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High School Equivalency Exam
World Wide Web Links | 1/6/05 | Kevin O'Malley

Posted on 01/06/2005 7:58:45 PM PST by Kevin OMalley

I've been getting asked more and more about my position that high school is a waste of time and my recommendation for parents to give their children a choice to skip high school. This is in response to the liberal agendas now prevalent in high schools as well as the simple fact that such a strategy would give kids a 4 year head start on their peers. Below are some useful links for investigating this option. I will repost my own experience under that.

http://parents.berkeley.edu/advice/school/equivexam.html

UCB Parents Advice about School Taking the High School Equivalency Exam Advice and recommendations from the UCB Parents mailing list. This page is brought to you by UC Berkeley Parents Network Back to: Advice about School & Preschool --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How does GED differ from CHSPE? What's an R-4 Affadavit? 16-year-old wants to drop out & take the GED

http://www.cde.ca.gov/ta/tg/sp/documents/faq.pdf

California High School Proficiency Exam (CHSPE) Frequently Asked Questions — FAQs

http://www.hsc.org/chaos/teens/tests.php

Tests (CHSPE and GED) By Wes Beach Tests provide a limited means of measuring test-taking ability and maybe other things. Don't let them be any kind of measure of who your kids are. They can, however, serve important practical purposes such as high school completion or college admissions and credit.

There are two tests by means of which to earn a high-school-diploma-equivalent certificate: the California High School Proficiency Examination (CHSPE) and the General Educational Development (GED). The CHSPE has a narrower focus and tests skills and knowledge in reading, math, writing, and language. The GED includes these areas and also tests in science and social studies. Opinions vary about which test is more difficult, and different perceptions probably arise from kids with different strengths. The GED is more widely known and may be more readily accepted, although it is a myth that the CHSPE Certificate is unacceptable outside California.

In California (different states have different rules), anyone 18 or older can take the GED, and there are exceptions for somewhat younger people under some circumstances. It is administered by adult education schools in public school districts and is offered frequently. Contact your local adult school for information on the GED or call the GED Office at the California Department of Education at (800) 331-6316.

The CHSPE may be taken by anyone who, on the day of the exam, is 16 or older, or has finished the tenth grade, or is enrolled in the second semester of the tenth grade. This exam is offered two or three times a year at test sites throughout the state. CHSPE information bulletins can be found at high schools and libraries or at http://www.chspe.net/. For questions not answered in the bulletin, call (866) 342-4773. There is a great deal of misinformation about the CHSPE floating around, especially within the public schools. Check the official bulletin to confirm anything you hear. A student who passes the CHSPE still has the right to attend public high school if desired.

If a CHSPE or GED certificate is to be used for admission to college, entering the military, specific job requirements, etc., be sure to check at the source (the colleges, the military, the employer, etc.) regarding their policies.

Preparation books for these exams can be found in bookstores and libraries.

The College Board/Educational Testing Service offers a number of exams that can support college admission and/or can lead to college credit:

The PSAT, a shortened version of SAT I, is usually taken by high school juniors. If a student is in high school at the time he takes this test, he is automatically entered into the National Merit Scholarship competition. The PSAT is administered by high schools on their campuses; non-enrolled students may be allowed to take the test. Contact local high schools. SAT I (possibly along with SAT II) may be required for admission to four-year colleges and universities. There are two parts to SAT I: verbal—analogies, sentence completions, and critical reading questions—and math at the high school college preparatory level. The SAT's (I & II) are given at test sites throughout the state; sites are listed in the application booklet (see below). SAT II is a set of separate tests on high school subjects—world history, chemistry, French, etc. Advanced Placement: Colleges often grant credit for sufficiently high scores on AP exams. These exams are final exams in college-level classes taught in high school and are given at high schools at the end of the courses; students who have not taken the courses may be allowed to take the exams. Colleges also grant credit for good scores on CLEP exams. These exams are generally easier than AP exams, are given at test centers throughout the state, and cover the content of more than thirty college-level courses. ACT (formerly American College Testing) offers the ACT, a somewhat broader college admission test that colleges may use instead of or in addition to the SAT. The ACT consists of four sections: English, math, reading, and science. Even when SAT/ACT scores aren't required, they provide one way (there are others) to demonstrate academic ability and acquired knowledge in the absence of a traditional transcript. It may be possible to gain admission to the schools your kids choose through testing alone, and impressive test scores always add strength to a college application. Just as in the case with the SAT/ACT, good scores on AP and/or CLEP exams can support a college application. Check carefully with colleges of interest for their policies regarding credit. Classes that prepare students for these tests may be offered by high schools, adult schools, community colleges, and private companies.

Guides and preparation materials can be found in libraries and bookstores. Explanatory and application materials from the College Board and ACT can be found at high schools, colleges, and libraries, and also can be obtained directly from the College Board at (510) 873-8000 or at http://www.collegeboard.org; SAT tests will be changing within the next few years. To keep informed of those changes, check the website http://www.collegeboard.com/about/newsat/newsat.html. Information about the ACT can be obtained at (916) 631-9200 or at http://www.act.org. Information on the GED is available at http://www.acenet.edu/calec/ged.

http://www.collegeconfidential.com/dean/archives/000064.htm

College Confidential: Does CHSPE = GED?

