Posted on 12/30/2004 12:55:09 PM PST by JeffersonRepublic.com
Israel has failed to end a crisis in military relations with the United States regarding defense sales to China.
Israeli officials said the U.S. Defense Department has boycotted the Defense Ministry because of Israeli weapons projects in China. They said the ministry as well as leading Israeli politicians have failed to resolve the crisis.
Defense Ministry Director-General Amos Yaron briefed the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Wednesday.
Citing national security, he refused to provide details of the China deal. But he said he hoped the crisis would be resolved by March 2005. He did not elaborate.
Four parliamentarians walked out of the meeting in protest. Earlier, Yaron provided details to a subcommitee on intelligence.
"If we provide details of the Israeli-U.S. episode, within minutes it will be leaked to the press," a senior defense official said.
Yaron said that the crisis erupted despite his contention that Israel did not violated any commitments to Washington. Yaron said the Pentagon has been angered by the supply of replacements parts for an existing weapons system sold to China.
"We did not break any American law and no policy," Yaron said. Israeli Foreign Minister Silvan Shalom said bilateral trade has reached $1.6 billion a year. Other officials put the figure at $2 billion.
"I would like to leave it in the hands of the two governments," Shalom said. "I am sure that we'll come to an appropriate solution that will be achieved in a short time."
Officials said the system was the Harpy strike unmanned aerial vehicle, with an endurance of seven hours and a range of 550 kilometers. Israel sold more than 40 Harpy UAVs to China in 1995 and the platform was returned to Israel for an upgrade.
For its part, China has rejected the prospect that Israel would agree to withhold the Harpy UAVs from Beijing. Chinese deputy prime minister said Israeli-U.S. cooperation does not harm any third state.
In 2002, Israel Aircraft Industries supplied upgrade kits for the Harpy deployed by China. In 2004, China requested additional kits, something the Defense Ministry rejected.
Yaron was quoted as saying justifying Israeli relations with China. He was said to have told the committee that the United States must not interfere in Israeli affairs.
After all the capital the US has put on the line to back Israel, this is how it’s repaid. I think they should view us as a partner, not a nation that they can freeload off of.
They probably sold them the AWACs.
When X42 sold first-rate military tech to the chicoms, he was condemned on this forum as a traitor.
Not one of the smartest things the Israelis have done. Do they think that if they feed the tiger they'll be eaten last?
The Harpy was developed by Israeli Aircraft Industries, not the US.
Your observation does not apply in this situation.
While I think Israel is foolish to do what they did, they didn't transfer sensitive US developed technology to China.
If you think the chicoms aren't the enemy, think again.
Normally, I don't disagree with you. However, this time, you're wrong.
Bill Clinton betrayed this country by the transfer of our technology to China.
Israel sold their technology to China, not ours.
Plus, care to check and see how many of our jet fighters have been told to enemies of Israel?
And we do the same. Don't delude yourself into thinking the US government is some paragon of vitrute.
Syria? None.
Egypt? Last I knew, they had MiGs.
"Palestinian Authority"? None.
Iraq? None.
Jordan? None.
Iran? Not since the Mullahs took over.
I suppose you probably consider Saudi Arabia and Pakistan "Enemies of Israel", but I don't recall any direct conflict between them. Turkey and Israel get along surprisingly well.
The US is the only friend Israel has in the world. What the hell are they thinking?
Selling military tech to genocidal tyrants is reprehensible and stupid. Jews in Israel, even more than Americans, should know better.
If you're going to excuse the Israelis, you (probably) owe X42 an apology.
"No direct conflict" is the equivalent of "no controlling legal authority."
The rest, okay, I stand corrected.
There is still a big difference between selling out your own country and Israel selling it's own technology.
Was it stupid? You bet. Was it the equivalent of what Bill Clinton did? Nope. Bill Clinton committed treason. Israel did not.
Perhaps we should freeze out Israel. Then they can do what they should have done a long time ago. Flip us off and not 'show restraint' against those that attack them.
Where did I say I thought it was okay for them to sell sensitive technology to our enemies?
Perhaps you should learn to read and comprehend a little better before you jump in with both feet in your mouth.
This is ridiculous! Now that we've psychoanalyzed each other ... any comment on the substance of the article?
