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Germany's Fischer reaffirms commitment to Israel
The Jerusalem Post ^ | 24 January 2005 | JPOST.COM STAFF

Posted on 01/24/2005 10:25:28 AM PST by anotherview

Jan. 24, 2005 19:31
Germany's Fischer reaffirms commitment to Israel
By JPOST.COM STAFF

At the special session of the UN to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz, Germany's Foreign Minister Joschka Fischer began by saying, "The Shoah is the ultimate crime against humanity of the Twentieth Century."

He said, "Democratic Germany has learned its lessons the Holocaust has left an indelible mark."

Explaining one aspect of this indelible mark, Fischer reiterated Germany's commitment to the State of Israel.

"The State of Israel's right to exist and its people to security will always remain nonnegotiable fixtures of German foreign policy," he declared.

He continued saying, "Our past makes it our duty to combat all forms of anti-Semitism, racism, and xenophobia . We must not turn a blind eye while synagogues are vandalized."

He also stressed the importance of passing on the stories of the survivors to future generations.

"We who can listen to the survivors bear a responsibility to recount their story to future generations," Fischer said.


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Germany; Israel; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: commitment; fischer; germany; holocaust; israel; joschkafischer; shoah

1 posted on 01/24/2005 10:25:40 AM PST by anotherview
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To: anotherview

...except if the survival of Israel should inconvenience Germany in any way.


2 posted on 01/24/2005 10:38:59 AM PST by thoughtomator (Meet the new Abbas, same as the old Abbas)
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To: thoughtomator

Pretty much my thoughts. Germany usually sides with the Palestinians, don't they?


3 posted on 01/24/2005 10:40:33 AM PST by anotherview (Part of the Palestinians' "Zionist enemy" and proud of it.)
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To: anotherview
Not usually; always.

Open challenge... name the last thing Germany did to support Israel in its struggle for survival.

4 posted on 01/24/2005 10:42:17 AM PST by thoughtomator (Meet the new Abbas, same as the old Abbas)
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To: anotherview; Convert from ECUSA

We will never forget and never forgive you for the Holocaust, Germany.

However, its ironic and good to know that in an era in which most of Europe is clearly anti Israel and Jewish(France, Belgium, Sweden, etc.), a country like Germany is not (or at least their governments' policy is not).
Germany is also the closest defense ally of Israel in Europe.


5 posted on 01/24/2005 10:43:17 AM PST by IAF ThunderPilot (The basic point of the Israel Defense Forces: -Israel cannot afford to lose a single war.)
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To: anotherview; thoughtomator

I agree, thought Germany is better than France or Belgium thats for sure.


6 posted on 01/24/2005 10:45:05 AM PST by IAF ThunderPilot (The basic point of the Israel Defense Forces: -Israel cannot afford to lose a single war.)
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To: IAF ThunderPilot

In the same sense as a gang member who just watches a person getting murdered is better than the gang members who do the actual murder, yeah.


7 posted on 01/24/2005 10:49:04 AM PST by thoughtomator (Meet the new Abbas, same as the old Abbas)
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To: thoughtomator

Gee that was awfully nice of them.


8 posted on 01/24/2005 10:51:11 AM PST by samadams2000
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To: thoughtomator; IAF ThunderPilot

What have you smoked recently?
Germany is the closest European ally, and there is no doubt that the existance right of a Jewish state of Israel will always be supported. thoughtomator, I think you are ill informed. The last thing Germany did to support Israel was the delivery of two Patriot Air Defense Systems in early 2003.

That Germany supports a Palestinian state, just like President Bush does, is not a contradiction. It is clear that a Pali-state may not evolve against Israel.


9 posted on 01/24/2005 10:55:14 AM PST by Michael81Dus
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To: Michael81Dus

Furthermore, Germany gave Israel 2 Dolphin subs- considered amoung the top 3 subs in the world- in 50% less cost as a favor for israel. Those subs are capable of delivering nuclear warheards and now they are probably in the Gulf near Iran.


10 posted on 01/24/2005 11:06:39 AM PST by IAF ThunderPilot (The basic point of the Israel Defense Forces: -Israel cannot afford to lose a single war.)
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To: Michael81Dus

I think you need to ask yourself what you're smoking. Closest European ally? Are you kidding? Closer than Italy, Poland, Denmark... even if you're not counting the UK in "Europe"? Up to their necks and then some in Oil-for-Food at the cost of American lives? The German record of perfidy against Israel stretches back at least to 1972. If two missile batteries constitute the best Germany can come up with to demonstrate its support for Israel, that support must be thin indeed.

I think you've heard France referred to as an ally so many times that you've forgotten the meaning of the word.


11 posted on 01/24/2005 11:13:49 AM PST by thoughtomator (Meet the new Abbas, same as the old Abbas)
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To: IAF ThunderPilot

It's too bad it's big news when someone in the UN is praising israel instead of attacking it.

