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Weapons for China
Financial Times ^ | January 22 2005

Posted on 01/21/2005 8:50:47 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe

The European arms embargo against China, which allows countries such as France and the UK to export torpedoes, military electronics and chemical agents to Beijing, is obviously not entirely effective; European Union figures show weapons export licences to China nearly doubled to €416m (£288m) in 2003.

Yet the EU plan to lift the embargo has angered the Bush administration and Japan, Washington's increasingly assertive Asian ally. The US says ending the sanctions, imposed after China crushed pro-democracy protests in 1989, could endanger US forces in the Pacific and give Beijing an undeserved diplomatic reward.

US officials are particularly annoyed by Europe's disingenuous attempts to play down the issue's significance. Jack Straw, the foreign secretary, described it as a "presentational problem", implying that the US did not understand how serious the Europeans were about maintaining restrictions on arms sales to China. The US says the Europeans do not grasp the implications of what they are doing or see how seriously the matter is viewed in Washington. One Bush official, fearing the use of high-technology European weapons against any US forces that might be called on to defend Taiwan from China, this week threatened European allies with "major problems for transatlantic arms procurement".

Europe does have arguments on its side, including the leaky nature of the sanctions, the fact that they are not legally binding on EU members and the varying degrees of strictness with which they are interpreted. The EU has promised not to lift the embargo until it has strengthened its code of conduct governing weapons exports and introduced a transitional scheme for recently embargoed nations.

European governments, furthermore, can be forgiven for questioning American motives in trying to curb European exports when Israel, a staunch US ally, is permitted to sell high-tech weapons to China. The 2004 US-China security report to the US Congress devotes more space to concerns about Israel, second only to Russia as a provider of weapons systems to China, than it does to the faltering EU embargo.

However, it is clumsy and irresponsible of the Europeans to consider ending the embargo without taking US concerns on board, especially when the re-elected President George W. Bush is holding out an olive branch to them and visiting Europe next month.

Weapons for China, an emerging superpower, is an issue of grave importance for the west on which the Americans and their European allies should co-operate closely. If human rights are regrettably being dropped as criteria - and there is no sign that the US will apply the same "freedom" standards to China as it does to Iran, Burma, North Korea, Belarus and Zimbabwe - Europe and the US must at least agree on a list of items and systems banned for export to China.

Not unreasonably, the US is adamant that China should be refused technology that would threaten US aircraft carrier battle groups, the means by which the US deters Chinese aggression against Taiwan.

Pressed by China to end the embargo and by the US to keep it, the EU dismisses the embargo as outdated but insists its proposed new regime would not lead to greatly increased arms sales. One does not have to be American to find this argument unconvincing. The best solution is for the EU and the US to agree what sanctions they want to keep on China and then to apply them as firmly as possible.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: armsbuildup; china; eussr

1 posted on 01/21/2005 8:50:47 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Atlantic Friend; Marie007; Michael81Dus; Eurotwit; MadIvan
European Union figures show weapons export licences to China nearly doubled to €416m (£288m) in 2003.

That's a lot of materiel.

2 posted on 01/21/2005 8:53:23 PM PST by risk
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Europe does have arguments on its side, including the leaky nature of the sanctions,

Sounds like they need to pass a more effective sanction not throw it in the toilet!

3 posted on 01/21/2005 8:57:41 PM PST by Echo Talon
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To: Tailgunner Joe

This is just another sign of France's duplicity. Their goal is to harm the US and they'd gladly join Saddam, Mugabe, or Communist China to do it. It's pitiful to watch them attempt to rationalize their backstabbing.


4 posted on 01/21/2005 9:01:13 PM PST by elhombrelibre (Liberalism is proof that intelligent people can ignore as much as the ignorant.)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

later read


5 posted on 01/21/2005 9:02:20 PM PST by investigateworld (Babies= A sure sign He hasn't given up on mankind!)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

We'll be at war with China within 10 years. They are rapidly building up a 'blue water' navy, and there is only one other navy that can challenge them: The US Navy.

I hope those European scum burn in hell for all the US sailors that will die because of their greed and disdain for the US.