Question: When colleges say that they accept GEDs, what does that mean for the CHSPE? Do they accept that credential as a high school diploma? If not, what should I do?

At the California High School Proficiency Examination (CHSPE) Web site (www.cde.ca.gov/statetests/chspe) you can find an Information Bulletin and Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs) about the CHSPE. California law states that the Certificate of Proficiency provided to students who pass the CHSPE is equivalent to a high school diploma. In other words, institutions that are subject to California law and that require a high school diploma must also accept the CHSPE. (However, the Certificate of Proficiency is not equivalent to completing all course work required for regular graduation from high school.)

Therefore, if you've received the CHSPE Certificate of Proficiency, your certificate would be equivalent to a high school diploma. The Certificate of Proficiency is not equivalent to completing all course work required for regular graduation from high school in California. However--and this is a good caveat for most general college-entrance-related questions--you should always check with the admissions offices (or admissions sections of the Web sites) of those colleges to which you are considering applying. This is especially important if you're interested in colleges and universities outside of California that may not accept the CHSPE or may not even be familiar with it.


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: aadegree; ab2607; advancedplacement; ap; assessment; chspe; clep; college; collegedegree; diploma; education; fire; ged; generaleducation; homeschool; homeschooling; homeschoollist; kipp; liberalagenda; lipsman; nea; proficiency; psat; pspl; publiceducation; publicschools; sat; scholasticaptitude; school; schoolisjail; schools; skiphighschool; skipschool; students; teachers; teen; voucher; wasteoftime
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To: PokerGod
"But I know that employers DO in fact prefer high school diplomas to GEDs."

You "know" no such thing. You may know of some employers who prefer high school diplomas to GEDs. You may correctly surmise that most employers prefer high school diplomas to GEDs when the applicant has only a high school education. But you cannot know what every employer in the country prefers. I dare say that there are more than a few employers who have a GED themselves who quite prefer to hire workers who also have a GED rather than a high school diploma.

I cannot believe that many employers care one way or the other about high school diplomas when the applicants have a college degree.
101 posted on 01/08/2005 4:01:39 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: Kevin OMalley
I loved high school but it was not the same as today.

I would think a degree based on an exam, assuming it was appropriately difficult, would be better than a diploma at determining a students proficiency.

I have two masters degrees but also think a Masters or Doctorate based on appropriate exams would be better than the current degreees. Yes I know all about the orals, theses, dissertations etc.

I would far prefer a teacher who passed a difficult exam to get their certificate to one who completed an education degree program at a University.

102 posted on 01/08/2005 4:08:52 PM PST by yarddog
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To: yarddog

The universities are filled with immigrant professors with accents so thick that you can barely make out one sentence. They couldn't teach well enough to save their daughter's life, but they're really good at passing exams.


103 posted on 01/08/2005 4:18:57 PM PST by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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To: Ciexyz
"I took a number of advanced courses in 11th and 12th grades that have broadened my education."

Any reason that you could not take those classes at a community college? My daughter is studying chemical engineering at Rice, but she went to community college at 15. She went to community college for three years and got over 90 credits and she took all sorts of classes to broaden her education that she would not have taken had she gone straight into Chemical Engineering, since so much of the Chemical Engineering course work is prescribed by the department.

At community college she took things like extra English classes, accounting, economics, private voice lessons, Spanish, as well as all the calculus, physics, and chemistry classes that permit her to take a lighter load at Rice.
104 posted on 01/08/2005 4:36:44 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: Kevin OMalley

>>>The FR HS diploma proposal has nothing to do with indoctrination. I was answering your implied conditional.

What is the point of a FR diploma? Think about that for a minute, the fact that it is assocated with FR is a big clue.

>>what if you're a child who isn't being taught faith & morals?

Then I doubt you'd be interested in a FR diploma in the first place.

>> How can you escape the prison of PC moral relativism being force fed in our high schools today?

I already gave you the answer: home school. but that doesn't imply home indoctrination either. All we need are more rabid capitalists (most of whom's moral positions are flaky). Admittedly the left is pumping out rabid socialists and communists. But it's like fighting evil with evil, not a real solution.


105 posted on 01/08/2005 4:38:52 PM PST by 1stFreedom
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To: Kevin OMalley
I got my first degree in 1967 and my last in 1991.

I don't recall having a single immigrant professor at any of my schools except one Hungarian refugee who was a right wing fanatic, and I liked him.

The ability to teach, imo is more inborn than learned. Sort of like being a sprinter. You can improve a little but you can't put in what God left out.

106 posted on 01/08/2005 4:39:08 PM PST by yarddog
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To: Do not dub me shapka broham
"Someone who has been out of the classroom for years is going to have a much harder time adjusting to routine college-level courses than someone who has recently graduated from high school."

Maybe, but our experience with our daughter went: homeschooled until fifteen, community college for three years, Rice University. Rice is a competitive college with only 25% of applicants being accepted and only 10% of transfer students being accepted.
107 posted on 01/08/2005 4:42:56 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: 1stFreedom
"If you teach your children faith and morals as principal values, they can find the truths which lay in each economic system."

