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(Mark) Thatcher fined over 'coup plot'
BBC ^ | 13 January 2005

Posted on 01/13/2005 5:27:39 AM PST by kipita

Sir Mark Thatcher has pleaded guilty in South Africa over his part in an alleged coup plot in Equatorial Guinea.

The son of former UK Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher was fined three million rand (£265,000) and received a four-year suspended jail sentence.

Sir Mark, who denies any knowledge of the plot, agreed a plea bargain with prosecutors.

He admitted breaking anti-mercenary legislation in South Africa by agreeing to finance a helicopter.

It has been reported the businessman said he did not know the helicopter's alleged purpose - that it was to be used in the coup attempt, instead believing it was to be used as an air ambulance.

Speaking outside court, an emotional Sir Mark said: "There is no price too high for me to pay to be reunited with my family and I am sure all of you who are husbands and fathers would agree with that."

Baroness Thatcher also expressed her relief at the outcome, saying: "This has been a difficult time for all of the family - obviously I am delighted that it has been brought to an end.

"I know that what matters to Mark now is to be reunited with Diane and the children as soon as possible."

Her son will now be able to leave South Africa for the first time in five months.

But the Equatorial Guinea authorities are likely to continue pressing for the opportunity to question him.

If Sir Mark was unable to pay the South African fine, he would incur a five-year prison sentence, with his four-year suspended sentence on top of that.

Jail terms

Meanwhile, the Zimbabwean lawyer for a close friend of Sir Mark accused of leading the alleged coup plot, former SAS officer Simon Mann, says that his jail term has been reduced from seven years to four by a court in Harare.

Mann was last year found guilty of illegally buying weapons in Zimbabwe, which were allegedly intended to be used in the Equatorial Guinea coup plot.

A further 14 men were found guilty in Equatorial Guinea of being involved in the alleged plot to overthrow President Teodoro Obiang Nguema Mbasogo, who has ruled Africa's third-largest oil producer for the past 25 years.

Nick du Toit was jailed for 34 years, while opposition leader Severo Moto, who is in exile in Spain, was given 63 years in absentia.

Both men escaped the death penalty demanded by the prosecution.

Sir Mark, 51, was arrested in August at his home in South Africa and released on bail.

News of Thursday's hearing in Cape Town came as a surprise. The defendant was not expected back in court until 18 February.

After his plea, his lawyers released a statement saying: "It should be noted that Sir Mark was not charged with any involvement in the attempted coup d'etat in Equatorial Guinea.

"The plea bargain was entered into solely as a result of his financing of the charter of a helicopter in circumstances where he should have exercised more caution."

Sipho Ngwema, a spokesman for South Africa's Directorate of Special Investigations, also known as the Scorpions, said Sir Mark had promised to co-operate with South African investigators.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Government
KEYWORDS: africa; coupplot; equatorialguinea; markthatcher; thatcher
Question - What do you do when there is a potential Sadaam and the country has oil? I agree with what he did. Some background...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/country_profiles/1023151.stm

1 posted on 01/13/2005 5:27:39 AM PST by kipita
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To: kipita
CHECK OUT THIS PREVIOUS POST:

MARK) THATCHER ADMITS BANKROLLING COUP (JUST BREAKING!)

2 posted on 01/13/2005 6:25:30 AM PST by areafiftyone (Democrats = the hamster is dead but the wheel is still spinning)
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To: areafiftyone

I though putting in "Equatorial Guinea" as a key word would have found any postings. Maybe this post should be removed. However, having read your initial post and after following the story for several months, I know he isn't a Saint but how do governments deal with Sadaam Jrs around the planet?


3 posted on 01/13/2005 6:53:54 AM PST by kipita (Rebel the proletariat response to Aristocracy and Exploitation.)
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To: kipita

I was surprised that he is getting away with this too. I feel sorry for his mom though.


4 posted on 01/13/2005 7:04:12 AM PST by areafiftyone (Democrats = the hamster is dead but the wheel is still spinning)
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To: kipita
Question - What do you do when there is a potential Sadaam and the country has oil? I agree with what he did.

I for one do not agree with what he did. For one it must be causing additional stress to his (great) mom, who is not in a state of health that can easily handle the stress of not knowing what was to become of her son. Secondly coup de tats almost always ends up with a result that was far worse than what was there before. Just ask the CIA and the coup 'experiments' they tried during the Cold War. IT is a rare thing for a coup to work well in the mid to long term. Now imagine the messes that would be created by private coup attempts! There is nothing good in what this guy did.

