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How to talk to an atheist (and you must)
Townhall.com ^ | January 24, 2005 | Mike S. Adams

Posted on 01/26/2005 9:46:21 AM PST by 7thson

When I pulled into the parking lot this morning, I saw a car covered with sacrilegious bumper stickers. It seemed obvious to me that the owner was craving attention. I’m sure he was also seeking to elicit anger from people of faith. The anger helps the atheist to justify his atheism. And, all too often, the atheist gets exactly what he is looking for.

(Excerpt) Read more at townhall.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: atheist; christian; christianity; convertordie; cslewis; god; jesuschrist; mikesadams; religion; wrongforum
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To: Modernman

Ridiculous. I can prove you aren't dead. I can prove I'm not dead.

I can prove I don't have four kids. I can prove I don't have a beak. I can prove Katie Couric is not a Republican.

Proving negatives even has a word associated with it: Disprove.

Atheists are sure God doesn't exist. There isn't room for doubt, else they'd be fine with the appellation agnostic. They aren't fine with that.

OK, that means atheists are sure beyond doubt. As a Christian, I freely admit the role of faith in my positions on Christ. Atheists don't admit the same. They are sure. Good, let's see the evidence and then perhaps I can have my Sunday mornings back. I don't care if they find Christ, Apollo, or Shiva, but they can't tell me they are sure of ANYTHING's non-existance unless they supply proof. This includes the Easter Bunny, or anything else.

In the absence of evidence, only faith exists among adherents to anything. As such, atheism is more a belief system than Christianity is, when you consider that they admit no doubt as to the non-existance of God. There is no spectrum of intensity to their position - just one setting - God doesn't exist.

Everyone else adheres to some sort of spectrum of belief, from "There must be intelligent design to things" to "God made the creation in seven literal 24 hour days" for example.


351 posted on 01/26/2005 1:11:53 PM PST by RinaseaofDs (The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.)
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To: Protagoras

What, specficially, are you disagreeing with? My assertion that they aren't illogical in saying that God and right and wrong can be independent of each other, or when I said that it's a circular argument that cannot be won, since neither side accepts the basis of each other's beliefs to begin with?


352 posted on 01/26/2005 1:14:44 PM PST by exnavychick (There's too much youth; how about a fountain of smart?)
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To: BJungNan
Unless I am misunderstanding you, you are saying we can find out where the tree and the seed came from?

As much as we can find out where anything came from. Within the constraints provided by mathematics at least. For those things outside those constraints, there are few assertions we can make. The point is not that we can discern everything without limits, but that the limits are universal; there are no special exceptions that transcend the underlying math, no matter how much we wish this was not the case.

353 posted on 01/26/2005 1:17:15 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: Modernman
Well, if a judge is incapable of rendering justice then the problem is with the judge, not with the law. There is Canon law that is capable of addressing blasphemy, and there are experts from the realm of the church that can testify in front of a secular judge.

I agree that this society is sick and no rational lawmaking is possible in it. Yes, advocacy groups for the militant left play it like a fiddle. I am yet to see a Christian interest upheld in any measure by today's courts. If I saw anti-Christian speech being stifled on the grounds of blasphemy, -- or really on any grounds, -- I'd share your concerns.

354 posted on 01/26/2005 1:18:20 PM PST by annalex
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To: Renderofveils
You cite the bible, not unusual. I'm sure you're a very pleasant person. I have never made any claim that being an atheist precludes someone from being so.

But, it you are right, it doesn't matter in the end. If it does, please feel free to say why.

355 posted on 01/26/2005 1:19:30 PM PST by Protagoras (No one is fit to be a master and no one deserves to be a slave. GWB 1-20-05)
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To: DannyTN

I think that human life should be considered sacred. That being said, I also think that someone that threatens to end others' lives places himself in that same dangerous position. Yes, I support the death penalty for murderers. Murder is a choice, killing in defense is a response to the threat of your own death. Capital punishment to me is killing in defense of society.

Must we continue? I have no other rational choice. Starve to death? No thank you. Work 7-7 in a mindnumbing job, wasting my time on this planet? Not worth it. Helping others appreciate the profound life they have? Seems noble enough for me. I care because I care, not because a religion has told me that it's the by-product of belief.