We homeschooled our daughter and my wife taught my daughter faith and morals as principal values and I taught her that leftist and liberals suck big time and to vote for Dubya.
108 posted on 01/08/2005 4:45:35 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: MissAmericanPie
"I'm home schooling, rather have him alive than shot dead in educated hood high school. Actually he's ahead and should graduate faster."

We homeschooled our daughter and now that she is twenty, we are very happy that we did. We had to send her to community college at fifteen, because by that time, the math was getting too difficult for my wife to teach. Still, we considered the community college environment to be much less conformist and controlling.
109 posted on 01/08/2005 4:48:40 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: 1stFreedom

"fighting evil with evil"

Capitalism is not evil.


110 posted on 01/08/2005 4:52:27 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: Max Combined; All

>> leftist and liberals suck big time and to vote for Dubya.

A perfect example of what I mean.

This isn't education, it's training. There is a big difference. Liberals don't suck on every position, and neither do leftists. (That doesn't mean there isn't a high number of issues they do suck on. ;-) )

Just as every milkmaid thought they were bible scholars back in the day of Martin Luthor, many in the homeschool movement think they are political and economic experts. (The problem is there is no perfect system, and there are moral truths contained in the systems.)

Why not teach your children critical thinking skills, Epistemology , and your faith?

We have a bunch of ignorant leftists running around. Let's not add ignorant rightists to the mix. Instead, add people who really can't be pegged -- people who can think each issue through.


111 posted on 01/08/2005 5:06:48 PM PST by 1stFreedom
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To: dawn53
I graduated from high school in 1973 at age 16. That effort started just after 8th grade. Two sessions of summer school each year. High school was 10th grade and 12th grade with full senior privileges. The catch was that I petitioned the school board to define class standing by credits earned...standard procedure in colleges. Twenty other students expressed a desire to follow my lead. We all graduated a year early...with full privileges.

I was remiss in not applying to UCSD in time for the Fall 1973 quarter, but my application was accepted for Winter 1974. I filled in the summer with a microbiology class and the Fall semester with 16 units of math, chemistry, English and PE. At UCSD, I took 18 to 22 units every quarter and double summer school sessions again. I graduated with a BA in Molecular Biology from Revelle College, UCSD in June 1976 at age 19. School is a time to work your butt off to get ahead of your peers.

The GED option was not an option in 1973. UCSD had a bunch of requirements that were satisfied by specific courses completed in high school. American history and government classes in particular. The high school German classes just were not up to snuff for the Revelle foreign language proficiency. That requires a score of 680 or above on the SAT II in the language plus a verbal interview with native speakers. The interview starts with a requirement to read an article in a current magazine, then discuss it with the interviewer.

I'm not sure the GED is necessarily the road to success. It is a short cut out the door. If you have the personal discipline to continue studying the necessary material to move ahead academically, then it is probably OK.

I should have pursued a double major in electrical engineering and computer science. That wasn't the preferred route to medical school. The affirmative action quota systems and medical malpractice suits and insurance caused me to re-evaluate my career direction. Barnes & Noble, HBJ, Amazon and others deserve credit for making the necessary computer science and electrical engineering books. I'm doing what I should have done now.

112 posted on 01/08/2005 5:15:22 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: Max Combined
My daughter is studying chemical engineering at Rice, but she went to community college at 15.

Kudos to your daughter for all her hard work, and here's wishing her success in her career.

Not everyone can afford to bypass free high school classes to attend community college in lieu of HS. And in HS the student has extended time to concentrate on a discipline, for ex., nine months to master a foreign language vs. a three-month course in college. There's no way that a first year college language course (ex., Spanish I) is equivalent to a full nine months of study in HS. This is the best way to give a student a thorough grounding in disciplines such as foreign languages.

I can testify to this fact. I studied two foreign languages in high school, then started a third from scratch at college, and nothing beats the intense language study at the HS level.

113 posted on 01/08/2005 5:24:55 PM PST by Ciexyz (I use the term Blue Cities, not Blue States. PA is red except for Philly, Pgh & Erie)
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To: Max Combined
Actually, I was referring more to "continuing education", i.e. adult, students than to teenagers who have been (primarily) home-schooled.

There's a great documentary, "Spellbound", which serves as a perfect illustration of the values of following this educational method, if the child has responsible, well-informed parents at the helm.

114 posted on 01/08/2005 5:48:15 PM PST by Do not dub me shapka broham (Proud listener to politically pornographic, freakish talk show host, Sean Hannity!)
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To: Ciexyz

"nothing beats the intense language study at the HS level."

Except going and living in a country where they speak that language and very little English. There is nothing like a long haired dictionary, in my experience. It is all a matter of motivation.


115 posted on 01/08/2005 5:53:30 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: Kevin OMalley
My oldest daughter (homeschooled) started college at 15

The way we did it was have her get a good SAT score (1300), declare her as having skipped a couple of grades and being a HS senior, and enrolled her in a program at the local community college where smart highschoolers can do their senior year at the college, and pick up college credits that are transferrable to a regular 4-year college.

If your kid is a homeschooler wanting to go to college, and your local CC has a similar program, I would recommend it. It gives the kid a lot of credibility when applying to places if she already is doing college work at an accredited college and getting good grades

116 posted on 01/08/2005 6:01:19 PM PST by SauronOfMordor (We are going to fight until hell freezes over and then we are going to fight on the ice)
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To: Max Combined
I agree, immersion in a language, by living in that culture, is the best way to learn a language.

