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Married, without children: Finding fulfillment with no kids
Rocky Mountain News ^ | 1/3/05 | Mark Wolf

Posted on 01/03/2005 8:31:56 AM PST by qam1

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To: ThinkDifferent

Zinga!! LOL


601 posted on 01/03/2005 3:30:30 PM PST by exnavychick (Just my two cents, as usual.)
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To: zoobee
"When my friends were in their 20's, they would be truthful and tell me how they regret having kids........and let's not forget that ALOT Of kids born today are accidents."

___________

Yes, that is a sad fact. Most of my friends waited until they were in their 30's to have children and they have wonderful lives and don't regret a thing. My point was for those who said they wanted to have children but did not think they could afford them. My first child was not planned and we thought that we would never make ends meet. All worked out just find and it was the best thing that ever happened to us. The second was planned and it's great to have another baby in the house. Ten years ago would have been a totally different story. From my experience people should have kids when they are ready to but not worry so much about the money.
602 posted on 01/03/2005 3:38:02 PM PST by Mase
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To: don-o
It's an outrage, what the domestic adoption system has turned into.

Our friend successfully adopted from Romania. US adoption agencies wouldn't consider them because the wife was 36 and the husband 65.

603 posted on 01/03/2005 3:42:02 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: WolfRunnerWoman
Any social security I see as the result of somebody else kid "supporting me" is far outweighed by the thousands of dollars in taxation spent on other peoples kids.

Here is a clue: If your tax dollars are going in, nothing is ever likely going to come out. Once a tax sink, always a tax sink.

Yeah, I know you will all likely crow loudly about financial aid, but 1) it isn't a significant part of the budget and 2) those people will more than repay the investment in future taxes.

604 posted on 01/03/2005 3:52:49 PM PST by hopespringseternal
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To: wardaddy
"personal" could have meant fertility issues Sink...as opposed to ideological.

Then say so. There's no shame in that.

605 posted on 01/03/2005 4:06:33 PM PST by sinkspur ("How dare you presume to tell God what He cannot do" God Himself)
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To: Aquinasfan
Who the hell cares about college in comparison to bringing another life into the world?

Why do parents think they need to pay for college in the first place?

606 posted on 01/03/2005 4:31:47 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: don-o

Okay, but where is the "selfishness"?

Fifty years ago, women didn't generally work outside the home. Should we go back to that as "normal"? Well, we'd lose almost half of our workforce if we did.

Perhaps we should go back to horses and buggies? I mean, these days there are just so many gosh darn choices in travel. In my grandpappy's day, we never traveled more than 30 miles from home. So why should we travel more than 30 miles from home today?

There are more choices available to people today in terms of careers, travel, medicine, and, yes, whether or not to have children. You can thank birth control for that.

A hundred years ago, 1/3 of women died in childbirth. I bet many women back then would have decided to have fewer kids or no kids if they had the choice.


607 posted on 01/03/2005 5:05:13 PM PST by Abigail Adams
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To: HairOfTheDog; ecurbh; qam1
I know why I got pinged here!

My wife and I have been married over 24 years...and yes we do not have children either. There were a number of reasons but when it got right down to it we simply did not have a desire to have children. And we thought that important -- for the children, they are a huge investment in time and energy and we were both children of much older parents, who didn't have that much time or energy left.

We don't make it a cause celebre or advocate our choices for anyone else - it's probably the wrong choice for most people, because most people, I suspect, really want children. And we don't apologize for our decisions either. It just worked for us. That's it.

608 posted on 01/03/2005 5:41:40 PM PST by Scott from the Left Coast
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To: HairOfTheDog; ecurbh; qam1
I know why I got pinged here!

My wife and I have been married over 24 years...and yes we do not have children either. There were a number of reasons but when it got right down to it we simply did not have a desire to have children. And we thought that important -- for the children, they are a huge investment in time and energy and we were both children of much older parents, who didn't have that much time or energy left.

We don't make it a cause celebre or advocate our choices for anyone else - it's probably the wrong choice for most people, because most people, I suspect, really want children. And we don't apologize for our decisions either. It just worked for us. That's it.

609 posted on 01/03/2005 5:41:40 PM PST by Scott from the Left Coast
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To: Scott from the Left Coast

Thanks.... both times you said it... I wasn't really asking you to explain yourselves, just thinking maybe you thought like ecurbh and me, with your own reasons :~D


610 posted on 01/03/2005 5:43:14 PM PST by HairOfTheDog
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To: Slyfox

Of course you wouldn't trade the time investment! That is a choice you made.

And, if I guess correctly, the choice on your part was not of an investment equation.

By the way, the quotes were meaningful-child rearing is probably more difficult and complex than trying to split the atom with a dull butter knife!


611 posted on 01/03/2005 6:28:53 PM PST by rlmorel
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To: Slyfox

I am a Hospice nurse, who has cared for many dying people with children too busy to be there for the people that gave them life. "I can only come once, when should I plan to be there.?" Gosh, I wish I had God's confidence.


612 posted on 01/03/2005 6:29:29 PM PST by az wildkitten
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To: Abigail Adams; Ohioan

Dang Abby,

You sound a bit fembotty dear.

Do you really feel that strongly about all this?

You are right though ...our economy is addicted to large numbers of moms in the workforce. Sudden withdrawal would be painful.

Why do women have careers and men have jobs or work?

Why do women need validating beyond being good wives and moms? I get my validation from being a good dad-husband-provider....truthfully I don't even seek validation...I just do it...like Nike.

Oh well...name your dinosaur..me.

Ohioan,

more culture stuff, have you seen this?


613 posted on 01/03/2005 6:48:04 PM PST by wardaddy (Quisiera ser un pez para tocar mi nariz en tu pecera)
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my wife put me out to pasture after 4 (2 with her).....are we selfish?

in this modern age, it's more up to the gal....i've tried bribery (big toys and shiny stuff)and even promised a v-cut (trembling as I type that)....but I am still lashed to port.

life is not fair.

procreation is the raison de voire for many of us.


614 posted on 01/03/2005 6:53:10 PM PST by wardaddy (Quisiera ser un pez para tocar mi nariz en tu pecera)
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To: Scott from the Left Coast
Good for you, Scott.

I came from a dysfunctional family -- my father was a monster and my mother was an enabler -- and I left home at the earliest possibility and never looked back. After my father’s death, I found out about the family secret: A particularly vicious form of inherited manic depression that led to a suicide (and other scandals) in the family that nobody wanted to talk about. But my sister and I should have been told when we reached adulthood.

My sister married a good man (pure luck!) and trashed her marriage when bipolar disorder hit at age 30. (The womenfolk in the family all manifest at that age.) Her adult son is an intellectual and emotional basket case, and her adult daughter ran for dear life to get away from her mother at the first possible occasion. (Wait until she hits 30!)

I never married, made a total mess of every relationship and finally had myself sterilized to make sure the family curse stopped with me.

I don't look down on those who reproduce. But I do look down on those who look down on those who don't reproduce. There is a thing called Responsibility, and I respect those who honor it.

Some people just shouldn't have children.

615 posted on 01/03/2005 6:57:17 PM PST by Publius (The people of a democracy choose the government they want, and they ought to get it good and hard.)
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To: Abigail Adams
Fifty years ago, women didn't generally work outside the home. Should we go back to that as "normal"?

Yes.

Well, we'd lose almost half of our workforce if we did.

Wages would then increase.

616 posted on 01/03/2005 6:58:24 PM PST by don-o (Stop Freeploading. Do the right thing and become a Monthly Donor.)
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To: az wildkitten

Bless you for your work. I know it's not an easy job.


617 posted on 01/03/2005 7:01:03 PM PST by Slyfox
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To: az wildkitten
I am a Hospice nurse,

God bless and help you. We are having hospice care here at home for my 90 year old father-in-law. Of course, we are oddballs, with a stay at home mama, and two boys in home school; but having these wonderful folks coming in, and on call to help the old man's last days is such a blessing.

Of course, he could have chosen not to have kids....

618 posted on 01/03/2005 7:03:19 PM PST by don-o (Stop Freeploading. Do the right thing and become a Monthly Donor.)
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To: Abigail Adams
"A hundred years ago, 1/3 of women died in childbirth"

I'm going to say that is not accurate the way it is stated.

619 posted on 01/03/2005 7:29:44 PM PST by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: wardaddy
Why do women need validating beyond being good wives and moms?

well, i'm no feminist--i believe in stay-at-home-moms--but, my father died when i was a pre-teen, and i vowed that i would not be put in the position that my mom--a great wife and mother--found herself in, which was little education and a low-paying job. i don't need the validation...i need the security. [i also need a keyboard for my ipaq so i can use caps and punctuations correctly]

620 posted on 01/03/2005 7:51:31 PM PST by hispanarepublicana (Miss Free Republic High School-198?)
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To: hispanarepublicana

Your's and many others expediency and survival exceptions are noted.

I do however know plenty of women...mostly non-Southern who need validating outside the home.

Another trend I've noticed are stay at home moms who do not raise their kids (and some are Southern). They play tennis, shop and join women's groups to talk about being women. I have a number of them on my street. Wives of doctors and lawyers and such.

Regards and good luck with the keyboard.


621 posted on 01/03/2005 8:19:05 PM PST by wardaddy (Quisiera ser un pez para tocar mi nariz en tu pecera)
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To: don-o

I am not a fem-bot. But I do not want to be told that as a woman, my only contribution to society is to breed.

Some women have brilliant minds, special skills, wonderful ideas. And it would be a shame if we returned to the days were women were relegated to the kitchen and nursery.

Certainly there is something to be said for a woman staying at home with young children, if it is possible and if she wants to. But that doesn't mean she can't have a rewarding career if she wants one.

This is the twenty-first century, is it not?

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how not having kids is selfish.

Obviously, I feel strongly about this topic because we have decided not to have kids. If women's only value to society is to breed, and I'm not breeding, then I guess my life is worthless. (sarcasm off)


622 posted on 01/03/2005 9:09:56 PM PST by Abigail Adams
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To: don-o
Wages would then increase.

Lump of labor fallacy.

623 posted on 01/03/2005 9:15:19 PM PST by ThinkDifferent (These pretzels are making me thirsty)
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To: Sam Cree

I looked it up and you are right. In 1915 the death rate was 6% in childbirth. I think I was recalling a statistic I heard on a program about the time of Henry VIII, which was a few hundred years ago.


624 posted on 01/03/2005 9:16:34 PM PST by Abigail Adams
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To: exnavychick

Well, it's probably just one of the many reasons some married folks don't want kids. I don't see anything wrong with it.

And tantrums I'm familiar with to a certain degree. My little niece, whom I love more than any other child in the world, has lately been attempting to get somewhat expert at them...

And please don't get me wrong. I understand that even the best parents sometimes can't control their kids' behavior. It seems a safe bet that all of us were brats in public at one time or another when we were kids. :-)

And then there are probably at least a few downright evil children out there who may never have the capacity to learn to control themselves. But that might be veering a bit off topic...


625 posted on 01/03/2005 9:52:41 PM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: don-o
What we see when we see that, is the result of bad choices by parents. It is not ipso facto proof that bringing children into the world is a bad thing.

I never argued it is.

I bet a dollar, not a one of them had a stay at home mama; nor was one home schooled.

You're probably right about home-schooled kids being well-behaved. But substitute "stay at home mama" with "stay at home welfare mama" and the picture changes a bit...

626 posted on 01/03/2005 10:05:39 PM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: Slyfox
Did I say having kids would guarentee companionship? Nope, I didn't. The only thing it does is increase your chances.

So does being outgoing and liking people.

627 posted on 01/04/2005 5:05:41 AM PST by zoobee (Reason to have kids: I need someone to take care of me when i'm old.....(very selfish))
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To: qam1
I wish I had my son earlier!


628 posted on 01/04/2005 5:27:39 AM PST by whd23
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To: az wildkitten
I am a Hospice nurse...

My father passed away at home in July. We had some wonderful help from the Hospice. You are doing a great service to the dying and their families. Thank you very much!

629 posted on 01/04/2005 5:43:34 AM PST by whd23
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To: don-o

There have always been people who were unsuitable as parents, even fifty years ago. Children did get beat up or abused by bad parents. HOwever, the social pressure back then was far greater to have children. That the pressure has been ameliorated, that we acknowledge some people should not be parents, speaks to progress, not scandal.


630 posted on 01/04/2005 5:47:25 AM PST by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: qam1

Interesting comments. Thanks for the post.


631 posted on 01/04/2005 5:53:46 AM PST by PGalt
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To: LizardQueen
You don't need to justify yourself to anyone. Ignore the "you're selfish" crowd as they cannot accept anything outside their narrow worldview and must resort to judgements and insults. It's a shame that there's so much of that on FR.

I am glad you've made the best peace possible with your situation.

632 posted on 01/04/2005 6:07:35 AM PST by A Ruckus of Dogs
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To: k2blader

I think that might be covered on a thread or two around here, if I'm not mistaken. :)


633 posted on 01/04/2005 6:09:03 AM PST by exnavychick (I'm no expert, but I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!)
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To: hopespringseternal
It warms the cockles of my “selfish, immature” heart to know that people like
you fret over people like me living a long time and your kids having to be taxed
to death to pay for it. (-;

Here’s a clue for you. My grandmother lived to be 95 and my mother is 70
and still goes hiking.
634 posted on 01/04/2005 6:20:53 AM PST by WolfRunnerWoman (I want closure on the word "closure".)
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To: WolfRunnerWoman
It warms the cockles of my “selfish, immature” heart to know that people like you fret over people like me living a long time and your kids having to be taxed to death to pay for it. (-;

Why? I won't give it another thought. But I guess there go your conservative credentials.

635 posted on 01/04/2005 6:28:39 AM PST by hopespringseternal
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To: hopespringseternal
Bwahahaha.
I'm not worried about my "conservative credentials" and neither am I expecting anything from social insecurity and have planned accordingly. I'm just glad that some of the folks taking people to task for remaining childfree are worried about it.
636 posted on 01/04/2005 6:39:33 AM PST by WolfRunnerWoman (I want closure on the word "closure".)
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To: EternalVigilance

"At eighteen, I got to watch my daughter walk down the aisle."

WOW! You must have been a miracle baby to have had the ability to procreate!


637 posted on 01/04/2005 7:08:30 AM PST by CSM
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To: CSM

I guess you missed the context! ;-)

I was responding to the poster who was talking about the joys associated with their sixteen year-old dog! LOL...


638 posted on 01/04/2005 7:13:45 AM PST by EternalVigilance (Shaking nine point oh - With a deadly wave goodbye - oh four departed...)
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To: tortoise
Why do parents think they need to pay for college in the first place?

Good point. It's often simply assumed.

639 posted on 01/04/2005 7:37:15 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Abigail Adams

Thanks for your reply.

I saw a statistic that said that in 1900 there were 850 deaths of mothers in childbirth per 100,000 births. Apparently in those days some women, on discovering their pregnancy, would write heart wrenching letters (to be opened in case of death) of goodbye to their loved ones.

Actually, I happen to think that lots of people shouldn't even get married (at least to each other), much less have kids. OTOH, when it all comes together, it is precious beyond description.

My mother, who was quite religious, often said that our main reason for being on earth was perpetuation of the species. I personally don't argue with that.

Still, being a parent is not the right thing for many.


640 posted on 01/04/2005 7:44:53 AM PST by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: All

(3) Damn Good Reasons NOT to Reproduce:
1) Other People's Kids (You can't escape them!)
2) Rebellion (Life's way too short for this adorable stage!)
3) Expense (They're an incredible cash drain!)

* Before you give me that "one less liberal" crap, I'm a die-hard Conservative!!!


641 posted on 01/04/2005 7:56:14 AM PST by PatriotBill
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To: k2blader
If one believes those covenants apply to Christians today, why would he not also believe all of God's other commands in Genesis, Exodus and Leviticus apply as well?

God's commands based in natural law (like the Ten Commandments) are eternal and eternally binding. Pastoral commands were provisional, as pastoral commands are provisional today.

But we know they do not all apply, because of Jesus Christ.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." " (Matthew 5:17-20)

Do you honestly believe people who do not want children should have them?

If they do not want children, they should not get married. The primary purpose of marriage is the begetting and raising of children. For Christians, the primary purpose of marriage is the begetting of children, their raising, and their preparation for heaven.

People who get married should accept the fruit of intercourse. No Christian denomination accepted artificial means of birth control until 1930, when the Lambeth Conference accepted it for hardship cases.

Additionally, consider that most couples that have "accidents" are most often pleasantly surprised. Certainly, there are some parents who may never want their children, but the suffering that these children endure can be used by God for His purposes.

