it was implemented by FDR and Earl Warren as part of "the Good War" (and it was also criticized by J. Edgar Hoover). Plus there is the "palaeoconservative" sympathy with the Axis powers.

I used to be a member of the Birch Society, and they harped on the Japanese internment the same way the liberals do.

25 posted on 12/28/2004 9:17:08 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Okay, Chanukkah's over, y'all. Chr*stmas and "kwanzaa" have to go it alone now!)
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To: hchutch
That line jumped out at me because there was a female sailor convicted of multiple counts of forcible rape and sodomy (I won't give you the gory details--suffice it to say that she didn't engage in discrimination on the basis of gender) at Beaufort Naval Hospital while I was stationed at MCAS Beaufort.

Women rapists are a minority, but they do exist.

26 posted on 12/28/2004 9:23:54 AM PST by Poohbah (God must love fools. He makes so many of them...)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I have no brief for the Birchers, but I view the internment of Japanese-Americans, solely for the reason of having Japanese ancestry, as morally indefensible. It boiled down to legalized looting of an unpopular minority's property under the guise of "national security."
27 posted on 12/28/2004 9:25:52 AM PST by Poohbah (God must love fools. He makes so many of them...)
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To: pbear8

Sure--as long as being "treated badly" excludes forced internment. Aside from that, I hear they were treated like royalty.

28 posted on 12/28/2004 9:32:29 AM PST by sheltonmac ("Duty is ours; consequences are God's." -Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson)
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To: Poohbah
It was little more complicated than that. JA's in Hawaii were never interned because martial law was in effect. Also:

1) Of the 120,000 JA's interned over 6,000 renounced their citizanship and moved back to Japan after the war.

2) Over 25% of the JA's refused to sign a loyalty oath pledging unqualified allegiance.

3) Many JA's were dual citizens. Further most JA's were under the age of 16 and were only Americans by virtue of being born in this country. Most of the JA's over 25 were in fact Japanese resident aliens - not American citizens.
29 posted on 12/28/2004 9:32:57 AM PST by rcocean
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To: Poohbah
It was little more complicated than that. JA's in Hawaii were never interned because martial law was in effect. Also:

1) Of the 120,000 JA's interned over 6,000 renounced their citizanship and moved back to Japan after the war.

2) Over 25% of the JA's refused to sign a loyalty oath pledging unqualified allegiance.

3) Many JA's were dual citizens. Further most JA's were under the age of 16 and were only Americans by virtue of being born in this country. Most of the JA's over 25 were in fact Japanese resident aliens - not American citizens.
30 posted on 12/28/2004 9:32:57 AM PST by rcocean
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To: forty_years
the treatment of ethnic Japanese resulted from legitimate national security concerns

The big problem with japanese internment was that the italians and germans were not interned. At the time of the internment, the was a lot of dicrimination against japanese americans. Also, at the time of internment, immigrants of all nations were welcomed except for asiatics (japan and china in particulat). Also, there was no compensation offered to long time japanese citizens who lost most all of their possessions including land bought by whites at bargain prices then, that is worth billions now.

Finally, the number a japanese spies was not any greater than the population at large as post WWII investigations later found out.

31 posted on 12/28/2004 9:36:47 AM PST by staytrue
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To: sheltonmac
Why anyone would even consider trusting a government that has been systematically disarming the public is beyond my comprehension.

Outstanding point.

32 posted on 12/28/2004 9:38:16 AM PST by Alberta's Child (If whiskey was his mistress, his true love was the West . . .)
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To: SMARTY
You say that "you read" that:

* Most were openly and rabidly Anti-American
* Over 80% of those interned held dual citizenship.
* Most of these, at the opening of hostilities, applied for visas to return to Japan
* As this was an entirely new phenomenon, Congress had to enact regulations regarding issuance of visas during wartime.

On any reasonable understanding, none of these are true.

1. Certainly a few were "anti-American" (and a few were repatriated to Japan). All contemporary accounts , however, describe intense patriotism -- tens of thousands volunteered for service from the camps. And remember, 100,000 or more exactly comparable persons of japanese ancestry lived unmolested on Hawaii all during the war, without any visible, let alone "open and rabid" anti-americanism.