356 posted on 01/26/2005 1:21:58 PM PST by Renderofveils (8th Engineer Bn, 1 Cav. "Cannibals!")
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To: RobRoy

I don't see how the existence of a creator gives meaning to what would otherwise be meaningless. In other words, if what the creator created is meaningless when it stands alone, then what the creator has created is meaningless. If I create a gadget which serves no purpose and falls apart if you try to put it to any purpose, it is no more meaningful than if the useless gadget had evolved from "a trick of the cosmos".


357 posted on 01/26/2005 1:22:05 PM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: annalex
Well, if a judge is incapable of rendering justice then the problem is with the judge, not with the law.

The Constitution forbids judges from interfering and determining religious matters.

There is Canon law that is capable of addressing blasphemy, and there are experts from the realm of the church that can testify in front of a secular judge.

Irrelevant. The laws of a particular religion cannot be Consitutionally enforced by a judge.

I agree that this society is sick and no rational lawmaking is possible in it.

Nonsense. Our system works just fine.

I am yet to see a Christian interest upheld in any measure by today's courts.

What exactly is a "Christian interest" and when have the courts struck them down?

358 posted on 01/26/2005 1:24:36 PM PST by Modernman (What is moral is what you feel good after. - Ernest Hemingway)
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To: Protagoras

You have hit my faith on the head. It doesn't matter in the end. That being said, I'm not going to be around in the end to judge what matters and what doesn't. What matters is what takes place between now and the end. ;) That is the body of my belief. I don't feel that I need to believe that there is a purpose, a meaning, what have you. Simply being is enough.


359 posted on 01/26/2005 1:28:43 PM PST by Renderofveils (8th Engineer Bn, 1 Cav. "Cannibals!")
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To: RinaseaofDs
You are the one positing the existance of God. The onus is on you to prove it. It is impossible to disprove the existence of God. The best one can do is conclude that the evidence available does not prove the existence of God.

I can turn it around. Unless you can disprove the existence of the Tooth Fairy, it must exist.

360 posted on 01/26/2005 1:29:12 PM PST by Modernman (What is moral is what you feel good after. - Ernest Hemingway)
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To: Protagoras

> For atheists, there is no logical morality.

Fine. Believe whatever BS you want. Just know that you're wrong.


361 posted on 01/26/2005 1:29:18 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: Protagoras
" I only made that conclusion based on the inability of those who claim morality without God to show why. I'll put my conclusion on hold while you make your case. Have at it.

Here's your conclusion: "The belief that without God there is right and wrong is illogical."

Are you saying that coming to this conclusion, based on the absence of hearing anything is logical?

362 posted on 01/26/2005 1:30:53 PM PST by spunkets
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To: tortoise
But if you want to get all technical and mathematical, then you also have to acknowledge that asserting the existence of God makes a mathematically poorer hypothesis than not.

How?

363 posted on 01/26/2005 1:34:04 PM PST by frog_jerk_2004
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To: ArGee

> But by tough guys surrounding themselves with tough guys we have a tougher race and create a better future for humanity.

Not necessarily. Tough guys surrounded by tough guys can result in:
1) Tough guys in love... no next generation. ("Mongo not that kind of boy...")
2) Tough guys who dominate their neighbors... who finally put the nerds in charge. Tough guys discover that in modern warfare, nerds win. No more tough guys.
3) Tough guys get bored and kill each other.

> I didn't think you could defend it.

That's because humans have learned that co-operation and empathy are *generally* stronger survival tools than naked greed and aggression.


364 posted on 01/26/2005 1:34:04 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: Modernman
The Constitution forbids judges from interfering and determining religious matters

Where? Your paraphrase of the issue is noted: at issue here is not "religious matters" in general but a tort of indecent behavior.

What exactly is a "Christian interest" and when have the courts struck them down?

Christian monuments have been removed from public places or their construction blocked by court decree on numerous occasions and Christian celebrations were denied or curtailed by municipalities, and the crackdowns on religious expression were held up by the imbecile courts. I am sure you can think of specific examples.

365 posted on 01/26/2005 1:36:07 PM PST by annalex
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To: Renderofveils
You have hit my faith on the head.

I know. And it's not faith, it's lack thereof.

It doesn't matter in the end.

So, anyone who does anything is OK.

That being said, I'm not going to be around in the end to judge what matters and what doesn't.

In that bizarre world, no one will be, and there will be no reason to judge, and nothing to judge. Nothing will matter.

What matters is what takes place between now and the end. ;) That is the body of my belief.

It's a pity. A meaningless life doing meaningless things to no purpose.

I don't feel that I need to believe that there is a purpose, a meaning, what have you. Simply being is enough.

I know, it would be an empty feeling for me. Hitler wasn't bad, or good, he just was. Democrats win, or Republicans, no difference in the end. Someone kills your kid, Oh well, they had no purpose anyway, and the person who killed them was just doing what they wanted, and it was neutral in the end.

It must be empty where you live. I truly feel sorry for you.

366 posted on 01/26/2005 1:36:59 PM PST by Protagoras (No one is fit to be a master and no one deserves to be a slave. GWB 1-20-05)
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To: itsamelman

> How about the German who hides Jews from the Nazis? Where's the evolutionary benefit in that act? The German is placing his life in tremendous peril. Or is that not a moral act?

In general, helping other humans who are not threatening you is a way to aid your own progeny.

Humanity has evolved and learned that helping out other humans is a generally useful survival trait. It is thus ingrained into most people. Sometimes these survival traits kick in in situation where they might not strictly be real useful... but that doesn't mean they're not morally right.


367 posted on 01/26/2005 1:37:04 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: Alamo-Girl
Your points are well made, however, there is no need for a believer to substantiate his doctrine with materialistic theory.

There a need for a non-believer to substantiate his non-belief in the absence of priors -- the non-belief is the optimal default position. Compliments of another mathematician, Reverand Thomas Bayes.

Atheists (and agnostics) are asserting the existence of God is a null prior. Non-belief is the optimal/correct default position in this case. You cannot validly assert that the non-belief of an atheist or agnostic is irrational until you establish a non-null prior.

This is THE problem: theists can only convince atheists by establishing a valid prior. This it seems is nigh impossible, and so the default position remains.

368 posted on 01/26/2005 1:38:04 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: Protagoras
In other words, you are embarassed to say it ... was entirely off topic.

No and not at all. Of course, you did mention that, "Jumping to incorrect conclusions is commonplace on this forum."

369 posted on 01/26/2005 1:38:28 PM PST by newgeezer (When encryption is outlawed, rwei qtjske ud alsx zkjwejruc.)
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To: ArGee

> The best way to ensure survival is to be the toughest and surround yourself with the toughest.

Not exactly. I'll take a weenie who's good with a shotgun than a Mr. T wannabe most days.


370 posted on 01/26/2005 1:38:33 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: orionblamblam
Just know that you're wrong.

That won't happen. And what would it matter to you anyway? Wrong? Right? No such thing. If someone killed your kid, it wouldn't matter in the end to you. It's just a neutral act.

Abortion is OK, genocide, euthanasia are neutral. Whores and saints all the same. Bank robbers are the same as charity workers in the end.

And this discussion never happened and it doesn't matter who's right or wrong, because there is no such thing.

371 posted on 01/26/2005 1:41:46 PM PST by Protagoras (No one is fit to be a master and no one deserves to be a slave. GWB 1-20-05)
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To: frog_jerk_2004
How?

Occam's Razor, the formal version.

372 posted on 01/26/2005 1:44:04 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: spunkets
Are you saying that coming to this conclusion, based on the absence of hearing anything is logical?

Perfectly logical. No one can tell me why it matters what they do if there is no God, therefore I must conclude that my conclusion was correct.

But I have already told you, I'll keep an open mind. I withdraw if you can explain why it is. I notice you didn't answer, but instead changed the subject back to my conclusion. Make your case,,,,if you can.

