Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Leaving the Brothel Behind
New York Times ^ | 1/19/05 | NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

Posted on 01/19/2005 7:28:26 PM PST by wagglebee

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100 last
To: af_vet_1981
Really

That's about as profound as your previous gross generalizations. I see you have a flair for painting a great deal in the exact same shade of black.

51 posted on 01/20/2005 10:48:46 AM PST by angkor
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: angkor
That's about as profound as your previous gross generalizations. I see you have a flair for painting a great deal in the exact same shade of black.

Are you defending any business interests or is this personal for you ?

52 posted on 01/20/2005 10:53:18 AM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 51 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981
Are you defending any business interests or is this personal for you ?

Yeah, it's personal. I've done more than Kristof to solve the problem.

My beef with you is that you've twice regurgitated that MSM line that the problem is caused by Westerners, to wit, white males. That's wrong.

You've also grossly and with no evidence or backup whatsoever stated that "three in four" tourists are in Asia for the sex trade. That is simply a flat out lie.

You expose yourself as a naive propagandist by making such egregiously false assertions.

In truth the sex trade is a local trade primarily run by and for locals.

Now, why are you on this thread? You've contributed not a whit of truth or wisdom to this point.

53 posted on 01/20/2005 11:21:15 AM PST by angkor
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 52 | View Replies]

To: angkor
Yeah, it's personal. I've done more than Kristof to solve the problem.

What have you done ?

My beef with you is that you've twice regurgitated that MSM line that the problem is caused by Westerners, to wit, white males. That's wrong. You've also grossly and with no evidence or backup whatsoever stated that "three in four" tourists are in Asia for the sex trade. That is simply a flat out lie.

You are not a very well educated reader. Your reading comprehension is inferior.

You expose yourself as a naive propagandist by making such egregiously false assertions.

I think you are uncomfortable because you are a western male and are trying to defend your presence there.

In truth the sex trade is a local trade primarily run by and for locals.

How would you know that ? You must have evidence.

Now, why are you on this thread? You've contributed not a whit of truth or wisdom to this point.

Because I hate prostitution and those who promote it, defend it, and profit from it

54 posted on 01/20/2005 11:30:46 AM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

It's a well known fact that sex-tourism in SE Asia is a huge business. The governments turn a blind eye in return for kickbacks. In Phucket alone, there were thousands of European (a lot were from Denmark IIRC) MEN who were killed (the ratio of European MEN to women was completely out of sync with normal tourism). To defend this slavery on any level whatsoever is indefensible.


55 posted on 01/20/2005 11:40:54 AM PST by wagglebee (Memo to sKerry: the only thing Bush F'ed up was your career)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: angkor
THAILAND (TIER 2 - WATCH LIST) [Extracted from U.S. State Dept Trafficking in Persons Report, June 14, 2004]

Thailand is a source, transit and destination country for persons trafficked for sexual exploitation and forced labor. Thailand is a destination for men, women and children from Burma, Laos, Cambodia, and China who are trafficked for forced or bonded labor and prostitution. Thai women are trafficked to Australia, South Africa, Japan, Bahrain, Taiwan, Europe and North America for sexual exploitation. Internal trafficking also occurs in Thailand, involving victims from Northern Thailand. Additionally, regional economic disparities drive significant illegal migration into Thailand, presenting traffickers opportunities to move victims into labor exploitation. Widespread sex tourism in Thailand encourages trafficking for forced prostitution.

The Government of Thailand does not fully comply with the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking; however, it is making significant efforts to do so. Thailand's placement on Tier 2 Watch List is due to the government's failure to provide evidence of increasing efforts to combat severe forms of trafficking in one area: the protection of Cambodian trafficking victims, particularly those exploited in street work. The Thai government needs to take measures to protect trafficking victims in order to demonstrate significant efforts to eliminate severe forms of trafficking. In September 2003, the Thai government declared a national campaign against criminal organizations in Thailand including traffickers of women and children, the first time the issue has been publicly elevated to a national level priority.
56 posted on 01/20/2005 11:41:20 AM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981
You're a real twit. I worked for an NGO and had many friends who dealt personally (professionally) with the sex trade problem. I contributed money to the cause. There were some other involvements that (I have reason to believe) put some of these creeps into jail, or at least deported.