But a solid educational preparation should be made beforehand.

I encourage every student to take at least three years, not just the required two, in a foreign language. If for no other reason, it looks great on your college application, when you take more than the required minimum.

117 posted on 01/08/2005 6:13:46 PM PST by Ciexyz (I use the term Blue Cities, not Blue States. PA is red except for Philly, Pgh & Erie)
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To: Kevin OMalley

Obviously the one with the AA degree. But most people with GEDs don't go on to get AAs.


118 posted on 01/08/2005 6:35:40 PM PST by PokerGod
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To: Max Combined

You are correct, but now you are being disingenuous.

I never mentioned anything about a college degree.

Obviously if someone with a GED gets a college degree then they will be more attractive as a job candidate than someone who just has a high school diploma.

But if an employer sees two people, one with a GED, and one with a high school diploma, and no college for either, he is probably going to favor the candidate with the diploma.

And, yes, I do know such a thing.

I understand that there is a lot of hatred of public schooling on here, but the fact remains that most employers prefer high school diplomas to GEDs when you leave college out of the equation.


119 posted on 01/08/2005 6:38:06 PM PST by PokerGod
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To: Kevin OMalley

There's another thing to consider about pushing your kids into community college at age 16: they'll be dealing with older and more mature kids. They'll be dating older and mature kids. Food for thought. If your 16 year old daughter thinks she's facing pressure to have sex by high school boys....


120 posted on 01/08/2005 6:56:58 PM PST by Ciexyz (I use the term Blue Cities, not Blue States. PA is red except for Philly, Pgh & Erie)
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To: PokerGod

"when you leave college out of the equation."

***Please note that the WHOLE POINT of this discussion is to move kids onto college quicker and more efficiently, avoiding the idiotic roadblocks in the way. Focusing on folks with just HS or just GED diplomas is a complete and irrelevant side issue.


121 posted on 01/08/2005 6:58:35 PM PST by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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To: Kevin OMalley
GED and the military.

Before you do the GED with the idea of going into the military, check with the particular branch. My son did the GED route (the State of Illinois would not allow him to take the test until after his age cohort had graduated high school, thanks to the teacher's union).

Air Force and Navy would not, at that time (2000), accept a GED, but the Army and Marines would. So he joined the Army, they sent him to language scool, and now he gets to run around with SF, which is pretty interesting (even when he's not in Iraq!).

122 posted on 01/08/2005 7:10:03 PM PST by cookcounty (-It's THE WHITE HOUSE, not THE WAFFLE HOUSE.)
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To: PokerGod

"he is probably going to favor the candidate with the diploma."

On that we can agree, but it is a little different than your original post.


123 posted on 01/08/2005 7:10:54 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: 1stFreedom

What is the point of a FR diploma? Think about that for a minute, the fact that it is assocated with FR is a big clue.
***The point is to remove the mysterious stigma that seems to be attached to a generic GED, primarily by having a higher standard. I don't understand why the stigma exists, but it does. But it would be kind of like those religious universities where people go because of the higher standards, not for the religious indoctrination. The fact that this diploma is associated with FR was my idea. Here's why I thought it would make sense for FR to adopt it:
1) One of the posters here (Max Combined) said that they printed their own diploma. If they can do it, there should be very little to prevent an organization like FR to do it. And most likely, Max Combined wouldn't be in a position to proxy exams for thousands of students nationwide and support such an endeavor.
2) This could be another way to raise funds and awareness for Free Republic.
3) We are on the cusp of a social revolution, having brought down Dan Rather and leveraged our weight in this last election. This could be one area where we get lots of bang for our buck and make a statement, all the while generating a positive impact to our nation.
4) I see it as staking out a worthwhile position which would affect positive, disruptive and needed change in our educational establishments, all the while helping the public with a useful service.


>>what if you're a child who isn't being taught faith & morals?

Then I doubt you'd be interested in a FR diploma in the first place.
***Such a person would still be interested because of the higher standards associated with the diploma.



I already gave you the answer: home school.
***Please help me to understand your position. I said that
if you're a child who isn't being taught faith & morals, how can you escape...? And your answer was to be home schooled? That simply doesn't make sense and does not acknowledge the condition stated. That's great that there are kids who are being home schooled, and I support it. But not everyone can do it. The way I see it, maybe 5% of people can afford private school, maybe another 5% can arrange for home schooling. It doesn't matter what the real percentages are, they are obviously small minorities compared to the great majority of people who rely on public schools for their kids' education. This idea is for the vast majority who cannot afford either of those expensive options.



All we need are more rabid capitalists (most of whom's moral positions are flaky).
***I agree with you in some ways and cringe at some of the lack of morality & compassion in the rabid capitalist & free trader contingents here on Free Republic, but that would be a side issue.

Admittedly the left is pumping out rabid socialists and communists. But it's like fighting evil with evil, not a real solution.
***I don't see it as fighting evil with evil. I see it as staking out a useful position which would affect positive, disruptive and needed change in our educational establishments. There's no evil in this. Giving people a choice about their future that includes harder work with better incentives is classicly American. We are setting high school prisoners free.


124 posted on 01/08/2005 7:28:18 PM PST by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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To: Ciexyz

This would be an acknowledged issue requiring dialog between the parent and the teenager. There are mitigating circumstances. For one, the 18 year old sleeping with a 16 year old would be subject to statutory rape charges, whereas a father would have no recourse against another 16 year old high school student. And don't think that I wouldn't for one moment file them, just after having a private "discussion" with the guy. If your daughter wants to throw her life away on some loser, she would at least have had some college credits under her belt, better off than a high school dropout with an illegitimate child.


125 posted on 01/08/2005 7:36:18 PM PST by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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To: Max Combined

Hardly. I did not mention college in my original post.


126 posted on 01/08/2005 7:59:58 PM PST by PokerGod
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To: 1stFreedom

"Liberals don't suck on every position, and neither do leftists."

As a rule of thumb they do.

You teach your kid your way, pal, and I'll TEACH, not train, my kid my way.


127 posted on 01/08/2005 8:26:41 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: Max Combined

>>You teach your kid your way, pal, and I'll TEACH, not train, my kid my way.

Well, don't act as if you are part of the solution, PAL.


128 posted on 01/08/2005 8:37:24 PM PST by 1stFreedom
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To: Kevin OMalley

For a later read ...


129 posted on 01/08/2005 9:38:47 PM PST by zeaal (SPREAD TRUTH!)
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To: 1stFreedom

Liberals are good on issues like drug laws and freedom of speech issues.

Conservatives are good on issues like the death penalty and taxes.


130 posted on 01/08/2005 10:41:04 PM PST by PokerGod
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To: Kevin OMalley

Kid genius just
can't get ahead



http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/101278p-91697c.html

By JOE WILLIAMS
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITER


Angela Lipsman, 15, a genius who skipped high school to go to college, can't get her degrees without a diploma.

Angela Lipsman is a really smart kid, but a really, really dumb rule is keeping the 15-year-old from getting a college degree.
Angela, who skipped high school and went straight to college last year, has earned her associate's degree and is on her way to a bachelor's - but she can't have the sheepskins because she never got a high school diploma.

Even worse, the gifted girl's proud dad is being investigated by child protective services for alleged educational neglect - for letting his daughter go to college.

"It's not fair," said Angela, who has a 3.84 grade point average and 71 credits from Borough of Manhattan Community College and Fashion Institute of Technology. "I'm still going to school and I'm still getting an education."

The hard lesson came from an Albany judge who ruled against Angela's age-discrimination suit challenging the state Education Department's edict that kids have to stay in school until age 16 and can't get general equivalency diplomas until they turn 17.

Angela's father, retired teacher Daniel Lipsman, figures she'll have her bachelor's degree wrapped up by the time she turns 17 and will then get three diplomas at once - including the GED.

"It's very demoralizing," said Lipsman, who vowed that he'll "go to prison before my daughter goes to a city high school."

Albany Supreme Court Justice Bernard Malone blamed Lipsman for steering his brainy daughter to college after she completed eighth grade at Public School 187 in Washington Heights.

"Angela was not legally free to skip high school," Malone wrote this week in ruling against Angela.

He noted that Angela could have been declared a home-schooled student and placed in a fast-track program, or she could have attended high school programs that allow students to earn college credits simultaneously.

Dad will appeal

Lipsman said he probably will appeal the decision. But he was still holding out hope the city Education Department would grant his daughter a diploma.

Yesterday, Schools Chancellor Joel Klein offered hope to Angela, who recently learned she has enough transfer credits for an associate's degree from Albany-based Excelsior College.

"We are evaluating the student's college credits to determine whether the credits may be applied toward a high school diploma," Klein said in a written statement.

Originally published on July 16, 2003


131 posted on 01/09/2005 12:07:33 AM PST by Kevmo (Charter member, "What Was My Login club")
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To: Kevin OMalley; TxBec

I found this on TxBec's home page here in Free Republic.



Allowing gifted students to skip high school in Calfornia

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/702562/posts







In addition, here is an interesting proposal from Michigan:

http://www.bridges4kids.org/articles/4-04/MIRS4-23-04.html#top



Smart Kid? Skip High School
MIRS, April 23, 2004
For more articles like this visit http://www.bridges4kids.org.



It's always been assumed that dropping out of high school is a bad thing, but a West Michigan lawmaker has a new twist on the drop out situation with the state picking up the tab.

Rep. Jack Hoogendyk (R-Portage) is finalizing legislation that would allow advanced students to end their high school career after their sophomore year and enter community college or a four-year university with the state paying for the first two yeas of that higher education.

"If you have a motivated son or daughter at home and they want to get moving with their lives and high school is not that important to them, they certainly will have that opportunity," he said.

Funding for this unique program would come by shifting K-12 funds that would go for the 11th and 12th grades and using it pay for kid's college tuition, books and fees. Hoogendyk said that will actually save money for the state because, in most cases, the foundation grant is higher than the tuition in a J.C. or four-year school.

Plus he argues the concept fits in with the Granholm administration's goal of training more students for jobs of the future.