6 posted on 01/21/2005 9:08:13 PM PST by CrawDaddyCA (There is no such thing as a fair fight. Thou shall win at all costs!!)
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To: CrawDaddyCA

Yes, there is no question we'll be at war soon with China. The only question is when. Your 10 years just might be right but I would be more inclined toward 15. We'll see, won't we!


7 posted on 01/21/2005 9:12:34 PM PST by henderson field
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To: henderson field

so when/if we do go to war with china is that the moment we close all walmarts and take chicom GNP go to 0 overnight...

hmm do they know that?


8 posted on 01/21/2005 9:15:48 PM PST by Flavius ("... we should reconnoitre assiduosly... " Vegetius)
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To: henderson field

I hope we don't, but reading the news lately, it seems as though it's leaning that way, doesn't it?

I have no doubt my old shipmates will kick ass, but the cost will be terribly high.


9 posted on 01/21/2005 9:16:39 PM PST by CrawDaddyCA (There is no such thing as a fair fight. Thou shall win at all costs!!)
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To: CrawDaddyCA

(Israel, a staunch US ally, is permitted to sell high-tech weapons to China.)

I don't know about anyone else, but the above bothers me quite a bit. I was ready to blast the EU on this thread before seeing it. Apart from making us look like hypocrites, what the heck is Israel thinking? It would be poetic justice if China turns around and sells the same stuff to Iran!


10 posted on 01/21/2005 9:22:06 PM PST by winner3000
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To: winner3000

They already are.


11 posted on 01/21/2005 9:44:31 PM PST by Eagles6 (Dig deeper, more ammo.)
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To: winner3000
The Chinese have already put a satellite in orbit. Don't suppose anyones thought about their throwing a nuke our way if they get really pissed they don't have any qualms about wasting a few million of their own people why should the feel any different about us.
12 posted on 01/21/2005 9:46:32 PM PST by snowman1
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To: Flavius

We did it to Germany and Japan. The world was trading then too.


13 posted on 01/21/2005 10:04:39 PM PST by endthematrix (Declare 2005 as the year the battle for freedom from tax slavery!)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
What it comes down to, IMO, is the fact that Europe has never forgiven the US, an uncultured primitive nation, for the sins of taking its best people, and forming a nation which kicked Europe's butts in every way, but ironically, ultimately saved Europe's butts from its own home grown monsters.

Europe knows its can never compete with US heads up, but it is willing to aid and abet the only rival it sees with the potential to beat us.
14 posted on 01/21/2005 10:17:32 PM PST by Dat Mon (will work for clever tagline)
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To: risk

The EU is the enemy and China is the enemy. The new Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact. When will people in government get that. Still at least Bush will stop military support to Europe if they do lift the sanctions. Israel needs to be held accountable too. While I support them against islamofascism, that is no excuse for them to be doing that. What concerns me most. Will britain be STUPID enough to sell the technology of the JSF to China?


15 posted on 01/21/2005 10:26:49 PM PST by Paul_Denton
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To: CrawDaddyCA
I hope we don't, but reading the news lately, it seems as though it's leaning that way, doesn't it?

Indeed. The cost will be high and all those sailors dying will be saddening. But China's expansionism must be stopped. They took Tibet. They took numorous other territories. We cannot allow them to get Taiwan or Japan.

16 posted on 01/21/2005 10:29:43 PM PST by Paul_Denton
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To: Paul_Denton
Possible, the MIG 15 was powered by a licensed copy of the British designed "Nene" jet engine.
Of course Douglas Aircraft sold the complete plans and models of the DC 3/C-47 and the DC 4/C 54.
17 posted on 01/21/2005 10:33:38 PM PST by investigateworld (Babies= A sure sign He hasn't given up on mankind!)
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To: Tailgunner Joe
Sure am glad there was an embargo! Imagine how much High Tech military gear would have been shipped to our enemies if it was actually legal.

It is a very good investment for the EU. If China and Russia can be induced to attack America when our troops, (and our National Guard), are overseas, The EU with NATO can then be the rulers over 1/3 of the earth without having to dirty its hands with a nasty old war, and its only real economic competition will be gone.

Well, all but nasty old Israel that is. But the 40 or so million dollars a month given to the Palestinians are reaping big benefits in crushing the Israeli economy. How dare those JOOO's apply for more scientific patents than all of Europe combined...

