Vatican grumbles about gay marriages (strongly condemns same-sex marriages)

Mail & Guardian ^ | January 30, 2005

[NYer]

The Vatican again on Saturday strongly condemned same-sex marriages as well as states which have legalised the practice, during an audience between Pope John Paul II and members of the Holy See's top appeals court.

"Homosexual unions and cohabitation cannot be considered as marriages," Polish Cardinal Antoni Stankiewicz, the most senior judge on the Roman Rota, stressed in an address to the pope.

"To treat homosexual unions the same as marriages, as has been done under the laws of certain countries, does not make them any more valid, whether or not they are legal," he said.

The Roman Catholic Church has labelled homosexuality "a troubling moral and social phenomenon", while staunchly defending traditional marriage as the basis for society.

John Paul II himself made no explicit reference to same-sex marriages, although he accused Roman Catholic tribunals of laxity in agreeing to annul religious marriages.

The Roman Rota acts as an appeal's court in dealing with marriage annulments, intervening when two lower courts reach conflicting rulings in an annulment case.

Out of 135 cases handled by the Rota in 2002, annulment was refused 73 times.
The ailing 84-year-old pontiff warned the Rota judges against "defendants who will resort to forgeries or even corruption in order to secure a favourable ruling".

He also cautioned against the practice of annulling marriages simply on the grounds that they had failed. Annulment is usually granted on grounds of immaturity of one of the spouses, or a defective marriage agreement.

[NYer]

Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II poses with lawyers of the Sacra Rota, gathered in the Clementine Hall for the inauguration of the Vatican (news - web sites) legal year, at the Vatican January 29, 2005

Homosexual "Marriage"

True marriage is the union of one man and one woman. Legal recognition of any other union as "marriage" undermines true marriage, and legal recognition of homosexual unions actually does homosexual persons a disfavor by encouraging them to persist in what is an objectively immoral arrangement.

"When legislation in favor of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral" (UHP 10).
UHP Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Considerations regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions between Homosexual Persons

[NYer]

Pope John Paul (news - web sites) II listens a speech from one of the lawyers of the Sacra Rota, gathered in the Clementine Hall for the inauguration of the Vatican (news - web sites) legal year, at the Vatican January 29, 2005

Catholic Ping - please freepmail me if you want on/off this list

[Kuksool]

Kerry and Hillary will attempt to woo devout Catholics by saying there were less gay unions under the Clinton Administration than under the Bush Administration.

[nothingnew]

The Vatican again on Saturday strongly condemned same-sex marriages as well as states which have legalised the practice, during an audience between Pope John Paul II and members of the Holy See's top appeals court.

So? What's he gonna do about it? Excommunicate some Catholic priests? Ya know, I've read a lot about the Pope and all his underlings talking real tough about some Catholic people doing a lot of things against the teachings of the church. When is he and his cohorts going to do something about it? Not that it would matter, but talk is cheap.

Follow the money.

FMCDH(BITS)

[longtermmemmory]

nice propaganda trick. "Grumbles" implies inevitability. Judging from the 12 states that passed DMA amendments with such wide margins that it suggests the only inevitability is the citizens rejecting homosexuals marriage and in turn homosexuality.

Then again, consider the source.

[Kolokotronis]

""When legislation in favor of the recognition of homosexual unions is proposed for the first time in a legislative assembly, the Catholic lawmaker has a moral duty to express his opposition clearly and publicly and to vote against it. To vote in favor of a law so harmful to the common good is gravely immoral""

While I agree 100% with the sentiment and instruction contained in this regulation, I suspect there is not one single person on FR who believes for one minute that there is even one authority in the Vatican, let alone in the USCCB who will actually sanction a Roman Catholic politician who does not follow this instruction. With all due respect, the problem therefore is with these sorts of pronouncements. They are issued, nobody enforces them and contempt spreads for all the teachings of the Roman Church. Then people wonder how the Roman Church got in the fix its in.

[NYer]

What's he gonna do about it? Excommunicate some Catholic priests?

Homosexual marriage is banned in the Catholic Church. What's your point? Oh .... one more attempt at bashing catholics for their stance on marriage between a man and a woman.

