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No, It Wasn't French vs. Indians
The New York Times ^ | January 1, 2005 | GLENN COLLINS

Posted on 01/01/2005 6:44:12 AM PST by Pharmboy

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To: woofer
Battle of San Carlos

Yes, I've read about it. The British attacked St. Louis which was Spanish territory then and were repulsed.

Not much of a battle compared to Yorktown or Bunker Hill.

101 posted on 01/01/2005 12:24:08 PM PST by Missouri
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To: Pharmboy

OK, I will when in the vicinity, although Syracuse is not my favorite place (in fact the whole state is not either)


102 posted on 01/01/2005 12:35:33 PM PST by Paulus Invictus ( No soy anti-inmigrante! Soy anti-inmigrante ilegal!)
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To: Pharmboy
I hadn't heard of the town of Fonda before but I will check with my father to see what he knows of the town. Dad has been making a genealogical study of our family history. You might have put us on the trail of another ancestor.
103 posted on 01/01/2005 12:39:49 PM PST by redheadtoo
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To: mewzilla
They've done a wonderful job with the restoration of Fort Ticonderoga.
It's well worth a visit.


My parents made a point of taking the family there when we made a long
road trip from Oklahoma to visit relatives in Montreal.

Definitely a MUST-SEE for the kids (of all ages) if they get in the vicinity.
104 posted on 01/01/2005 12:46:32 PM PST by VOA
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To: nathanbedford
I am unfamiliar with incidents of the Iroquois engaging in cannibalism against European settlers, most history books note that particular ritualistic practice ended with their forming the Five Nations Confederacy circa 1570.

-btw Are you familiar with the term 'Drawing and Quartering' ? It was quite popular in Europe around the same time period, as was the practice of placing heads on spikes, and burning folks at the stake.

Cheers.

105 posted on 01/01/2005 1:02:14 PM PST by mac_truck (Aide toi et dieu l’aidera)
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To: mac_truck
temple steps to be consumed by the congregation. Over several centuries, French and English explorers and missionaries wrote a steady volume of literature concerning first accounts of Eastern United States Indians and their cannibalistic practices. Most noted for their savagery were the Iroquois and related tribes, who tortured, killed and ate large numbers of their captives. In the Mohawk language, "Iroquois" translates as "eaters of men." In some of these chilling accounts, people were literally eaten alive. In a letter dated August 25, 1682, Father Jean De Lamberville recounts: "The great success that God is pleased to grant to the weapons of the Iroquois makes them very proud, brave and enterprising. Last year they brought 700 Illinois captives all of whom they keep alive. They killed and ate over 600 others on the spot, without counting those whom they burned along the road. They saved the children who could live without the milk of their mothers whom they had killed; but the others were cruelly roasted and devoured. It is related that they tied living men and women to stakes, and, as fast as their flesh became roasted, they cut it off, and ate it." This was not an exceptional report but one of many mentioning cannibalism, a common practice for the time. Many of the missionaries were in the New World expressly to baptize the captives (and thus collect their souls) before they were killed and eaten. Large numbers of these European clergy died in this effort, as the Indians killed them as wantonly as their neighbors. http://www.csasi.org/2001_july_journal/cannibalism_in_the_prehistoric_pg-108.htm Happy New Year
106 posted on 01/01/2005 1:36:51 PM PST by nathanbedford
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To: redheadtoo

And, it's not that far from Schenectady.


107 posted on 01/01/2005 1:38:43 PM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: Paulus Invictus
Those are red counties...just the cities are blue-land. I lived upstate NY for 8 years...plenty of good people.

And, good luck at the casinos. Even though the Oneidas were (and are) our friends, I don't mind if you take some of their coin...

108 posted on 01/01/2005 1:43:42 PM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: mrsmith
The French were indeed the first enemy of the United States (not counting the indians). Under the Adams administration we fought what was called the "Quasi War" against them for authorizing privateers against our shipping.

And let's not forget "The XYZ Affair", also under President Adams. When the American deligation to France was told, in increasingly less and less uncertain terms that if they wanted any business started/continued/concluded the Americans had better wake up and pony-up more than a few,er, "inducements".

109 posted on 01/01/2005 1:49:14 PM PST by yankeedame
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To: Pharmboy

Wasn't the old film "Drums Along the Mohawk" (when I lived in Utica, NY they would have special showings) set in that period, not to mention "Last of the Mohicans"? It was indeed completely pivotal to English speaking America becoming more than a North American version of Chile, and for a host of reasons the "Seven Years War", "French and Indian War", or whatever anyone wants to call it led directly to our Revolution.


110 posted on 01/01/2005 1:54:37 PM PST by katana (Don't make homely babies with homely women. Drink responsibly.)
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To: Missouri
It seemed the the church had good intention's but it was the Indians destiny to lose the New World to the Europeans due to lack of technology and old hatreds between tribes.

The same is true of the British Raj in India as well: Better technology and ancient, deep rooted hatred between not only tribes/princelings, but between religious groups as well.

111 posted on 01/01/2005 1:56:19 PM PST by yankeedame
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To: TontoKowalski
...planting the seeds for Eminent Domain...

Eminent domain?? Did you mean Manifest Destiny or, perhaps, The Monroe Doctrine?

112 posted on 01/01/2005 2:00:09 PM PST by yankeedame ("Oh, I can take it but I'd much rather dish it out.")
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To: nathanbedford
" This was the ultimate punishment available in English law for men who had been convicted of High Treason. Women were burned at the stake instead, apparently for the sake of decency.

The full sentence passed upon those convicted of High Treason up to 1870 was as follows: That you be drawn on a hurdle to the place of execution where you shall be hanged by the neck and being alive cut down, your privy members shall be cut off and your bowels taken out and burned before you, your head severed from your body and your body divided into four quarters to be disposed of at the King’s pleasure.” So not for the feint hearted then!!

As you will see from the sentence it should properly be called drawing, hanging and quartering as the condemned was drawn to the place of execution tied to the hurdle which was dragged by a horse. This is confirmed by contemporary law books. Drawing does not refer to the removal of the intestines in this context and remained part of the sentence for High Treason long after the disemboweling and dismemberment had ceased. The hurdle was similar to a piece of fencing made from thin branches interwoven to form a panel to which the prisoner was tied to be dragged behind a horse to the place of execution. Once there, the prisoner(s) were hanged in the normal way (i.e. without a drop to ensure that the neck was not broken) but cut down whilst still conscious. The penis and testicles were cut off and the stomach was slit open. The intestines and heart were removed and burned before them. The other organs were torn out and finally the head was cut off and the body divided into four quarters. The head and quarters were parboiled to prevent them rotting too quickly and then displayed upon the city gates as a grim warning to all.

At some point in this agonising process the prisoner inevitably died of strangulation and/or haemorrhage and/or shock and damage to vital organs."

Perhaps after dismembering and filleting their prisoners the English lost their appetite to eat them.

Cheers.

113 posted on 01/01/2005 2:00:25 PM PST by mac_truck (Aide toi et dieu l’aidera)
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Comment #114 Removed by Moderator

To: Floyd R Turbo
I don't object to honesty. I object to blatant, disgusting bigotry, and the advocacy of genocide against an entire race of people.

Honesty is fine. Better that bigots come right out and say what's on their minds. Then no one is guessing.

Familiarize yourself with Edward Sheriff Curtis, Floyd, then come back and tell me Twain's Indian sounds anything like the culture documented in photographs by this remarkable man - whom I dare say immersed himself in American Indian culture far more than Mark Twain ever could have.

I have yet to view a Curtis photograph of a scrawny, dirty Indian holding his pants up with one hand, wearing a belt made of sardine cans.

P.S. Did you know the Iroquois developed their own constitution that influenced the content of ours?

115 posted on 01/01/2005 3:49:46 PM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (Governor Rossi was robbed.)
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet

You should be used to this sort of commentary on FR. I sure am.


116 posted on 01/01/2005 3:52:47 PM PST by cyborg (http://mentalmumblings.blogspot.com/)
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To: cyborg

Oh, I'm used to it, my friend. I just refuse to let it go unchallenged.


117 posted on 01/01/2005 3:55:26 PM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (Governor Rossi was robbed.)
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To: DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet

Yep I understand.


118 posted on 01/01/2005 3:59:04 PM PST by cyborg (http://mentalmumblings.blogspot.com/)
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To: Ditto

bump...i just love history.


119 posted on 01/01/2005 4:42:42 PM PST by SnarlinCubBear
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To: Pharmboy; redheadtoo
Adam Fonda had twin sons Henry Dowd Fonda and Dowd Henry Fonda

The community was named after Douw Fonda, settler who was scalped in an Indian raid

Maybe not a new ancestor but a derivative of the spelling of Dowd

Still cool just the same.

One of my early ancestors was killed by Indians in the Shenendoah. Also, a grandson of his fought at what some consider to be the first battle of the Revolution at Point Pleasant, VA (WV) against them in 1774.

The story is that this group of indians, lead by Chief Cornstalk, were sponsored by the Tory Gov. of VA, Dunmore, to take on the Virginia colonists. Dunmore and the colonist General Lewis, lead two columns up toward the Ohio to engage the Indians. At some point, the columns split-up with Dunmore taking a northern route.

Sometime after this, Lewis discovered that Dunmore was meeting with Cornstalk, ostensibly to hammer out a treaty.

Gen Lewis smelled a rat and disobeying Dunmore's orders to stand fast, advanced his column. At Point Pleasant they were attacked by Cornstalk's force.

Lewis' men won the battle. Supposedly, if they had not, then VA would have spent the Revolutionary War tied-up on her western frontier with Inidan attacks and thus unable to contribute troops to fight the British in the east.

120 posted on 01/01/2005 5:36:29 PM PST by VeniVidiVici (Got Wood?)
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Comment #121 Removed by Moderator

To: nathanbedford
but the objective truth remains that these people were Aborigines who engaged in the barbarous practices I have described in my previous post to a degree that surpassed the excesses of the English settlers.

Oh, of course, because the original settlers were just soooo nice. If you can name one instance where American Indian tribes used biological warfare against the settlers (such as the english did by deliberately providing indians with blankets as gifts, not mentioning that the 'gifts' were used by smallpox patients) or if you can name one time where an American Indian nation had a specific governmental policy of eradication of the settlers, then maybe I'll buy your version of events...

However, you'll never find any instance of genocide on the part of indians... and there is nothing more savage than that.

Thanks for playing.

122 posted on 01/01/2005 6:02:43 PM PST by Chad Fairbanks (I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass)
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To: Floyd R Turbo

Ok, so what. Mark Twain was well known as a writer of fiction. There are far more documented examples from far more credible sources that disagree with Twain.

American Indians are far from perfect, certainly - after all, we are human, too - but what Twain had to say was bulls**t.


123 posted on 01/01/2005 6:04:14 PM PST by Chad Fairbanks (I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass)
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To: Floyd R Turbo
I think Twain was referring primarily to the Plains Indians who I didn't know had any friends, especially among neighboring tribes or what was left of them after their savage massacres. If you check their long history of terrorism you might chill out and broaden your thinking a bit.

When you say massacres, are you referring to Wounded Knee, or maybe the Washita River, or maybe Chivington or maybe one of any of dozens of other instances? Or are you speaking of inter-tribal warfare, which was pretty much just like it was throughout Europe for centuries?

124 posted on 01/01/2005 6:10:20 PM PST by Chad Fairbanks (I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass)
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Comment #125 Removed by Moderator

To: Pharmboy

Actually, we might be better off if the French had conquered New York.


126 posted on 01/01/2005 6:14:13 PM PST by jackbill
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To: Floyd R Turbo
Sorry, I had relatives who were victims of the plains indians in the late 1800s, and they were quite innocent of anything but trying to farm and survive and feed their families on otherwise unused land in southern Minnesota.

So, I'm guessing that no innocent indians, who just wanted to live in peace and be left alone, were ever killed by the white man, then?

FR is not a good place to try and revise history.

I'm not revising anything. YOu just seem to have some vested interest in denying that Whites could be just as "brutal" as American Indians. Why is that?

127 posted on 01/01/2005 6:16:23 PM PST by Chad Fairbanks (I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass)
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To: jackbill

Low blow...LOL!


128 posted on 01/01/2005 6:17:49 PM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: Floyd R Turbo

And just out of curiosity, did they get caught up in that whole Leech Lake thing? Ya know, where the whites spend several years daming up the mississippi and missouri rivers, flooding indian villages and destroying their crops, causing some violent encounters? Or was it something else?


129 posted on 01/01/2005 6:24:42 PM PST by Chad Fairbanks (I'd like to find your inner child and kick its little ass)
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To: Pharmboy
To Dr. Anderson, without the French and Indian War, "it is impossible for me to imagine that the American Revolution would have taken place," he said.

I don't remember particularly learning about it in school. I've read books and seen movies since then that have given me the info. It's a fascinating time in the pre-history of our country.

130 posted on 01/01/2005 6:27:28 PM PST by SuziQ (It's the most wonderful time of the year!)
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To: Chad Fairbanks

I really can't believe how scrawny and dirty this cowardly man (Chief Joseph) is. Probably just got back from the saloon, or from begging (along with all his relatives) for some white guy's food. The question is, where is his sardine can necklace, and which hand is he holding his pants up with? < /extremesarcasm >

P.S. Some people have a perceived score to settle, it seems.

131 posted on 01/01/2005 6:47:00 PM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (Governor Rossi was robbed.)
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To: VOA

They really have done a terrific job with the museum. We got a really great lunch at the restaurant too, and what a gorgeous view :)


132 posted on 01/02/2005 6:04:53 AM PST by mewzilla
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To: VeniVidiVici
Maybe not a new ancestor but a derivative of the spelling of Dowd

My father, the genealogist in the family, has often been frustrated by the different spellings for names. But, it wasn't until Noah Webster published his dictionary that spelling was standardized and since most people of the time were illiterate spelling didn't matter much.
133 posted on 01/02/2005 12:31:39 PM PST by redheadtoo (Be sure to use your spell checker)
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To: redheadtoo
My father, the genealogist in the family, has often been frustrated by the different spellings for names

Me too. Drives me nuts. Several ancestor names that are the same in my tree:

Sillings
Silings
Silling
Sillin

Stover
Stoever
Stober
Stoeber

Still, it's fun.

134 posted on 01/02/2005 2:04:24 PM PST by VeniVidiVici (Got Wood?)
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To: Pharmboy; 4ConservativeJustices; Mudboy Slim; stainlessbanner

Thank you for posting this article. The Seven Years War is one of the most important and overlooked periods in our history.


135 posted on 01/03/2005 6:42:29 AM PST by HenryLeeII (Democrats have helped kill more Americans than the Soviets and Nazis combined!)
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To: Ditto; Pharmboy; 4ConservativeJustices
The first of many times over the next 30 years when he [George Washington] would be under fire, yet never wounded.

Truly a man of Providence! He came through battles with numerous bullet holes through his coat, had multiple horses shot out from under him in a single battle; and even his "mistake" in opening fire on the French without provocation, initiated a series of events that led to the French losing their grip on the future U.S. and the American Revolution.

136 posted on 01/03/2005 6:45:37 AM PST by HenryLeeII (Democrats have helped kill more Americans than the Soviets and Nazis combined!)
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To: Pharmboy; 4ConservativeJustices; Ditto
When George Washington served during this war as a major and colonel in the Virginia militia, he was still subordinate to any commissioned officer in the regular British army, a fact that grated on him to no end. So, years later at Yorktown, when Cornwallis refused to surrender in person and sent his second-in-command in his place, Washington returned the snub by sending his, General Benjamin Lincoln, to accept the surrender.

Also, as a true measure of the man's intellect, he learned lessons from this war that the British failed to grasp during the next. Washington had no military experience when his half-brother, Lawrence, died. Washington was 20 at the time, rode to Williamsburg to meet the governor, and talked his way into filling Lawrence's post as the adjutant-general of the colony's militia. He read any books available and interviewed any military man he could find, and basically taught himself without any formal military training. During the Seven Years War Washington learned the lessons of continental-scale warfare and put them to use during the Revolution. So, even though he only won three of the nine major battles he commanded our army in, he was able to keep the army together and lead us through a grueling war of attrition against the most powerful army in the world.

137 posted on 01/03/2005 6:56:09 AM PST by HenryLeeII (Democrats have helped kill more Americans than the Soviets and Nazis combined!)
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To: HenryLeeII

Thanks fer the link...I'd never really given the F&I War much thought, but this was interesting...MUD


138 posted on 01/03/2005 6:57:44 AM PST by Mudboy Slim (Happy New Year, FReeper FRiends!!)
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To: HenryLeeII

I worked with a Texas physician who is a direct descendant of Gen. Benjamin Lincoln...after we finished the job we gave her a framed print of Lincoln taking the sword.


139 posted on 01/03/2005 7:45:58 AM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: nathanbedford

I would call them freedom fighters. The year 1492 was the Native american's 9/11. Before you go calling Indians names, just remember your ancestors were the same way. They were barbarians who just had an edge in organized violence. As a matter of fact, every people group had cannibals too. Just reference the Donner part and Jefferey Dahmer. Have a nice day.


140 posted on 03/29/2005 12:29:58 PM PST by Redcitizen (One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter)
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To: RaceBannon; Restorer

Your history books were written by white men. Indians did not write their side of the story down. There is a bias by the authors of your books. Books can be made to say anything.


141 posted on 03/29/2005 12:55:00 PM PST by Redcitizen (One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter)
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To: Redcitizen

I'm (more or less) on your side on this one. French and Indian atrocities have been remembered and nursed in America.

English/American atrocities against the other two groups have been forgotten.

The same thing is true of Indians, of course. They tend to remember the atrocities committed against them, not those they committed.

I believe it's called human nature.


142 posted on 03/29/2005 1:08:22 PM PST by Restorer
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To: Floyd R Turbo; DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet

Okay, so he was prejudiced. At least he was honest.


143 posted on 03/29/2005 1:35:45 PM PST by Redcitizen (One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter)
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To: Redcitizen

So, the Indians would have no bias?

Besides, which Indians? The ones who sided with the French or the ones who sided with the English?

Or the ones who wanted to stay out of it?

So, which ones are you referring to?

Or do you eman the fictional Indian who never went to war or ever did anything wrong and ate clean, pure water and was at one with nature?


144 posted on 03/29/2005 2:18:05 PM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: Restorer
The same thing is true of Indians, of course. They tend to remember the atrocities committed against them, not those they committed.

I can't speak for any of the other American Indians around here, but my people remember both those we committed, and those against us...

145 posted on 03/29/2005 2:19:58 PM PST by Chad Fairbanks (Sure you can trust the government... just ask an Indian...)
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To: RaceBannon; Redcitizen
Or do you eman the fictional Indian who never went to war or ever did anything wrong and ate clean, pure water and was at one with nature?

Good God, I hope not!!!

146 posted on 03/29/2005 2:20:49 PM PST by Chad Fairbanks (Sure you can trust the government... just ask an Indian...)
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To: RaceBannon

Never said we didn't have a bias.It is human nature. Just pointing out the fact that the books of which you are so fond of is slanted toward the English point of view.
Take your pick of any group.Whichever one you pick, the end results are the same. The history books are written by the white man.


147 posted on 03/29/2005 4:25:48 PM PST by Redcitizen (One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter)
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To: Redcitizen
No offense, but I also have books which speak well of Indians, written by white men, but they still document the savage nature of the civilization that was the American Indian.

If I ever stick to one point, it will be that today's American Indians are trying to re-write their own history to make it sound like they were pure souls, when the reality is they were savages who smeared feces in their hair, killed people at whim, tortured their victims by slicing them open and sticking hot coals in their wounds, killed small babies by swinging the babies by the feet and smashing the baby's head against a tree...

That is something that cannot be imagined away unless you refuse to write about it, and today's American Indian refuses to write about it.

The first Indian wars were slaughters of white settlers in New England by Indians, forcing the white men to go to war to stay alive. AND, that 50% of the Indians alive then helped the white men kill off the tribes that were warring against the white men because those same warring tribes were attacking and killing other Indian tribes.

Today's American Indians refuse to write about that.

When today's American Indian start to write the truth about their history, and include all of it and not just the broken promises of a small number of white leaders once the white leaders were a majority, then you will have my respect. Until then, people need to know how vicious and brutal the American Indians were against the minority white settlers, and how they immediately killed all African slaves they captured because they thought that black men and women were from the devil.
148 posted on 03/29/2005 7:33:36 PM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: nathanbedford

Of the books I have read, I dont remember any cases of canibalism by Amrican Indians.

Gross stuff, sure, but I dont remember any canabilism.


149 posted on 03/29/2005 7:36:58 PM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: Chad Fairbanks

Concerning bio-warfare, how many times?

And when?

Jeffrey Amherst is a singular incident, while the attacks on New England farmhouses were in the hundreds.

NO comparison.


150 posted on 03/29/2005 7:41:12 PM PST by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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