Proposed Bill in Virginia will make you a criminal if you fail to report a miscarriage.

Virginia State Legislature ^ | 1/7/04 | James Cosgrove

[SilentServiceCPO]

Be it enacted by the General Assembly of Virginia:

1. That § 32.1-264 of the Code of Virginia is amended and reenacted as follows:... When a fetal death occurs without medical attendance, it shall be the woman's responsibility to report the death to the law-enforcement agency in the jurisdiction of which the delivery occurs within 12 hours after the delivery. A violation of this section shall be punishable as a Class 1 misdemeanor.

[SilentServiceCPO]

This text is from a proposed bill that will be sent to the House floor in Virginia on 12 January. Rep. Cosgrove's Bill will make it a crime if a woman fails to report a spontaneous miscarriage to the Police within 12 hours. The punishment is 12 months in jail and a $2500 fine. I can't fathom this complete invasion of privacy. The required data you must submit includes Name, SSN, marital status, race, and education level of the mother as well as the weight, age, and sex of fetus. Rep. Cosgrove has reportedly stated that the purpose of this bill is to prevent "trashcan babies" that women may abandon after birth, but that doesn't make sense; this bill specifically staes that it applies only to a fetus that is born dead, and it doesn't make any differentiation as to the age of the fetus. In addition, other portions of the bill require doctors or medical examiners to file reports if they are involved, but they get 24 hours and there are no criminal penalties for them if they fail. One final insult, if you choose to "end the pregnancy" (kill the baby legally), then you get to retain your privacy, the abortion clinic will file the report and they get to leave out your name and personal data. This Bill can't be allowed to pass. I am stunned by this from the guy that represents me in the State Assembly and he will get an email box-full. If any other Virginians agree, you can email Rep Cosgrove at Del_Cosgrove@house.state.va.us

[Nina89]

That is a stupid bill and it is stepping on peoples privacy, you have to practically tell your whole life's story. I'm glad I live in Michigan and not Virginia

[spower]

Yeah! Michigan doesn't have any stupid laws.

[bitt]

stupid not only because of the privacy issue...

talk to any woman who is a mother and you'll find that at least 50% seem to have miscarried at least once...

you can't even see a doctor until after the third month...unless you are a high risk, etc.

[television is just wrong]

What if you don't know about it? I had a grandma who passed away, after the autopsy they found a calcified fetus in her uterus. Gross, but it was never born. Don't know how long it was there?

[NonValueAdded]

Does it include miscarriages of justice?

[Rudder]

When a fetal death occurs without medical attendance, it shall be the woman's responsibility to report the death to the law-enforcement agency

Nahhh...stupid law.

[SilentServiceCPO]

Think about this... Who do you report this to? Does a cop show up while you are still in terrible pain, cramping and bleeding, to take "just the facts". And think of the 21 year old young wife, her Sailor or Soldier husband out to sea or standing duty, having to face a gruff, impersonal police officer in the middle of the night all alone. If she waits 12 hours until her husband comes home, then she is a criminal.

[afnamvet]

Lunacy of government to the nth degree.

[Servant of the 9]

What idiocy.

In the first place, most miscarriages are in the first week or two of gestation and the woman often doesn't know that she is pregnant or that she miscarried.

In the second place, it's none of their damned business.

SO9

[bitt]

'I am stunned by this from the guy that represents me in the State Assembly and he will get an email box-full. If any other Virginians agree, you can email Rep Cosgrove at Del_Cosgrove@house.state.va.us'

Wonder what the women who work in his office had to say as they were 'typing up' his little Bill?

"Hey Del!! Are you nuts???"

[rmmcdaniell]

Its nonsense like this coming from pro-lifers that will allow the abortionists to paint pro-lifers even more as extremists.

The people trying to get this bill passed are cut from the same cloth as the rabid-drug warriors, and those who want to create a federal censorship commision. These authoritarians are the most damaging to the conservative movement.

[pepperdog]

I think Rep. Del has been taking stupid pills. This is beyond ridiculous. Hope you folks in Virginia will let him hear about it.

[SilentServiceCPO]

Exactly, Very well said. I actually first saw this following a link from a link from a link... and saw a comment about it posted on a "less than conservative" site with some disparaging commentary about Republicans. While I can't agree with 99.9% of what else I saw there, this really struck a chord with me, both because of the privacy issue and because it reflects so poorly upon what I know and believe in my heart to be true conservatism. If we don't hold the line against some of the more radical elements ourselves, we risk getting lumped in with them and all painted as extremists.

[Teslas Pigeon]

Does anyone besides Cosgrove support this bill? As you point out the one exception is if there is an abortion by a doc, then that's fine, nothing has to be reported.

[SilentServiceCPO]

The bill as posted on the VA State web site doesn't list any co-sponsors, but it got through commitee and is going to the House floor on Wednesday.

