Skip to comments.Immigration Reform - So Few Words, So Much Meaning
Posted on 02/02/2005 11:06:49 PM PST by DoughtyOne
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Illegal immigrants make more than minimum wage because they perform more valuable jobs than taking orders at McDonalds. Laborers start at about $10 an hour here.
And yes, ten thousand employees making minimum wage mean several thousand managers, foremen, accountants, secretaries, salesmen and other support personnel are making far more than minimum wages, and the companies are paying taxes. Then you have the multiplier effect which means grocery stores, gas stations, Kmarts, dry cleaners, plumbers, doctors, car dealers, schools...
10,000 employees would support a town of probably 20,000.
What type occupation do you have that doesn't benefit from economic activity? And why do you want the rest of us to suffer from closing businesses?
Could be that John is the only American in the bunch...Nice try...When nothing else works, try a little racism...
Texas is 40% Hispanic and was just rated the best state for businesses to open or relocate to, in part because of our labor force.
You said it...We all know that...Business loves that cheap labor...But you don't seem to notice that the illegals down in Texas seriously undercut the earning ability of 'legal' citizens of Mexican descent...And flooding the U.S. with all of Mexico's poor will furthur drive wages down...
But I have to wonder, why is it that people like you encourage the population of Mexico to come to the U.S. to take our jobs when you could be doing something IN MEXICO to create work for your citizens...Why not make Mexico a desirable place to live and work???
If you understood it you might.
Slums can be handled locally. The city condemns a slum neighborhood, buys the land, bulldozes it down and then sells it to developers who agree to build low cost housing in exchange for tax abatements, low interest bond financing etc... Then the city uses their bond rating to help lower income people buy the homes. The city has replaced a slum with a new subdivision at very little cost to the taxpayers. Everybody wins, especially the city by increasing its tax base.
But if the citizens of California aren't aware that their local governments can do things to clean up slums that's their loss.
Do you really believe that Hispanics are criminals?
I've owned a number of businesses and employed hundreds of people from janitors to lawyers. I don't know of any employer who won't tell you that the most valuable asset a company can have is a good employee.
Often one company will buy another company for no other reason than to get its employees. Being from California you should be aware of this since it was rampant in silicone valley in the 90s.
What are you talking about? The only worker permits I know of are for medical school graduates and models.
I really wish that you would quit throwing around the "racist" tag on these immigration threads. If you have a good argument, you can make it without accusing people of being racists just because they want our immigration laws enforced, our borders secured, or because they are opposed to a guest worker program.
If you don't make any racist comments no one will think that you are one of the racist.
It is true that there is a fine line between supporting our President in this crucial time (a president who we all love and respect so much) and having the courage to stand up to him when he is obviously imperiling the nation with such an open border policy.
I am trying to understand the Presidents reasoning. Is he possibly thinking that there is no way to stop them from coming so best to have them beholden to Republicans so when they become the majority of voters in several states (and they will eventually), then they will keep the Republican party in power?
I have read (even on this board) the sentiments that what would be so wrong with the USA eventual becoming dominantly Hispanic, perhaps that is our destiny. I guess the question then becomes whether we want to continue to celebrate the 4th of July or would we be content to celebrate Cinco de Maya, because from what I am seeing, most Hispanics are not very interested in assimilating into an American culture and language, but intend on retaining their own.
I guess I have to question a bit of your reasoning on the subject of Mexican immigrants building slums across the nation. That would be a temporary condition...... just like it was when the Scots/Irish immigrants came. First generation there were slums, future generations got an education and worked their way out. So perhaps Bush is reasoning, they will come... so let them work legally so they can rise above the slums one day. But then the same ole question arises...... are we ready to see America become predominantly Hispanic? Perhaps Bush has accepted the inevitable. Perhaps he sees a future when there is little distinction between borders of any country?