Some men grow tall by helping others stand, and some men become taller by chopping others off at the knees. It is pretty obvious how the European Union "stands".

18 posted on 01/22/2005 12:20:23 AM PST by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: Paul_Denton

You are taking things to extreme. JSF technology is not on the cards for sale to China. There will be severe restrictions on high technology sales. If the Chinese want JSF engine technology for example all they have to do is go to the Russians. The Russians worked with Lockheed on the JSF and supplied all their engine technology from the Yak-141 Freestyle. The Russians were the first to fly the engine set up that is on the STOVL JSF variant.


19 posted on 01/22/2005 2:06:28 AM PST by Tommyjo
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To: Flavius; henderson field

<< so when/if we do go to war with china is that the moment we close all walmarts and take chicom GNP go to 0 overnight...

hmm do they know that? >>

And -- that on day one and just for starters -- as a kinda show card -- we will simultaneously nuke Three Gorges Dam and Pigking, Shankhiiiiii and Kunming -- and kill about ten million -- or twenty [By then, who's counting?] of them.

[H F -- you named after the Honiara, Guadalcanal, Solomon Islands airport I used to fly out of -- or the one at Midway I've often ferried through?]


20 posted on 01/22/2005 4:01:46 AM PST by Brian Allen (I fly and can therefore be envious of no man -- Per Adua Ad Astra!)
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To: American in Israel

US 'anger' at Israel weapons sale

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4101961.stm


21 posted on 01/22/2005 6:49:35 AM PST by Eurotwit
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To: Eurotwit

Israel sold repair parts for systems that they had prior approval for. Not the same as selling a half a billion dollars of equiptment against a ban.

You Eurotwit you! -grin-


22 posted on 01/22/2005 7:22:52 AM PST by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: American in Israel

I agree.

I just thought your post was....a bit , shall we say, over the top :-)

Cheers.


23 posted on 01/22/2005 7:46:29 AM PST by Eurotwit
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To: elhombrelibre
This is just another sign of France's duplicity.

The UK is pushing hard for it as well.

24 posted on 01/22/2005 7:48:55 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: risk

-"Europe does have arguments on its side, including the leaky nature of the sanctions, the fact that they are not legally binding on EU members and the varying degrees of strictness with which they are interpreted. The EU has promised not to lift the embargo until it has strengthened its code of conduct governing weapons exports and introduced a transitional scheme for recently embargoed nations."-

****

If there is no cause and affect, people sometimes get stupid.

The problem here is that those nations responsible for the stupidity can’t be effectively engaged politically, economically or in security matters.

France is the biggest culprit here and if we take any action against France we ultimately adversely affect other allies. France plays dirty games but is shielded by the fact that being tied into the EU, UN (security council) and NATO as part of Europe geographically they are hard to get back at. Example: Had the US just said “Screw you” 3 years ago and let the Balkans destabilize because the Germans were playing games with the French, others like the Poles, Romanians, Italians etc will get hurt by our action or lack there of. So while the French and Germans play games we are in a position where we must continue to play level handed and can't easily lash out. They (Germany/France) know this. In this case it’s a win-win situation for them.

This is no joke. We should consider selling arms to someone who has the money but may bring them to the fight in the Ivory Coast. -Cause and Affect.- It’s a dirty game, but if they want to play this way we need to make it real clear that it’s not without consequence. Where we hurt them is not in Europe, but in their African, Asian, Caribbean, South American and Pacific holdings. France is a colonial power and exerts force outside its boarders for national interests.

Straight from the horse’s mouth:

"Press conference with French Defence Minister
________________________________________

On 8 April 1997 in Beijing, French Minister of Defence Mr Charles Millon stated:

"With the Chinese leaders, we discussed reinforcing cooperation in three areas:
-- very high level strategic dialogue;
-- the exchange of information and training;
-- cooperation in the technical, technological and infrastructure fields.
. . .
This technological and industrial cooperation will be conducted within the framework of our European and international commitments."
Source: Paris Agence France Presse (in French) 8 April 1997."