Now, you come to the table with some gross generalizations which I know from actually being there to be absolutely false. You won't admit it, but they are false.

And instead of questioning (let alone researching) your own mistaken assumptions, you just keep walking down the road of ignorance.

I'm flaming because it is knuckleheads like you who irk me. You just keep the (un)subtle insults flying while having not the faintest idea what you're talking about. You'd be a charicature of pompous naivete if you weren't so annoying.

57 posted on 01/20/2005 11:44:24 AM PST by angkor
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 54 | View Replies]

To: wagglebee
It's a well known fact that sex-tourism in SE Asia is a huge business. The governments turn a blind eye in return for kickbacks. In Phucket alone, there were thousands of European (a lot were from Denmark IIRC) MEN who were killed (the ratio of European MEN to women was completely out of sync with normal tourism).

Those there for sex tourism deserved to die

58 posted on 01/20/2005 11:45:51 AM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

And something should be done about the travel agencies who book these sex tours.


59 posted on 01/20/2005 11:49:05 AM PST by wagglebee (Memo to sKerry: the only thing Bush F'ed up was your career)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 58 | View Replies]

To: angkor
You're a real twit. I worked for an NGO and had many friends who dealt personally (professionally) with the sex trade problem. I contributed money to the cause. There were some other involvements that (I have reason to believe) put some of these creeps into jail, or at least deported. Now, you come to the table with some gross generalizations which I know from actually being there to be absolutely false. You won't admit it, but they are false.

And instead of questioning (let alone researching) your own mistaken assumptions, you just keep walking down the road of ignorance.

I'm flaming because it is knuckleheads like you who irk me. You just keep the (un)subtle insults flying while having not the faintest idea what you're talking about. You'd be a charicature of pompous naivete if you weren't so annoying.

So in other words, you are given to personal fits, your reading comprehension has not improved, and you have no evidence you have done more than the journalist quoted in this article.

Yet you are here and it seems as if you are defending this modern evil, at least in the context of the Western male tourists on the prowl for prey.

60 posted on 01/20/2005 11:50:10 AM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 57 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

What is the point you're trying to make in #56? Where did I assert that there wasn't sex tourism?


61 posted on 01/20/2005 12:46:17 PM PST by angkor
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: wagglebee; af_vet_1981
there were thousands of European (a lot were from Denmark IIRC) MEN who were killed (the ratio of European MEN to women was completely out of sync with normal tourism)

What's the exact source of your statistics, above?

The Danish police, for example, have dropped the number of missing from 450+ to 68 in just the last two weeks. If even the Danish police and the Danish embassy can't get a good fix on the dead and missing, where in the heck do you get your hard numbers with a gender breakdown?

It's rather suspicious.

62 posted on 01/20/2005 12:51:14 PM PST by angkor
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 55 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981
Yet you are here and it seems as if you are defending this modern evil

No, I'm not. But it might seem so to any ninny who had never been to Asia and could not comprehend the disconnect between press sensationalism and the truth.

The truth is that prostitution in Asia is first and foremost a local phenomena, for the locals. Westerners do not drive it nor are they responsble for it.

I'm sorry you can't get that fact through your skull.

I'm also sorry that you fall prey to any sloppy reporting or false anecdote (e.g. post #55) pushed in front of you, no matter how patently false it may be (again, #55).

Finally, more mature people - certainly those who have lived and worked in the region - recognize that prostitution is a problem, but they don't wish death upon those who are engaged in what is otherwise perfectly legal activity. Your position is a little harsh, to say the least.

63 posted on 01/20/2005 1:05:48 PM PST by angkor
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: angkor

I can understand that you deny the State Department report and that you sympathize with the perps but I have no sympathy for you when you do so.