2. Way over 20% were native-born american citizens. If Japan called them "dual citizens" (and I don't know of the evidence for this -- you may be right) that's not their fault. Any American citizen has to renounce allegiance to any other country -- what the other country does is not under their control.

3. No evidence at all that "most" of "80%" of all internees applied to return to Japan. My guess is that you are misreporting, at best, "most" of some very small subset of Japanese citizens in the US.

4. Regulation of visas in wartime is certainly not a new phenomenon. See WW I.

Not everything in Malkin's book is Loony, but the 4 points you have picked out here are.

33 posted on 12/28/2004 9:38:27 AM PST by BohDaThone
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To: Semper Vigilantis
I have no problem with internment camps.

Most people don't, unless it is they who are interned. It's a lot like false arrest and jail. People are all for excusing police excesses, as long as they are not the victims of the excess.

34 posted on 12/28/2004 9:39:33 AM PST by staytrue
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To: sheltonmac

It's also worth noting that any kind of measure aimed at dealing with potential threats from Middle Easterners would overlook people like Johnny bin Walker, that Adam Something-or-Other moron from California who is now an al-Qaeda operative, the D.C. snipers, etc.


35 posted on 12/28/2004 9:40:31 AM PST by Alberta's Child (If whiskey was his mistress, his true love was the West . . .)
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To: Semper Vigilantis

Liberals are mentally ill. It's a fact.

Here's my proof:

Suicidal tendencies are a mental aberration.

Liberals support immigration and cultural policies that are effectively suicidal as they admit into this land people whose fondest desire is to wash their hands in the blood of infidels who are epitomized by liberals.

Liberalism is therefore a mental aberration.

PS, your sarcasm tag wasn't needed. (:


36 posted on 12/28/2004 9:40:59 AM PST by PeterFinn (Liberals are a greater threat to the USA than are Islamofascists.)
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To: massgopguy
Actually the Japanese attacked us because of their dependence on our oil.

Very true. I've always found it interesting that that dependence existed because their ambition was to impose a regional hegemony. Yet it was that very ambition which caused Roosevelt to cut off fuel and scrap metal shipments.

Which sets up the pseudo-paradox: they could have had all the oil and metal they wanted so long as they weren't expansionists, but they only wanted the oil and metal in the first place because they were expansionists...

37 posted on 12/28/2004 9:41:25 AM PST by WildHorseCrash
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To: SMARTY

Organized crime was once a big problem and mostly Sicilians. Why the hell did we not intern the Sicilians.


38 posted on 12/28/2004 9:41:29 AM PST by staytrue
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To: rcocean
1) Of the 120,000 JA's interned over 6,000 renounced their citizanship and moved back to Japan after the war.

You know something? If I were interned in a s**thole for three years, and had my property legally looted from me, followed by a "OK, you're free to go, and we're not compensating you for your losses," I'd probably move to Ireland and say to hell with my US citizenship.

2) Over 25% of the JA's refused to sign a loyalty oath pledging unqualified allegiance.

I learned in the Marine Corps that loyalty is a two-way street. If I'd been detained for no just cause, and the government that detained me then demanded that I sign a loyalty oath, I'd tell the bureaucrat to take his oath and use it as a suppository.

3) Many JA's were dual citizens. Further most JA's were under the age of 16 and were only Americans by virtue of being born in this country. Most of the JA's over 25 were in fact Japanese resident aliens - not American citizens.

You've just contradicted yourself.

39 posted on 12/28/2004 9:43:22 AM PST by Poohbah (God must love fools. He makes so many of them...)
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To: Poohbah
You know, your thinking is interesting. If the 120K or so of Japanese on American soil were not imprisoned, how many of that number would it have taken to cost some Americans' lives, possibly many American lives?

Taking that position, would you have willingly given up those American lives to not be a "racist"? How many American lives would you be willing to give up before you could think about internment?

Uncomfortable questions, don't you think?

40 posted on 12/28/2004 9:43:59 AM PST by William Terrell (Individuals can exist without government but government can't exist without individuals.)
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To: rcocean
JA's in Hawaii were never interned because martial law was in effect.

Interesting. Hawaii wasn't even a state at the time, so I'd be curious if any action on the part of the U.S. government could have been opposed on Constitutional grounds anyway.