"What will this do for Michigan? I believe it will get more kids in college quicker and will help the governor meet her goals of getting more of children through college and ready for the work force," he contends.

Hoogendyk is calling his bill the Michigan Accelerated College Education Act (MI-ACE) and is eligible to any 15-to 19-year-old who has completed two years of high school or earned high scores on the ACT or SAT.

HB 5791 has been referred to the House Higher Education Committee for review and consideration.


132 posted on 01/09/2005 12:15:59 AM PST by Kevmo (Charter member, "What Was My Login club")
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To: DameAutour

People are rooting for you on another thread, DameAutour.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1316944/posts?q=1&&page=521#521

Also, this comment was worthy of repeating:

To: BobL
There is nothing wrong or stigmatic about a GED. In fact the newly re-elected Governor of the State of Delaware has a GED



407 posted on 01/09/2005 8:12:40 AM PST by Gabz
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133 posted on 01/09/2005 11:39:06 AM PST by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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To: Kevin OMalley
Watching with great interest...

I'm currently homeschooling 3 boys, with my 11-year-old routinely doing high-school-level work.

High school was a GREAT bore to me, even though I did well. My family moved every year or two, and although I had straight A's, I was always having to make up lower-level "required" courses unique to that particular school district or state, which I deemed to be a great waste of time. (My American Government class would not count for the required State Government class; two years of History classes did not meet the requirements for a freshman-level World History class in another state. It was maddening.)

My senior year I did the fast-track thing, taking community college classes that also counted toward my high school credits. I also CLEPed a few math and language courses, so I started college at 17 with 18 credits under my belt.

If I could have skipped high school altogether, or even just two years of it, I would have most certainly chosen to do that. If my children were able to take advantage of an opportunity like this, I believe it could be extremely beneficial to them.

Also, a friend of my sister's has two daughters that were homeschooled. Both started community college classes at 15, transferred to a Top Tier school, and got their bachelors degrees at 18 and 19. One now owns her own business, another works for a major firm in another city. I think the employers in the second case looked at the initiative, the college grades, and the girl's achievements rather than lack of a high school diploma.

Yes, this idea intrigues me very much. I shall be keeping a close eye on this (and related) threads.

134 posted on 01/09/2005 12:27:35 PM PST by shezza
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To: 1stFreedom
"Well, don't act as if you are part of the solution, PAL."

Don't act as though you are the final arbiter as to who is and who is not part of the solution, bub.
135 posted on 01/09/2005 12:33:52 PM PST by Max Combined
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To: 1stFreedom

"What is the point of a FR diploma? Think about that for a minute, the fact that it is assocated with FR is a big clue. "

***One other thing. I would support this program, albeit a little less enthusiastically but support it nonetheless, if it were offered by Democratic Underground. Something tells me that they wouldn't even touch such a program with a ten foot pole because they know that it would be an acknowlegement of the terrible condition that our high schools are in. But if they did offer it, more power to them. We could have competing DU and FR high school diplomas, with appropriate tracking of results or whatever. Of course, the sound of a "Free Republic High School Diploma" is more attractive versus "Democratic Underground High School Diploma" -- they would probably have to utilize some other name. ;-)

I know what liberals fear about such a program: The first to take advantage of it are the brightest students. Then the middle tier overachievers would feel compelled to follow them because of "peer pressure" or pressure from parents or whatever, hoping not to appear noncompetitive. If kids were to take advantage of this in very large numbers, the decaying high school administrations in this country could be stuck with the 2nd tier of students and less funding. This is probably a bit of slippery slope reasoning but I detect the fear anyways. We could start a stampede.

That's why I would support some kind of funding follower setup such as has been suggested in Michigan.


136 posted on 01/09/2005 1:21:40 PM PST by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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To: DeFault User

"Many have observed that a bachelor's degree is probably equal to what a high school diploma was 40 years ago. That's how much it's been dumbed down. "

BINGO!

I went to high school in the early 60's. It was a small public school in a small town, but it was in the age of accountability. There were real consequences for bad behavior. The teachers were probably better educated than what we have today. Parents weren't suing the school district because their little Johnny or Susie couldn't wear their t-shirts or because they felt "persecuted" in a game of dodge ball or whatever.

The dumbing down to the lowest common denominator has not served our schools well. I do believe that my high school education is the equivalent to a college degree today. I am amazed at the number of educated fools with alphabet soup after their names.

I think that Fr. Guido Sarducci had it right. Might as well go the "Five Minute University" route. :) Anyone remember that?

As far as skipping high school and going directly to college, I think it is a bad idea. Advanced courses, yes. But these are still children in the process of growing up and dealing with puberty. They are not emotionally ready for college, IMO. They still need to learn social interaction with their peers.

What is so great about graduating from college at 18 or 19? Childhood is so short. It is a long time that one is an adult and in the working world.


137 posted on 01/09/2005 1:26:47 PM PST by dolander2002 (I do not have ADD, I just...oh, look, a birdie!)
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To: dolander2002

"But these are still children in the process of growing up and dealing with puberty. They are not emotionally ready for college, IMO. They still need to learn social interaction with their peers. "

***Boy, it probably HAS been a long time since you set foot on a high school campus. The social interaction kids "enjoy" today in high school is what the average navy sailor experiences the first time he crosses the equator: downright hazing. If you think that is a positive thing, something is truly misfiring upstairs. I found college to be a much more cordial environment than high school. I probably STILL am not "emotionally ready" to deal with high school, whatever that means.

That position is just plain wrongheaded. I think the kids should have their own choice.


138 posted on 01/09/2005 1:48:16 PM PST by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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To: Kevin OMalley

I don't know where or when you went to high school, but it seems that you had an unpleasant experience. It seems you did not learn the social skills necessary to formulate a more thoughtful reply to my post. I infer from your reply that you were picked on in high school therefore you have come to the conclusion that ALL high schools are corrupt and demeaning to kids.

Kids should have some input, but I think it is up to responsible parents to decide what is best for their children.

I suggest you visit several high schools in small towns in the south. Start with Summerville, SC.


139 posted on 01/09/2005 2:33:35 PM PST by dolander2002 (I do not have ADD, I just...oh, look, a birdie!)
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To: dolander2002

I don't know where or when you went to high school,
***Geez, that proves you didn't read through the thread AT ALL. It's right up in there. So, you just came right on over and started spouting off your IMO garbage without reading through the thread. Why should we listen to someone who hasn't bothered to take the time to come up to speed nor learn the issues being discussed?


but it seems that you had an unpleasant experience.
***Aye. It was so bad they made a hit movie about my high school. But you wouldn't know about it, not having read the thread. Thank you for being obvious, though.



It seems you did not learn the social skills necessary to formulate a more thoughtful reply to my post.
***If you had bothered to read through this thread you would have seen that I do have the social skills necessary to formulate thoughtful replies. But your obvious regurgitated, unthinking slop is not worth a "thoughtful" reply. The hundreds of thousands of kids who are looking for a way out of the drudgery they're experiencing at high school and who want to go on to college will see your idiocy for what it is. It is unquantifiable garbage. It is obvious from your post that you did not gain the social skills suggested in the beginner's FAQ and read through the posts before commenting. That makes you a hypocrite as well.


I infer from your reply that you were picked on in high school
***BZZZZT wrong. I was not necessarily picked on in high school. I was in advanced classes, usually the top of my class, I was an athlete. I was just wasting my time, as are MOST of the high school kids today. But the fact was that I saw a lot of kids getting picked on, and they still are, which is what passes for "getting socialized". What a gigantic crock of horse manure.

therefore you have come to the conclusion that ALL high schools are corrupt and demeaning to kids.
***Fascinating that you tell me what conclusion I have come to. Amazing that you can "infer" and that you can tell me what I conclude. Please tell me what I think about my neighbor across the street. If you can't do that, please do not try to read my mind, just read my posts. Show me where I said that "ALL high schools are corrupt and demeaning?" Geez, where did you come from?

Kids should have some input,
***It's THEIR life, they should have more than just SOME input.

but I think it is up to responsible parents to decide what is best for their children.
***You'd be amazed how many "responsible" parents have no idea what's happening in schools today. Then they put on their horse blinders and earmuffs and don't listen to their children when they come home with horror stories. Then, after the kids have wasted 4 years of their lives and go on to community college & burn out from all the nonsense, the parents wonder what happened. After all, the kid went to a "good" high school.


I suggest you visit several high schools in small towns in the south. Start with Summerville, SC.
***I'd be more than happy to do so. Please send me the airplane ticket and hotel voucher, meals would be nice as well. My request for you is much simpler: PLEASE read through the thread BEFORE posting, and on top of that please read the introductory FAQ for this great forum. Oh, and here is a litmus test for the future. Once kids have the freedom to move on to college, how many of them will do so in Summerville, SC? If the high school is so great, why are they compelling kids to stick around? What do they have to lose?


140 posted on 01/09/2005 5:05:05 PM PST by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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To: dolander2002; Kevin OMalley
Perhaps you both will agree that many, if not most, high schools are poorly run academic disasters. Avoiding violence is a real problem here locally, never mind getting an education. The District moves "students" who have committed felonies from one high school to another.

Unfortunately, it does not seem politically correct to separate serious students from the thugs. If I had a magic wand, I'd put the problems in a boot camp setup with ex-Marine drill instructors, who could teach their pupils in any way they saw fit, as long as they didn't leave permanent scars or injuries.

But we have to deal with what we have. Home schooling by some, private school for others and perhaps someday vouchers to allow choice and promote excellence.

My wife teaches in community college and gets some home-schoolers who are taking advanced courses their parents can't teach. Here they can go for free but they are the last to register and must be at least 16. They don't participate in campus life (what little there is in community college) so I don't see it as a threatening atmosphere.

Her classes have students from 16 to 70. Much of the difference between the oldest students and the college freshmen is in their prior education. Since she teaches a foreign language, she finds that she often has to teach the younger students English grammar. (They have no clue about the structure of English.) The older ones are aghast at the ignorance of the younger ones although most of the home-schoolers have had better preparation.
141 posted on 01/09/2005 5:29:14 PM PST by DeFault User
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To: BobL

Cool. I was pretty darn confused.

I meant more the content of math than the level of competence that will be tolerated.

But heck you make a good point.