64 posted on 01/20/2005 1:19:57 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 63 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

It is a LIE that Angkor has defended IN ANY WAY sex tourism. And you have the balls to accuse HIM of not having sufficient reading comprehension. Funny man.


65 posted on 01/20/2005 1:20:45 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 60 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

More humor. That quotation IN NO WAY claimed the sex tourists were Western. Most foreigners who come for that are Japanese I believe.


66 posted on 01/20/2005 1:22:48 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: angkor
What is the point you're trying to make in #56? Where did I assert that there wasn't sex tourism?

"The myth that Westerners are responsible for Asian prostitution is absolutely ludicrous and bizarre"

As opposed to the State Department report which I linked that states:

"Widespread sex tourism in Thailand encourages trafficking for forced prostitution."

You can look up the term 'widespread' to see if it improves your reading comprehension.

It seems to me that even though you it is evil for Western tourists to travel for the sex you can't help yourself but put up some kind of defense for them.

67 posted on 01/20/2005 1:28:36 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 61 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981
I can understand that you deny the State Department report

No, I didn't deny it, I asked what point you were attempting to make by producing it. It says nothing substantive to bolster anything you've said here. Only that there's is Western sex tourism, which I've not denied.

So again I ask, what was your point in producing it here?

Laughably, you also included the second paragraph on "street workers", which in your apparently pornographic mind means "street hookers." Whereas it actually means beggars, and has nothing at all to do with the sex trade.

We're done here. You don't even understand the premise of the discussion.

68 posted on 01/20/2005 1:28:51 PM PST by angkor
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 64 | View Replies]

To: justshutupandtakeit
It is a LIE that Angkor has defended IN ANY WAY sex tourism. And you have the balls to accuse HIM of not having sufficient reading comprehension. Funny man.

You seem to also have a reading comprehension problem.

"... recognize that prostitution is a problem, but they don't wish death upon those who are engaged in what is otherwise perfectly legal activity. "

69 posted on 01/20/2005 1:31:06 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: Lizavetta
Just send Kofi some more money. He'll fix it.

Just as soon as he gets back from skiing, maybe next week...

70 posted on 01/20/2005 1:34:43 PM PST by Bon mots
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: wagglebee

That's wonderful! Congratulations to him.

One of the problems with getting girls out of this is that their families usually put them there in the first place, and even if the girl eventually gets a chance to try something else, the entire family is still hanging on to her.

This is called the "crab effect" by people who work with low-income people: when somebody gets out of jail and starts to go straight, or gets a job and starts to earn money, the whole family appears right away to take advantage of him. It's like crabs in a bucket: pick one up and all the rest grab onto it. And if frequently ends up pulling people right back down.

But this story looks like it might have a happy ending someday, at least.


71 posted on 01/20/2005 1:38:09 PM PST by livius
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: angkor
No, I didn't deny it, I asked what point you were attempting to make by producing it. It says nothing substantive to bolster anything you've said here. Only that there's is Western sex tourism, which I've not denied.

I posted your comments where you wrote they are not responsible and that it is perfectly legal.

So again I ask, what was your point in producing it here?

To counter your defense of Western tourists who are guilty of perpetuating this slavery

Laughably, you also included the second paragraph on "street workers", which in your apparently pornographic mind means "street hookers." Whereas it actually means beggars, and has nothing at all to do with the sex trade.

I note your contention that "street workers" are beggars and are never sexually exploited. I don't believe you but I note it for the record.

We're done here. You don't even understand the premise of the discussion.

I understand. Men are weak and easily corrupted.

72 posted on 01/20/2005 1:43:35 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 68 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

You think THAT was a defense of prostitution? If so it means you do not use or understand logic so it it worse than mere incomprehension.


73 posted on 01/20/2005 2:04:14 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 69 | View Replies]

To: justshutupandtakeit
More humor. That quotation IN NO WAY claimed the sex tourists were Western. Most foreigners who come for that are Japanese I believe.

