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Immigration Reform - So Few Words, So Much Meaning
My Own Thoughts | 02/02/2005 | doughtyone

Posted on 02/02/2005 11:06:49 PM PST by DoughtyOne

There is a fine line that one should walk these days, when discussing the Presidency of George W. Bush. I say this because I firmly believe that the President is a good man. I believe that he is truly a Christian. Unlike a recent occupant of the White House, he does love and honor not only his wife, but his children, his parents, his extended family, his supporters and his God.

President Bush was handed a difficult task, in September of 2001. He has met that task head on, and in a number of ways, has provided an excellent response. His directives concerning Afghanistan and Iraq have been masterful. I am so glad that he had the foresight to appoint Donald Rumsfeld his Secretary of Defense, and Condoliza Rice his National Security Advisor. Both these individuals are sharp as tacks, and have obviously contributed towards the goals the President set for the nation, and seems to be achieving. Threading a fine line between being too receptive to those who wanted him to hold off some military moves, and taking a harder line suggested by the other end of the spectrum, President Bush seems well on his way to liberating for generations to come, the inhabitants of two nations in the middle-east.

There have been times when I wondered if the President were doing the right thing at certain points. This last Sunday, I along with others were pleasantly surprised at how well things have come together. The Iraqi people went to the polls in great numbers. Even those who had wished the President well in his efforts in Iraq, were relieved that the elections were so successful, I among them.

When it comes to the war in Iraq, when it comes to standing up against the leaders of Europe, when it comes to defining the path that we will take to repair Social Security, the President has my full support. I am very glad to have someone in the White House who advances policies on these issues, the way he does. His talk on these and a number of other issues is like sweet music to my ears. How sad I am that I must now talk about the fingernails on the chalkboard issue of our time, illegal immigration.

The President for all his power, for all his positives and all his good intentions, is still a man. He is a man that has many fine qualities. He is also a man that can and sometimes does make a mistake. I consider his desires to change certain aspects of our immigration policies, to be a colossal misjudgment. Unlike Iraq where I felt very uneasy, but avoided for the most part challenging the President's actions early on at Fallujah, and a few other places, I can see no room for compromise concerning the ongoing invasion of the United States.

This evening the President once again addressed the issue of immigration. Once again the meaning was crystal clear to those of us who disagree with him on that subject. Before I continue I want to be clear about something. I address this issue, because this is the issue where I find fault with the President. I don't do this because I am happy to have one issue to disagree with him on. I am very unhappy that I have to address this issue. I shouldn't have to at all, but this issue is important enough that I am going to address it continuously until the issue is resolved, the policies I cannot endorse are changed to protect this nation. That should be our overriding concern here. It is mine.

Here is what President Bush said this evening. This is the way I see the issues he raised.

America's immigration system is also outdated - unsuited to the needs of our economy and to the values of our country.

There are three issues in this charged sentence. I do believe that there are areas for improvement regarding the guidelines and procedures that govern Visas and short term visitors to the United States. I have no problem with the President trying to get a handle on who is entering our nation, how long they stay and whether they actually go home or not. This is not just an issue with Mexico. It's an issue that confronts us across the board with all who enter this nation. In this, I can support the President. I believe he is wise to address this component of the immigration issue.

Where the President and I part ways, is when he implies that our economy can't meet it's needs without poor, uneducated, unable to be financialy responsible for themselves, men and women from foreign countries. If the President were addressing the problems of the world's poor, I might be more inclined to listen to his proposals, but he isn't. This isn't about the world's poor. It's about one nation's poor. Yes, illegal immigration has an multi-national component to it, but it is primarily one nation that is flooding ours with it's citizens. I can't help but address this fact. It's true and so this one nation is addressed more than any other, for it's sordid practices.

When it comes to the issue of values, it is clear the United States is second to none when it comes to philanthropy. Our citizens give medical, educational, housing and other forms of help to the citizens of Mexico in Mexico. Physicians, nurses, teachers, aid workers, volunteers have been conducting mission work in Mexico for as long as I can remember. This represents our values. We are a good-hearted people who wish the best for the Mexican people. We gain no pleasure from seeing their national leaders abuse them, and I am firmly convinced this is the true condition of Mexico.

Values are not one-dimensional, and they don't exist in a vacuum. Extending a helping hand to millions of new Mexican poor each year is an admirable goal. The question is, how do you achieve that? Do you allow them to pour across your frontier in an endless stream that creates instant slums where ever they go? Do you allow them to swamp your communities, health care and education resources? Do you allow them to soak up tens of billions of dollars of funding that citizens have every right to expect to be spent on their local community and state needs? The answers to these question are a resounding no.

If I want to help someone out, I dig in my pocket and donate the appropriate amount based on what I can afford, what the actual need is. If you were to do that with my money it wouldn't be right. When the government does it, it's not right either. In fact, it would show a complete avoidance of reasoned values to do such a thing. Please don't talk to me about this nations values, while suggesting that I and hundreds of millions of other U.S. Citizens will have to hand over our hospitals, schools, infrastructure, and even a portion of our futures, so this can be facilitated.

We should not be content with laws that punish hardworking people who want only to provide for their families, and deny businesses willing workers, and invite chaos at our border.

These sentences are some of the most charged sentences I've ever seen. At once they are complex, a misdirecting slight of hand, and dishonest.

Mr. President, your fellow citizens are hard working people who are trying to provide for their families. What about folks like us? Why do you seek to punish us so that others can get services for free that we cannot? Why should non-citizens get free health care while we have to pay through the ying-yang to get it? Does it really seem like good values to you, to allow businesses to pay sub-scale so that illegals can work, when I and my fellow citizens have to pay so much for their health care, education, and other assorted freebies? Why should we subsidize these businesses this way? Does it seem like a good idea to flood this nation with people who have only a 4th to 8th grade education? How will they put a roof over their head on minimum wage? Who will feed clothe and house them? Who will pay for the deliveries of their children? What community can thrive with tens of thousands of these poor people in their midst? We are talking about instant slums across this nation. Some localities will be besieged in greater numbers than others. Where is your compassion for them?

Mr. President, there is only one group causing chaos at our border. It is the illegal alien who has shown themselves unwilling to respect the laws of our nation. When you frame the debate the way you have, you simply side with them. And I might add, you side with them against us. Why? What did we do to deserve this?

It is time for an immigration policy that permits temporary guest workers to fill jobs Americans will not take, that rejects amnesty, that tells us who is entering and leaving our country, and that closes the border to drug dealers and terrorists.

Mr. President, I'll make a deal with you. If you respect me, I'll respect you. Please do not insult my intelligence by claiming these will be guest workers. At this very minute, you are loathe to send anyone back to their nation of origin. How can you expect me to believe that in six years, you'll be sending anyone back to the nation of their origin then? You know as well as I do that these guest workers will bring families that we, not they, will pay for. They will develop homes here. They will invest years of their lives here. Who are you trying to kid? You're not going to send even one of these people home. Instead you will be asking to up the quota.

Here's another question for you Mr. President. Is it fair to the other citizens of the world to have millions of Mexican citizens enter our nation through expanded immigration quotas, while they have to go through all the same procedures they always have? Would it be a good idea to open up our guest worker program to all the world's poor? Should we allow millions from every poor nation around the world, to enter our nation each year? If not, then how do we justify it for one nation?

Here's a problem you haven't seemed to consider. If we allow two million worker permits per year, do you think that will end illegal immigration? It won't. Those who can't get in under any quota you set, will continue to come over the border as they always have. You'll immediately have a worker entry program, the continued illegal immigration on top of that, and the folks who were here when it all started. We're looking at thirty million people within five years. We have ten to fifteen now. We'll let another million or two in each year legally. We'll still have illegal immigration. And while all this goes on, we'll still have hospitals and schools inundated at a rate double what it has been.

Where is the solution in this Mr. President? What will it resolve? We'll have infrastructure crumbling faster than before, health care and education already on the ropes, placed on life support.

Illegal immigration will still see millions of undocumenteds coming across. Gang and terrorist group members among them.

You see Mr. President, you would have to close the borders to illegal immigrants for this plan to work. Unfortunately, you have refused to do that. In light of that your plan will never work. This nation will just be torn apart one neighborhood at a time at an even faster rate than it has been, until someone finally turns out the lights.

I sure wish I didn't have to address this issue. This plan doesn't make sense on any level. With that last comment, I'll just concede that folks in Washington won't be able to resist it. What a sad day for America it will be, when this plan hits the ground running.


TOPICS: Editorial; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: aliens; borders; illegal; immigrantlist; immigration; immigrationreform; reform; stateoftheunion
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1 posted on 02/02/2005 11:06:49 PM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: DoughtyOne

How would YOU seal the borders?


2 posted on 02/02/2005 11:20:49 PM PST by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all things that need to be done need to be done by the government.)
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To: DoughtyOne

Good stuff Doughty.


3 posted on 02/02/2005 11:23:24 PM PST by primeval patriot
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To: primeval patriot

This is the weak link of the Republican party...why I gave Bush a 99 instead of a 100 for his SOU speech. Tancredo alone can't carry the water and the beltway crowd ignores this realty at their own peril...even Rushbo has realized it's a major problem.


4 posted on 02/02/2005 11:29:31 PM PST by lawdog
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To: DoughtyOne
"Why should non-citizens get free health care while we have to pay through the ying-yang to get it?"

Federal law only requires that emergency rooms that participate in Medicare have to "stabilize" anyone brought in regardless of ability to pay. After that, it is state laws, city/county laws, hospital district rules, hospital policies, etc... that mandate further treatment.

It's not Bush's fault.

This is just one example of many problems that people blame on Bush instead of their local politicians who should have solved it.

5 posted on 02/02/2005 11:35:08 PM PST by bayourod (Unless we get over 40% of the Hispanic vote in 2008, President Hillary will take all your guns away.)
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To: bayourod

That is not true. Once a patient has presented at an emergency room, they cannot be refused service. Further, that service will include being treated until they are stabalized, and if in need of surgery or other lifesaving measures, it WILL be provided.

Any hospital that refuses WILL lose their ability to recieve payment for government services.

Please tell us the name of one hospital in the United States that doesn't receive Medicare funding.

Who are the ill for the most part? It's the elderly. Yeah, lots of hospitals refuse service to the majority of their demographic group.


6 posted on 02/02/2005 11:40:29 PM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: DoughtyOne

Excellent post.

I missed the "immigration" part of the speech, which is a good thing because had I heard it, I could not have stomached the rest.

President Bush is very determined on this issue and will not give it up, nor will he stop insulting our intelligence. Conservatives will have to keep the pressure on Congress to fight it.

I honestly don't believe the GOP as a whole would be stupid enough to support his proposal. But if they do, they'll lose in more ways than one.


7 posted on 02/02/2005 11:41:03 PM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: DoughtyOne

It's impossible to seal the borders. Look at the failure of the 66 mile Tijuana sector with double fences, flood lights, patrol roads, UAVs, helicopters, dogs, ATVs, etc...

The beauty of the guest worker program is that it's self-enforcing.

Illegal immigrants will want to become legal guest workers and employers will want their employees to become legal guest workers.

If guest worker status is available, there is no incentive for anyone to be an illegal border jumper or any employer to hire an illegal.

Everyone wins (except the racists and Bush-haters)


8 posted on 02/02/2005 11:41:40 PM PST by bayourod (Unless we get over 40% of the Hispanic vote in 2008, President Hillary will take all your guns away.)
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To: DoughtyOne

Very thought-provoking. Would that there were a simple answer to this. Jesus said "The Poor You Will Always Have With You" and ain't that the truth....

Exporting Capitalism and Freedom south and not just to the Mideast seems like a good idea....


9 posted on 02/02/2005 11:42:50 PM PST by The Spirit Of Allegiance (ATTN. MARXIST RED MSM: I RESENT your "RED STATE" switcheroo using our ELECTORAL MAP as PROPAGANDA!)
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To: bayourod

The beauty of the guestworker program is that it will dump one to two million more each year into this nation on top of the illegal immigration already taking place. You think two million worker permits per year will stop it, but four, six, ten million want to come. Then there's those who already have a record up here. They'll just bop up here anyway.

Unless we close the border there will be no sanity to any program.

Then there's the problem of proven racism. Worker permits can't just be given to Mexicans. We have to provide equal access to every nation of the world, per capita, or we've set up a preferential situation. That is racist.

If two million Mexicans can come across in addition to normal immigration, then Panama should be able to send up an equal percentage of their populace. China, Vietnam, Russia, England, India, Malaysia, Palestine... you name it, it's a free-for-all for everyone. Otherwise, the people who support the program are by definition racists.

I note you support it.


10 posted on 02/02/2005 11:48:20 PM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: DoughtyOne
Where the President and I part ways, is when he implies that our economy can't meet it's needs without poor, uneducated, unable to be financialy responsible for themselves, men and women from foreign countries.

Agree 100%.

11 posted on 02/02/2005 11:49:52 PM PST by Penner
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To: Blurblogger

I agree with that, but first I'd kick old Jorge Fox in the arse on his next visit up here, and tell him to get his house in order. I'd give him six months before I'd start a program to offer the Mexican public a way to overthrow the assholes who run that nation now.

We could then help them open up the economy and move into the current century.


12 posted on 02/02/2005 11:50:55 PM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: bayourod

I notice one thing --- you seem extremely pro-Mexican government --- anything they tell us must be done? How about them fixing up a problem or two?


13 posted on 02/02/2005 11:53:20 PM PST by FITZ
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To: Penner

Thank you.


14 posted on 02/02/2005 11:55:18 PM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: primeval patriot

Thank you.


15 posted on 02/02/2005 11:55:30 PM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: DoughtyOne

A country like Mexico which can produce as many billionaires as Great Britain should be required to pay for the free education and health care it's citizens are taking here. American taxpayers should not be paid --- and it's incredibly irresponsible that our leaders are allowing this situation to go on ---- why isn't Mexico being sent a bill?


16 posted on 02/02/2005 11:55:35 PM PST by FITZ
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
How would YOU seal the borders?

Look at this map:

In the middle, a rich country of less than 4 million. Up top, a poorer country of 25 million. At bottom, a dirt poor country of 200 million. How could those borders be kept secure? All you need is a rowboat.

Now read the story of one public servant who helps do just that:

A Day in the Life of a Public Officer

I draw your attention to this sentence:

"We do our very best to secure a conviction for every case that we deal with."

They mean it. It works. It can be done. All you need is the will and the courage.

17 posted on 02/02/2005 11:57:01 PM PST by John Locke
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To: DoughtyOne

My I fax this to Tom Tancredo and ask that he give this to the president? I'd send it to The White House but it would go into the round file. I'd like to make copies for friends to mail to him also. We would note on it that we are not the author, but it mirrors our view.


18 posted on 02/02/2005 11:57:33 PM PST by Razz Barry
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To: bayourod
It's impossible to seal the borders

Anything is possible in my America.

19 posted on 02/03/2005 12:00:00 AM PST by 1_Inch_Group
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To: DoughtyOne

BTTT


20 posted on 02/03/2005 12:00:24 AM PST by 1_Inch_Group
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To: DoughtyOne
"Do you allow them to swamp your communities, health care and education resources? Do you allow them to soak up tens of billions of dollars of funding that citizens have every right to expect to be spent on their local community and state needs?"

Productive employees don't soak up funds, they are the engine that drives the businesses that pay the taxes that provide the schools, roads, museums, stadiums, etc...

The vast majority of taxes are paid by the very wealthy and businesses. The average working family doesn't pay anywhere near the amount in taxes as benefits they receive. How much do the schools in California spend per child? How many families with two or three children in school pay that amount in school taxes?

We have no choice but to import laborers. Our aging population is almost at zero population growth now. As long as the economy is doing great why do you begrudge immigrant laborers? Why risk a major recession by closing businesses or forcing them to relocate over seas.

There are plenty of jobs for anyone who wants one to get one. And wages for white collar jobs or skilled licensed jobs are not brought down by wages of garbage collectors or gardners.

21 posted on 02/03/2005 12:00:25 AM PST by bayourod (Unless we get over 40% of the Hispanic vote in 2008, President Hillary will take all your guns away.)
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To: FITZ

While I'm not against that, I do believe it avoids a real problem that is left, even if Mexico does pay billions.

I do not believe we should be flooding this nation with millions of foreign nationals per year, that cannot read, write or speak English. They congregate in regions and do not disburse evenly. This creates enclaves that more often than not instil decay, that is very hard to overcome.

I don't really care what the language they do speak is, or where they come from. The flooding of our nation is not advisable.

We have a right to our culture. We do not need to be celebrating Cinco de Mayo, the Armenian Genocide or the special events and commemorations of any other nation. This is the United States of America. I don't even celebrate England's or Irelands holidays. St. Patrick's day means nothing to me. All the best to my Irish compatriots, but if you want to celebrate the customs and holidays of your former nation that much, go there. Celebrate your a-- off!


22 posted on 02/03/2005 12:04:29 AM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: Razz Barry

You're free to do with it as you please. It's public domain.


23 posted on 02/03/2005 12:05:46 AM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: 1_Inch_Group

Thank you.


24 posted on 02/03/2005 12:06:02 AM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: DoughtyOne
"The beauty of the guestworker program is that it will dump one to two million more each year into this nation on top of the illegal immigration already taking place. "

No, the ones that are illegally here now will want to become legal by applyimng for guest worker status. Employers will want their employees who are now illegal to became legal by applying for guest worker permits.

How on Earth does it benefit you to close down American businesses? It might make you feel good but it isn't going to get you a job. It will just throw a lot of other people out of work .

A rising tide lifts all boats. Well a recession hurts all people. If you can't find a job now you aren't going to have any better luck during a recession.

25 posted on 02/03/2005 12:09:43 AM PST by bayourod (Unless we get over 40% of the Hispanic vote in 2008, President Hillary will take all your guns away.)
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To: DoughtyOne

Thank you.


26 posted on 02/03/2005 12:10:38 AM PST by Razz Barry
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To: bayourod

BS. Where does Bush address the American taxpayers who are paying thru the teeth to subsidize your workers, Rod? What about us? Are we to continue to fork out $1000 per household per year so you can pocket the difference?

I refuse to.

Where's that "Compassionate Conservatism" towards the taxpayers who have to deal with all the problems these third worlders dump on us?


27 posted on 02/03/2005 12:11:51 AM PST by ETERNAL WARMING (We have the best politicians corporate money can buy)
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To: 1_Inch_Group; 2sheep; 2Trievers; 3AngelaD; 4.1O dana super trac pak; 4Freedom; 4ourprogeny; ...

ping


28 posted on 02/03/2005 12:12:29 AM PST by gubamyster
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To: All

Free Republic Opinion Poll: What is your opinion regarding immigration:

Composite Opinion
Illegal immigration is the problem. 33.8% 1,011
Seal and militarize borders. 33.0% 988
Borders should be closed. 15.7% 469
Immigration should be reduced. 10.1% 301
Borders should be open. 4.0% 121
Immigration is not a big issue. 3.4% 102
100.0% 2,992
Member Opinion
Illegal immigration is the problem. 33.8% 997
Seal and militarize borders. 32.9% 972
Borders should be closed. 15.7% 463
Immigration should be reduced. 10.1% 298
Borders should be open. 4.0% 119
Immigration is not a big issue. 3.4% 101
99.9% 2,950
Non-Member Opinion
Seal and militarize borders. 38.1% 16
Illegal immigration is the problem. 33.3% 14
Borders should be closed. 14.3% 6
Immigration should be reduced. 7.1% 3
Borders should be open. 4.8% 2
Immigration is not a big issue. 2.4% 1
100.0% 42

29 posted on 02/03/2005 12:12:34 AM PST by k2blader (It is neither compassionate nor conservative to support the expansion of socialism.)
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To: bayourod

Our wages are brought down when the property and other local taxes goes sky high to pay for the illegals someone else has brought in to be their cheap labor. When you hire a cheap live-in nanny to make your beds for you --- it does me no benefit at all --- I don't really care if your beds are made or not and if your floors need cleaning --- clean them yourself. But if you aren't paying her/his medical bills and the tuition for their kids ---- your illegals certainly are costing me plenty.


30 posted on 02/03/2005 12:18:37 AM PST by FITZ
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To: DoughtyOne

I was kind of joking --- because there is no way in Hell that Mexico would ever pay us a dime to provide for their citizens they intend to dump on us.

With Mexicans it's "Ask not what your country can do for you but ask rather what the Americans' country can do for you."


31 posted on 02/03/2005 12:21:30 AM PST by FITZ
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To: bayourod

<>The engines that drive businesses are the customers, NOT THE EMPLOYEES.

Minimum wage jobs were supposed to be entry level, not for adults. High school kids filled most of them. College kids filled others. They didn't have a family of four to support. These jobs were never intended to support families. We didn't have to dedicate tens of billions of dollars nationally to subsidize their lives so they could hold them.

The illegal immigrant subverted this situation. Now all of a sudden you have dad making $6.50 an hour trying to house, feed, clothe, keep healthy and educate his children.

What if the majority of taxes are paid by the very wealthy and businesses? Who pays the fees for the goods and services businesses provide? What happens when a business pays a higher rate of taxes? Who pays when that business hires minimum wage heads of households who can't afford to provide for their families? Businesses? Surely you know better than this.

If we want more workers, then we can come up with policies that encourages our own citizens to have more children. I note you don't advocate that.

Let me see, it's okay if we mastermind slums in vast regions of our nation, but God forbid we take a chance on a downturn in our economy. Bub, what is a downturn in the economy if not a vast slum that was artificually created by flawed policies.

The schools in California spend about $8k to educate a child on average. Of course that's not generally U.S. Citizen children. A good many public schools have been abandoned, so that parents could have their children educated in English full-time. I know, I went through that problem with my kids.

What you advocate is a complete surrender of our nation to foreign nationals. Sorry, I'm not buying it. You prefer to have Mexican citizens pouring into our nation, above all other nationalities.

You can't advocate two million poor come here from every nation. That would bring about 300 million per year here. And if we can't do it for everyone, then we shouldn't do it for anyone.


32 posted on 02/03/2005 12:28:35 AM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: DoughtyOne
"The flooding of our nation is not advisable. "

The total population of the U.S. only rose 1% last year including all immigrants, legal and illegal.

We need immigrant laborers to replace our retiring population. Already there are labor shortages in some areas.

Texas is 40% Hispanic and was just rated the best state for businesses to open or relocate to, in part because of our labor force.

We have excellent schools, hospitals, roads, law enforcement, neighborhood rehabilitations, sports stadiums, museums etc.. and a $6.5 Billion state budget surplus.

It's really not Bush's problem that California would rather spend $3 Billion on embryonic stem cell research than eliminating gangs and cleaning up neighborhoods.

Employees are assets that attract businesses that pay taxes that fund services and infrastructure. If the world hands you lemons laborers, make lemonade businesses.

33 posted on 02/03/2005 12:30:35 AM PST by bayourod (Unless we get over 40% of the Hispanic vote in 2008, President Hillary will take all your guns away.)
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To: bayourod

The ones that are here illegaly now are being given worker permits as fast as is humanly possible. The only way the vast number of illegals can be hidden, is to change their status as fast as possible.

Unlike you, I don't support illegal activity. I do not support workers committing fraud. I do not sanction businesses donig the same. As far as I am concerned, you can put the owners in prison and give their businesses to someone that will uphold the laws of our nation.

The only rising tide in our nation today, is the rising cost of footing the bills for freeloaders. The only other thing rising nearly as fast, is the level of stupidity that seeks to run fifth column efforts to subvert our naitons laws in order to benefit foreign nationals over the citizens of the United States.


34 posted on 02/03/2005 12:35:52 AM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: DoughtyOne

DENVER — Fed up with illegal immigration and eager to send a message to federal lawmakers, hundreds of volunteers from across the nation will spend the month of April patrolling the Arizona-Mexico border, helping to apprehend migrants coming into the U.S.

"This is a direct challenge to President Bush," said Chris Simcox, an organizer of what's being called the Minuteman Project. "You have continued to ignore this problem. Our state officials, senators and congressmen will do nothing. So this is a last-ditch effort to roll up our sleeves and do it ourselves."

Arizona is the nation's busiest gateway for illegal immigrants, with about 580,000 arrests last year — more than in California, Texas and New Mexico combined. Most of the activity occurs in the southeast part of the state near Tucson. Last year, Arizona received $10 million in federal aid and hundreds of additional border and customs agents. Many immigrants now choose to go through New Mexico, but traffic in Arizona remains high.

Simcox — the founder of Civil Homeland Defense, which runs its own border patrols — said 416 people from 41 states had volunteered to take up positions between the Arizona towns of Naco and Douglas and around Coronado National Forest. A rally is planned for April 1, when organizers expect 2,000 people to park their cars along the border, forming a gantlet to repel illegals.

"We have a no-contact policy. We are acting only as eyes and ears," said Simcox, who also runs the Tombstone Tumbleweed, a weekly newspaper in Tumbleweed, Ariz. "We work within the law. We spot and find illegal immigrants and report them to the Border Patrol."

The Minuteman Project was launched in October by James Gilchrist, a retired accountant from Aliso Viejo, Calif.

"We want to bring national awareness to the illegal alien crisis," he said. "For years, people have been cringing in the corner like mice, afraid to speak out because of political correctness. I think a lot of Americans feel they have been muzzled, and I have tapped into that."

Gilchrist said he'd been overwhelmed by the response to his project in Arizona but wanted to be sure those taking part were not troublemakers.

"We are worried about being framed down there, so we want to vet everyone who is coming," he said. "If anyone causes trouble, they will be asked to leave."

Federal agents and local officials also have expressed concern.

"We worry about any person or private group that takes the immigration laws into their own hands," said Andy Adame, a spokesman for the Border Patrol's Tucson sector. "This is a violent area. We deal with drug smugglers every day. We don't want to say we don't want the public's help; we just don't want it in this format."

Adame said it was fine for civilians to report illegal immigrants, but detaining them would raise legal problems.

"These people need to be aware that we will forward any violations of the law to local prosecutors," he said.

Douglas Mayor Ray Borane has called the citizens' border effort racist. "You are going to get every misfit, everyone with a warrant out for their arrest, everyone who needs new scenery or climate out here," he said. "If they come into this community, it could lead to an international incident."

Douglas, an 86% Latino town of about 14,000, sits across from the Mexican city of Agua Prieta. Mexicans routinely shop in Douglas, and the lives of the two communities often intersect. Americans have family on the Mexican side, and vice versa. Douglas officials deal with their Mexican counterparts on a variety of issues, including business, schools and law enforcement.

But Borane believes the illegal migration is out of control and that the presence of vigilante groups demonstrates how bad things have become.

"As long as the government doesn't address it, it will lend itself to these sorts of things," he said.

"The solution is political and diplomatic. I don't know what it is, but they can't just let it fester down here."


35 posted on 02/03/2005 12:40:32 AM PST by ETERNAL WARMING (We have the best politicians corporate money can buy)
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To: bayourod
First of all nobody knows exactly how many illegals are coming across the border, so your attempt to categorize that factually is a washout.

You know as well as I do that we have a 5% unemployment situation.  You also know, or should if you know much at all, that we have people being paid under HHS for make work jobs.  They work part time for minimum wage and are considered employed.  Both these gorups could supply workers today.

Great, when Texas gets to 100% hispanic, you can take a vactaion for fronting for criminality.

California's problems go way beyond the illegal immigrant.  Once again you don't know sheist from shinola.  I will tell you that I and every other U.S. citizen is helping to fund the education for illegal immigrants while other programs go wanting.  Texas isn't free from it's own share of problems, so dream on.

I'm not entirely sure California has spent a dime on that program yet, so I guess that lets the air out of those tires.

Employees are an expense.  They are not the driving force of business, although they are a necessary ingredient.

If you think employees are only considered assetts, you haven't been in the workforce very long.
36 posted on 02/03/2005 12:42:53 AM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: ETERNAL WARMING

I believe it was this guy, but someone was on the John and Ken show the night before last. His plans have already had an impact on the border region. It's an interesting dynamic, and a program I wish I could participate in.


37 posted on 02/03/2005 12:46:24 AM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: bayourod
Already there are labor shortages in some areas.

Name the areas.

The flood of illegals has created a downward pressure upon wages in America. There are PLENTY of people to do the work in America but they won't do the work for impossibly low wages.

This is about employers refusing to pay enough money to attract good help.

Illegal immigration is a cancer. It rewards breaking the law. It puts downward pressure on wages. It undermines sovereignty of the nation. It undermines all efforts to secure ourselves from terrorists. It bankrupts our hospitals, our schools and our social services.

George Bush firmly believes poor people have a right to break the law to seek a better life. This is the rationale of a thief.

I take what I need, regardless of the law, because I need it.

There are hundreds of millions of poor people on this planet. Most are poorer than those in Mexico. Why don't we start bringing those unfortunates in too? According to George W. Bush's rationale, we ought to provide them with transportation to get here. After all, all they want is a better life and we, the American people, OWE IT TO THEM.

I say the next one million illegal immigrants should squat on property adjacent to Bush's Crawford, Texas ranch.

38 posted on 02/03/2005 12:48:07 AM PST by NoControllingLegalAuthority
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To: DoughtyOne

Good post D1.

I share almost all of the thoughts you expressed.


39 posted on 02/03/2005 12:49:28 AM PST by calcowgirl
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To: calcowgirl

Thank you. I appreciate it.


40 posted on 02/03/2005 12:53:47 AM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority

Nice points.


41 posted on 02/03/2005 12:54:02 AM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: DoughtyOne
"Minimum wage jobs were supposed to be entry level, not for adults."

I don't know where you got that. The arguments behind them were how much it cost to support a family. (not necessarily have two cars, a TV, air conditioner, computer, private schools, vacations, their own house,..) But regardless, any adult who can't keep a job paying more than $6.50 must be doing an entry level job? A person shouldn't expect to work as a grocery store checher for his entire life and be able to afford to buy a mansion in a gated community and drive Corvettes.

"If we want more workers, then we can come up with policies that encourages our own citizens to have more children. "

How does that help you? Same number of school children, same number of laborers "driving down wages", going to hospitals... The only difference I can see is that one baby may be named John and the other Juan.

" it's okay if we mastermind slums in vast regions of our nation"

That's a California problem because of your high real estate costs. Other states subsidize clean modest housing and enforce sanitation laws and criminal laws. Don't blame Bush for California's mismanagement.

"You can't advocate two million poor come here from every nation. That would bring about 300 million per year here."

Under a guest worker plan American employers bring in only the number that they need.

By the way. Since state and local law enforcement agencies can enforce immigration laws, and the CBP will train them for free, why do you ONLY blame President Bush for your problems? Why don't you blame your local mayor for not busting employers of illegals?

People who want to blame Bush for all of their local problems instead of the local politicians who could solve them, are just looking for reasons to blame Bush.

42 posted on 02/03/2005 12:58:42 AM PST by bayourod (Unless we get over 40% of the Hispanic vote in 2008, President Hillary will take all your guns away.)
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To: DoughtyOne
This nation will just be torn apart one neighborhood at a time at an even faster rate than it has been, until someone finally turns out the lights.

When Bush was done with his hyperbole on immigration, I cringed and cried out LIAR right in front of my kids. Liar and hypocrite.

Great post. Now bring on the BOT incoming.

43 posted on 02/03/2005 12:59:33 AM PST by Indie (Ignorance of the truth is no excuse for stupidity.)
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To: gubamyster

bttt


44 posted on 02/03/2005 1:04:54 AM PST by lainde
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To: DoughtyOne

VERY eloquent...bravo!


45 posted on 02/03/2005 1:05:49 AM PST by lainde
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To: bayourod

Bayourod, your posts are some of the few I see on the forum, that go from one falsehood or flawed premise to another to another.

That first paragraph was so powerful, I'll just refrain from responding. It would be pointless. It didn't even make sense.

Your question about more children is likewise another waste of time. If you don't know the difference, then you're not qualified to participate in this discussion.

Then you're off to California and saying that it's isn't Bush's fault. Boy if that isn't your mantra. It isn't Bush's fault, and by God it sure as hell isn't tens of millions of illegal allien's fault either. Whose fault is it? Well it must be California's. California now sets national guidelines on immigration, healthcare mandates, education guidelines, and oh yess, that $3 billion dollar gene research program caused it all. LOL.

Let me see, you think ten thousand illegals making minimum wage would be an economic boon for any neighborhood. Okay, we've got that on the record. Only California's high realestate makes it impossible for illegals to house, feed, clothe, provide medical care and educate their children. Hmmm, shere genious.

"Other states subsidize..." Need I respond to this mindset.

Well because the United States Constitution says the President 'SHALL' protect the states from invasion. That's the main reason why I say that you don't respect the U.S. Constitution and the laws of our nation.

Oh now I get it. You think all local politicians are president. Oh okay. Thanks.


46 posted on 02/03/2005 1:22:44 AM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: Indie

I'm not sure it's a good idea to show the kids our displeasure at this. Just make sure that they understand the concepts of God granted rights, the reasons for limited governance, and self-reliance. Teach them that, respect for religion, and the golden rule and they'll grow up to believe what you do no matter what.


47 posted on 02/03/2005 1:27:55 AM PST by DoughtyOne (US socialist liberalism would be dead without the help of politicians who claim to be conservative.)
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To: NoControllingLegalAuthority
"Name the areas."

Texas. Manufacturing sector, health care sector, education, law enforcement and oil patch. The children of immigrants are being educated as fast as we can to go into these professions.

"The flood of illegals has created a downward pressure upon wages in America. "

Which wages? Gardeners? Roofers? Car Washers? Immigrants coming here for minimum wage jobs don't drive down wages of anyone except people in those same minimum wage jobs, not doctors and lawyers.

"Illegal immigration is a cancer."

Meaningless bumper sticker slogan. They come because there is a demand for their labor and they provide essential services. Productive employees are a nation's greatest asset, not a cancer. That's unthinking babble.

"It undermines sovereignty of the nation. It undermines all efforts to secure ourselves from terrorists."

No it doesn't. That Buchanan/Tancredo fundraising nonsense. We've always had a large immigration population and our sovereignty hasn't been threatened by immigrants. Tsake a quick trip to your local veteran's cemetary and look at the names on the headstones and tell them they threatened our sovereignty. Next your going to say it causes global warming or some such nonsense.

"George Bush firmly believes poor people have a right to break the law to seek a better life. This is the rationale of a thief. "

Where have you been the last four years. Bush has proposed a guest worker program that would eliminate illegal labors. He has also increased border security. President Bush is not a thief.

" Bush's rationale, ... they want is a better life and we, the American people, OWE IT TO THEM. "

No, the rationale is that we need them and they need us. It's mutuality. Same theory as the drug trade, but different because these are good intentioned people engaged in beneficial activity.

President Bush is addressing the immigration situation in the most responsible way, just as he has all other issues.

48 posted on 02/03/2005 1:32:02 AM PST by bayourod (Unless we get over 40% of the Hispanic vote in 2008, President Hillary will take all your guns away.)
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To: k2blader
I honestly don't believe the GOP as a whole would be stupid enough to support his proposal. But if they do, they'll lose in more ways than one.

The only opponents the Repubs have are the Dems and they are silent on this issue, or in the very least, agree with it...

A pretty good game Washington is playing...

49 posted on 02/03/2005 1:32:56 AM PST by Iscool
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To: DoughtyOne
"Your question about more children is likewise another waste of time. If you don't know the difference, then you're not qualified to participate in this discussion. "

If it's so obvious, apparent and simple why don't you just verbalize for everyone what the difference is between baby John and baby Juan?

50 posted on 02/03/2005 1:41:45 AM PST by bayourod (Unless we get over 40% of the Hispanic vote in 2008, President Hillary will take all your guns away.)
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