****

We are NOT unreasonable when we expect no sales of arms to China. While we too conduct trade with China, we have tight controls when it comes to anything, which may be used as a weapon. While the European is “shocked” and of course appalled by my statement that we should sell to someone like a rebel group in Africa, there is really no difference between that and what the French and Schroeder want to do in China. I think Germany is still moderate on issues like this and Schroeder may not be in the majority there yet. Issues like this are better solved in a positive manner. Politics can be executed by: appealing to morals or reason, political or economic pressure or force.

With France I truly believe that we are on a collision course. It won't ever be a war or large scale direct action against one another, but we will ultimately have to define a relationship where there are limits and rules more or less for both sides. The French have been operating with no regard to US interests for a while now. They are KNOWINGLY and even DELIBERATELY doing things that threaten US interests, soldier's lives and regional stability for their own economic gain and to reduce our degree and realm of influence. They think like a "colonial power" to this day and are working against us.

Japan has already screamed bloody murder! In Korea this issues is not looked at good. Here’s an excerpt from an Australian paper.

“Chirac puts China massacre in past to help trade
By Hamish McDonald Herald Correspondent in Beijing
October 11, 2004
France's President Jacques Chirac declared the Chinese Army's massacre of Tiananmen democracy demonstrators an event in the past as he began a visit here designed to reap lucrative contracts for France's financially pressed state industrial enterprises.
The massacre in 1989 was "another time" he said during an interview with the Chinese Government news agency Xinhua, explaining his call for a lifting of the European Union's arms export embargo on China, imposed after Tiananmen.
The remark brought immediate protests. The New York-based group Human Rights in China, founded by exiles from the suppressed 1980s democracy movement, said that "15 short years" was not long enough to erase a major crime against humanity.
"President Chirac's remarks also profoundly dishonour the many Chinese people who continue to call for accountability for Tiananmen Square," it said in a statement, mentioning the retired army doctor Jiang Yanyong, the thousands of Chinese intellectuals who had signed petitions, and the "Tiananmen mothers" of victims still calling for a reassessment of the official line that the protests were a "counter-revolutionary riot".
Mr Chirac was unabashed as he stood next to the Chinese President, Hu Jintao, for a 21-gun salute from the People's Liberation Army in Tiananmen Square on Saturday before entering talks aimed at cementing what both leaders call a "strategic partnership".
The arms embargo had "no use at all" he told reporters later.
"It was an expedient measure adopted at that time. It was mainly derived from animosity towards China. The European Union has a ban on North Korea. That indicates that this ban is not logical."
The lifting of the embargo has been strenuously opposed by the United States, which fears it could lead to European weapons systems being used against its forces in any conflict over Taiwan, which the US is obliged by one of its own laws to defend.
Mr Chirac said France "completely understands" China's position on Taiwan and was worried tensions between the mainland and the island were worsening.
"Any challenge to the balance in the Taiwan Strait region will be very dangerous and detrimental for everyone," he said.
At an earlier stop in the Western Chinese industrial centre of Chengdu, Mr Chirac declared China a vital front for France in the "global economic battle", with big contracts being sought for the aircraft manufacturer Airbus, the car maker Renault, the fast train maker Alstom and the nuclear power plant firms Electricite de France, Framatome, and Areva.
But France faces stiff competition from US, Japanese and other European nations. Its trade with China, valued at $US13.4 billion ($18 billion) last year, is behind that of Germany and Britain, and some of the new contracts may be won on political rather than technical grounds.
Chinese officials have indicated they might chose Alstom's high-speed train over Japan's bullet train for a new high-speed link between Beijing and Shanghai because of lingering war animosity.
Mr Hu indicated that a Chinese goal in the "strategic partnership" with France was to resist US "unilateralism" and restore the United Nations Security Council as the forum for dealing with world crises.
Taiwan's President Chen Shui-bian used his National Day speech yesterday to call for peace talks with China and urge both sides to adopt a system to prevent an outbreak of conflict in the strait dividing them.
Mr Chen said his Government was willing to resume negotiations based on a 1992 understanding over interpretation of Beijing's cherished one China principle, Reuters reported.

****

While they try to stay neutral in reporting, the Aussies are not too thrilled about Mr. Chirac’s new “World Order” either. In fact NO ONE in that region likes this idea except those selling weapons to China, and of course China itself.

