How can religious people explain something like this?

Guardian ^ | Tuesday December 28, 2004 | Martin Kettle

[skylight4u]

So many interpretations can be made from stories written, rewritten, edited and edited over many years.

Mankind has developed a unique way of self delusion. Are you trying to rationalize gods actions into some understandable explanation?

[Texasforever]

The reality is that we still have countries that are, by choice, living in the 7th century and are at the mercy of the elements. They have resources and they have been supplied with literally trillions of dollars in aid over the last century and they still refuse to use that aid, natural resources and large labor pools to come out of their primitive lifestyles. That is their right and I have no problem with their choice I do have a problem with propping up their "culture" that allows them to have their cake while eating it. I am tired of this country extending a hand to help and having it bitten again and again.

[Giliad]

First, are you saying no one has done anything wrong or sinned since Adam and Eve?

Okay, so in your opinion God should just say, do what you want, no rules, murder, steal, whatever you like. Oh, and while your at it don't even believe in me. God's not asking a lot. All you have to do is believe. There are no "rituals" you have to do to be saved. You can do rituals if you want. You can take communion in rememberance of Christ's sacrifice. You can worship God because you love Him. But that's not what saved you. God can't make it any easier for you, so that's a poor excuse for rejecting Him.

[wimpycat]

Yeah, it's because we have radar now. And Japan has built buildings that are more resistant to earthquakes and they have an early warning system because they have a lot of tidal waves. We get a lot of hurricanes and Japan gets a lot of earthquakes and tsunamis, so it pays to invest in early warning systems.

The last tsunami of any significance to affect the Indian Ocean was when Krakatoa exploded, and that was, what? Late 19th century? They simply don't have big tsunamis in the Indian Ocean all that often. It has nothing to do with being civilized, and everything to do with cost outweighing risks. It would be like England investing in a big tornado early warning system. It's not unheard of, but tornadoes simply aren't very common in England, so an early warning system is not a wise use of resources.

[caseinpoint]

The UK writer is being intellectually dishonest. He merely wants to cast aspersions at those who believe in a loving, merciful God. Let's assume he got what he wanted: a world where this tsunami never happened; in fact, nothing bad ever happened. Now, to prevent the tsunami, I guess God would have had to stop the plate movements that generated the tear in the earth's crust. I'm no geologist but I suspect that to stop all plate movement would have profound implications for the entire world. To stop monsoon and hurricane devastation, He could stop all air movement. But again, the natural consequences would cause us all some serious problems such as drought, floods, etc. etc. So, to prevent all bad things from happening, God would have to put us all in suspended animation--earth and all. Is that what a loving God would do?

The fact is, this life is a time of trial for us, to prove that we love the Lord regardless of our physical conditions. The tsunami was a natural reaction to the processes of running this planet as a life-sustaining globe. It wasn't a judgment on those who died so much as it's a judgment of those of us who have survived. We will have to answer as to how we react on this.

As to my own church, well, my church has monthly fasts where members are asked to contribute the cost of the two meals they skipped to care for the poor. We now are being asked to increase our contributions this month so it can be used for the tsunami victims. That is how god-loving people deal with natural disasters.

[ETERNAL WARMING]

Why should "religion" be held to task? Why is it up to us to "explain" anything?

Natural disasters are just that, NATURAL. The Bible says that nothing shall befall you but that which is common to man. Earthquakes and destruction fit that bill. The difference is that our Lord gives us the strength, the grace and help thru these tragedies. We have peace in knowing that His hand will bring us thru any ordeal.

[skylight4u]

16. The Fall of man...

nicely said.

[wimpycat]

Not to nitpick, but...it wasn't an apple and it wasn't a snake.

[feedback doctor]

I don't want to sound like I'm attacking you as I've already seen happen to me here, but Japan does not see hundreds of 9.0 earthquakes come there way like this either. Yes, your difference is a difference between these countries, but that is not the reason this many people are dieing, the tsunami's did hit areas where warning systems were not good if they were existent and even if they were they would not have had enough time to do too much about it. This is a tragedy, please do not try to say its because they are not Capitalist or fully civilized in your view

If a 9.0 or greater quake occurred off the coast of Hawaii, Alaska, the west coast of the USA, or anywhere in the Pacific, would there be these great numbers deaths in the USA from tsunamies? No, there would not. And why not? What countries have tsunami warning systems? What do these countries have in common? Yes this is a terrible tragedy, and we should help out with whatever personal sacrifice is necessary to save lives. But a country that allows individual's freedom prospers, and a result of that prosperity is the resources to protect itself as much as possible from natural disasters, either by prevention, or warning.

[snarks_when_bored]

God didn't kill those people, a tsunami did. I don't see how you can think that woman wasn't blessed. She's alive isn't she.

I didn't say God killed the tsunami victims. However, it's a direct conclusion from the young woman's account that God could have saved any or all of those victims. Certainly, she seems to think that she was specifically saved, protected, by God, as a result of prayer.

Personally I like the design. When I die, I get to live for eternity in heaven. If you've accepted and believe in that Designer you complain about, you've got nothing to worry about. If God were an evil god, he would have just left us to die without any hope. It's not his fault some people reject Him. He's done everything outside of take away our free will to convince us. Would you rather he made us robots with no choice but to believe in our creator. If you reject God all your life and then get killed in a tsunami, you have no one else to blame for your eternity but yourself.

I'm not worried about anything and I'm not complaining at all. I'm quite pleased that the universe doesn't appear to be arranged in the way that the young woman thinks it is. If it were, it might be possible for devout radical islamists to actually convince allah that it's best if they be allowed to take over the world. What an awful mess that would be.

And if I get killed in a tsunami, I won't be blaming anybody for anything...I'll be dead.

[The Duke]

Could it be that it's not all about this world we live in today?

[skylight4u]

The bible says...the bible says....

Could the writings of ancient stories perhaps get lost in translation between languages and edits? Over thousands of years.

Between points of view.

Is the text of the bible so incredibly immaculate as to know all things? really?

[zoyd]

an early warning system is not a wise use of resources.

I don't know about that. How many potentially deadly tsunamis have you heard about crashing into California in the past.... I dunno, 100 years? But we have a warning system.

Many of those Asian countries depend upon the sea for their citizens' livelihood to a much larger extent than we do. Shouldn't they be a bit more worried about sea-related stuff of all measure? Shouldn't Krakatoa being situated nearby be reason enough to suggest that a large earthquake might be in the mix in their 100-year future? That kind of thinking is what bought us OUR warning system.

Prosperity has a HUGE effect on how civilizations deal with natural disasters. A HUGE effect. Look at how well Japan and, say, California, deal with earthquakes, as compared to ANY country without the onerous earthquake safety codes for building new structures. Compare our performance in major quakes, and it's simply no question that prosperous civs are far better equipped to deal with catastrophes of all measure.

WHEN the Big One hits in LA, you can bet that there will be plenty of imported water, medicine, resources, and aid of all measure being delivered here within hours. It will be amazing. It will not be a situation where people worry about starving to death, or even lacking good drinking water, DESPITE the fact that we live in a desert. Prosperous civs just have better infrastructure for this sort of thing.

Having a nice populace and an agrarian, 3rd world outlook on life is nice, but having a network of roads and infrastructure is a heck of a lot more valuable in a natural disaster.

[skylight4u]

Not to nitpick, but...it wasn't an apple and it wasn't a snake.

It depends who you are talking to.

[fr_freak]

Do we really want to think of ourselves as inhabitants of a universe created and ruled by a deity which operates in the way this young woman seems to think, a deity which, seemingly on a whim, allows over 100,000 people to perish in truly horrible ways, but protects others from harm because of prayer interventions and the like?

If I thought our universe worked this way, I'd be disappointed in its design.

Would that design really be any worse than a world where we are all here merely by some cosmic accident, where there is no Creator, and where all the suffering we do is merely a result of random events (bad luck)? What would be the point of remaining alive? If someone were in a car accident tomorrow, and ended up paralyzed at the age of 20, would it be more comforting to know that it was simply bad luck, and that all of those sorrowful years spent since then amounted to nothing, and served nothing?

Whether there is a Creator or not, most people endure some pretty dark days in their lives, maybe even dark enough to make them question whether remaining alive is worth the price. There may be a few in this world who live lives without significant pain, but I think I have yet to meet one. Wouldn't believing in a divine purpose make it somewhat easier to bear? A universe without a Creator means that everything we do and suffer is for nothing.

[Giliad]

The Bible is more reliable than most historic documents you probably have no problem believing. We have thousands of manuscripts from as early as the 2rd century. Perhaps you should educate yourself a bit on the transmission of the Bible before you start bashing Christians as if they're ignorant. I'm sure it makes you feel better about your eternal situation, but it's rude and makes you look uneducated.

[snarks_when_bored]

For 'melt' you should've put 'melts' (Jimi wasn't that interested in subject-verb agreement). I'll let the other mis-spelling slide.

[seeking1tim611]

Interesting that you bring up Alaska because today some scientist at the US Geological Survey said that if an earthquake of this size hit on our coast where there is a fault line a tsunami would come and it would hit in less than 30 mins. Our deep sea radars would be of no use because it would be too close. Would we have 120,000 at least deaths? No, partially because our buildings are better constructed and partially because our beaches in that areas would be as densely populated.

[Tristram Shandy]

First, are you saying no one has done anything wrong or sinned since Adam and Eve?

A punishment, to be just, must be proportionate to the the offense and inflicted only upon the evildoer--not randomly. Ivan Karamazov's question remains: Why must children suffer? What have they done? Is their merciful, just, and loving Father punishing them?

There are no "rituals" you have to do to be saved.

That depends on which version of Christianity one subscribes to. According to the Catholic church there most certainly are! (Related question: Why can't God communicate with us so we can understand exactly what he wants? Why can't he write more like Hemingway, less like Faulkner & Kafka?)

But that's not what saved you.

Saved? I haven't done anything that warrants eternal punishment! The vast majority of human lives amount to so little...they deserve neither rewards nor punishments and certainly not eternal ones.

[shuckmaster]

I'm with you bro