Ill probably get flamed for saying this but my thoughts are that George W Bush sees what his father called A New World Order... when his father said in 1991,
Now, we can see a new world coming into view. A world in which there is the very real prospect of a new world order. In the words of Winston Churchill, a "world order" in which "the principles of justice and fair play ... protect the weak against the strong ..." A world where the United Nations, freed from cold war stalemate, is poised to fulfill the historic vision of its founders. To me this is a scary thought!
Applause!!! Well said. If only the President did get this one issue.(sigh)
"It's an interesting dynamic, and a program I wish I could participate in."
Me too, doughty. I can't afford to take the time off, but it's one place I'd like to be. I believe in what they're doing.
The folks at wakeupamericafoundation.com are doing some exciting things. Again, I'm limited because of work and my husbands health or I'd be in there with everything I've got.
But they're planning an Illegal Invasion Summit in Vegas for May, also a March on Washington for later on. All members across the nation will be toting cameras to snap photos of those picking up day laborers and will be exposing them nationally and locally. Plans to turn their licenses and logos into the IRS, etc. We hope to expose them on a local basis as well...pictures of their residences, well out of the problems they impose on the rest of us.
We have to go after the employers or nothing will be done.
Some will be headed to the schools to film the absence of students for Cinco de Mayo Day. If Americans see how many students they're forced to pay for, they'll get an idea how bad the situation really is.
In the words of President Bush himself,
"This is not a question of authority.
It is a question of will."
Very well said. Thanks for the effort. I hope that "Dubya"'s not going to sell us out south of border but it doesn't look good.
placemark for later reading
Sounds like a great idea to me but then you get the same (supposedly) Christian crowd (with words and deeds that sound more like a Pharisee) complaining that our jobs are being moved offshore.
The sad truth is that while illegal immigrants do use up some of our federal resources, many Americans are much more the drain on these resources and in far greater scope than the illegal immigrant could ever be.
Excellent points, especially this one! And the president want more people like this who identify themselves to our government so that they may become guest workers.
But I guess it's only "love your neighbor" only so long as he has the same pigmented skin as you do and he truly lives next door.
Anyone notice that the entire Congress, except Tancredo, gave the President a standing ovation on the guest worker program? We are truly headed there.
Oh good, another race baiter. You and the fraud are going to get along great. Blackbird.
There's no other way to put it! The president is proposing that we find out who the immigrants are, collect information on them, and then make allow them to become guest workers if they choose...if they choose not to, then presumably we deport them. Many of you FReepers on this very thread complain that immigrants (not just the illegal ones) drive down our wages and take our jobs but then you simultaneously bitch when business OWNERS take their capital and move it into another country, creating jobs there. It appears on the surface that the outcry against this is motivated by selfishness, anger, and a whole lot of xenophobia - none of which are feelings that a Christian in a state of grace should have. Yet, many of you who express these things are the most vocal about your Christianity. My suggestion is that you should pray more for the intangible things such as wisdom and less for the tangible things (emphasis should be placed on giving thanks to Him for what you do have too).
I suppose now that I'll be accused of faith baiting next?!
I believe that there is plenty of blame to go around though I think President Bush sets the tone on this subject but at least he never said the things that the present Governor of Arkansas said.
If a Zell Miller type of Democrat would run for governor of Arkansas against the Huckelee, I believe he'd win and deservedly so.
BTW, Bayourod. Any input on what Huckleberry said about this bill to cut off state aid to illegals?
I believe it is time that Americans call the President on this despicable slander against the character and integrity of the American people. I am really tired of hearing him accuse us of lacking sufficient integrity and self-respect to work to support ourselves and our families. Why do we allow him to get away with these outrageous statements without paying a political price? If he really feels this way about American citizens then he can't beleive we deserve or are capable of self-government. Perhaps he should go to Mexico and enter politics there since he thinks so highly of the Mexicans' work ethic! With this attitude he really should resign the Presidency and let someone else who really believes in the American people and our project of self-government be our leader in these dangerous times. If I could speak directly to President Bush about his comment and his entire immigration policy this is what I would say.
There you go again. Mr. President, denigrating all the middle and working class citizens of your own country who are unfortunate enough to have to compete with millions of illegal workers that you are enabling to come here against our wishes and in violation of our democratically enacted laws. Exactly which Americans are you referring to as too lazy and too deficient in moral character to take a job to feed their family? Stop hiding behind the broad accusation of jobs "Americans" won't do. Who are these Americans who won't work? These are the same people you are sending to die in Iraq to win "democracy" for Iraquis for heaven's sake. If you feel this way about your own fellow citizens then how in the world do think we are capable of self-government? I guess you don't and that is why you believe you have the right to ignore what the majority of Americans have repeatedly expressed as their demands on this issue for decades -- enforce our immigration laws! If the Iraquis deserve democracy why don't we?
And while we are talking about "jobs American's won't do" how about the job you promised us you would do? How about doing your job of enforcing our immigration laws? By your refusal to obey your oath of office to faithfully execute the laws you are putting this country and every individual citizen at tremendous risk of terrorist attack as well as undercutting the ability of millions of Americans to earn a living and become self-reliant. We have already seen the results. Our prisons are full of illegal immigrants who have victimized American citizens and we are finding it harder and harder to achieve and sustain a middle class lifestyle because of the competition of illegal third world labor.
What do you say, Mr. President, to the families of the people killed by the Washington DC sniper? This man was an illegal immigrant who was caught by federal officials before his killing spree but who was released because of your administration's policy of non-enforcement of our immigration laws. You and your family have secret service protection, payed for by us lazy taxpayers, but the rest of us peasants have to fend for ourselves. The audacity of demanding that we put up with the rising crime rate from illegal immigrants and the risk of terrorism while you and the other political elites surround yourselves with layers of protection at our expese and all the while repeatedly accusing us of being too lazy and deficient in moral character to work is astounding.
Yes and they all learned English and did not expect companies and schools to teach Spanish to accommodate them the Illegals are not here to become citizens such as those who came before them they come here to get as much as they can to support their families in Mexico.
Do you really believe that someone who breaks are laws to get here is not?
it is primarily one nation that is flooding ours with it's citizens
and that nation is wholly owned by a corrupt government. Proud to be a xenophobe and bigot by opposing Mexicorruption's "Mexican diaspora" (nation beyond borders) and their sponge mob.
Thanks for your thoughts, Doughty.
I agree with you all the way.
APD, your analysis is the only thing which really makes sense. I can see no other explanation.
Or we could stop killing our children.
Besides insulting American workers, no one is making the connection as to how much this continued invasion will totally overwhelm all the cherished institutions that Pres. Bush is attempting to preserve - Social Security, Health Care and Education. Connect the dots. It's compassion run a muck.
Where does the money come from?
The fraud will bankrupt the country and nothing mentioned in SOTU speech cut back any of the government's waste at all. The is no fiscal concervatism here at all, just the opposite. Did Pres. Bush catch this disease from Clinton?
Hummm.......now there's an original idea!
I wonder if that would work?
Mine [airline], of which several departments have already been outsourced inside the US to minimum wage workers, the Spanish International desk has been outsourced to an office IN Mexico [putting legal Spanish speaking hispanics out of work ironically enough], and now another department is undergoing a "new home-based worker" program that is hiring people off the street with no money and no benefits..the beginning of the end for the rest of us.
[I guess now that the manufacturing is gone, customer service is the next target.] "JobsAmericansWon'tDoIsALIE!" [Jobs that increase the bottom line is what it is all about. Prices and the cost of living keep going up, and wages go down. Who wins? The bottom line..except it isn't OUR bottom line. Our balance sheets go further into the red as wages get cut and the cost of living goes up.]
Follow the money for the reason why this agenda is being pushed so hard. It isn't about "jobsamericanswontdo" or "doingwhatisright" or any of the other bleeding heart phrases.
They provide essential services.