142 posted on 01/09/2005 5:40:19 PM PST by demecleze
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To: Kevin OMalley

When I was in high school it was a traditional for Seniors to spend their last few weeks scrambling around looking for the few extra units they needed to fulfill their graduation requirements. It always seemed to come as a shock to them that they were short.

My parents, however, insisted that I take a full schedule every year and actually pass my classes. Thus I entered my senior year needing only one required, and one elective class. I could have finished this up in one semester. But when I suggested to my mother that I could graduate early I got a resounding, "NO!"

I took two full semesters of classes instead. I do understand why my mother wanted me to remain in high school. I was almost a year younger than my fellow classmates and was still only seventeen when I entered college.

I have to wonder if leaving high school early and going on to college wouldn't have been the better choice.


143 posted on 01/09/2005 6:03:40 PM PST by redheadtoo
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To: Kevin OMalley
Our daughter just started her first Community College course last week. It's a two week Writing class that meets every day from 8-noon. She'll get a semester's credit for it!

She's a homeschooled Junior, and in the Spring semester will take Intro Chemistry, which is essentially a high school level Chem course, but one which is required of ALL students who have not had hs Chem. and want to take the Chem Class with the lab work. When she has completed the Chem with the Lab, she'll go on to take Physics. I'm using the Comm. Coll. for those courses, like the Sciences, which are more difficult to manage at home because of restrictions on buying lab supplies, chemicals, etc.

I have her registered with a high school in Maine for transcript and diploma purposes. The school considers a one semester college course as a full year's high school credit, so the college classes are doing double duty for both high school and college credit!

144 posted on 01/09/2005 6:13:26 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: DameAutour
So glad you got the chance to teach yourself Alg. 2. When our #2 son was in the seventh grade, he was bored with the Math at the Catholic school he attended, so Sir SuziQ taught him Alg. 1 at home. In the 8th grade, he got the opportunity to go to the local Catholic all boys school to take Algebra 1. He, and two girls in his class, were chosen to go., but as he'd already had Alg. 1, we wanted him to take Alg. 2. The head of the Math Dept. was a friend of ours so he arranged for there to be an Alg. 2 class at the same time as the Alg. 1 class the girls would attend. He passed with flying colors, and over the summer taught himself Geometry, passed the final given to the summer school students, and started the ninth grade in Pre-Calculus. He took AP Calculus BC in his soph. year, and in his Junior year, took advantage of the opportunity to take Math at Holy Cross college! By the time his Senior year rolled around, he was tired of going back and forth from the college to the school, that he didn't take any math at all!

Both our older sons attended that Catholic high school, and our youngest son is enrolled there now. It is a rigorous school, and it instills responsibility in the boys so they come out (most of them) well behaved young men.

Our daughter didn't want to return to school, so she'll be finishing up high school in 2006, with several college classes under her belt!

145 posted on 01/09/2005 6:28:43 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: Motherbear

In some states, a sixteen year old CANNOT take the GED. Otherwise, there would be far too many smart kids dropping out and going directly to college. The teacher unions don't allow it.
***I think in California it's probably true as well, unless the kid drops out of high school. It's a bizarre twist, but we might be able to take advantage of it.

I think most states have laws that kids can't take the GED before their normal graduation time.
***Hopefully you found the right loophole below.


The "other" best option, ") would be to call oneself a homeschool student, and take "dual track" courses at the local community college. These courses would be applied to his high school graduation and his future college degree. This is certainly legal in my state. I think you can take up to 29 hours this way, but I'm not sure as to the exact amount.
***So, once a kid has 29 hours under his belt, he's wasting his time if he doesn't take the GED and move onto college?



146 posted on 01/09/2005 6:50:17 PM PST by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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To: DeFault User

"Unfortunately, it does not seem politically correct to separate serious students from the thugs."
***Well, this forum is one of the last places one would look for politically correct thinking. However, this proposal drives right down the middle of sensible economics, freedom of choice, hard work generating rewards, and mainstream americans who want to push themselves. It's simply the right thing to do.


147 posted on 01/09/2005 8:29:42 PM PST by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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To: Kevin OMalley

Oh, I don't disagree with your proposal, but it would still only solve the problem for a minority of students.


148 posted on 01/09/2005 8:38:15 PM PST by DeFault User
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To: DeFault User

"it would still only solve the problem for a minority of students."
***I doubt that, but I'll take it. A few years ago there was a debate on vouchers where some catholic priest was challenged by the liberal opposition. They kept saying that the problem was public schools were saddled with the riffraff students, the worst of the bunch. The priest was asked if he would take the lowest 5% as a test of whether the voucher system would work. He said, "I'll take that challenge." The liberals had nothing to say after that, and had to completely change tactics. So I'll take your challenge of helping out a minority of students.


149 posted on 01/09/2005 9:27:18 PM PST by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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To: dolander2002

"I suggest you visit several high schools in small towns in the south. Start with Summerville, SC."

***How about if I start with Irmo High School in Columbia?

Islamist Threat to Public Schools in Columbia, South Carolina?


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1300024/posts?page=1


150 posted on 01/09/2005 11:23:45 PM PST by Kevin OMalley (No, not Freeper#95235, Freeper #1165: Charter member, What Was My Login Club.)
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