Just because a nation 'has oil' and a 'potential Saddam' doesn't mean private citizens should be bankrolling ill-thought coup de tat attempts (so ill thought that they could even commence the coup before getting caught).

5 posted on 01/13/2005 8:42:47 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: spetznaz
so ill thought that they could even commence = so ill thought that they could NOT even commence
6 posted on 01/13/2005 8:44:23 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: spetznaz

So it's best to deal with the bastard in place and look the other way (France-Europe).


7 posted on 01/13/2005 9:30:37 AM PST by kipita (Rebel the proletariat response to Aristocracy and Exploitation.)
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To: kipita
So it's best to deal with the bastard in place and look the other way (France-Europe).

I did not say that. Nowhere in my post did i say that it is 'best to deal with the bastard in place and look the other way ala France and Europe.' What i did say was that private citizens financing coup de tats is one of the best examples of stupidity run amok one can find.

And since in your prior post you had used the analogy of an oil rich nation and Saddam let me use those as well. Saddam was a monster, and Iraq had oil. Does that mean that you, Kipita, a private citizen, should have sought to organize a coup to overthrow Saddam? After all, he was a monster that killed hundreds of thousands (if not millions once you include the war with Iran) and subjugated thousands to boundless oppression. And if not (by the way the government, US govt, would have locked you away forever if you tried such a thing) why is it 'nice' for this guy to do it?

Privately funded coups only lead to misery. And again, if this guy and his cronies were not even able to keep the coup secret before it even got started how in goodness name would they have managed to instill leadership if the coup had succeeded? If they were so inept as not to be able to even start there little endeavor how would they have managed to run a freaking country?

France and old Europe are senile nations (to a large extent), but trying to link their senility to my assertion that private coups are STUPID is grabbing at straws.

8 posted on 01/13/2005 10:49:29 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: spetznaz
There little endeavor = Their little endeavor.

Typos!!!!

9 posted on 01/13/2005 10:51:07 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: Owl_Eagle; Sam's Army
Sir Mark Thatcher has pleaded guilty in South Africa over his part in an alleged coup plot in Equatorial Guinea.

As much as I like his mother, I hope this fargin' bastage gets some serious jail time. I was involved in a really good chance to help out the people of this tiny nation, right up until his coup attempt that is...

It seems that the former finance minister of Equatorial Guinea, Manute Bol Ndukwe Kalu, or "Fred" as he was known to his friends and family, had safeguarded billions of dollars in the First National Bank of Malabo following the disputed national elections in 2000. President Obian Nguem Mbasogo reportedly did not allow for an entirely free and honest election, and when Fred started to talk to U.N. observers, his life and those of his family were threatened.

After Fred's dissapearance, his daughter, Sade Moto Mfoto Kalu, or "Judy" as she's affectionately known, sent out a worldwide plea via the Internet to help her save the country's last few billions before President Mbasogo could lay claim to them. I sent Judy my U.S. bank account information last fall as requested, wanting desperately to help these poor people in any way I could, only to read in horror the news of Mark Thatcher's coup attempt. Some may call me optimistic and naive for still believing that the funds will arrive any day, but I really hope they do since for some reason my direct deposit doesn't seem to be working as evidenced by the fact that I'm now six months behind on my mortgage and car payments and my account balance is constantly reading $0. But please don't misunderstand me by thinking I would use these funds for personal reasons; I've promised Judy that I will pay back any money that I may have to borrow.

And no, this was not a scam - those bogus e-mails originate in Nigeria, not Equatorial Guinea. They're totally different countries.

10 posted on 01/13/2005 11:40:25 AM PST by HenryLeeII (Democrats have helped kill more Americans than the Soviets and Nazis combined!)
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To: HenryLeeII

LOL.


11 posted on 01/13/2005 11:53:01 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: spetznaz

I totally agree with your assessment. But what should we do that's different from old Europe who looks the other way. The Middle East and Africa are full of the same type of dictators. It's hopeless to deal with them as human beings. President Carter tried the "good Christian" approach and was laughed-out-of-town. Reagan was the tough guy with Libya and achieved a better result over time. So, how should me manage relationships with the bastards. That's the trillion dollar question and I don't know and have never read a good argument.


12 posted on 01/13/2005 12:28:30 PM PST by kipita (Rebel the proletariat response to Aristocracy and Exploitation.)
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To: HenryLeeII

Wow, someone who gets it. Just imagine being born African American in the deep south, with having any friends of muslin faith, and discovering the reality of the continents. I rather be in your "figurative" shoes.........


13 posted on 01/13/2005 12:41:58 PM PST by kipita (Rebel the proletariat response to Aristocracy and Exploitation.)
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To: HenryLeeII

To go one step further, I'd have to agree with Novak, some people and some cultures don't deserve a Jeffersonian Democracy. They should suffer a few more generations and shed oceans of blood before they reach that point.


14 posted on 01/13/2005 12:54:33 PM PST by kipita (Rebel the proletariat response to Aristocracy and Exploitation.)
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To: kipita

I agree that strength in the only medicine for some of these monsters. Saddam got his just due, and that is good. However private citizens should not be starting banana wars just because they have a couple hundred K in the bank.


15 posted on 01/13/2005 12:59:25 PM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: spetznaz; kipita; Sam's Army; Owl_Eagle
What i did say was that private citizens financing coup de tats is one of the best examples of stupidity run amok one can find.

I don't think I can agree. I think this is simply an extension of the current post-nation-state historical trend and globalization movement that we are witnessing (and some of us are taking a part in).

Think of it this way: A company is simply a collection of people that produce goods and/or services for a profit (or else they go out of business). So what is the difference between a company and a country, which is also a collection of people that produce goods and/or services for a profit, which we refer to with the separate terms 'gross domestic product' and 'national debt.' Subtract the latter from the former, and you have your bottom line.

If a country can no longer afford to provide services for its citizens ("customers") and to maintain an army that is strong enough to ward of its enemies ("hostile takeover"), voila, in comes a businessman ("Sir Mark Thatcher") with a plan for a leveraged buy-out ("coup d'etat"). If the citizens do not like the new management ("government"), they are free to seek better conditions elsewhere ("flee").

Privately-financed coup d'etats are simply an undeniable historical trend due to their efficiency in running organizations, plus they represent a democratizaton of the governance process by allowing any person who strives for success to own and run their own country. If everyone truly understood this system they would be on their knees begging for it, to paraphrase the noted capitalist Jane Fonda.

16 posted on 01/13/2005 1:41:09 PM PST by HenryLeeII (Democrats have helped kill more Americans than the Soviets and Nazis combined!)
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To: spetznaz

Agreed. I'm twice your age but you are the future........good luck and I wish you well.


17 posted on 01/13/2005 1:44:11 PM PST by kipita (Rebel the proletariat response to Aristocracy and Exploitation.)
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To: HenryLeeII

From an idealist perspective you have a good point. But the reality is Africa and the Middle East produce nothing worthwhile (independently). Some of the best citizens of the US are from these countries, but the systems within the countries are FUBAR (really missed up). Again, I tend to agree with Novak that true democracy has to come from within after many failures. I think they haven't failed enough.


18 posted on 01/13/2005 2:00:24 PM PST by kipita (Rebel the proletariat response to Aristocracy and Exploitation.)
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To: HenryLeeII
The problem with personal coup de tats is that they can easily be abused. In the future more and more people (me being one of them hopefully, straight to God's ear) will acumulate more and more wealth. Which is a good thing. The problem is that some of those people will be like Soros, who in my opinion has launched several coup attempts in Eastern Europe (with the difference being that they are not overt in an obvious manner).

Another problem is that most personalized coups are normally based on specific angst. Thus, let's say i hate how Macedonia subjects certain groups to unabated oppression. If i have the money i may seek out groups that i 'feel' would be good for Macedonia if they took over, and give them financial assistance. The problem with angst (as well as outright vendettas) is that the 'child with a new toy' syndrome soon pops up. Basically the coup is only effective until they take over (that is assuming they are successful). Once the government is toppled then what? Just because a group is comprised of successful usurpers does not mean it is comprised of effective leaders. To usurp and to lead are two different things altogether.

Now, imagine a worst case scenario where a George Soros character has a personal angst. To be honest with you i am surprised such things have not happened more often. A couple of billion (or even a few hundred million) burning a hole in one's pocket can make certain activities quite appealing.

19 posted on 01/13/2005 2:11:11 PM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: kipita

Thanks.


20 posted on 01/13/2005 2:12:38 PM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: kipita; HenryLeeII
To go one step further, I'd have to agree with Novak, some people and some cultures don't deserve a Jeffersonian Democracy.

I couldn't agree more. Many think that having a democracy is a right, but it is not. It is a priviledge, and an honor, that has to be earned. The people of the nation have to fight for it. They shouldn't wait for the US to come in an slay their demons for them.

It is for this reason i wish more Iraqis would help fight for their freedom.

21 posted on 01/13/2005 2:16:15 PM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: spetznaz; kipita; Owl_Eagle; Sam's Army
The problem with personal coup de tats is that they can easily be abused. In the future more and more people (me being one of them hopefully, straight to God's ear) will acumulate more and more wealth. Which is a good thing. The problem is that some of those people will be like Soros, who in my opinion has launched several coup attempts in Eastern Europe...

And governments quite often abuse their citizens. But, with a personally-financed coup, there is a much shorter chain of command to go through to get results. If Coup Dictator A doesn't improve conditions quickly enough, then along comes Coup Dictator B to fire him and take over. This is what I mean by a democratization of the governance process. No elections to mess with, no pleading to one's representatives for change, etc. Simply remove A, install B, and get on with it.

22 posted on 01/13/2005 2:22:39 PM PST by HenryLeeII (Democrats have helped kill more Americans than the Soviets and Nazis combined!)
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To: HenryLeeII
This is what I mean by a democratization of the governance process. No elections to mess with, no pleading to one's representatives for change, etc. Simply remove A, install B, and get on with it.

Then oceans of blood would be an understatement?

23 posted on 01/13/2005 2:29:08 PM PST by kipita (Rebel the proletariat response to Aristocracy and Exploitation.)
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To: kipita; Sam's Army; Owl_Eagle
Then oceans of blood would be an understatement?

A trifling and temporary inconvenience for the "customers," to be sure. But surely you've had instances where you've had to wait in line during a shift change, or you've come across a new stock clerk that can't tell you which aisle the Scotch tape is on. These things are to be expected with "shift changes" or new management.

But to paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, the Tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and patriots from time to time!

24 posted on 01/13/2005 2:41:38 PM PST by HenryLeeII (Democrats have helped kill more Americans than the Soviets and Nazis combined!)
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To: HenryLeeII
A trifling and temporary inconvenience for the "customers," to be sure.

A good statement from an intellectual. But to see, feel and experience the horror of war and human suffering changes you forever. It truly has to be worth it, and one has to suffer for a long time for it to be worth it.

25 posted on 01/13/2005 2:49:30 PM PST by kipita (Rebel the proletariat response to Aristocracy and Exploitation.)
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To: kipita; Owl_Eagle; Sam's Army
Henry Lee II: "[Oceans of blood would be but a] trifling and temporary inconvenience for the 'customers,' to be sure."

kipita: "A good statement from an intellectual. But to see, feel and experience the horror of war and human suffering changes you forever. It truly has to be worth it, and one has to suffer for a long time for it to be worth it."

Ah, but what is warfare and death and suffering but mere abstracts in a paradigm of meta-spatial realities as determined by the individual who chooses to accept such nebulous pseudo-experiences, when, in fact, the comforting certainty of nihilist existentialism is awaiting, much like one's favorite blanket and mug of hot cocoa after a long day on the tundra.

26 posted on 01/13/2005 5:11:38 PM PST by HenryLeeII (Democrats have helped kill more Americans than the Soviets and Nazis combined!)
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To: HenryLeeII
Ah, but what is warfare and death and suffering but mere abstracts in a paradigm of meta-spatial realities as determined by the individual who chooses to accept such nebulous pseudo-experiences, when, in fact, the comforting certainty of nihilist existentialism is awaiting...

Then why fight for the material (business sponsored warfare) when the "other side" is so much better. Lets just get high and wait to be "taken over" to that better, other side.

Also, don't forget Einstein’s advice, "complex things should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler".

27 posted on 01/13/2005 11:47:52 PM PST by kipita (Rebel the proletariat response to Aristocracy and Exploitation.)
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To: kipita; Owl_Eagle; Sam's Army
Then why fight for the material (business sponsored warfare) when the "other side" is so much better. Lets just get high and wait to be "taken over" to that better, other side.

Good questions. First, there's more profit in "life" and concquering "countries" than there is in nihilist existentialism. Also, you meet hotter women. Second, what is "getting high" other than peeking over the self-imposed and socially-imposed barriers put around us, and seeing that the man behind the curtain is no wiser than us, therefore setting us free into a world of Nietzchian Supermen where we all battle each other for control of the realm around us, and doubly-therefore re-instituting the struggle that Sir Mark Thatcher and others are engaged in here on terra firma. No thanks.