Oh well. I guess you have to take what you can get. :)


12 posted on 01/24/2005 11:15:38 AM PST by bananarepublican23
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To: IAF ThunderPilot

Exactly. The German President will soon speak in the Knesset - in German, just like his precedessor. It´s good to see our relations being good and normal.


13 posted on 01/24/2005 11:22:38 AM PST by Michael81Dus (German)
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To: thoughtomator

Ok, gimme stats: what has the UK, Poland, Denmark or Italy done for Israel? I think you have heard so often the word Iraq that you seem to forget that there are other countries around, have you? You asked for the LATEST what Germany has done, not for a complete list. I think even this is more than the UK or Italy with a comparable size of Germany have done.

Oh, and by the way show me some evidence that Germans were involved in the oil-for-food scandal. It isn´t the case. Maybe you confuse France and Russia with Germany?

Sorry, dude, but you seem to be led by wishful thinking rather than by an analysis of facts.


14 posted on 01/24/2005 11:26:10 AM PST by Michael81Dus (German)
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To: bananarepublican23

Well, in Germany and the US it won´t be big news, but I agree, it´s a terrible situation for Israel that Fischers words are noteworthy. They´re in troubled right now maybe more than ever since the 6-days-war, so it´s quite understandable.


15 posted on 01/24/2005 11:29:59 AM PST by Michael81Dus (German)
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To: Michael81Dus
We weren't comparing those other countries' relationships with Israel. I was challenging your assertion that Germany is the US' best European ally.

As far as Oil-for-Food goes, the statement of the German Foreign Minister in November 2001 on the continuance of that program, combined with the fact that over 80 German companies were involved in the scandal, combined with the German solidarity on ALL related issues with France, the main profiteer outside of Hussein himself, I'd say that plausible deniability is out the window.

Do I really need to go over the endless cavorting of German officials with Yasser Arafat? The hundreds of millions they pour into the PA, while taking zero steps to assure that it doesn't go to fund terrorism? The failure to act at all when it was publicly revealed that yes, in fact, German money was used by the PA to kill Israelis? The subsequent condemnation of the anti-terror wall, the most effective anti-terrorist initiative Israel has conducted since 1973? All their efforts to prevent us from taking out a mortal threat to Israel, Iraq - and the redux we are watching with Iran?

And all this while it was helping both Iraq and Iran to build their nuclear programs.

Germany giving Israel PAC-3s in order to honor its commitment to the United States is not in any way a measure of support for Israel. It was the bare minimum it could do to keep NATO, its protector, from becoming immediately defunct.

I searched, and I still can't find anything substantive Germany has done in support of Israel. Again, I invite you to give an example, something with substance behind it, this time.

16 posted on 01/24/2005 11:55:53 AM PST by thoughtomator (Meet the new Abbas, same as the old Abbas)
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To: thoughtomator

You show me that you know nothing at all!

1. This thread is not about the US! It is about Israel and Germany, and I - as well as IAF ThunderPilot - said that Germany is the closest ally of Israel in Europe.

2. You confuse the oil-for-food-scandal with legal deals between German companies and Saddam until 1991. Since 1991 there were few companies illegally dealing with Iraq, and those businessmen were prosecuted for this. ´Nough said.

3. Don´t confuse the German government with the EU. The financial aid for the PA came from Brussels and as far as it wasn´t directed to lower the suffering in the Palestinian refugee camps but increasing Arafats personal wealth it is ashaming.

4. Ehm, Iraq was certainly not a threat to Israel in 2003, from what we know now.

5. Bring evidence that Germany helps/helped Iran and Iraq in its nuclear program.

6. The Patriots are a symbol of our friendship and not given on demand of the US but of Israel. Btw, you´ll find other proof of German-Israeli friendship on this thread.

I am unwilling to talk anymore with you, since you have no knowledge of facts relating Germany. You are claiming false allegations but haven´t shown up with evidence. It is on you to prove your allegations. I also don´t know why you - with your lack of information - judge the relations between Germany and Israel. Germans and Israelis should know better, shouldn´t they?


17 posted on 01/24/2005 12:09:16 PM PST by Michael81Dus (German)
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To: thoughtomator

http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2618260

Regarding the oil for food scandal


18 posted on 01/24/2005 12:13:01 PM PST by Michael81Dus (German)
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To: Michael81Dus

Obviously we live on two different planets. I spent a half-hour researching to nail down the precise details so that I could relay them to you, and everything you say contradicts the myriad of sources available. The idea that Germany can't be held responsible for funding anti-Israeli terror through institutions that are largely controlled by Germany, for example, is laughable; it's like saying Russia during the Cold War was not responsible for the actions of the USSR.

I think the only matter on which we will agree with respect to this subject is that we will not agree.


