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No, It Wasn't French vs. Indians
The New York Times ^ | January 1, 2005 | GLENN COLLINS

Posted on 01/01/2005 6:44:12 AM PST by Pharmboy

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To: Restorer
This was a war to see who would dominate North America, the British or the French. It was not a war between absolute good and absolute evil.

Wherever the French are involved, we're talking absolute evil!

51 posted on 01/01/2005 9:05:21 AM PST by AmishDude (Official pseudo-Amish mathematician of FreeRepublic.)
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To: wtc911
No, it is time we unburdened ourselves of this utterly fictitious notion of the noble savage. While the white man was not free of evil, the politically correct version of frontier history now being sold is dangerous and misleading. As the descendant of a white settler murdered by the Indians in this French and Indian War, I am happy to state the reality of our Aborigines without embarrassment.

I do not deny that the red race produced admirable examples such as Pocahontas, Sacajawea, Chief Joseph and Washaiki, but the objective truth remains that these people were Aborigines who engaged in the barbarous practices I have described in my previous post to a degree that surpassed the excesses of the English settlers.


52 posted on 01/01/2005 9:09:12 AM PST by nathanbedford
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To: Pharmboy
The war continued in Europe, Africa and Asia until 1763, when the Treaty of Paris formally concluded hostilities. France lost all of its colonies in North America to the English, except for two coastal islands.

Really? Then I guess the Louisiana Purchase never happened.

53 posted on 01/01/2005 9:09:41 AM PST by Labyrinthos
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To: wtc911

Rodgers was a Loyalist during the RevWar and partly responsible for having Nathan Hale captured and hung as a spy. But, he was a great fighter.


54 posted on 01/01/2005 9:13:00 AM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: Labyrinthos

I think the French acquired that land from the Spanish in 1800. So, their statement would be correct.


55 posted on 01/01/2005 9:15:14 AM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: Labyrinthos
Really? Then I guess the Louisiana Purchase never happened.

That territory went to the Spanish in 1763 due to the treaty. Napolean Bonapate got it back about 1800 when he put his brother up as ruler of Spain. Then, we bought it in 1804 off of Napolean.

56 posted on 01/01/2005 9:16:55 AM PST by Missouri
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To: Missouri; Pharmboy

Thanks for the history lesson. I should have looked up the facts before I shot my mouth off.


57 posted on 01/01/2005 9:18:53 AM PST by Labyrinthos
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To: Pharmboy

The movement for American independence, not strong anywhere before the F&I War, was given a powerful kick-start by the contempt with which colonial officers and soldiers were treated by their British counterparts sent to North America to oversee things. Washington himself politicked for a regular commission in the Army during and after the war but he and his contemporaries were treated like oafs and bumpkins by the lace-cuff Redcoat set. Well, if that's how they really feel, we'll get our own damned army! And before you know it, it's 1775 on Cambridge Common....


58 posted on 01/01/2005 9:23:32 AM PST by Snickersnee (Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket???)
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To: Pharmboy

The movement for American independence, not strong anywhere before the F&I War, was given a powerful kick-start by the contempt with which colonial officers and soldiers were treated by their British counterparts sent to North America to oversee things. Washington himself politicked for a regular commission in the Army during and after the war but he and his contemporaries were treated like oafs and bumpkins by the lace-cuff Redcoat set. Well, if that's how they really feel, we'll get our own damned army! And before you know it, it's 1775 on Cambridge Common....


59 posted on 01/01/2005 9:25:40 AM PST by Snickersnee (Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket???)
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To: Labyrinthos
I've been visiting the St. Charles Missouri riverfront lately and there is a quite a bit of frontier history there (Lewis and Clark's expedition) . Even though there wasn't any fighting here because of the French and Indian War, the territory around here was in a state of flux due to this war and others.

They have a "Frenchtown" section which I find fascinating. Some of the buildings there may be about 200 years old. Almost colonial.

60 posted on 01/01/2005 9:27:13 AM PST by Missouri
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To: Missouri

Isn't there a French area in St. Louis also?


61 posted on 01/01/2005 9:30:40 AM PST by Labyrinthos
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To: Pharmboy
Now how did the French end up in New Orleans after we kicked them out of the North (and how did we end up with it)?
Good history! ;-)

What was the Louisiana Purchase?

At the time of the presidency of Thomas Jefferson, the United States was surrounded by alien territory. On the north, Canada remained in the hands of the English. On the south, Florida, which had been ceded to England in 1763, captured in part by the Spanish allies of the United States in 1781, and re-ceded to Spain in 1783, bounded the States from the Atlantic to the Mississippi. Louisiana, embracing the whole Mississippi Valley, and extending indefinitely westward, remained French territory after the close of the French and Indian War. In 1762 it was secretly transferred to Spain, though open possession was not given till 1769. Meanwhile, in 1763, Great Britain obtained by treaty that portion lying east of the Mississippi, from its source to the river Iberville. In 1783 this territory was ceded to the United States by the treaty of peace with England. All the territory west of the Mississippi, and on the east from the 31st parallel of latitude to the Gulf, remained in the hands of Spain.