[longtermmemmory]

Lets not forget the 1996 DOMA. Hitlary is a lawyer and she KNOWS a law can and will be trumped by the first homo-advocate judge.

Kerry was torpedoes by his faux opposition for homosexual marriage. I bet Hitlary has a 100% voting pro-homo record from HRC.

[NYer]

Where does the Orthodox Church stand on this subject?

[Salvation]

What the Catechism of the Catholic Church says about homosexuality

[TOUGH STOUGH]

Ping!

[Kolokotronis]

The Orthodox Church condemns "gay marriage", in fact Metropolitan Methodios of Boston joined in an amicus brief filed on behalf of the anti-gay marriage forces in the Massachusetts Supreme Court case.

I have not heard that Orthodox legislators have been instructed to vote one way or the other on this issue, but the Metropolitan has been quite outspoken in his opposition to this outrage. I would expect that any legislator who voted for a gay marriage bill (and I am sure they would be lobbied before the vote) would be called in and probably given a warning. If they persisted in such a vote, they would be refused communion. I know that has happened with abortion votes.

[TOUGH STOUGH]

I think you misunderstood nothingnew.

[longtermmemmory]

The Greek Orthodox (and other Orthodox churches) are dead square against homosexual marriage.

Both IN the USA and in Greece.

The Russian orthodox church actually demolished one of their own churches after a homo-couple bribed an old priest to marry them in a church. The church was scheduled to be demolished as part of an upgrade but "at some point". The demolition was accelerated because the homo-"marriage" desecrated the church.

[longtermmemmory]

Olympia Snow's vote agains the FMA is an embarassment.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

It is true. Even the few good ones are afraid to act.

One of the only ones with the courage to do it is Bishop Fellay but he does not hold ordinary jurisdiction.

[Kolokotronis]

Absolutely!

[Kolokotronis]

To be fair, though, it can be argued that this is a matter for the states alone and none of the Federal government's business, at least that's the argument.

[sanchez810]

[longtermmemmory]

from: http://www.goarch.org

specifically

http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article7101.asp


"... Thus, the Orthodox Church condemns unreservedly all expressions of personal sexual experience which prove contrary to the definite and unalterable function ascribed to sex by God's ordinance and expressed in man's experience as a law of nature. The Orthodox Church believes that homosexuality should be treated by religion as a sinful failure. In both cases, correction is called for. Homosexuals should be accorded the confidential medical and psychiatric facilities by which they can be helped to restore themselves to a self-respecting sexual identity that belongs to them by God's ordinance. ..."

[NYer]

The Orthodox Church condemns "gay marriage", in fact Metropolitan Methodios of Boston joined in an amicus brief filed on behalf of the anti-gay marriage forces in the Massachusetts Supreme Court case.

Then both churches are united against homosexual marriage, right?

I would expect that any legislator who voted for a gay marriage bill (and I am sure they would be lobbied before the vote) would be called in and probably given a warning.

But you doubt the Catholic Church will do this to a catholic legislator? Is that your point?

[NYer]

The Russian orthodox church actually demolished one of their own churches after a homo-couple bribed an old priest to marry them in a church.

I vividly recall this incident and applauded it. In fact, I posted the story to the Religion Forum. God bless the Metropolitan who authorized the church's destruction!

[longtermmemmory]

I believe the churches can and should start to use their sunday schools to teach homosexuality as a wrong behavior.

There is nothing wrong with teaching children (at a child's level) that marriage is one man and one woman; and not one person and a dog, not two boys or two girls, or a person and a pineapple. It can be easily weaved into the lessons on the sacraments. This must be done before they start going to public schools.

[Kolokotronis]

" But you doubt the Catholic Church will do this to a catholic legislator? Is that your point?"

I suspect they might be warned in some places. The part I doubt is this:

"If they persisted in such a vote, they would be refused communion."

[Kolokotronis]

" But you doubt the Catholic Church will do this to a catholic legislator? Is that your point?"

I suspect they might be warned in some places. The part I doubt is this:

"If they persisted in such a vote, they would be refused communion."

[NYer]

Thank you for that beautiful photograph!

[newzjunkey]

The sacrament has nothing to do with the legal contract, the state licensing issue. Thus, this is a nonsequitur to the ongoing political debate.