They "provide" nothing, and take away from you and me. I could write a book on this; in fact, it has been done.
Bush has proposed a guest worker program that would eliminate illegal labors.
I love your logic. I could declare all felons in prisons as "guest citizens" and set them free. What would change besides the nomenclature? Logic of a fool. [Oh yes, if Buchanan supports it, then it is automatically bad out of hand?]
we need them and they need us..
You got half of it right.
If I went back and checked your posts, how many bleeding heart phrases might I find? Why, I bet if I looked hard enough in this post alone (the one that I'm relying to), I could find some here as well...
Would you look at that, I am correct!
Never mind that you call anyone who wants the illegal alien problem solved in a different manner than you a racist.
That's your defense mechanism, we all know it.
Stop the BS bayourod.
No one here thinks all Hispanics are criminals and you know it.
But since you want to bring crime and race to the front of the pack, lets take a look at it.
Whites are the majority of Americans, yet whites commit the least amount of crime.
Blacks and Hispanics are the two largest minorities, yet, together they commit approximately 90% of the crime in this country.
Why is that bayourod?
Now lets look at illegal immigration.
Mexicans are approximately 95% of the illegal population and other Hispanics boost that number to approximately 99%. That leaves 1% for the rest of the world.
Of course that one is easy to figure out, Mexico is right next door.
Now, very few people care about the race of the illegal alien; it's not about race, it's about crime and the cost of that criminal activity.
Now if you wish to keep bring race into the argument fine, I'll keep pointing out that Hispanics commit more crime then whites, a fact you argue with.
Lets look at the Texas top ten most wanted; 9 Hispanics and a Black; Very telling.
LAPDs top ten is the same. New Yorks top 25 is split about 50/50 Black and Hispanic.
This is the funniest argument in support of illegal immigration you've made yet, Bay. Thanks for the chuckle.
This is the funniest argument in support of illegal immigration you've made yet, Bay. Thanks for the chuckle.>>>>>>>
You must have missed this one.......'rods' reason Toyota built in Tijuana rather than CA......
"That plant would have paid a lot of taxes if Bush's guest worker program had been operative and they could have legally hired 700 laborers currently living and working in California illegally."
'rod' just loves all that CHEEEP labor building all those CHEEEP houses in his 3 MILLION dollar neighborhood, that he says he posting from.........:o)
WOW! What a great post! Thank you!
Toyota must've chose TJ because of Mexico's stringent anti-trust laws.
Otherwise Ford might have swept in to snap up all those valuable labor resources.
An outstanding post !
Yeah, TJ such nice community, their reporting *only* MORE than 30 murders since the new year (on Jan 29th).
Sad to hear 'rod' reporting there's not 700 *legal* workers to be found in S. CA anymore.
Good observation. I was a general contractor (a partner in a medium size 2/4 mil annual billings)
The wages are less now than they were 20 years ago, While some may cheer that, to me as a builder it represents a smaller customer base.
I've got a great name for Bush's "guest worker" program - "No American Worker Left Employed" Act. Think I ought to send my idea to the White House? :)
You give Bush more credit than I do. It is my opinion that CFR is the reason that this illegal immigration was not brought up during the campaign. Even on FR we were basicallly warned not to speak of it.
Being that I am from Texas, I can see first hand that California is NOT the only place that panders to illegals. In Houston 80% of all the children in the public school system are on free lunches or subsidized lunches. Down here in the valley where the unemployment rate is in the double digits, all the children get free lunches (a subsidy from the American taxpayer). Another subsidy that you people of California and the rest of the US is paying is our health care. The American taxpayer pays 75% to 80% of all the health care in the valley of south Texas.
"I am very unhappy that I have to address this issue. I shouldn't have to at all, but this issue is important enough that I am going to address it continuously until the issue is resolved, the policies I cannot endorse are changed to protect this nation. That should be our overriding concern here. It is mine."
You have expressed the thoughts of most of us. Thanks.