373 posted on 01/26/2005 1:45:42 PM PST by Protagoras (No one is fit to be a master and no one deserves to be a slave. GWB 1-20-05)
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To: orionblamblam
Not necessarily. Tough guys surrounded by tough guys can result in: [list snipped]

Can? Can? You can do better than that. Perhaps they can result in spontaneous combustion also, but they are not most likely to.

That's because humans have learned that co-operation and empathy are *generally* stronger survival tools than naked greed and aggression.

Yeah, as long as that empathy and co-operation is backed up by an army or police force with big guns. You crack me up. Girlie-man societies like the one we live in now are a drop in the historical bucket. This one won't last and we'll be back to the natural order of things.

Don't take what I said too far. Requiring men to defend their property, ability to procreate, and their lives has historically been the best way to ensure a strong species. However, this doesn't mean wonton raping, pillaging, and murdering. That takes a lot of energy anyway. It does mean that you take what you want when you want it. Gluttony toward any apetite is a distraction.

But if a tough guy wants your girl, I hope you have more than just talk about "co-operation and empathy being *generally* stronger survival tools" to defend her with.

Shalom.

374 posted on 01/26/2005 1:46:23 PM PST by ArGee (After 517, the abolition of man is complete)
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To: newgeezer
No and not at all.

Ok, so if you aren't embarrassed, tell me what your point was.

375 posted on 01/26/2005 1:47:03 PM PST by Protagoras (No one is fit to be a master and no one deserves to be a slave. GWB 1-20-05)
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To: orionblamblam
Not exactly. I'll take a weenie who's good with a shotgun than a Mr. T wannabe most days.

Except that Mr. T handled an AK-47.

Anyone who would use a shotgun to defend himself is, by definition, not a weenie.

Thanks for making my point, though. I appreciate the support.

Shalom.

376 posted on 01/26/2005 1:47:26 PM PST by ArGee (After 517, the abolition of man is complete)
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To: tortoise

Do you have a link?


377 posted on 01/26/2005 1:47:57 PM PST by frog_jerk_2004
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To: MineralMan

I would like to ask you a question: Are you afraid to die?
And when you die where do you think you are going?

And what purpose do you think you have in being part of the earth.

I am not being sarcastic, I just cannot understand atheism because in my view of atheism there would be no reason to be alive or to even be born. What is the purpose?


378 posted on 01/26/2005 1:51:40 PM PST by missyme (imho)
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To: Protagoras

> If someone killed your kid, it wouldn't matter in the end to you.

This is how I know you are not only wrong, but seriously messed up in the head.


379 posted on 01/26/2005 1:52:30 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: Protagoras
No one can tell me why it matters what they do if there is no God.

It only matters if one decides that it matters.

Now tell me, how does it matter if there is a God?
380 posted on 01/26/2005 1:52:41 PM PST by BikerNYC
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To: ArGee

> if a tough guy wants your girl, I hope you have more than just talk about "co-operation and empathy being *generally* stronger survival tools" to defend her with.

It's called a Para Ordnance P-14. Built by a bunch of weenie Canucks. Can drop the biggest He-Man with one shot. As they said... God made man, but Sam Colt made them equal.


381 posted on 01/26/2005 1:54:38 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: BikerNYC; MineralMan
Even if God tells us to follow these duties, why should we listen to him?

Good question. Possible arguments include:

It can't come from God, for we can always ask why we should listen to him on the issue.

Sure it can come from God. I don't see why not. But you are right, we can always ask.

"Are you making it up? Is it just a preference of yours? Are you jsut going with the crowd or what your parents taught you? "

I don't believe it's made up or simply a preference. Certainly my parents influenced me and guided me. But in the end it was the preponderance of evidence, which included answered prayers.

"Does something make us believe it? If so, is it not freely chosen?"

Good Point. I think that is why God doesn't manifest Himself in all of His glory. That and the fact that we would die. You know He started to do that with Israel, and as His glory shown over the mountains, Israel told Him to go away, they couldn't stand it.

But I don't think if confronted by certain knowledge of the Almighty, that we would have much choice left. We would worship Him because we had to, and not because we wanted to.

Believing in God does absolutely nothing about relieving us of the responsibility of choosing for ourselves what is right and wrong. Both theists and atheists create our own morality.

I agree with the first part, but not the second. We all have that responsibility of determining right from wrong and doing right. But in the Atheists case, it's meaningless. But then why do they feel that is a responsibility? But we've seen that man can believe that he is doing right and do great wrong. Man, himself, cannot be the determiner of what is right and wrong. The human heart is too deceptive.

What the God of the Bible does is offer us a pure standard. And it's more than just don't do wrong to others, it includes loving others.

382 posted on 01/26/2005 1:54:58 PM PST by DannyTN
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To: ArGee

> Except that Mr. T handled an AK-47.

Have you ever seen how successful thugs are with AK-47's? Hit everybody *but* the target.

> Anyone who would use a shotgun to defend himself is, by definition, not a weenie.

No? Then what is?


383 posted on 01/26/2005 1:55:55 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: Protagoras

Of course our actions matter here, even if athiests believe they'll end up in nothingness. They still have to get to that place first, don't they? It's obvious to anyone that wanton killing, raping, and robbing is a detriment to society. Total chaos.

Common sense can tell you that, and you don't have believe in God to understand that it's wrong for your neighbor to come in and take what you have earned, or kill someone.

If for no other reason that materialistic, here and now reasons...having a code of ethics or morals helps everyone get along. Why is that so hard to understand? Self interest alone is reason enough for people to behave themselves and do right.


384 posted on 01/26/2005 1:58:00 PM PST by exnavychick (There's too much youth; how about a fountain of smart?)
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To: missyme

> I just cannot understand atheism because in my view of atheism there would be no reason to be alive or to even be born. What is the purpose?

Consider this: according to many Christians, non-humans don't ahve souls. Fine, whatever. But ahve you ever known of a mammal - a cat, dog or raccoon, say - that was injured and facing immanent death that did *not* appear to fear for its life, and look to be willing to fight to retain it? Hell, often enough they'll fight to the death against a greater foe they could easily escape for the purpose of protecting their young.

Right, wrong and a fear of death are something not restricted to humans or the religious.


385 posted on 01/26/2005 1:58:53 PM PST by orionblamblam
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To: DannyTN
The following questions are designed to get you to think about what it is you do know and what it is you value.

"If all of life is meaningless, and ultimately absurd , why bother to march straight forward, why stand in the queue as though life as a whole makes sense?" ---Francis Schaeffer, The God Who Is There

Who says life is meaningless? Not this atheist.

If everyone completely passes out of existence when they die, what ultimate meaning has life? Even if a man's life is important because of his influence on others or by his effect on the course of history, of what ultimate significance is that if there is no immortality and all other lives, events, and even history itself is ultimately meaningless?

Who says life has to have an "ultimate" meaning? The word "ultimate" is meaningless in this question. My life has meaning because it is my life. Whether that life means anything to you is open to question. To me, it obviously has meaning.

Suppose the universe had never existed. Apart form God, what ultimate difference would that make?

There's that "ultimate" word again. If the universe had never existed, it would make no difference to me, since I would never have existed either.

In a universe without God or immortality, how is mankind ultimately different from a swarm of mosquitoes or a barnyard of pigs?

Ultimately? Again? To a human, mankind is different from mosquitos and pigs. It matters not whether there is a deity or not. I can recognize the difference, therefore it exists.

What viable basis exists for justice or law if man is nothing but a sophisticated, programmed machine? Why does research, discovery, diplomacy, art, music, sacrifice, compassion, feelings of love, or affectionate and caring relationships mean anything if it all ultimately comes to naught anyway?

Man has created laws and systems of justice under many different belief systems. The things you mention mean a great deal to those who do them or who are affected by them. "It all" does not come to naught, "ultimately" or otherwise. Beethoven's Symphonic works have not come to naught, even though he is long dead. As far as I am concerned, once I'm dead, Beethoven is no longer relevant to me, since is have ceased to exist. I'm sure his music will be relevant to others, though, for long into the future.