I don't the subject or you funny at all.

The report does not identify the percentages of those who tour and sample but does list those who import the slaves.

"Thai women are trafficked to Australia, South Africa, Japan, Bahrain, Taiwan, Europe and North America for sexual exploitation."

"The large number of children is why President Bush, at his United Nations General Assembly speech last fall, emphasized cooperation in the fight against child sex tourism, which creates a demand for child sex slaves. "

74 posted on 01/20/2005 2:08:05 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 66 | View Replies]

To: justshutupandtakeit
You think THAT was a defense of prostitution?

That is the standard defense libertines use, that "it is perfectly legal," etc.

75 posted on 01/20/2005 2:09:42 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

Those who import these women/girls/boys are their own countrymen who establish rings to accomplish this. If you can find more than a handful of Thai/Cambodian/Vietnamese hookers in the states I'll eat my hat.

Trying to blame this on the West is typical Leftist disinformation and you fell for it. That is the issue not whether prostitution is good or not.

Angkor was trying to explain that you fell for this anti-Western canard.


76 posted on 01/20/2005 2:14:47 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 74 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

He was attempting to say that death is not the penalty for such activity. Sin though it is.


77 posted on 01/20/2005 2:15:59 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 75 | View Replies]

To: justshutupandtakeit
He was attempting to say that death is not the penalty for such activity. Sin though it is.

He wrote "those who are engaged in what is otherwise perfectly legal activity."

Why am I not surprised to find people denying that these perps and their slaves really exist in any number worthy of our concern ?

Thankfully President Bush takes it seriously.

78 posted on 01/20/2005 2:24:12 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 77 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

No one has said anything like that. OR defended prostitution on this thread.

It might interest you to know that the areas hardest hit by the tsunami were not the areas where the sex trade is big. These areas were very upscale and expensive unlike the seedy areas where the pimps ply their trade.

I am also glad Bush is speaking out in great contrast to the PoS who held office before him. The latter would likely be sampling the pimps' wares.

Don't look for enemies where there are none.


79 posted on 01/20/2005 2:33:35 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 78 | View Replies]

To: justshutupandtakeit
No one has said anything like that. OR defended prostitution on this thread.

The quotes are right on this thread.

80 posted on 01/20/2005 2:34:43 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: justshutupandtakeit
Don't look for enemies where there are none.

Do not defend Western sex tourists.

81 posted on 01/20/2005 2:36:13 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 79 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

Not defending prostitution. Disagreeing with you is NOT defending prostitution.


82 posted on 01/20/2005 2:36:47 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 80 | View Replies]

To: JackelopeBreeder

It is happening right here in New York City.


83 posted on 01/20/2005 2:38:20 PM PST by cyborg
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

No one has. Pointing out the real facts is not the same as defending the Western sex tourists. They are scum as far as I am concerned. But exaggerating their numbers is just useless.


84 posted on 01/20/2005 2:38:39 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 81 | View Replies]

To: justshutupandtakeit
Not defending prostitution. Disagreeing with you is NOT defending prostitution.

Writing that sex tourists are engaging in a "perfectly legal activity" is defending prostitution.

85 posted on 01/20/2005 2:38:55 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 82 | View Replies]

To: justshutupandtakeit
But exaggerating their numbers is just useless.

Your fight is with President Bush, his wife Laura, his Cabinet, and me.

86 posted on 01/20/2005 2:39:52 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 84 | View Replies]

To: wagglebee
Pretty cheap. In America women prostitute themselves in marriage then some man pays

the cost of a house and half the his savings so she can go away and start over. (/womens lib impression)

87 posted on 01/20/2005 2:43:03 PM PST by DainBramage
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

Not at all. It was said in response to your boneheaded declaration that death was the proper response for those banging hookers.

Your critical skills are deficient.


88 posted on 01/20/2005 2:49:58 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 85 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

The others have not exaggerated the numbers and tried to make it appear as though this "business" exists only because of the Westerners. That is FALSE. It has existed for hundreds, if not thousands, of years before the Westerner even set foot in these countries.