My idea is that countries, if not owned by an individual, should be owned by private companies, which could then use them as marketing tools much like the name-placement arrangement with many NFL stadiums today. Think of it, since Sir Mark has failed in Equatorial Guinea, Bill Gates could step in and create Equatorial Microsoft! This is simply the logical extension and conclusion of many of John Locke's and Adam Smith's ideas. Think of it this way: Wal-Mart supplies many more of life's necessities than does the federal government, and much more economically, as well. Why not put Wal-Mart in charge of the U.S., and Kraft in charge of France (which prides itself on cheese production) and Ragu in charge of Italy. This would be the true Locke/Smith utopia!

28 posted on 01/14/2005 6:32:39 AM PST by HenryLeeII (Democrats have helped kill more Americans than the Soviets and Nazis combined!)
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To: HenryLeeII
Second, what is "getting high" other than peeking over the self-imposed and socially-imposed barriers put around us, and seeing that the man behind the curtain is no wiser than us, therefore setting us free into a world of Nietzchian Supermen where we all battle each other for control of the realm around us, and doubly-therefore re-instituting the struggle that Sir Mark Thatcher and others are engaged in here on terra firma.

I can understand where you're coming from but don't forget, the PC and public Internet (not ARPNet) were envisioned with a little bit of help. As far as companies or individuals owning countries, human society has tried that latter and the world trend is towards the former. So you just may have a point there.

29 posted on 01/14/2005 6:57:12 AM PST by kipita (Rebel the proletariat response to Aristocracy and Exploitation.)
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To: kipita; Owl_Eagle; Sam's Army

The PC was a private venture by companies, wasn't it? And the Internet was the pet of the military/government, but they turned to universities (with the help of private industry) to create it. Governments are so passe; companies and profit - that's where its at now. So buy stock in Wal-Mart, Microsoft, etc., and start plotting which countries they should leverage, and you could be going places. Since you're in Spain, you may want to start networking now with whichever U.S. corporations are active there and see if you can get in on the groundfloor.


30 posted on 01/14/2005 7:11:32 AM PST by HenryLeeII (Democrats have helped kill more Americans than the Soviets and Nazis combined!)
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: HenryLeeII

The computer and ARPNet were government (mostly military) created entities but the hippies (via LSD) were the real visionaries of the PC and public Internet. In fact, in the 1970s, corporations would hire hippies to give them guidance based on their (hippies) visions. If I had to guess, I'd say you were a young male who's educated and insightful. He's a website that may suit your interest:

Kurzweilai.net

You probably have been there before.


32 posted on 01/14/2005 7:27:39 AM PST by kipita (Rebel the proletariat response to Aristocracy and Exploitation.)
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To: kipita; Owl_Eagle
The computer and ARPNet were government (mostly military) created entities but the hippies (via LSD) were the real visionaries of the PC and public Internet. In fact, in the 1970s, corporations would hire hippies to give them guidance based on their (hippies) visions.

Thanks for the Web address. Also, its no coincidence that the former bass player from Iron Butterfly ("Inna-Gada-Da-Vida"), now deceased, and Jeff "Skunk" Baxter, former guitarist for Steely Dan and the Doobie Brothers, have both worked as government consultants in the field of rocketry.

I guess acid freaks have a role to play in this field, but just don't put them in charge of checking the O-Rings and making sure the cargo bay doors are closed!

Do you think LSD users would be useful in planning the Locke/Smith corporate utopias ("countries") that I'm proposing?

33 posted on 01/14/2005 7:49:50 AM PST by HenryLeeII (Democrats have helped kill more Americans than the Soviets and Nazis combined!)
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To: HenryLeeII

I don't know if the LSD-"think outside the box" hippie type people exist as they did in the 70s. But I'm excited about the "intellectual thinkers" and their visions. But I'm not one of them and am therefore not qualified to answer your question. But I've read some of the pages on Kurzweilai and they use similar words as you use. And speaking of music, it was Kurzweilai who created the musical instrument that Stevie Wonder envisioned. Maybe there is still a connection between genus level intelligence and music.


34 posted on 01/14/2005 8:06:53 AM PST by kipita (Rebel the proletariat response to Aristocracy and Exploitation.)
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