No sooner had American settlements extended to the region of the Mississippi and its eastern affluents than the importance of having free use of this river as a channel of transportation to the sea was strongly felt. This sentiment intensified as the settlements increased and the Spanish authorities manifested a hostile policy. That a foreign power should restrict the use of the mouth of such a river as the Mississippi was intolerable, and had it not been ceded peacefully it must eventually have been taken by force. From McMaster's admirable "History of the People of the United States" we select an account of the acquisition of this vast and valuable territory.]

ON October first, 1800, by the secret treaty of San Ildefonso, Spain gave back to France that province of Louisiana which, in 1762, France had given to her. It was long before the existence of this treaty was known; but the moment it was known Jefferson saw most clearly that trouble with France was not at an end. There was, he said, one spot on the face of the earth so important to the United States that whoever held it was, for that very reason, naturally and forever our enemy; and that spot was New Orleans. He could not, therefore, see it transferred to France but with deep regret. The day she took possession of the city the ancient friendship between her and the United States ended; alliance with Great Britain became necessary, and the sentence that was to keep France below low-water mark became fixed. This day seemed near at hand, for in November, 1802, word came that an expedition was making all haste to cross the ocean and occupy Louisiana.

Meanwhile, the Spanish intendant of the province put forth a proclamation, closed the navigation of the Mississippi to American citizens, forbade all trade, and took away the right of deposit at New Orleans. Protected by this right, the inhabitants of Kentucky and Ohio had for seven years past been floating tobacco and flour, bacon and hams, down the Mississippi in rude arks, and depositing them in the warehouses of New Orleans, there to await the arrival of the sloops and scows to carry them to the West Indies, or to points along the Atlantic coast. The intendant could, at any time, shift the place of deposit; but, by the terms of the treaty of 1795, some convenient port near the mouth of the river must always be open for the deposit of goods and produce. In this respect, therefore, the treaty had been violated; for, when New Orleans was shut, no other town was opened.

The state of affairs here indicated was earnestly debated in Congress, and a resolution passed which, while not accusing Spain, declared that the rights of navigation and deposit should be maintained.

Jefferson was now free to act without fear of meddling from the House, and he speedily did so. The Senate, in a special message, was informed that he had not been idle; that such measures had been promptly taken as seemed likely to bring a friendly settlement about, and that the purpose of these measures was the buying of so much territory on the east bank of the river as would put at rest forever the vexed question of the use of its mouth. His confidence in the ability of the minister at the court of France to accomplish this was unlimited. Yet he could not but believe that the end would be hastened by sending to his aid a man fresh from the United States and bearing with him a just and lively sense of the feeling late events had aroused in the great mass of the people. He therefore nominated James Monroe to be minister extraordinary and plenipotentiary to France, and minister extraordinary and plenipotentiary to Spain; for, Louisiana not having been actually transferred to France, it seemed proper that his Catholic majesty should also be consulted. The Senate confirmed the nomination, and gave Monroe full power, in conjunction with Livingston in France and Pinckney in Spain, to frame any treaty or convention that extended and secured the rights of the United States on the Mississippi, and set apart two millions of dollars to be used, it was understood, for the purchase of the island of New Orleans.

The Federalists in Congress strongly opposed these measures, and offered resolutions tending towards war with Spain. They declared that the free navigation of the river was a clear right of the United States, and that interference with it by Spain was a hostile aggression. They demanded that the President should take possession of some fit place of deposit, and that, if necessary, fifty thousand militia should be called out, and five millions of dollars appropriated for this purpose. These resolutions were opposed and voted down by the Republican party, but in their place a bill was passed authorizing the President to call out a provisional army of eighty thousand militia, and to spend twenty-five thousand dollars in building arsenals in the West.

For the troops the President had no need. The Republicans were right, and, in a few months, far more was secured by negotiation than the Federalists had ever expected to obtain by violence and the use of arms. For months past Livingston had been trying to persuade the First Consul to sell a part of Louisiana to the United States. He begged the Spanish minister to hinder the transfer of the district to France; for, till the transfer was made, the colonists Napoleon was bent on sending to America were not likely to sail. Again and again he demanded a speedy settlement of the debt due to American merchants, and urged the benefits France would derive by parting with a piece of her ancient soil. Not a word came in reply. The man through whose hands his notes all passed was Talleyrand, who still held under Napoleon the same place he once held under the five Directors. Change of master was the only change that able and unprincipled minister had undergone. He was still the treacherous, grasping, ambitious knave of 1797. To Livingston he was all graciousness, but not a word of the American minister's notes reached the First Consul that Talleyrand did not approve. To sell Louisiana was not the wish of Talleyrand. He would see France once more in possession of her old domain, firmly planted on American soil, controlling the Mississippi, setting bounds to the United States, threatening Canada, and, it might be in the near future, planting the tricolor on the walls of that great fortress from which England had pulled down the lilies of France.