This is a problem caused by the social systems of these countries not by Westerners. Those participating in it certainly are not helping but unless you understand the dynamics of it you cannot understand or counter it.

But you seem determined NOT to understand it.


89 posted on 01/20/2005 2:53:16 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 86 | View Replies]

To: justshutupandtakeit
Not at all. It was said in response to your boneheaded declaration that death was the proper response for those banging hookers. Your critical skills are deficient.

It does not matter what it was in response to.

It revealed his, and apparently your, view that while it may be sin to some, this prostitution is a completely legal activity. The President knows it is slavery and is going to fight to stop both it and the slavers.

Your spiritual skills are deficient.

BTW, what "beautiful women" do you profess to love ?

90 posted on 01/20/2005 2:54:19 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 88 | View Replies]

To: justshutupandtakeit
The others have not exaggerated the numbers

Do you know how to click on a link and read ?

We believe that the largest category of slavery is sex slavery. This is not to minimize other large categories: domestic servitude slavery, forced labor in farms and factories slavery, child soldier slavery. The large number of children is why President Bush, at his United Nations General Assembly speech last fall, emphasized cooperation in the fight against child sex tourism, which creates a demand for child sex slaves.

91 posted on 01/20/2005 2:56:51 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: justshutupandtakeit
This is a problem caused by the social systems of these countries not by Westerners.

When were you there ?

92 posted on 01/20/2005 2:57:49 PM PST by af_vet_1981
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 89 | View Replies]

To: wagglebee

Nice story. Kind of reminds me of the movie "Pay It Forward".


93 posted on 01/20/2005 3:02:17 PM PST by Diverdogz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: MarkL
Those scumbags are typical leftists... Recognizing a problem, and then sitting around, talking amongst themselves about what a terrible thing it is... But condemning those trying to do something about it!

Makes you wonder what they think of Oscar Schindler and his beautiful, successful efforts to free many of the condemned.

94 posted on 01/20/2005 3:02:30 PM PST by TChris (Most people's capability for inference is severely overestimated)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: angkor
The biggest brothel customers in Cambodia are Cambodians; in Thailand, Thais; in Macau, Chinese; and in Vietnam, Vietnamese.

I daresay that the married men who frequent these places expect their wives to remain faithful.

95 posted on 01/20/2005 3:02:58 PM PST by Siamese Princess
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: angkor

So, I take it that you don't see Asian sex slavery as an issue at all, and these sex tours that are advertised on the internet are just make believe.


96 posted on 01/20/2005 5:45:01 PM PST by wagglebee (Memo to sKerry: the only thing Bush F'ed up was your career)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 62 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

You are apparently the World's Champion at Jumping to Unwarranted Conclusions.

Commenting on the legality of something in another country to your twisted mentality is APPROVING of it? What a joke.

I am a bigger supporter of the President than you I would wager.

What is a spiritual "skill"? LoL.

What is your concern about my love life? Looking for tips?


97 posted on 01/21/2005 8:26:22 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 90 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

Talk about dense! How did you ever come to the conclusion I am unaware of the sexual exploitation of children? What deluded meandering of your mind led to that absurdity?

Do you just post stuff at random and hope it is applicable to the discussion? Throw darts at a board and post whatever article it hits?

Well sorry try again since your links have no bearing on anything I have been discussing.


98 posted on 01/21/2005 8:30:41 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 91 | View Replies]

To: af_vet_1981

What does having been there have to do with anything?

Are you completely unaware of the FACT that sexual slavery and exploitation have been a major custom in Asia FOR MILLENIA? Long before the Roung Eyes arrived. Has this escaped your attention? Is your historical knowledge THAT deficient?


99 posted on 01/21/2005 8:33:24 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit (Public Enemy #1, the RATmedia.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 92 | View Replies]

To: wagglebee

decent feller


100 posted on 01/21/2005 8:36:00 AM PST by Constantine XIII
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-5051-100 last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson