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HAWKING WRONG AGAIN, RESEARCHER TELLS MARS CONFERENCE (re: wormhole time machine model.
The Press Box ^ | Wed Aug 25 2004 | Belinda Drizdale

Posted on 01/27/2005 1:24:21 PM PST by yankeedame

HAWKING WRONG AGAIN, RESEARCHER TELLS MARS CONFERENCE

Added : (Wed Aug 25 2004)

For Immediate Release:

HAWKING WRONG AGAIN, RESEARCHER TELLS MARS CONFERENCE

by Belinda Drizdale

(cleared for redistribution with World.Net.News credit )

Dateline August 21, 2004 Chicago, Illinois, USA: Research and development engineer Marshall Barnes stood before a packed audience in PDR 9 in the luxurious Palmer House Hilton in Chicago and explained to members of the International Mars Conference (see http://www.marssociety.org/docs/sched_04.pdf bottom of Saturday's schedule, 4:30 ) how Stephen Hawking and others have made as yet undetected errors in their published works.

These mistakes form a pattern of hidden assumptions which may extend elsewhere in the science and technology community, resulting in holding back progress which NASA now recognizes needs more imaginative solutions.

Before it was over no one disagreed with Marshall.

Debate did rage for a while over the ways in which Hawking's betting partner, Kip Thorne was wrong about a wormhole time machine model.

The Mars Society is a non-profit U.S. organization which promotes the expansion of the space program and efforts to send human beings to establish bases on Mars. This year's 7th convention was held August 18th to 22nd in Chicago, Illinois ( http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-mars19.html ).

Marshall submitted his paper's abstract, which asserts that "if Man is to go vigorously beyond his immediate cosmic neighborhood, the shackles that constrict the ability and the willingness, of free form thought, must be broken once and for all; while simultaneously not ignoring the need for rigorous analysis and application of the scientific method to insure that those ideas that appear to be revolutionary breakthroughs do indeed become revolutionary realities".

The presentation "Avoiding Hidden Assumptions While Thinking Outside The Box" drew considerable attention because of the inclusion of Hawking's comments on Thorne's wormhole time machine suggestion, due to the fact that Hawking, who is seen by many as the successor to Einstein, recently admitted to being wrong about the nature of black holes ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3897989.stm ).

This mistake has cost Hawking a bet with a fellow physicist at Cal Tech. According to Marshall, before that admission, he attempted to bet Hawking through his collegue Kip Thorne, whose time travel model Hawking said wouldn't work.

Thorne has yet to respond, perhaps because Marshall does agree that Thorne's wormhole time travel idea wouldn't work either, but for an entirely different reason.

"I found mistakes in it that were more than significant," Barnes said before the talk as he waited outside PDR 9 to go on....

Barnes and his audience were kept waiting more than 20 minutes before he could take the podium and face the expectant crowd of engineers, scientists, teachers and space enthusiasts.

"I just want to hear what he has to say," one school teacher from Cleveland commented. "It seems like it should be interesting at least."

...Marshall began his talk with a bit of levity, reading the bet he had sent to Kip Thorne, offering to take Thorne's place in betting against Hawking and his chronology protection conjecture theory.

Though Thorne hasn't responded yet, Marshall chose to read the bet anyway since its subject would be covered in the presentation.

After delivering the opening statement from the abstract he quickly and effectively revealed errors in interpreting dimensional relationships in geometry made by Rudy Rucker and Michio Kaku, then scored again with an attempt by Kaku to illustrate a closed timelike loop from an example from the sci-fi story "All You Zombies", before plunging headlong into what he's described as the Thorne/Geroch/Wald/Hawking train wreck.

Based on Thorne's idea that two mutually connected wormhole mouth's could become a time machine once one was placed aboard a spaceship traveling near the speed of light, Marshall pointed out numerous miscalculations made by Thorne which kept the audience on its toes.