Because that would be a horrible thing--to have children only because other people think you should.

See above. People who get married should accept the resulting children. Artificial contraception is the reproductive equivalent of binging and purging.

When you really think about it, it would actually be immoral: wrong to do to the child, wrong to do to oneself, wrong to do to anyone else it might affect, and thus wrong to do in God's sight.

Why immoral? Again, let's assume that the parents do not want their children even after birth. The children will certainly suffer as a result. But God can use this suffering for His ends, to bring a greater good.

Using an evil means (artificial contraception) to justify a questionable good (children not being born to parents who don't want them) is immoral.

There are many purposes for marriage. Procreation is indeed one of them. But I don't believe it's a mandate.

There are three natural purposes of marriage that we can discern using reason alone: procreation, the mutual care of the spouses, and the channeling of the sex drive.

If procreation is removed from the definition of marriage, the remaining purposes are mutual care and the channeling of the sex drive, ends that can be realized by other means. This definition strips marriage of its unique and essential feature. Consider that this definition can be applied equally to homosexuals.

I understand conservative Catholics may feel differently, and that's fine.

My argument is a natural law argument, so it applies not only to Catholics, but to all Christians, and even all people.

The sacramental nature of marriage is unique to Christianity.

642 posted on 01/04/2005 8:16:42 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: olivia3boys
And you're right: you don't know love until you have a child.

I thought that I'd love having kids, but I had no idea how intense it would be. As soon as my first daughter was born, I felt like my heart had gone out and stuck to my daughter. It's hard to explain. I thought, "Wow, I can't believe how much I love her!" Then I thought, "Dear God, what if something ever happened to her? I couldn't live!" That's something that I'm continually working on. It gives me a greater understanding of Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac, and the Father's willingness to sacrifice His only Son.

643 posted on 01/04/2005 8:24:19 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: WolfRunnerWoman
Ann Landers' famous "The Childless Couple"

Rule #6: Ann Landers is an idiot.

644 posted on 01/04/2005 8:28:17 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Modernman
there is no reason to expand the American population.

Ever seen "Scrooge"?

645 posted on 01/04/2005 8:30:08 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan
Ever seen "Scrooge"?

Yeah. Why do you ask?

646 posted on 01/04/2005 8:42:31 AM PST by Modernman (What is moral is what you feel good after. - Ernest Hemingway)
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To: Modernman
And, to a large extent, bringing a child into today's American society with no hope of having that child go to college is essentially consigning that child to a lifetime of poverty.

There is a measurable correlation with lifetime income.

high school graduates can expect, on average, to earn $1.2 million; those with a bachelor's degree, $2.1 million; and people with a master's degree, $2.5 million.
But as Thomas Sowell says, you'll also find a correlation between children who have logged a lot of airplane miles and lifetime income. This doesn't mean that we should fly children around in planes all day.

Furthermore, single motherhood is by far the factor most correlated with poverty. (This fact ties in with this discussion, but you have to connect a lot of dots).

But all of this is irrelevant to the purpose of bringing children into this world: preparing them for heaven. Earth is a factory for populating heaven, not a race to see who finishes with the most toys.

647 posted on 01/04/2005 8:42:36 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan
But all of this is irrelevant to the purpose of bringing children into this world: preparing them for heaven. Earth is a factory for populating heaven, not a race to see who finishes with the most toys.

Not really relevant to this discussion. I'm much more concerned with what happens to children in this world. The hereafter, if it exists, is above my pay-grade.

648 posted on 01/04/2005 8:47:37 AM PST by Modernman (What is moral is what you feel good after. - Ernest Hemingway)
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To: freedumb2003
And God told you this directly? You have an insight into The Almighty's thoughts and desires?

What do you think God thinks of binging and purging? Why?

Now apply this line of reasoning to artificial birth control and see what you come up with.

If you're a Bible-believer, consider that the first command issued by God to his creatures is to "be fruitful and multiply."

Genesis 1:27-28

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it."


649 posted on 01/04/2005 8:52:53 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: cyborg

I've noticed that life-changing events like the birth of children changes people. They then become a family unit and often maintain only superficial contact with once close friends. It's normal.


650 posted on 01/04/2005 8:55:21 AM PST by Bon mots
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