It is idle to speculate what might have been the destiny of our country had Louisiana become permanently a possession of France. The thing was not to be Convinced that Talleyrand was tricky, Livingston passed him by and wrote directly to the man whose will was the will of France. Citizen First Consul was asked if the French did not intend to pay their just debts. He was reminded that the Board of Accounts had liquidated and given certificates for about one-quarter of the debt, that on these certificates the American merchants had raised small sums to enable them to live, and that, on a sudden, while the Board went on liquidating, the certificates ceased to be given. He was told of the feeling aroused in the United States by the change about to take place in the ownership of Louisiana. He was asked to sell so much of the territory as lay south of latitude thirty-one, from the Mississippi to the Perdido, and so much as, west of the Mississippi, lay north of the Arkansas River. Thus would the United States secure the mouths of the rivers flowing from her territory to the Mexican gulf. Thus would France have a barrier placed between her and the possessions of her most ancient foe Was not this to be considered? The cupodity of Britain knew no bounds. The Cape, Malta, Egypt, had already awakened her avarice. Should she turn her arms westward, a struggle for Louisiana would at once begin. Of what use could the province be to France? To enable her to command the gulf, supply her islands, and give an outlet to her surplus population. To scatter population over a boundless region was, therefore, bad policy: the true policy was to concentrate and keep it near the sea. The country south of the Arkansas could well maintain a colony of fifteen millions of souls. Could France keep more in subjection? Ought not faraway colonies to be moderate in size? Would rich and prosperous settlements up the Missouri River always be content to pay allegiance to the distant ruler of France?

These memorials brought a speedy reply. Livingston was assured that the First Consul would see to it that the debts were paid, and would send a minister to the United States with full power to act. The minister was to have been General Bernadotte; but on this mission he was destined never to depart. In March the quarrel with England concerning Malta grew serious. "I must," said Napoleon to Lord Whitworth, in the presence of the assembled ministers of Europe, "I must either have Malta or war." New combinations were forming against him in Europe; all England was loudly demanding that Louisiana should be attacked, and, lest it should be taken from him, he determined to sell it to the United States.

April eleventh Talleyrand asked Livingston for an offer for Louisiana entire. The island of New Orleans and West Florida, he was told, were wanted, and no more. This much sold, what remained would, he asserted, be of small value. He would therefore like to know what price the United States would give for all. Livingston thought twenty millions of francs, and Talleyrand departed, protesting the sum was far too small.

The next day Monroe reached Paris, and the day after Barbe-Marbois, Minister of the Treasury, called. Marbois astonished Livingston by declaring that one hundred millions of francs and the payment of the debts due American citizens was the price of Louisiana. This would bring the cost to one hundred and twenty-five millions, for at twenty-five millions of francs Livingston estimated the debts. He pronounced the price exorbitant; Marbois admitted that it was, and asked to take back to St. Cloud an offer of eighty millions of francs, including twenty millions for the debts. Some higgling now took place; but on these terms the purchase was effected by the three instruments dated April thirtieth, 1803.

These were, a treaty of cession, an instrument arranging the mode of payment, and one treating of the debts, their character, and the method of their settlement.

Jefferson was greatly puzzled when these three documents reached his hand. He had offered to buy an island for a dock-yard and the place of deposit; he was offered a magnificent domain. He had been authorized to expend two millions of dollars; the sum demanded was fifteen. As a strict constructionist he could not, and for a while he did not, consider the purchase of foreign territory as a constitutional act. But when he thought of the evils that would follow if Louisiana remained with France, and of the blessings that would follow if Louisiana came to the United States, his common sense got the better of his narrow political scruples, and he soon found a way of escape. He would accept the treaty, summon Congress, urge the House and Senate to perfect the purchase, and trust to the Constitution being amended so as to make the purchase legal.

A sharp debate in Congress, ensued, the old Federal party strongly opposing the consummation of the purchase. The enormous increase the purchase would make in the national debt became a favorite theme, and every effort was made by writers and printers to show the people what a stupendous sum fifteen millions of dollars was.

Fifteen millions of dollars! they would exclaim. The sale of a wilderness has not usually commanded a price so high. Ferdinand Gorges received but twelve hundred and fifty pounds sterling for the province of Maine. William Penn gave for the wilderness that now bears his name but a trifle over five thousand pounds. Fifteen millions of dollars! A breath will suffice to pronounce the words. A few strokes of the pen will express the sum on paper. But not one man in a thousand has any conception of the magnitude of the amount. Weight it, and there will be four hundred and thirty-three tons of solid silver. Load it into wagons, and there will be eight hundred and sixty-six of them. Place the wagons in a line, giving two rods to each and they will cover a distance of five and one-third miles. Hire a laborer to shovel it into the carts, and, though he load sixteen each day, he will not finish the work in two months. Stack it up dollar on dollar, and, supposing nine to make an inch, the pile will be more than three miles high.. All the gold and all the silver coin in the United States would, if collected, fall vastly short of such a sum. We must, therefore, create a stock, and for fifteen years to come pay two thousand four hundred and sixty-five dollars interest each day. Invest the principal as a school fund, and the interest will support, forever, eighteen hundred free schools, allowing fifty scholars and five hundred dollars to each school. For whose benefit is the purchase made? The South and West. Will they pay a share of the debt? No, for the tax on whiskey has been removed.