Laughter broke out though when Marshall introduced the Geroch/Wald factor, where the two professor at the University of Chicago ( see Robert P. Geroch http://physics.uchicago.edu/t_rel.html#Geroch and Robert Wald http://physics.uchicago.edu/t_rel.html#Wald ) had told Thorne that his wormhole idea wouldn't work because when the ship was within 10 light years of Earth that electromagnetic radiation traveling through the wormhole could make it collapse.

Marshall pointed out that this would be impossible because the ship is supposed to fly out and back to Earth within a total elapsed time of 10 years, flying at a sub-light speed.

The ship could never reach a 10 light year distance from Earth because it would never make it back in time. The audience broke out in laughter. Things got a little rowdy when the Hawking part of the equation was introduced.

Marshall described Hawking's chronology protection conjecture, a theoretical physical feature in spacetime physics that Hawking believes would prevent time travel from ever occuring.

He then pointed out how Hawking made the same mistake as Geroch and Wald, pointing to a 10 light year distance from Earth as the point where the wormhole connection would collapse.

The crowd was at first surprised that it was such simple mistake that Hawking made, but then one audience member pointed out that it wasn't the first time, remarking about the admission of the black hole theory error in Ireland. That's when another man suggested that the wormhole still might provide travel to the past because wormholes are from general relativity.

Marshall was not moved.

"The wormhole isn't providing the time travel aspect, only the connection between two different positions in spacetime. Outside those wormhole mouths, it's still the same story as the twin's paradox, even Thorne says so, but then goes on to get things completely confused. He didn't even catch that Geroch and Wald were wrong and it's his own thought model. "

Another audience member sided with Marshall and within moments the full audience was either calculating the problem outloud to their neighbors or arguing with the man in the back.

"It appears that Thorne's train wreck has caused a train wreck here", Marshall smiled wryly from the podium as a woman appealed for quiet near the back.

Marshall continued once the audience settled down. He deconstructed Hawking's chronology protection conjecture, relating how Hawking fails to explain why quantum gravity fluctuations or electromagnetic radiation would build up through any arbitrary opening to the past without doppler effects, further emphasing that connections to the past are not direct connections via linear pathways.

"Deutsch and Wolf use the Everett/Wheeler many-worlds theory to argue for time travel without paradox, but I'll go one further", he commented. "I'll use the Copenhagen interpretation which shows that you only get one outcome from a superposition, whether you want to surmise that the alternate outcome exists in a parallel universe or not. So if you go back in time, or open a door to the past, it's a parallel past, not a direct linear one with a casual relationship to the future you came from. So nothing is going through and then coming back before it left anymore than it does when you open a door to the next room."

Marshall mentioned how Hawking had also been wrong about time reversing, if the universe were to begin to contract instead of expand, something that Hawking admitted to in his movie, "A Brief History of Time".


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: artbell; physics; science; stephenhawking; stringtheory
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The stuff I omitted were simple things like:

B/c various speakers went over the time limit the speech was 20 minutes late
and

A man flew in on his private plane and he was worried he couldn't stay till the end of the lecture.

IOW, nothing relevant to the article

1 posted on 01/27/2005 1:24:21 PM PST by yankeedame
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To: yankeedame

interesting...


2 posted on 01/27/2005 1:28:24 PM PST by Aetius
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To: yankeedame

Maybe he should stick to his budding song-and-dance career?


3 posted on 01/27/2005 1:29:16 PM PST by Darkwolf377 (It can't be said enough: Ted Kennedy left a woman to die while saving himself)
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To: yankeedame
Interesting discussion.
But it couldn't be sustained for long after a few beers.
4 posted on 01/27/2005 1:30:38 PM PST by Semper Paratus
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To: yankeedame

VERY interesting post! Thank you!