Do you honestly think selling UCAV technology to the chicoms is a good idea?
No I don't. I also don't think that sending money and aid to the ChiComs is wise and we do it all the time in the name of "humanitarian efforts".
Only in the technical sense that slick willy sold first rate military tech to the chicoms for personal gain ... the Israelis appear to be doing it as a matter of official policy. In either case it's stupid, evil, and likely to get good men killed one fine day.
I think I already called it stupid, but evil is probably a good term, too.
If I enter Saudia Arabia a few years back instead of Israel, it also fits. For being such a stingy country, we sure as hell do an awful lot for people who don't give a damn.
Well, duh! You're quite right that we shouldn't be doing that. We also shouldn't be giving them MFN trade status. And I, personally, try to avoid buying stuff made in China.
All of which is beside the point of this thread.
Chicoms have been trying to divide the West for a long time.That's their plan.(they use this thing they call "multilateral" like the French..)
It looks like they're rather successful these days.
From a country that has been telling us for twenty years what sentence Jonathan Pollard ought to have, while accepting billions in aid.
I've always been a defender of Israel, but I have limits.
http://www.rjaf.gov.jo/fighter.htm http://www.scramble.nl/eg.htm
Oh, and we sell them other stuff too, M1A1 Tanks, Cobra Gunships, E2C Hawkeye AWAC, C130 Transport, older F5E TigerII and F4E Phantom fighters, Blackhawks and Chinooks choppers etc.
Just curious. How do you know about the Harpy technology and where it originated? Are you certain it contains 0% technology, subassemblies, or components from the USA?
"Just curious. How do you know about the Harpy technology and where it originated? Are you certain it contains 0% technology, subassemblies, or components from the USA?"
How can you be sure some of the BILLIONS of dollars we send Israel in military aid didn't help them develop "Harpy Technology".
This argument that- the US sells military equipment to other countries, therefore, Israel should not be criticized for selling weapon to US enemies is ridiculous. Israel is nothing without US support. We are the army they call when attacked. We would not call them if China attacks the United States. In fact, in the last two wars we fought in THEIR region, Israel didn’t send their massive army to protect us: it was the other way around.
I thought you said it was "foolish", this seems a few levels below my own "should not".
Plus, I meant (should have been apparent given the context) that since it is pretty much tech they would never have without the US and probably is in fact US tech, they should not be selling it to China.
You seemed to be using equivocation when you said this was Israeli tech, I was attempting to refute this assertion.
Thank you for the tip. I am always looking to improve myself.
First of all,when ever Israel seeks to export an item built with American funding or technological help like the Arrow ATBM or the Phalcon AWACS or the Popeye stand off land attack missile,they need American permission for going ahead.This condition has prevented numerous sales like that of the sale of the Phalcon to China in 2001.OTOH,other Israeli weapons like the Barak SAM & it's various drones can pretty much be sold to anyone & everyone they please to sell it to.That itself is conclusive proof of it being an ISRAELI weapon.Moreover,weapons like the Harpy & the Barak have never been upgraded with American help(funding or otherwise),unlike the Arrow ATBM.
Egypt,Jordan,Saudi Arabia,the UAE,Kuwait & Pakistan have lots of American weapons(over 50% for most of them).Barring the 1st 2,none of the others recognise Israel & can be technically said to be at war with Israel.First of all it is wrong to assume that the Persian Gulf states or Pakistan has never tried to take on Israel.Saudi Arabia mobilised it's forces in 1948 & the 1973 wars,though they saw lesser action than the others.Pakistan heavily cooperates with those nations in training & maintaining their equipment.Pakistani pilots have flown for the Egyptian,Syrian & Jordanian airforces in peace & wartime operations against the Israelis.Infact there are a lot of Pakistanis flying for the Saudi & UAE airforces.Why does Pakistan seek to develop a 3,000+km range missile??They don't need that much to target Indian cities.Remember,Pakistan's bomb started out as the 'Islamic bomb' which was funded by the Saudis & the Libyans in the 70s.
Israel would be the one to suffer if it blows off its deal with China, so it will very wisely make the best possible deal for itself with the US -- that is, the best possible deal regarding the real crisis, the attempted genocide of the Jews by the mass-murdering Moslem Arabs.