Statistics, most happily, were of no avail. The mass of the people pronounced the purchase a bargain. The Senate, on October nineteenth, ratified the and conventions; the ratification of Napoleon was already in the hands of the French charge, and on October twenty-first Jefferson informed Congress that ratifications had that day been exchanged. On November tenth the act creating the eleven millions two hundred and fifty thousand dollars of stock called for by the first convention was passed. On December twentieth, 1803, Louisiana was peaceably taken possession of by the United States.

Source: What was the Louisiana Purchase?

62 posted on 01/01/2005 9:31:17 AM PST by Tunehead54 (Repeal the 22nd Amendment!)
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To: AmishDude
Wherever the French are involved, we're talking absolute evil!

A bit over the top, maybe.

What I'm curious about is why the noble Englishmen would run them little Dutchmen out of New Amsterdam (New York) in the early 1600's?

63 posted on 01/01/2005 9:35:00 AM PST by Missouri
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To: Pharmboy

Here is a link for true portrayers of the F&I period, some of the people are dedicated even as to the type of thread, stitch, and buttons on their clothing. All weapons and accoutrements are also true as to the best researched information available.

http://www.historicaltrekking.com/mb/list.php?f=1.

http://www.historicaltrekking.com/index.shtml


64 posted on 01/01/2005 9:35:10 AM PST by Ursus arctos horribilis ("It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees!" Emiliano Zapata 1879-1919)
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To: Pharmboy
We should know more about this. Did the English intend to take away the French colonies in America going into the war? Or was the fall of French America something that grew out of the war itself, and the successful initiatives of the British commanders (the same questions apply to the British victories in India at about the same time)? Often we see a secret plan at work, when in fact, what happens is simply the result of chaos, confusion, and the success of smaller, more limited plans.

The English assumption that the Americans had to be taxed to pay for the victory is worth thinking about? The causes of the war must have been in Europe, and the colonists weren't asked about whether they wanted to get involved. It's a strange father and son situation. The father's going to make the son work and pay for the pony (new conquered territories), but the son didn't ask for the pony, and feels that he already contributed his share to buying him (wartime losses). The pony is kept with the people who owned it (Indians) and the son can't ride (settle) it, so he feels some resentment.

The British won, but the victory had a lot to do with their losing America a decade or two later. What would have happened if they'd lost? Could the French and Indians have held on to what they had? Would Americans have been contented to stay under the British flag, if Parliament didn't try to tax them? And if Parliament did try to tax them for defense from the victorious French and Indians would the colonists have resented it so much? Maybe they would have taken the initiative to organize their own military forces, rather than rely on Parliament. If the American Revolution had never happened would we look more like Canada today? I know such a question can never be solved, but it's a day off, so ...

65 posted on 01/01/2005 9:38:16 AM PST by x
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To: x

The English did not start this conflict (at least not in North America). The French moved south from Canada and set up a fort in what is now Pittsburgh (Fort Duquense). Gov. Dinwiddie in Virginia sent a young colonial militiaman with assorted colonists to tell the French to get out. The young colonel was Washington and the rest is history.


66 posted on 01/01/2005 9:44:43 AM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: Labyrinthos
Isn't there a French area in St. Louis also?

No. Not much is left from that era. The earliest settlers used timber for most of their structures so over the years they've disappeared. The big city's encroachment has wiped out a lot of history here. Downtown St.Charles is much smaller and intimate. The folks who restored the riverfront there did a great job.

67 posted on 01/01/2005 9:52:29 AM PST by Missouri
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To: Pharmboy

I am teaching "The Last of the Mohicans" this coming semester and Cooper of course sets the story during the Wars.

The eponymous film brilliantly portrays the times as well.

Thansk for the article and resources.


68 posted on 01/01/2005 9:56:50 AM PST by eleni121 (Xronia polla! 4 more years and then 4 more again.)
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To: TontoKowalski
...planting the seeds for Eminent Domain...

I think you mean "manifest destiny."

69 posted on 01/01/2005 9:59:06 AM PST by Future Snake Eater ("Stupid grandma leaver-outers!"--Tom Servo)
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To: Pharmboy

It's kind of funny but I always found the European theatre od the Seven Years' War more fascinating than the American.


70 posted on 01/01/2005 9:59:57 AM PST by Chi-townChief
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To: eleni121

I dont like the comments by Day-Lewis about the Yanquis giving whiskey to the Indians, that was outlawed by the governments by the time period of that movie, so, he indirectly slandered the whole, instead of attacking the few.

Nor did his comment on the killings of the French and English while Indians didn't do such thngs, that is a lie, the Indians were much worse.

If I knew you I would loan you some books written by people of that period, but these are too rare, I cant chance it! :)


71 posted on 01/01/2005 10:00:47 AM PST by RaceBannon (Jesus: Born of the Jews, through the Jews, for the sins of the World!)
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To: Pharmboy

The French were also going to invade New England but a major storm swamped their boats and sunk many of them.


72 posted on 01/01/2005 10:01:53 AM PST by RaceBannon (Jesus: Born of the Jews, through the Jews, for the sins of the World!)
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To: Future Snake Eater
Yep, you're right. I did intend to say "Manifest Destiny." There's been something else going on in my life right now that has involved the phrase "eminent domain" and that contributed to the slip.

Forgive the error, and thanks for the correction.

73 posted on 01/01/2005 10:03:40 AM PST by TontoKowalski
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To: RaceBannon

I was referring to the non politically biased aspects of the film and I agree that the Hollywood machine and its silly leftist tools tends to corrupt history.

I am fully aware of the facts you speak of and do my best to bring them to the attention of my students.


74 posted on 01/01/2005 10:06:40 AM PST by eleni121 (Xronia polla! 4 more years and then 4 more again.)
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To: Chi-townChief

Hmm...I willhave to look into that. Thanks, chief.


75 posted on 01/01/2005 10:07:48 AM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: RaceBannon

I did not know that--thanks.


76 posted on 01/01/2005 10:09:15 AM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: Pharmboy
An ancestor of mine fought in the Battle of Schenectady during the French and Indian war. Schenectady, New York was a small frontier settlement of less than three hundred people when it was attacked. Originally, the French had wanted to attack Albany but their Indian allies didn't want to travel that far so Schenectady was chosen as the new target.

This battle is all but forgotten but if it had not taken place I would not be here. My ancestor lost most of his family that day, including his wife. After the attack he married the surviving widow of another settler and I am a descendant of that marriage.
77 posted on 01/01/2005 10:09:48 AM PST by redheadtoo
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To: eleni121

You sound like a great teacher and your students are lucky to have you. All the best to you in the new year.


78 posted on 01/01/2005 10:10:43 AM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: RaceBannon
Like most movies out of Hollywood, they had to put a liberal spin on something.

I did think it was an OK movie showing a set of complex relationships between the Native American tribes, French, English, and Colonials.

It was all over for Native American dominance over the Americas when the first Europeans arrived here with guns, horses, and diseases.

79 posted on 01/01/2005 10:11:43 AM PST by Missouri
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To: redheadtoo

Wow...what a story! I lived up there for 3 years...was friends with a psychologist of the Niskayuna schools...


80 posted on 01/01/2005 10:12:00 AM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: wtc911

heh


81 posted on 01/01/2005 10:12:06 AM PST by cyborg (http://mentalmumblings.blogspot.com/)
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To: TontoKowalski
There's been something else going on in my life right now that has involved the phrase "eminent domain"...

That doesn't sound good...

82 posted on 01/01/2005 10:16:34 AM PST by Future Snake Eater ("Stupid grandma leaver-outers!"--Tom Servo)
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To: Nowhere Man
I live in the Pittsburgh area too...Irwin, Westmoreland County. We have a local historical house (on the National registry) that still has 'Indian shutters' (to be closed when the Indians attacked the settlers). Fort Necessity (near Uniontown) has the fort walls still intact...and near my home is the Bushy Run Battlefield site. Alot of history here. Btw, alot of PA public school districts teach (in 4th or 5th grade) the French and Indian war as part of the history/geography ciriculum. So, once while playing Trivial Pursuit, a heated exchange occurred when the answer of 'French and Indian War' was given instead of 'Seven Year War.' (Both are correct...but it is known here at least as the French and Indian War).
83 posted on 01/01/2005 10:18:10 AM PST by PennsylvaniaMom (FreeMartha)
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To: Missouri
Wherever you find the French, you find evil. I firmly believe that Satan speaks through his nose. But you're probably right. Evil tends to be more tenacious than the French.

What I'm curious about is why the noble Englishmen would run them little Dutchmen out of New Amsterdam (New York) in the early 1600's?

The wooden shoes. They'll drive you crazy.

84 posted on 01/01/2005 10:20:07 AM PST by AmishDude (Official pseudo-Amish mathematician of FreeRepublic.)
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To: Pharmboy

Do the Oneidas have a casino yet? If so, where is it and is that the best way to support them? Where's the action and how much money should I invest at the poker tables?