5 posted on 01/27/2005 1:31:31 PM PST by Heavyrunner (Socialize this.)
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To: yankeedame

6 posted on 01/27/2005 1:31:55 PM PST by Andy from Beaverton (I only vote Republican to stop the Democrats)
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To: yankeedame
Homer
I wish I'd read that book by that wheel chair guy.
7 posted on 01/27/2005 1:32:02 PM PST by holymoly ("A lot" is TWO words.)
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To: holymoly
"He deconstructed Hawking's chronology protection conjecture, relating how Hawking fails to explain why quantum gravity fluctuations or electromagnetic radiation would build up through any arbitrary opening to the past without doppler effects, further emphasing that connections to the past are not direct connections via linear pathways."

plfff!!! Stupid wheelchair guy!

8 posted on 01/27/2005 1:41:04 PM PST by Stars N Stripes (That's about it. A Tourette's Syndrome adolescent who just discovered The Chomsky Reader. That's all)
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To: yankeedame
Laughter broke out though when Marshall introduced the Geroch/Wald factor, where the two professor at the University of Chicago had told Thorne that his wormhole idea wouldn't work because when the ship was within 10 light years of Earth that electromagnetic radiation traveling through the wormhole could make it collapse.

Marshall pointed out that this would be impossible because the ship is supposed to fly out and back to Earth within a total elapsed time of 10 years, flying at a sub-light speed.

Either the article is written poorly or I just don't get it. Thorne was told that his idea wouldn't work because if the ship was within 10 light years of Earth the wormholes would collapse. So I'm imagining the Earth in the center of a 10 light year diameter sphere; within the sphere no wormholes exist. Marshall's comment about a ten year round trip at sub-light speed simply seems to re-inforce the Geroch/Wald objection to Thorne. Why did that evoke laughter?

9 posted on 01/27/2005 1:44:43 PM PST by whd23
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Comment #10 Removed by Moderator

To: Semper Paratus
nteresting discussion.
But it couldn't be sustained for long after a few beers.

Been there, done that. That's enough said

11 posted on 01/27/2005 1:54:20 PM PST by lafroste (gravity is not a force, dangit)
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To: Art Bell

Ping


12 posted on 01/27/2005 1:59:10 PM PST by lonevoice (Vast Right Wing Pajama Party)
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To: yankeedame

Maybe he's just a retard afterall.


13 posted on 01/27/2005 2:01:57 PM PST by Living Free in NH (Where am I and why am I in this handbasket?)
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To: yankeedame
"These mistakes form a pattern of hidden assumptions which may extend elsewhere in the science and technology community"

Well, duh. And these 'hidden assumptions' are often colored by core beliefs. Nothing new in that.

14 posted on 01/27/2005 2:03:00 PM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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To: Physicist; RadioAstronomer; ThinkPlease; PatrickHenry; snarks_when_bored; Doctor Stochastic

CRANK ALERT!


15 posted on 01/27/2005 2:03:23 PM PST by longshadow
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To: yankeedame
I don't think Hawking will notice this refutation. Nowadays he's cutting loose at t@tty bars.


16 posted on 01/27/2005 2:03:32 PM PST by Selkie (You can argue 'til you're blue in the face, but I'll always be right.)
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To: yankeedame

BTTT


17 posted on 01/27/2005 2:04:51 PM PST by Fiddlstix (This Tagline for sale. (Presented by TagLines R US))
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To: Aetius

My brother and I have been working on a time machine for years. We actually have half of it working. We can go only forward in time at this point, and even that, very slowly. We are looking for funding to complete the othe half of the project. Our big fear is, that going back will be more dificult.


18 posted on 01/27/2005 2:05:56 PM PST by babygene (Viable after 87 trimesters)
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To: longshadow

No ping list deployment unless you advise otherwise.


19 posted on 01/27/2005 2:08:45 PM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: PatrickHenry
No ping list deployment unless you advise otherwise.

Only if you have a "Unintended Irony Ping List"......

As an aside, on can only hope that this guy is better at science than the author is at writing press releases.... but I wouldn't bet on it.

20 posted on 01/27/2005 2:17:23 PM PST by longshadow
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To: Semper Paratus

Oh...I thought that's how the whole thing got started...:O)


21 posted on 01/27/2005 2:18:53 PM PST by yer gonna put yer eye out (Gettin' a PhD (Prettyhard on Democrats) at FR)
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To: All

I think I got this. A light year is about (I've rounded off a bit) 5,878,786,100,000 miles. That's almost 6 trillion miles. If there are no worm holes within 10 lightyears, 60 trillion miles, a ship that goes slower than the speed of light would never make it out there. I guess not knowing that is the funny part.


22 posted on 01/27/2005 2:21:18 PM PST by texan75010 (You lost - MoveOn...to France, or Canada, or New Zealand, or Germany...take your pick.)
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To: whd23

"Why did that evoke laughter?"

Because nobody wants to look like they did not get it (even though they didn't).


23 posted on 01/27/2005 2:45:13 PM PST by unlearner
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To: yankeedame

"various speakers went over the time limit"

After which they pulled a wormhole out of their pocket and corrected their error.


24 posted on 01/27/2005 2:46:38 PM PST by unlearner
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To: babygene

Let me guess, at a 1:1 ratio.


25 posted on 01/27/2005 2:48:15 PM PST by unlearner
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To: yankeedame


Assumptions, theory, what ever it is junk science unless there are proven facts to back it all up.


26 posted on 01/27/2005 2:49:02 PM PST by Dustbunny (The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist)
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To: longshadow
Earlier work by Marshall Barnes:  Marshall Barnes Chat

A crank? Or an unappreciated genius of the highest order? Inquiring minds want to know.

27 posted on 01/27/2005 2:56:30 PM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: snarks_when_bored
A crank? Or an unappreciated genius of the highest order? Inquiring minds want to know.

LMAO!

Great find!

28 posted on 01/27/2005 3:00:29 PM PST by longshadow
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To: longshadow
I should've have linked directly to the main page:

Philadelphia Experiment

The three chats with Barnes are linked from that page (yes, one wasn't enough...there are three!).

29 posted on 01/27/2005 3:08:19 PM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: yankeedame

OK. This time I was completely lost.


30 posted on 01/27/2005 3:10:34 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink.)
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To: snarks_when_bored
Oh, man! What a treasure-trove of psycho-ceramic flakery:

Marshall Barnes - the secret to the transdimensional travel thing lies in the intersection of fractal geometry and chaos math, quantum physics, the Eisntein/Rosen bridge, cybernetically enhanced bio-feedback, altered states of consciousness, Bell's Theorem, crystallography, morphogenetic field theory, and catastrophe topology for the most part.

I think he included everything except the kitchen sink.... And then we have:

Marshall Barnes - ProfessorD, the psychotronics comes into play because what we want to do is interface with the associative universe. In other words, the psychotronics allow us to take advantage of the mind/matter interactions and effect objective reality. That's the current area of my research. I've built a studio for that expressed purpose. It's also how Montauk was done and in many ways, what the Incunabula, Ong's Hat material is based on. They sit in the Egg, they enter an altered state with the destination that they want in mind. But, it is not an out of body experience, per say. Your actual physical body is translocated to another position.

No wonder the people at that conference were laughing during his presentation. It's just not for the reasons he'd like to think.....

31 posted on 01/27/2005 3:11:29 PM PST by longshadow
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To: snarks_when_bored
Can't pass up this gem from your link:

Marshall Barnes - I'll make no bones about it. I intend on taking the ideas from the Incunabula and Montauk Project as far as I can. I firmly believe (and feel that I have the evidence) that I inadvertently remote viewed a parallel world in the late '80s and early '90s and I got certain technologies from there. Now at the time I thought it was just my using my imagination because I didn't know about remote viewing or that parallel worlds had any scientific basis. I was using an altered state technique for mind expansion and enhanced creativity at the time. The results were that I acquired ideas that were advanced for their time. The payoff - as far as them being "evidence" is that they are still advanced now more than ten years later.

Yesiree; we have a certified "Art Bell Show" nutcake who claims he proved Hawking wrong.....