France is a bottom feeder. They make money off of deals where others will or can not. They get special preference in economic deals because they are willing to oppose the US in the UN or because they make other deals or soften up trade restrictions. There is a reason why French products are so prevalent in Iraq. It’s not just “Food For Oil” but the fact that nations like France and even Germany (when it opposed the war) were given preferential treatment by the Saddam regime (This was even all over German TV and bragged about). China is doing the same now. There are secondary economic benefits for being a pariah like France is. Not only do you sell a weapon, but you may get a train or rail contract. Schroeder opposes the arms embargo and “shazam” Airbus gets a contract in China. International trade is not just governed by price and value.

Red6


25 posted on 01/22/2005 9:09:55 AM PST by Red6
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To: Non-Sequitur

The UK is in Iraq, for NATO expansion, a NATO rapid Reaction Force, NATO involvement in Afghanistan AND Iraq, JSF, Apache......and much more. They are also part of the EU and are already viewed as outsiders by Germany and France. They still oppose the Euro currency and are tied into the US intel (CIA, NSA; GB helped BUILD Echelon, etc) more than Europe. They don't want to be the outcasts of Europe but are really pushing the envelope of what France and Germany “want” them to do and are willing to tolerate.

Even we have weapons manufacturers who would do business with China if they could. You hear this today about the UK and China. But it's the French who are the bottom feeders in Europe and today Schroeder is joining their ranks.

Selling arms to China would impact GB as it would us. They would get sucked into a conflict there too while the French and Germans are willing to arm a belligerent but would never get involved if Korea were invaded, Taiwan/Japan attacked or the water ways shut down. The British have the SAME stake as we do; regardless of what anyone one says or writes.

GB must give and take within Europe but they are our allies in EVERY aspect.

Red6


26 posted on 01/22/2005 9:29:58 AM PST by Red6
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To: Red6
Interesting and provocative thoughts, Red. Keep up the thinking and the writing. I hope you manage to open the eyes of some and spur to action others.

I happen to enjoy interacting with Atlantic Friend and other Frenchies, and I think there are plenty who would like to stop the actions leading toward the scenarios you describe above. I do believe it can be stopped, as well.

A lot of this has to do with America's lack of political internal resolve. Our instability sets off tremors in political faultlines all over the planet.

27 posted on 01/22/2005 10:27:10 AM PST by risk
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To: Paul_Denton; Jeff Head

No substantial arguments from me. Thanks for the comments. I do not agree that Bush can stop EU arms sales to China. I don't think the JSF will be on the list of items for sale. I do think that Americans will face these weapons and many will eventually die in battle against them. Their blood is already on the hands of every greedy individual who has had high tech commerce with China in the last 30 years.


28 posted on 01/22/2005 10:39:21 AM PST by risk
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To: Flavius

Europe is now their largest trading partner.


29 posted on 01/22/2005 10:54:42 AM PST by monkeywrench
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To: snowman1

Sometimes people realize a great leader many years after he is gone.

Bush is pushing missile defense like crazy. Within his next term the Missile Defense system will be up and running. To a large degree it is already.

http://www.acq.osd.mil/mda/mdalink/html/mdalink.html

N. Korea, China, Russia (Not likely but also not 100% stable), Iran, Cuba, Libya, Pakistan, India and Syria. Long term, missile defense is important. It’s a defensive system, which acts as a deterrent as well.

I believe Missile Defense will be one of Bush’s largest accomplishments when people in the future look back upon his presidency. However, for the time being, the media and peace-nick types will egg him for it.

The reason why we are building this system is because of exactly what you say. Dictatorships and theocracies tend to not always act rationally or predictable. The proliferation of TBMs and even ICBMs is a matter of fact, not theory. N. Korea can could range Alaska and Hawaii in 1997. They don't build these missiles to shoot S. Korea, Taiwan or Japan.

Red6


30 posted on 01/22/2005 12:56:17 PM PST by Red6
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To: Eurotwit
I just thought your post was....a bit , shall we say, over the top :-)

Unless of course it becomes true. Then it is prophetic. If it does not it is just pathetic. I hope it is pathetic, but I fear it is prophetic.

31 posted on 01/23/2005 12:51:19 AM PST by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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