[mrsmith]

"this bill specifically staes that it applies only to a fetus that is born dead"

I believe it is meant to apply only to deaths after the twentieth week.

In the legislation that allowed for birth certificates for children born dead twenty weeks was some kind of cutoff from the Board of Health for fetal deaths.

I admit the law doesn't seem clear about that though.

[ladylib]

Phone his office. Sometimes the staff just ignores e-mails.
It's also effective to write a letter. This is nuts. How did it ever get out of committee?

[KoRn]

In VA a baby dead before 17 weeks is considered a miscarriage. After 17 weeks it's considered 'born dead' and a death certificate has to be issued.

So says my wife who is an RN here in VA, and is also pregnant lol.

[jwalsh07]

This is the current law in Virginia and it only concerns live births and abortions, not miscarriages. To wit:

§ 32.1-264. Reports of fetal deaths; medical certification; investigation by medical examiner; confidentiality of information concerning abortions.

Why don't you send a letter of apology to pro lifers and Cosgrove and stop frequenting "kill'em on the way out" websites.

[jwalsh07]

A. A fetal death report for each fetal death which occurs in this Commonwealth shall be filed, on a form furnished by the State Registrar, with the registrar of the district in which the delivery occurred or the abortion was performed within three days after such delivery or abortion and shall be registered with such registrar if it has been completed and filed in accordance with this section; provided that:

Seems pretty clear to me.

[lodwick]

Missed period?

Die, commrade.

Welcome to the PrisonPlanet.com

[jwalsh07]

Amend this:This is the current law in Virginia and it only concerns live births and abortions, not miscarriages.

To this: This is the current law in Virginia and it only concerns deliveries and abortions, not miscarriages.

[SilentServiceCPO]

§ 32.1-249. Definitions:... 2. "Fetal death" means death prior to the complete expulsion or extraction from its mother of a product of human conception, regardless of the duration of pregnancy; death is indicated by the fact that after such expulsion or extraction the fetus does not breathe or show any other evidence of life such as beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles. I understand your point, and anyone with common sense would say that criminal penalties shouldn't apply, but the legal definition of "Fetal Death" in VA specifically states that duration of pregnancy is irrelevant. Link is here: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+32.1-249

[mrsmith]

"The 20-week cutoff is based on the Board of Health's definition of fetal death, as opposed to miscarriage, Byron said. Twenty weeks is also after the cutoff for abortions. "

But I'm familiar with some RNs so if one says 17 weeks, then it's 17 weeks!

BTW: congratulations and keep up the good work! The world needs all the Virginians it can get.

[ShadowDancer]

This is horrid and I swear to God, I better not hear from one whack job about how abortion makes this okay.

[cake_crumb]

"talk to any woman who is a mother and you'll find that at least 50% seem to have miscarried at least once... "

I'm one of them. This sounds like a bad bill. It won't stop mothers from sticking live babies in the garbage to die, which is murder and obviously illegal. It'll make the lives of law abiding young women, heart broken aftr losing a shild, that much more miserable.

[ShadowDancer]

Its nonsense like this coming from pro-lifers that will allow the abortionists to paint pro-lifers even more as extremists

Damned right.

[Nataku X]

It has been estimated that more than half of all fertilized eggs end up in miscarriage. A lot of eggs naturally just don't implant (yes, even without BC) and the woman never notices.

[KoRn]

Thanks! By the way, the wife tells me that's the way they do at her hospital. It could be a county/city rule, who knows. I DO KNOW she has been wrong before hehe....don't tell her I said that though.

[cake_crumb]

Correcton: "It'll make the lives of law abiding young women, heart broken aftr after losing a shild child, that much more miserable."

Caffeination is our friend....and I hate using this desk, it's dark over here and the keyboard is different.

[SilentServiceCPO]

I am aware of the current law, what this thread is about is a proposed ammendment to the law the provides for criminal penalties for a woman who suffers an unattended fetal death (miscarriage falls into this category regardless of the intentions of the good Delegate) and fails to report this to the police within twelve hours of the event.

Read the link above if you doubt this. And also, in VA, "fetal death", as defined by law, is independant of the gestational age of the baby. So, I will not be writing a letter of apology to Cosgrove or anyone else. I actually expect my representatives to not make such glaring errors (of course, assuming that it is not his intention to place grieving mothers in jail for failing to call the cops within 12 hours)

[SilentServiceCPO]

Congratulations!

[mrsmith]

That certainly sounds like Cosgrove has made an error in terminology.

[KoRn]

Thanks! We are having a boy!!!!! This was the final try....after 3 girls AAHHHHRRRRGGG!!!!!!

[DoughtyOne]

Dang, I was certain it was the umpteenth degree.

[SilentServiceCPO]

LOL, My Dad wanted a girl so bad. He gave up after four boys though:-)

[RecallMoran]

I think this is a no brainer. What woman (in her right mind) doesn't talk to her dr. at miscarraige? They have to examine you to see if everything went ok. If not they have to do a dnc and most of the time after the 9th week they have to do a dnc anyway. Secondly, you don't wait till 3 months anymore to see a dr., you can get a sonogram immediately and start blood testing, fetal monitoring etc as early as 6 weeks or sooner. I think this might have something to do with the abortion pill and the women's deaths it is causing. It's not really and invasion of privacy if the dr. reports it and this way they can collect some stats on RU-289 or whatever the number is.

[Ellesu]

Congratulations! I had 2 girls and then a boy, Boys are so much easier which makes it nice since he is the last one and she/both of you will be tired!


On this issue, don't most women go to their DR. after a miscarriage and surely he fills out paperwork needed for state records such as these? Why do the police have to be involved?

[SilentServiceCPO]

I certainly hope so. I love living in Chesapeake in part because of the political atmosphere, not in spite of it. His office has reportedly said that the intention of this amendment is to prevent the abandonment of babies after birth. However, Virginia already has a "Safe Haven" law and plenty of Child Endangerment laws on the books. Also, this law would only apply to baby (fetus, to some) born dead, so abandonment is not an issue at that point. I sincerely hope that this is just a case of legislative incompetence and not a serious attempt to invade the privacy of Virginians by criminalizing what is already a traumatic experience for the families involved.

[KoRn]

"LOL, My Dad wanted a girl so bad. He gave up after four boys though:-)"

After #3 I was sure it was an impossibility to break the trend.

[KoRn]

"On this issue, don't most women go to their DR. after a miscarriage and surely he fills out paperwork needed for state records such as these? Why do the police have to be involved?"

Even if they aren't far along it's always a good idea for a woman in such a situation to go to her doctor. A DNC will most likely need to be done, otherwise they will be at risk for a bad infection.

[SilentServiceCPO]

You're right, Doctors already do make these reports, it is already the law in Virginia (as well as in most other States). What is insipid about this Bill is that it makes it a CRIME for a woman who fails to call the police within twelve hours if she suffers a miscarriage at home. She can go to jail for a year and pay a $2500 fine if she misses the 12 hour deadline. So a woman has a miscarriage at 9:00 p.m., she is distraught and crying, she calls her husband, who works the night shift, he comes home and they cry, hug and talk all night. She falls asleep and wakes up at 10:00 a.m. By the wording of this law, she can be sentenced to a year in jail for not calling the police within twelve hours. I know it seems mind-boggling, but that is the way it is written.

[Rubber_Duckie_27]

It's an invasion of privacy to demand that a woman grieving the loss of her baby report to the police like some sort of criminal. It's none of the government's business if someone miscarries. Sure, she'll probably see her doctor, but it should end there.

I really hope the Representative who introduced this bill doesn't realize that the VA state law apparently includes spontaneous miscarriage as "unattended fetal death." If he genuinely means to make women suffering such an emotionally and often physically painful experience -that is NO fault of her own - report this to the government then he's just sick.

[SilentServiceCPO]

My parents were't going to risk number five, four hell-raisers was enough.

[muir_redwoods]

Does this mean a 15 year-old "woman" would have to tell her parents about an accidental miscarriage but not an intentional abortion?

[SilentServiceCPO]

Wow,
I didn't even think of that. However, Virginia has a Parental Notification Law already, so that situation couldn't occur.

[valkyrieanne]

The bill's wording isn't clear at all. A "fetus" normally is medically defined as an unborn child after 12 weeks. But commonly it's defined that if the child dies after 20 weeks, it's not considered a miscarriage anymore, but a stillbirth. However, this particular bill does NOT specify any of these terms, so theoretically women could be punished for not reporting an earlier miscarriage. Considering that many early miscarriages occur silently (the woman just perceives it as an especially heavy period), this bill is biologically stupid.

[SilentServiceCPO]

Actually, here in Virginia our legislature has taken the liberty of defining "fetal death" for us. See post 24 for the except and link to the actual state code. Fetal Death in this bill is defined as the death of the "product of conception" regardless of the duration of the pregnancy, so even if a woman was only a few weeks pregnant, then this law would apply to her.

[jwalsh07]

I don't think the Virginia General Assembly is stupid enough to intentionally write a law that is thoroughly unenforceable and stupid to begin with.

But I won't argue the point that the law and their definition of "fetal death" accord with each other either. The law specifically references "delivery and abortion" but neither are defined in the section. The definitions are what they say you are although the allusion to heartbeat necessarily rules out early miscarriages because there is no heartbeat until after 5 weeks and even then you couldn't listen to one with a stethoscope until maybe 12 weeks.

So when all is said and done, I think you should bust his chops but not because he wants to make the lives of women who have suffered miscarriages miserable, but because that section of the code stinks.