[NYer]

Again, the Catholic and Orthodox Churches make the same stance on this topic! We are united in this.

[NYer]

The part I doubt is this: "If they persisted in such a vote, they would be refused communion."

Oh, I see. That is left up to the diocesan bishop. As we have seen, some are stronger in their approach than others. Some use denial of the sacrament to teach a lesson while others privately call them in for a 'talk' to remind them of the church's stance. There is always the hope that they will have a change of heart. Even Christ dined with sinners.

[sanchez810]

Ok! :)

[NYer]

I believe the churches can and should start to use their sunday schools to teach homosexuality as a wrong behavior.

I agree wholeheartedly!

[Kolokotronis]

" There is always the hope that they will have a change of heart. Even Christ dined with sinners."

We Greeks are nowhere near that forgiving! :)

[humblegunner]

strongly condemns

Hmm.. isn't that what the ineffectual, powerless and outdated UN does when they dislike something?

Not to draw a parallel or anything...

[oceanperch]

I think it is important that the Vatican keeps stating that homosexual marraiges are not reconized by the Church.

They could spend some time speaking up on some other issues as well.

Most Catholcs by choice of Free will who are choosing to live adulterous or other lifestyles usually aren't excepting to attend Church except twice a year, all of us need to go to Confession before Recieving Holy Communion and examine our lives daily as active Catholcs.

I have lust in myheart from time to time but I don't live a daily lust filled lifestyle, occasional hormonal knee scrapes yes.

Homosexuals are pushing their sin as an acceptable lifestyle on the Catholic Church. Makingthemselves as Gods not giving their life to God.

I don't see Mr. X who is Baptized Catholic and raised in the Church but by his own free will as a married man sleeping around openly up ranting that the Church except his sin.

If all the Mr. X's started wanting the Church to reconize their adulterous lifestyle then I am sure the Vatican would be issuing statements against the Mr. X's

We are all sinners but we do not go around trying to flaunt or take others down with us. That would be evil IMO.

[Kolokotronis]

Well, this is good news. The Roman Church is so large and so powerful in this country that it is past time for it to start putting some teeth in its instructions. You will undoubtedly lose a few, but the remainder will be strengthened and you'll gain many more.

"However, if you follow closely the statements of Cardinal Arinze, an African prelate of great holiness, I think you can see what the ascendant Church believes."

You will find that there are many Orthodox, especially in this country (myself included) who pray this man will be the next pope.

[nothingnew]

...one more attempt at bashing catholics for their stance on marriage between a man and a woman.

Not at all. I'm not "bashing Catholics"...I'm bashing the 'leadership', who won't take action against those that diminish the church. I was brought up Catholic and left that church when, at a fairly early age, could see the hipocracy. Don't speak to me about bashing. The Papacy won't take a strong stand against the real bashers of Catholicism because the Papacy needs the money. Follow the money.

FMCDH(BITS)

[Zack Nguyen]

God bless 'em. The Pope is right.

[nothingnew]

BTW...why are the "catholic" politicians that support abortion not excommunicated and can still recieve Communion? Answer that for me, would you?

What a farce.

FMCDH(BITS)

[little jeremiah]

Homosexual Agenda Ping.

Good news from the Catholic Church. And from Greek Orthodox. And remembering what the Russian Orthodox folks did to a church where two men were "married".

The more all people of faith can stand together on the moral absolutes we all share and hold dear, the sooner the powers of darkness will retreat.

Let DirtyHarryY2K and me know if anyone wants on/off this pinglist.

[longtermmemmory]

Not any more, every single case before the courts now is a federal law argument. (full faith and credit etc.) The beauty of the Federal Marriage Amendment is that it keeps the common law definition of marriage and then leaves it to the states to do any "marriage-lite" they may want.

[Kolokotronis]

Oh, I know. I've read a number of the filings. I also know that the gay marriage partisans are not all that confident of victory except perhaps at the US District Court level. They really believe their best hope is in the state courts (not legislatures). I'm not all that sure on either point, given the most recent state court decisions on the one hand and the propensities of the 9th Circuit on the other.

[FreeRep]

Hi, new Poll..
Should the Kansas Constitution be amended to define marriage and civil unions as between one man and one woman only?
http://www.hdnews.net/