Without absolute morals, what ultimate difference is there between Saddam Hussein and Billy Graham? If there is no immortality, why shouldn't all things be permitted?(Dostoyevsky)

It does not take a Christian to see the difference between those two men. One has preached Christianity and has benefitted many lives. The other has been a despot and a tyrant and has killed many people. As a human, I value my own life, which leads me to value the lives of others. As a human, I can think and make decisions on morality. Dostoevsky was asking a stupid question, for effect. He knew the answer to that question. How much Dostoevsky have you read.

If morality is only a relative social construct, on what basis could or should anyone ever move to interfere with cultures that practice apartheid, female circumcision, cannibalism, or ethnic cleansing?

On the basis of one's own societal moral values. I live in a society that condemns all of those things. I believe in the rules of my society because they make sense to me. On that basis, I condemn all those acts. Do not make the mistake of believing that Judaims and Christianity have presented a single moral stance throughout its history. It has not. All morality is social. All morality is relative.

If there is no God, on what basis is there any meaning or hope for fairness, comfort, or better times?

Hope is human. We all hope, deity or no deity. I hope for better times, but celebrate the times I am in. I hope for good health, but try to do things to continue in good health. Like all humans, I will die one day. I hope I will be remembered kindly by those whose lives I have touched. No deity is required for hope.

Without a personal Creator-God, how are you anything other than the coincidental, purposeless miscarriage of nature, spinning round and round on a lonely planet in the blackness of space for just a little while before you and all memory of your futile, pointless, meaningless life finally blinks out forever in the endless darkness?

I am nothing more than that, nor do I pretend to be. The negative words, "miscarriage, futile, pointless, and meaningless," however, do not describe my perception of my life on this planet. Those are subjective words, and do not describe my experience.

386 posted on 01/26/2005 1:58:55 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: MineralMan

Mineral Man,
If you once embraced GOD and were attempting to do his work, how do you know Satan did not lure you away from GOD.

This kind of struggle happens to people on a daily basis when it comes to tempatations and faith Satan can tempt somebody to the point of leading them away from GOD how do you know that did not happen to you?

Are you also to the point that you need to see Jesus appear right in front of you for you to believe again?


387 posted on 01/26/2005 2:01:07 PM PST by missyme (imho)
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To: DannyTN
Good question. Possible arguments include:
* We owe our existence to Him since He is our Creator.
* He is smarter/wiser/more capable than us and therefore someone we should listen to.
* As our designer, He knows what's best for us.
* What He is asking us to do, love, mercy, justice is the right thing to do.
* Because He has power to determine our fate.
* Because He loved us first, while we were sinners


Those are fine answers, but tell me where any of those rules comes from.

For example, why should we do what our creator tells us to do? Just because he tells us to? That sounds rather circular.

He should do what he tells us because he loves us first? Why should we do what the entity who loves us first tells us to do?

All of your reasons are good ones, but they are all your reasons. They are not God's. You are deciding, for better or worse, that it is good to listen to God for all of those reasons, yet the only grounding for those reasons is your own choice. Accordingly, you are making your own morality and the "pure standard" you speak of is nothing but one standard among many.

We all have that responsibility of determining right from wrong and doing right.

Why should we do what's right when that right is defined by something other than ourselves? Because God can cause us pain? But still you define your own morality. It is better to do what you are told than to experience pain. That rule does not come from God, it comes from you. You decide what is right and wrong for yourself whether you believe in God or not.
388 posted on 01/26/2005 2:05:06 PM PST by BikerNYC
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To: orionblamblam
No? Then what is [a weenie]?

Somebody who counts on cooperation and empathy to guarantee his additions to the gene pool.

Thanks for your comment about Sam Colt. Again, you made my point.

Shalom.

389 posted on 01/26/2005 2:05:39 PM PST by ArGee (After 517, the abolition of man is complete)
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To: missyme

"I would like to ask you a question: Are you afraid to die?
And when you die where do you think you are going?

And what purpose do you think you have in being part of the earth.
"

Nope, I'm not afraid to die. Everyone does it pretty successfully, so I figure I'll probably succeed at it too. I'm afraid of not living to my fullest potential. When I die, my body will disintegrate into the various chemicals and molecules that make it up.

Whatever purpose I have in being alive and on this planet is whatever purpose I assign to that. I have many purposes, some of which I actually manage to fulfil. Others remain for the future.