And Israel shouldn't be selling UCAVs to the chicoms.
A lot of the equipment sold to the Arabs are state of the art & brand new like the AMRAAM AAM,HARM anti-radar missile,F-15S,F-16s,Harpoon Block2,Apache helo etc & a lot more new sales are expected to be made to these nations.
The Harpy is not a UCAV in the modern sense of the word-it's creators call it a "suicide UAV",which crashes into radar & communication installations(& that's not what modern UCAVs are mean't to do).But on the whole,I agree that Israel shouldn't be selling to China.
This is a discussion about Israel arming enemies of the United States. You and the other apologist for Israel keep trying to put the argument back the US. You try to justify Israel’s weapon market by demonizing the US. The fact is that we will be called to defend Israel if their neighbors attack, we will not ask Israel to fight with us if we are attack by China.
Israel wouldn’t even defend themselves during Gulf War I when Iraq was dropping bombs on them.
And trying to divide the US itself. They bankrolled clinton both times and kerry and probebly helped leftists in other ways too. Look at the conlfict between various elemts of the US government over Taiwan (state department anti-Taiwan with Congress pro-Taiwan).
Care to delve into the FACTS of why Israel chose not to strike Iraq in 91??You probably chose not to.The Israelis had armed their F-15Ds with bombs & revealed their mobile launchers for Jericho missiles to American satellites when Saddam was launching his Scuds at them.But Prime Minister Shamir backed off due to subtle American prodding- because if the Israelis had struck,the (Arab) coalition that Washington had so painfully nursed would have been finished.One of the prerequisites that Syria,Saudi Arabia & other Persian Gulf states had made for siding with Washington was that Israel should have no role in the campaign.In return Israel got American Patriotic missiles(which they rated as terrible) & assurances of increased intelligence participation on Iraq.
BTW,it is because of Israel's attack on Osiraq in 1981 that probably hundreds of thousands of American & other lives were'nt lost in the Gulf war.And the gift that Israel got from Reagan was a temporary stoppage of F-16 sales.
Big Jewish-American lobby provides lots of cushioning.
Don't the aircraft we sell them have downgraded avionics packages? We don't give them our Buck Rogers stuff.
“Care to delve into the FACTS of why Israel chose not to strike Iraq in 91????”
They were probably afraid of the Arab world hating them, so they choose to let the US do it. Maybe they didn’t want to spend their capital fighting a war they knew the US would win in a few months.
I can’t image a US president letting a foreign leader use “subtle prodding” and succeed in convincing him not to protect the American people. I don’t think Israel would either. Your “subtle American prodding” is just another excuse to blame America.
If the Israeli lobbyist were forced to stop bribing our politician, I’m sure our Government would treat the Israeli’s weapon exchange with our enemies different.
Thanks. You made my point. The fact that the US government is objecting to Israeli upgrades being shipped to China suggests that the technology is export controlled by the USA.
Excuse me,but an American president doesn't have to worry of losing 2 billion dollars of military aid whenever he takes any action.That's not the same for an Israeli leader.If you care to know more,refer the archives of any big news agency during GW-1.Israel fully mobilised it's military & would certainly have gone after Saddam,hadn't the US convinced them to back off.If this wasn't so,why did the US send it's OWN army units to man Patriot missile batteries during the war??Such things happen when a leader makes concessions.
Err,Israel is never afraid of the Arabs hating them-they have always hated them.There's nothing new in that.
The US sells downgraded stuff to both the Arabs & Israel(who actually want downgraded stuff which they replace with their own goodies).But that's not exactly fool proof for a variety of reasons.For one,most military systems now can be upgraded by a number of nations.For eg,the M1A1 Abrams of the Saudi or Kuwaiti armies could have their FCS replaced by a German made one which is as good as that found on American Abrams variants.The same goes for aerial systems.While Nixon made a pledge to Israel in the 70s to do everything the US could to ensure Israel's military edge,of late that appears to be changing.Many Arab nations are getting the Harpoon Block2,AMRAAM & PAC-3 weapon systems,which are as good as any Israeli system.The F-16 Blk 60 of the UAE airforce will have an AESA radar far ahead of ones used on American or Israeli jets.Moreover, A Saudi F-15S needn't be fitted with stand off weapons to become a suicide bomb,does it?
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