19 posted on 01/24/2005 12:16:46 PM PST by thoughtomator (Meet the new Abbas, same as the old Abbas)
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To: thoughtomator
on http://www.caat.org.uk/information/issues/israel-1002.php

you will find:
> "... Germany is Israel's next biggest arms supplier - between 1996 and 2000, it supplied Israel with weaponry worth $765m. France exported major conventional weapons worth $50m to Israel between 1996 and 2000."

The German government does support Israel quite a bit (partly out of guilt, of course), but the public seems to lean more to the Palestinian side.

Here is something of Fischer that was on FR before, but I thought I just bring it back to mind:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/979790/posts?page=12
posting #12

or

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michaelkelly/printmk20030212.shtml

Schroeder and Schily (minister of the interior) had close ties with terrorists in the 70s too.
20 posted on 01/24/2005 12:22:23 PM PST by flieger (No more Moore please!)
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To: thoughtomator

I won´t let you go away. Now you claim to have found evidences on the web, why don´t you post them?
This is not about different perceiptions, it´s about facts! There are no two sides of the truth.

Oh, and have you ever informed yourself how the EU works? You can hardly compare Germany and the EU with Russia and the USSR! I bet you don´t even know how many states make out the EU, and how it´s organized. Germany is not controlling the EU, it´s rather vice versa.


21 posted on 01/24/2005 12:24:04 PM PST by Michael81Dus (German)
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To: flieger

I wholeheartly disagree, we don´t support Israel because of "guilt". Heck, we don´t feel guilt for the Nazi crimes, since we aren´t responsible for them. This was before our time. But we have learned from the past and never want Jews to be victims because of the religion!


22 posted on 01/24/2005 12:26:14 PM PST by Michael81Dus (German)
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To: thoughtomator

Oh, and another thing: Germany does not vote for UN resolutions against Israel. It abstains.


23 posted on 01/24/2005 12:29:26 PM PST by Michael81Dus (German)
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To: Michael81Dus
Out of good faith that you will consider the evidence without prejudice, here you go:

1. This thread is not about the US! It is about Israel and Germany, and I - as well as IAF ThunderPilot - said that Germany is the closest ally of Israel in Europe.

I thought you were talking about Germany as an ally of the US, not of Israel. With regards to Germany as an ally of Israel, you'll note IAFThunderPilot agreed with my statement, not yours (post 6).

2. You confuse the oil-for-food-scandal with legal deals between German companies and Saddam until 1991. Since 1991 there were few companies illegally dealing with Iraq, and those businessmen were prosecuted for this. ´Nough said.

I haven't heard of any German scandal prosecutions. I'd be interested in seeing the details. As far as German involvement in Oil-for-Food and propping up Hussein, according to this German companies did quite a bit of business with Hussein after 1991, with the consent of the German government. Furthermore, when this statement was made the Oil-for-Food scandal was already starting to be known. I just don't find it plausible that the German Foreign Minister didn't have a clue how corrupt it was by that point.

3. Don´t confuse the German government with the EU. The financial aid for the PA came from Brussels and as far as it wasn´t directed to lower the suffering in the Palestinian refugee camps but increasing Arafats personal wealth it is ashaming.

The German government is the core of the EU. Without Germany there would and could be no EU. Germany cannot escape its share of responsibility for where EU money goes, as a disproportionate share is in fact German money. The EU did not give the money over the objection of Germany; on the contrary it was following the Franco-German lead.

4. Ehm, Iraq was certainly not a threat to Israel in 2003, from what we know now.

If you like, I can dig up some Saddam statements about Israel from 2003. Is it really necessary?

The Patriots are a symbol of our friendship and not given on demand of the US but of Israel. Btw, you´ll find other proof of German-Israeli friendship on this thread.

I'd like to read up on that if you have a source.

24 posted on 01/24/2005 12:31:52 PM PST by thoughtomator (Meet the new Abbas, same as the old Abbas)
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To: Michael81Dus

No, that wasn't what I was trying to say, but what we have learned from the past is certainly part of the reason why we support Israel today.

What I was trying to say is, that certain people still want to keep the "collective guilt" feeling alive and make profit with it. And it works. This doesn't help at all to improve the public opinion on Israel in Germany.