41 posted on 12/28/2004 9:44:20 AM PST by Alberta's Child (If whiskey was his mistress, his true love was the West . . .)
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To: rcocean

Can you blame them?

I would hope that any freedom-loving American would also refuse to sign such an oath.

Citizens or not, everyone here is entitled to basic human rights. Due process is not exclusive to American citizens. Forced internment of anyone who hasn't committed a crime has no place in a nation built in the name of liberty.

42 posted on 12/28/2004 9:44:54 AM PST by sheltonmac ("Duty is ours; consequences are God's." -Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
"palaeoconservative" sympathy with the Axis powers.

Where the hell do you get that ? There are plenty of racists in all camps, conservative and liberal. I think there are actually more in the liberal camp and to specifically single out paleos because a few of their members might be neo nazis is not right.

In fact, it is as bad as interning all japs just because 1 or 2 might be spies.

43 posted on 12/28/2004 9:46:13 AM PST by staytrue
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To: staytrue
Sicilians did not ally themselves with the anti American policies of a foreign country at war with the US. Or has that fact been re written too?
44 posted on 12/28/2004 9:49:38 AM PST by SMARTY ("Stay together, pay the soldiers and forget everything else." Lucius Septimus Severus to his sons)
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To: William Terrell; hchutch; Congressman Billybob
If the 120K or so of Japanese on American soil were not imprisoned, how many of that number would it have taken to cost some Americans' lives, possibly many American lives?

A great many--far more than the actual number of Japanese-Americans . There were a few internments for good and reasonable cause. In these cases, the government presented evidence before a judge, and the accused was allowed to question that evidence. (Due process, whaddafugginconcept...)

Taking that position, would you have willingly given up those American lives to not be a "racist"?

How much freedom are you personally willing to forfeit in return for a government promise of security? That which they claim the government claims it can do to American citizens of Japanese descent today, can be done to "right-wing extremists" tomorrow.

How many American lives would you be willing to give up before you could think about internment?

Hey, let's get this back to Pipes' idiotic argument: the vast majority of rapists are men. One man can commit many rapes, and many of those rapes can include murder. How many rapes (and concomitant murders) are you willing to accept before you could think about imprisoning interning all men in concentration detention camps?

45 posted on 12/28/2004 9:51:34 AM PST by Poohbah (God must love fools. He makes so many of them...)
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To: sheltonmac

I think everyone is missing an important point.

NO ONE wants to intern the muslims, only look at them more closely than someone else and I think that is justified.

Being jailed is not the same as being profiled for investigation.


46 posted on 12/28/2004 9:52:13 AM PST by staytrue
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To: SMARTY

You know, the Jews were a large security risk to Hitler's germany. I suppose you support their internment too. I'm not saying you support their execution, but for a lot of them it was simply internment of a possibly traitorous group.


47 posted on 12/28/2004 9:57:27 AM PST by staytrue
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To: staytrue
I am a realist. If killing non-Southern Baptists was an accepted part of being a Southern Baptist and groups of Southern Baptists were engaged in mass murder and plots to blow up civilian office buildings and shopping centers and dedicated to destroying the infrastructure of this country I would be speaking out against them. I would do everything I could to show that not all Southern Baptists were extremists. I would denounce their practices (gee, how many 'Holy Men' and followers from the world of Islam are doing that?). And if they weren't stopped then I would also understand WHY I was being interred.
The security of the nation comes first. I'm not paranoid about the government stealing my rights - I'm scared to death that some whacked out extremist will terminate my rights.
48 posted on 12/28/2004 9:59:51 AM PST by Semper Vigilantis (If guns kill people then forks made Micheal Moore fat.)
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To: staytrue

Fine, but why would anyone use a book entitled In Defense of Internment to reinforce that point? Malkin's book has been praised heavily by many so-called "conservatives," but the title itself implies that internment is nothing but a form of profiling.

49 posted on 12/28/2004 10:01:03 AM PST by sheltonmac ("Duty is ours; consequences are God's." -Gen. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson)
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The Hidden Hand: Middle East Fears of Conspiracy by Daniel Pipes

50 posted on 12/28/2004 10:11:20 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Islam is just medieval fascism.)
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