390 posted on 01/26/2005 2:06:09 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Protagoras
"Perfectly logical. No one can tell me why it matters what they do if there is no God, therefore I must conclude that my conclusion was correct.

In order to come to the conclusion that something is in fact illogical, then you must be able to show, or prove how it is illogical. You can not come to such a conclusion based on an empty set. It's illogical.

" I notice you didn't answer, but instead changed the subject back to my conclusion. "

Your conclusion is the subject.

391 posted on 01/26/2005 2:06:36 PM PST by spunkets
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To: missyme

"If you once embraced GOD and were attempting to do his work, how do you know Satan did not lure you away from GOD.
"

Sorry, but disbelief in deities also includes disbelief in Satan, another supernatural entity I don't believe in. The two go together.


392 posted on 01/26/2005 2:08:12 PM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Protagoras
Ok, so if you aren't embarrassed, tell me what your point was.

Seems like we've been down this road before.

393 posted on 01/26/2005 2:14:48 PM PST by newgeezer (When encryption is outlawed, rwei qtjske ud alsx zkjwejruc.)
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To: orionblamblam
This is how I know you are not only wrong, but seriously messed up in the head.

A logical course for your posts to take given what you have posted so far on this thread. Very thoughtful.

Why would it matter in the end?

394 posted on 01/26/2005 2:17:04 PM PST by Protagoras (No one is fit to be a master and no one deserves to be a slave. GWB 1-20-05)
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To: orionblamblam

Is it truly Death that is the fear or is the fear of the unknown? If you really know where your going when you die, there is no fear as in an animal they know life by there instinct I don't know if an animal has the ability to know the fear of death rather than they know the emotion of fear.

I don't know if I fear death because I hope and believe I will go to heaven but as a human being I fear or maybe cannot understand would be more like it what I will do everyday.


395 posted on 01/26/2005 2:17:59 PM PST by missyme (imho)
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To: BikerNYC
It only matters if one decides that it matters.

So, killing someone doesn't matter unless you think it matters?

Now tell me, how does it matter if there is a God?

Because we will be separated from him forever. That matters to me, and him.

Unfortunately, it will probably matter to you as well. But I'm not an authority on that and it doesn't matter what my speculation is.

396 posted on 01/26/2005 2:20:45 PM PST by Protagoras (No one is fit to be a master and no one deserves to be a slave. GWB 1-20-05)
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To: GLDNGUN

Ha! ;->


397 posted on 01/26/2005 2:24:17 PM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: orionblamblam
The nasty Christian stickers call for the expulsion from the US of atheists.

Really? I've never seen anything like this.

Once I did see a Christian bumper sticker that annoyed me, something along the lines of "King James is the only true Bible" or somesuch nonsense.

398 posted on 01/26/2005 2:27:14 PM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: Protagoras
So, killing someone doesn't matter unless you think it matters?

Correct. I've decided that it matters to me. The empirical evidence establishes that others have decided that it doesn't matter to them. Since I've decided that it matters to me, I get to claim they are wrong.

Because we will be separated from him forever. That matters to me, and him.

So, you see, you decide what matters to you. That's good. You get to decide those things. You are an active participant in deciding what matters, what has value, what morality means to you; it isn't a spectator sport.

Tell me, why should it matter to me?
399 posted on 01/26/2005 2:28:05 PM PST by BikerNYC
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To: malakhi
All revealed religions have a man turned into a God at their core. All claim to be the middle man between the creator and the created. All claim that man will suffer eternal torture if he does not follow the dictates they are delivering from God. None can offer any proof of their claims. No man who truly believed in God would make these claims. So yes, I do consider them Atheists. At least a true Atheist has the honesty to admit up front that he does not believe.

No man knows the true nature of God, and no man speaks for God. To claim otherwise is to be a liar.

I have no problem with religion. I do have a problem with those zealots who claim to be speaking for God while they empower themselves.

I believe those who prey on the superstitious and weak while claiming to be an agent for God are the true evil...not the imaginary demon called Satan.
...
400 posted on 01/26/2005 2:29:53 PM PST by mugs99 (Restore the Constitution)
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