See http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p19_reparations.html


25 posted on 01/24/2005 12:48:24 PM PST by flieger (No more Moore please!)
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To: thoughtomator
ad 1. IAF ThunderPilot said explicitly on this thread that he too considers my country a close ally of his nation. Period. Btw, Germany is also a close ally of the US, if not in Iraq, but definitely it has excellent relations on military, economic and cultural matters.

ad 2. your first source states that the state investigates the illegal deals with Saddam. In the meanwhile, those were convicted to jailtime on probabtion. The other economic relations were not illegal (e.g. trucks by DaimlerChrysler). In 2001 the Oil-for-food-scandal was not known and as you can see from Fischers statement, the entire Security Council votes for the program (incl. the US, UK).

ad 3. "Germany cannot escape its share of responsibility for where EU money goes, as a disproportionate share is in fact German money." Do me a favor and replace Germany with "US" and EU with "UN" and the party begins. I doubt that any government of the EU knew how terrible the control by the EU administration about the PA was.

ad 4. Of course you can dig up comments by Saddam. And we can read the statements of the Propaganda Minister. We knew that Iraq was ready to conquer the world according to the Iraqi government. And in our own minds it was evident that Iraq easily could have overrun Kuwait and Saudi-Arabia. However, it turned out otherwise (thankfully) and Iraq IN FACT WAS NO THREAT TO ISRAEL NOR ANY OTHER NEIGHBOUR BY 2003.

From January 17, 2003 issue.

Israel: Two Patriot Batteries To Be Lent By Germany Israel has decided to borrow two Patriot missile interceptor batteries from Germany and expects to receive them within a month, the Israeli Defense Ministry said yesterday (see GSN, Jan. 14).

Israel will borrow the batteries for two years, ministry spokeswoman Rahel Naidek-Ashkenazi said. Israeli crews will operate the batteries, and specialists are being sent to Germany to learn more about modifications made to the systems (Joshua Brilliant, United Press International/Washington Times, Jan. 16).

http://www.nti.org/d_newswire/issues/thisweek/2003_1_23_misd.html

26 posted on 01/24/2005 12:52:02 PM PST by Michael81Dus (German)
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To: flieger

Alright, I agree.


27 posted on 01/24/2005 12:52:40 PM PST by Michael81Dus (German)
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To: thoughtomator; Michael81Dus

What I was really saying, is that I agree with thoughtomator when he said that Germany always vote for the Palestinians in the monthly "condemn Israel ceremony".

I dont know about a single event in which Germany voted for Israel, in fact, except the USA and some islands in the pacific ocean (like Micronesia) all nations vote automatically against Israel, including Poland, UK, Australia, India and other nations that have much better relationships with Israel than France, Belgium, Sweden etc.

Yet, Germany is indeed the closest defense ally of Israel in Europe (unless you consider Turkey as a Europian nation). Another example besides those which were already been written here, are the joint Israeli AF and German AF excercises in 2003.

I would like to see German government's words become to actions. As a beginning, to stop automatically voting against Israel in the monthly "condemn Israel festival" at the UN.


28 posted on 01/24/2005 1:53:08 PM PST by IAF ThunderPilot (The basic point of the Israel Defense Forces: -Israel cannot afford to lose a single war.)
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To: IAF ThunderPilot

Woop? Did I miss something?? Germany always abstains from the vote. It neither supports nor disapproves the "condemn Israel votes" in the UN.

"For Germany, support for resolutions critical of Israel has been rare. The government generally abstains from votes on resolutions dealing with Israel, but there have been exceptions."

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,1564,1272932,00.html


29 posted on 01/24/2005 1:58:29 PM PST by Michael81Dus (German)
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To: Michael81Dus

Stop abstaining and start supporting. Aprove your words.
If you cant arpove your words then dont say them at all.


30 posted on 01/24/2005 2:05:28 PM PST by IAF ThunderPilot (The basic point of the Israel Defense Forces: -Israel cannot afford to lose a single war.)
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To: Michael81Dus

Most Israelis see no difference between the nations that participated in the Holocaust during WW-II and between those who preferd to say nothing.

We also see the same idea and the same connection today in the condemn Israel festivals.

That is a thing that you should understand.


31 posted on 01/24/2005 2:11:28 PM PST by IAF ThunderPilot (The basic point of the Israel Defense Forces: -Israel cannot afford to lose a single war.)
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To: anotherview
"The Shoah is the ultimate crime against humanity of the Twentieth Century."

Ve Germans like to pretend ve are ze best criminals ever. Unzurpassed in brutality. It allows us to ignore crimes like Rwanda or what is goink on in ze Zudan right now, ya? If ve were ze vorst criminals in ze vorld, zen any crimes goink on right now pale in comparison, ya? So ve can ignore zem.

32 posted on 01/24/2005 2:14:00 PM PST by xm177e2 (Stalinists, Maoists, Ba'athists, Pacifists: Why are they always on the same side?)
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To: anotherview
"The State of Israel's right to exist and its people to security will always remain nonnegotiable fixtures of German foreign policy," he declared.

Then he went out into the street and beat a German police officer with a pipe, for old time's sake.

In his defense... he didn't say WHAT SIDE of Israel's right to exist Germany's foreign policy fall on. ;')
33 posted on 01/24/2005 10:14:36 PM PST by SunkenCiv (In the long run, there is only the short run.)
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