Posted on 01/26/2005 10:37:01 PM PST by neverdem
If you scorch the outermost fibers of a linen cloth to varying degrees such that when analyzed using a NASA terrain analyzer they reveal a three-dimensional image of a man; and if the same cloth contains type AB blood matching the Sudarium of Oviedo and the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, I'd be more impressed.
I'm an illustrator by trade. I create 3D-looking images the old-fashioned way, using pigment on paper, and by using various computer programs. I also have a degree in mechanical engineering. I find your arguments humorous.
Your arguments would be more convincing if you knew anything about the Shroud.
read later
It plays no part in my salvation either, but for the doubters and un-believers it could be the reason to not doubt and to believe.
I don't mind skepticism - in fact, I think it's great for the Church - kind of like spiritual weightlifting. The great irony is that the so-called secularists are the first ones to dismiss science if it applies to religion...
Keep fighting the good fight...
Of course, there's always the Stradivarius situation. Nobody alive can produce violins comparable to the ones that Stradivarius made. We aren't quite sure how he made them, but there's absolutely no doubt that he did make them.
My guess is that the shroud is an objet d'art. But I've got no proof, so it's only a guess.
Only if your hand is 200 years old! *Grins*
Which is unfortunate, because with the new "accelerator mass spectroscopy" techniques to do carbon dating, the amount of sample needed is miniscule.
Sac, do you have any 200 year old ink?
Some articles that might be helpful to this discussion can be found at http://www.shroudstory.com
"Why No One Can Fully Explain the Pictures on the Shroud of Turin: Why nothing makes sense."
"The Second Face What does an announcement by the Institute of Physics in London mean?"
"The Ray Rogers FAQ Statements of fact that can be proved from the scientific observations." -- Actually 19 short articles on various topics:
The Shroud of Turin images are not painted
The bloodstains are real blood
Why radiation did not cause images
Why scorching did not cause images
Why the carbon 14 samples are not valid
The 1532 fire and autocatalytic process
The meaning of variegated bands
Cellulose decomposition and image formation
Superficiality of the images on the Shroud
Double superficiality and what it means
Body decomposition rates
Why fibers are not involved in image formation
Other dating methods useful for the Shroud
The 1532 fire and image properties
The 2002 restoration consequences
Optical and physical properties of flax
Image properties and the scientific method
Unconfirmed bioplastic polymer coating
Why a bioplastic did not affect carbon 14 tests
See http://www.shroudstory.com
Dan
Interesting.
I have always been interested in the Shroud.
"Professor Stephen Mattingly, from the University of Texas, says ... "...there has to be a scientific explanation."
There "has to be," eh? Ah, the blind faith of the religious bigot.
Link to The Shroud Center in Southern California. IIRC, the center is
only open afternoons Sat. and Sun.
http://www.shroudcentersocal.com/pages/1/index.htm
Think of it, The Blood of The Lamb. Would there be any DNA material surviving? what might those tests show us? The thought of pursuing such testing is actually kind of frightening. Not that anything bad would happen, but just the thought of having the chutzpah to think one could "test" Christ's blood.
I've followed the Shroud controversy for all of my life. Personally I believe that it is, in fact, Christ's burial cloth and that the image was produced miraculaously on His resurrection. I'm fascinated by the various possible histories of this and other relics, such as the "spear of destiny," or the "Holy Rood."
One of the descriptions of the Image of Edessa, one of the possible early names given the Shroud, is as a "tetradiplon," or "cloth folded in eight." if you look at the shroud there are creases where it was long folded and, folding it along the creases results in a tetradiplon with only the face showing. This ties the Shroud to other artifacts that only showed Christ's face.
Some traditions hold that the Templars held the Shroud in secret, until their betrayel by Philip le Bel, and that their reverence for it, when folded only showing the face, is the origin of the charge that they "worshipped a head."
The problem is, what forger could create an image the kind of which would not be known or would not exist until six centuries later? It's like asking me to forge an image the kind of which will not be known until the year 2600 A.D.
The fact that the Shroud image is a photographic negative was not discovered until the late nineteenth century.
The fact that the Shroud image contains embedded 3D topographic information was not discovered until it was passed through a NASA terrain analyzer in the 1970s.
The idea that a medieval forger would deliberately create such an image is vanishingly improbable considering that neither negative images nor 2D terrain maps were known at the time.
The other logical possibility is that this image was produced accidentally. This is also doubtful because the Shroud image has never been duplicated, nor do any other comparable images exist.
Finally, there is the blood evidence. The blood type is relatively rare and matches the blood on the Sudarium of Oviedo and the Eucharistic miracle of Lanciano. Additionally, forensic experts have determined that the blood stains on the Shroud correspond to the blood stains on the Sudarium.
Thanks for the ping!
Gives me chills too.
I've read a couple of books on the Shroud which included the history that you outlined. I find the argument to be very plausible. Another corroborating fact is that artistic renderings of Christ were diverse until the eighth century, when the Shroud of Edessa was discovered. Following that date, Christian depictions of Christ are uniform and resemble the Shroud image.
"There just has to be a scientific explanation." Not if you dismiss the miraculous a priori, which is dogmatism in the worst sense of the word.
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