32 posted on 01/27/2005 3:15:21 PM PST by longshadow
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To: longshadow
I was using an altered state technique for mind expansion and enhanced creativity at the time.

It's all clear now (laugh). Timothy Leary, where are you?

33 posted on 01/27/2005 3:21:09 PM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: snarks_when_bored
It's all clear now (laugh). Timothy Leary, where are you?

Where do they find these people? Who in their right mind would listen to a certifiable lunatic like this instead of believing the Lucasian Professor at Cambridge? What mind altering substances are THEY taking?

34 posted on 01/27/2005 3:26:49 PM PST by longshadow
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To: unlearner

"Let me guess, at a 1:1 ratio."

Yea, so far, but we may be able to do some fine tuning...


35 posted on 01/27/2005 3:27:18 PM PST by babygene (Viable after 87 trimesters)
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To: longshadow
Where do they find these people? Who in their right mind would listen to a certifiable lunatic like this instead of believing the Lucasian Professor at Cambridge? What mind altering substances are THEY taking?

Some of the imponderables of this thing called life!

36 posted on 01/27/2005 3:45:38 PM PST by snarks_when_bored
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To: longshadow

Not necessarily drug induced ... don't knock if you haven't experienced it.


37 posted on 01/27/2005 3:49:56 PM PST by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: yankeedame

INTREP - The Great Hawking is wrong?


38 posted on 01/27/2005 6:48:21 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Secularization of America is happening)
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To: babygene

I figured out how to get a 1:1.5 ratio...

work overtime. (But time flies when you are having fun.)


39 posted on 01/27/2005 7:31:32 PM PST by unlearner
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To: longshadow

It has most of the modern buzzwords, anyway.


40 posted on 01/27/2005 8:09:00 PM PST by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: onedoug

ping


41 posted on 01/28/2005 8:01:14 AM PST by windcliff
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To: windcliff
All as fascinating as totally untestable.

Thanks.

42 posted on 01/28/2005 12:01:23 PM PST by onedoug
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3897989.stm

http://www.pressbox.com/detailed/Science/HAWKING_WRONG_AGAIN_RESEARCHER_TELLS_MARS_CONFERENCE_17016.html
http://www.pressbox.co.uk/Detailed/17016.html
http://www.free-press-release.com/news/200408/1092093367.html

alas, this is a dead link, and isn’t on the Wayback:
http://www.marssociety.org/docs/sched_04.pdf


43 posted on 09/06/2010 6:27:41 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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Marshall Barnes Hawking
Google

44 posted on 09/06/2010 6:28:07 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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his blog (I guess):

http://www.science20.com/profile/marshall_barnes


45 posted on 09/06/2010 6:31:20 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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http://www.google.com/search?q=Marshall+Barnes+site:science20.com


46 posted on 09/06/2010 6:32:43 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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To: AdmSmith; bvw; callisto; ckilmer; dandelion; ganeshpuri89; gobucks; KevinDavis; Las Vegas Dave; ...

Note: this topic is from Wed Aug 25 2004.

· String Theory Ping List ·
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47 posted on 09/06/2010 6:34:31 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Democratic Underground... matters are worse, as their latest fund drive has come up short...)
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To: SunkenCiv

When time is observed to be merely a derivative function of state change, then the whole notion of “time travel” becomes mere fiction.


48 posted on 09/06/2010 6:56:58 PM PDT by LomanBill (Animals! The DemocRats blew up the windmill with an Acorn!)
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To: windcliff

Thanks!


49 posted on 09/06/2010 7:22:38 PM PDT by onedoug
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To: babygene
We can go only forward in time at this point, and even that, very slowly.
We are looking for funding to complete the othe half of the project.

ask Obahbah, He has squandered a Hugh Glo-bull warming project.


50 posted on 09/06/2010 7:25:31 PM PDT by skinkinthegrass (Imam Zer0: DeathCARE, Is my only Plan...So just die (quicky), please & save $$$$ :^)
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