85 posted on 01/01/2005 10:29:37 AM PST by Paulus Invictus ( No soy anti-inmigrante! Soy anti-inmigrante ilegal!)
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To: Pharmboy
Yes, it is quite a story. The death toll was incredible. My ancestor lost his wife, father, brother and his infant son in the attack. Accounts of the battle said the the baby's head was dashed against a wall.

Adam Bromhe, (the spelling of his name differs in different historical accounts)was able to grab some weapons and hold the French off. They eventually negotiated a surrender with him. He was lauded as a hero in the community.

Two young men, who were associated with my ancestor, were taken hostage by the French and forced to go to Canada. Again, historical accounts differ. One account says that these men were Adam's sons, another account says that it was his son and his black servant.

What happened to these young men is not exactly know. But they were either released, escaped, or ransomed because later records show that they returned to the community.
86 posted on 01/01/2005 10:31:35 AM PST by redheadtoo
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To: All

One of the reasons for this war and the fighting that took place between the French and the English prior to this was the fur trade. Money always sneaks in there somewhere doesn't it? France pretty well decimated Canada's fur and wanted to start in on American soil...this was a small part of the reasons but it was significant.IMO


87 posted on 01/01/2005 10:39:45 AM PST by calex59
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To: Paulus Invictus
The Turning Stone Casino and Resort is located about 20 miles east of Syracuse and is owned and operated by the Great Oneida Nation. Click here for Oneida-related businesses

Again, this tribe was the ONLY one of the the powerful Algonquin Nations to support the Patriots against the Brits.

Please support the Oneida Nation.

88 posted on 01/01/2005 10:40:36 AM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: redheadtoo

Thanks for the details. Any ancestors in the RevWar?


89 posted on 01/01/2005 10:43:55 AM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: Ditto
George Washington would have been a FReeper.

"I fortunately escaped without any wound, for the right wing, where I stood,..."

90 posted on 01/01/2005 10:46:01 AM PST by woofer
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Comment #91 Removed by Moderator

To: Missouri
I've been visiting the St. Charles Missouri riverfront lately and there is a quite a bit of frontier history there (Lewis and Clark's expedition) . Even though there wasn't any fighting here because of the French and Indian War, the territory around here was in a state of flux due to this war and others.

Perhaps the Battle of San Carlos would interest you.

92 posted on 01/01/2005 11:00:49 AM PST by woofer
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To: Pharmboy
Any ancestors in the RevWar?

Yes, Col. Adam Fonda. And, by the way, Jane Fonda is also a direct decedent. Just image Hanoi Jane joining the D.A.R. LOL

Adam Fonda had twin sons Henry Dowd Fonda and Dowd Henry Fonda. I am descended from Henry and Jane Fonda is decended from Dowd. That make her, and her brother Peter, fifth cousins of mine.
93 posted on 01/01/2005 11:09:27 AM PST by redheadtoo
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To: Floyd R Turbo; Chad Fairbanks

Well, that settles it then. I suppose we can disregard every photograph Edward Sheriff Curtis ever took, because those people looked and lived nothing like Twain's description.

Maybe it was all a big hoax. Photoshopped, probably.


94 posted on 01/01/2005 11:26:43 AM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (Governor Rossi was robbed.)
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To: Ditto

I read not long ago, that he kept a journal or diary on the conflict. He would never let it be published. He finally allowed a friend of his to read; but later he said to burn, or otherwise destroy it. The friend disobeyed him, and wrote a book, using some passages from it, after GW died. Of course, we wouldn't ever know GW's side of the events, if this man had 'obeyed' him!


95 posted on 01/01/2005 11:28:53 AM PST by dsutah
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To: redheadtoo

Is Fonda an English or French name? It sounds like neither...and thank you for your ancestor's service.


96 posted on 01/01/2005 11:30:12 AM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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To: Floyd R Turbo
Still, when contact with the white man has given to the Noble Son of the Forest certain cloudy impressions of civilization, and aspirations after a nobler life, he presently appears in public with one boot on and one shoe--shirtless, and wearing ripped and patched and buttonless pants which he holds up with his left hand--his execrable rabbit-skin robe flowing from his shoulder--an old hoop-skirt on, outside of it--a necklace of battered sardine-boxes and oyster-cans reposing on his bare breast--a venerable flint-lock musket in his right hand--a weather-beaten stove-pipe hat on, canted "gallusly" to starboard, and the lid off and hanging by a thread or two; and when he thus appears, and waits patiently around a saloon till he gets a chance to strike a "swell" attitude before a looking-glass, he is a good, fair, desirable subject for extermination if ever there was one.

Did you post a link to this crap because you agree with it?

97 posted on 01/01/2005 11:43:48 AM PST by DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet (Governor Rossi was robbed.)
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To: eleni121; Pharmboy

INCIDENTS IN THE EARLY HISTORY OF NEW ENGLAND, 1841, P46

“Blessings,” says Dwight, “have in many instances been given after fervent prayers have ascended to God, when none but God could have contributed to their existence; when they were utterly unattainable by any human efforts, and after all hope of obtaining them, except by prayer, had vanished.

“I am bound as an inhabitant of New England, solemnly to declare, that, were there no other instances to be found in any other country, the blessings communicated to this, would furnish ample satisfaction concerning the subject, to every sober, much more to every pious man. Among these, the destruction of the French Armament under the Duke D’Anville, in the year 1746, ought to be remembered with gratitude and admiration by every by every inhabitant of this country. This fleet consisted of 40 ships of war; was destined for the destruction of New England; was of sufficient force to render that destruction in the ordinary progress of things, certain; sailed from Chebuc to, in Nova Scotia, for this purpose; and was entirely destroyed, on the night following a general fast throughout New England, by a terrible tempest. Impious men, who regard not the work of the Lord, nor the operation of His hands, and who, for that reason, are finally destroyed, may reuse to give God the glory of this most merciful interposition. But our ancestors had, and it is to be hoped their descendants ever will have, both piety and good sense sufficient to ascribe to Jehovah the Greatness, and the Power, and the Victory, and the Majesty; and to bless the Lord God of Israel forever and ever.”

INCIDENTS IN THE EARLY HISTORY OF NEW ENGLAND, 1841, P46


And, from Nathaniel Hawthorne::
In the year 1746 great terror was excited by the arrival of a formidable French fleet upon the coast. It was commanded by the Duke d'Anville, and consisted of forty ships of war, besides vessels with soldiers on board. With this force the French intended to retake Louisburg, and afterwards to ravage the whole of New England. Many people were ready to give up the country for lost.

But the hostile fleet met with so many disasters and losses by storm and shipwreck, that the Duke d'Anville is said to have poisoned himself in despair. The officer next in command threw himself upon his sword and perished. Thus deprived of their commanders, the remainder of the ships returned to France. This was as great a deliverance for New England as that which Old England had experienced in the days of Queen Elizabeth, when the Spanish Armada was wrecked upon her coast.

http://www.eldritchpress.org/nh/gc207.html
From Grandfather's Chair, 1840
By Nathaniel Hawthorne


The preparations for attack by both sides went on vigorously from the date of the capture of Louisbourg. On the one side it was proposed to attack Quebec, and on the other a harassing series of hostilities was kept up against Nova Scotia. On the 9th April, 1746, the Duke of Newcastle wrote to Pepperrell that five battalions under St. Clair had been sent for the reduction of Canada, giving orders at the same time that Pepperrell's and Shirley's regiments were to be kept in Louisbourg whilst the expedition was in progress. During the winter of 1745-6 the mortality in the garrison was serious, 1,200 having died; those who survived till spring recovered and reinforcements had arrived, but the state of the fort of Louisbourg was very bad, repairs requiring an immense expense. By September these had been completed, but the garrison was again in a bad state of health, caused, it is supposed, by the bad water, and the mortality was great. The timely arrival of the French fleet under d'Anville would, in the opinion of all the officers, have secured the recapture of Nova Scotia. but a heavy gale off Sable Island wrecked some of the ships and scattered the others, so that when d'Anville arrived at Chebucto, that is Halifax, but few of his vessels were with him, and he died, it is said, from grief at the loss of his fleet and at the report that heavy reinforcements had arrived for the support of Nova Scotia. The early reports did not give intelligence of the subsequent movements of the fleet, which it was reported was to winter at Chebucto and fortify it, and Shirley wrote on the 7th October to Admiral Knowles that if the French took Nova Scotia they must be driven out or they would become masters of the continent. It was on the 12th of November that Mascarene, writing to the Secretary of State, reported the fate of Destourmel, who succeeded d'Anville, and becoming crazed committed suicide. In the same letter he reported the attack on, and successful defence of, Annapolis and the retreat of the French fleet. In a letter of the 20th January, 1747, Admiral Knowles reports to the Secretary of State the wonderful snow fall, which may be true but is very improbable. The passage is given in full in the calendar. An examination of the calendar will show the activity on both sides in attack and defence, in the midst of which it is complained that the traders of New York were supplying the French with stores, to the great hurt of the other colonies.

http://fortress.uccb.ns.ca/search/RPAC1894_xii.html


In the year 1746 the French Government, on receiving intelligence of the fall of Louisburg, became exasperated at the loss of such a fortress, which had cost an enormous sum of money and twenty-five years of incessant labor to render it, as it was supposed, impregnable, and at once directed an armament to be prepared of greater force than had ever yet been sent to America. Accordingly, during the winter and spring of that year an expedition was fully equipped consisting of 70 vessels, among which were 11 ships of the line and 30 frigates, and 30 transports carrying 3000 soldiers, which sailed the following June under command of Duke D'Anville, whose instructions were to retake and dismantle Louisburg, capture Annapolis, destroy Boston, and ravage the New England coast. This fleet had barely got clear of the French coast when it encountered westerly gales, which so retarded its progress that it did not reach the longitude of Sable Island until early in September, when nearly all the ships were dispersed in a violent storm during which several were lost on that island. D'Anville, with only two ships of the line and a few transports, arrived at Chebucto after a passage of ninety days. In the harbor he found one of the fleet, and in the course of the next few days several transports arrived. But D'Anville was so agitated and distressed by the misfortune which had befallen the fleet that he fell suddenly ill and died, it is said, in a fit of apoplexy. In the afternoon of the same day the Vice-Admiral, D'Estournelle, arrived with three ships of the line and succeeded to the command of the expedtion, while Jonquière -- a naval officer who had come out in the flagship as Viceroy of Canada -- was made second in command. Finding the expedition so greatly reduced in strength by the dispersion of the ships and the sickness of the men, D'Estournelle held a council of war on board the Trident, and proposed to abandon the enterprise and return to France. Jonquière and nearly all the officers were of the opinion that Annapolis, at all events, should be reduced before they returned. After a long debate the council decided to attack Annapolis. Irritated at the opposition he met with the Vice-Admiral grew fevered and delirious in which he imagined himself a prisoner, ran himself through the body with his sword and expired a few hours afterwards. On the following day both the Admiral and Vice-Admiral were buried side by side on a small island near the entrance to the outer harbor, said to be Georges Island.

During the long voyage across the Atlantic a scourbatic fever had broken out and carried off more than 1200 men before the ships reached Chebucto. As the ships arrived the sick were landed and encamped on the south shore of Bedford Basin. But in spite of every care and attention over 1100 died during five weeks' encampment. The Indians also, who flocked thither for arms, ammunition and clothing, took the infection, which spread with such great rapidity among them that it destroyed more than one-third of the whole tribe of Mic-macs. At length, however, its ravages were stayed by the seasonable arrival of supplies of fresh meat and vegetables brought to them by the Acadians from the interior.

On the 11th of October several of the fleet arrived. The next day a cruiser came in with a vessel captured off the harbor carrying dispatches from Boston to Louisburg. Among the papers was a communication from Governor Shirley to Commodore Knowles, informing him that Admiral Lestock was on his way from England with a fleet of 18 vessels, and might be hourly expected. It is said these dispatches were allowed to fall purposely into the hands of the French to induce them to leave Chebucto. The intelligence of the nearness of Lestock so alarmed the French in their crippled condition, they determined on sailing immediately for Annapolis. The encampment was broken up; the crews hurried on board; those ships that had lost their crews were either scuttled or burnt, together with several prizes captured off the coast. And on the 13th of October, with five ships of the line and twenty transports -- five of which were used as hospital ships, Jonquière sailed from the inner harbor of Chebucto -- now Bedford Basin. They were, however, again doomed to disapointment. Off Cape Sable the fleet encountered a severe storm which once more dispersed the ships and compelled them to return to France in a sinking condition. The number destroyed in Bedford Basin is uncertain. The naval chronicle states the flagship was sunk and the Parfait -- 54 guns, and the Caribou -- 60 guns, were accidently burnt. Other accounts state that from circumstances attending the death of the Admiral, the crew who were encamped on shore refused from superstitious motives to embark in her again. For this reason, and also she being very much injured during the storm, Jonquière decided on scuttling her, while the prizes and several of the smaller ships were burnt. Those lost on Sable Island were -- three ships of the line, one transport, and a fire ship.
http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/halew/Wrecks.html


98 posted on 01/01/2005 11:46:48 AM PST by RaceBannon (Jesus: Born of the Jews, through the Jews, for the sins of the World!)
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To: Pharmboy
Is Fonda an English or French name?

Actually it is Italian in origin. Over the course of a few centuries the Fondas went from Italy, to Spain, to Holland and finally to North America. Until the late Henry Fonda decided to become an actor, all of the Fonda men chose the military for a career and most of them were named Henry or Adam.
99 posted on 01/01/2005 11:54:25 AM PST by redheadtoo
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To: redheadtoo

I used to drive through here:

Fonda, NY
Fonda is a village in Montgomery County. It is the county seat.

The community is in the Eastern Standard time zone.

The population, at the time of the 2000 census, was 810. (For more census details, see our Fonda demographic reports.)ESSENTIALS
FAMILY: Fonda genealogy
HOUSING: Local homes for sale
LODGING: Nearby hotels
TRAVEL: Nearby airports

Fonda is on the Mohawk River

The community was named after Douw Fonda, settler who was scalped in an Indian raid

Community festivals include:
· Fonda Fair in August-September

Festival guide

Historic routes: Erie Canal

(See more information on the Erie Canal)

Historic sites and museums: Little Red Schoolhouse, National Kateri Tekakwitha Shrine

More museums info


100 posted on 01/01/2005 12:04:53 PM PST by Pharmboy (Listen...you can still hear the old media sobbing.)
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