Abraham Lincoln as Statesman

American History ^ | April 2005 | Dinesh D'Souza

[Rifleman]

Only two countries in the Western Hemisphere resorted to civil war to end slavery, Haiti and the United States of America. Lincoln's flawed statesmanship ("Gentlemen, what then of my tariff?") and that of various hotheads on both sides destroyed the Republic and impoverished half the nation for decades.

Without Lincoln, secession might not have happened and could quite possibly been reversed if it did. Slavery would have been ended within a generation or so without the deep and lasting hatreds that the War Between the States engendered.

Our ancestors should have done better.

[Non-Sequitur]

Only two countries in the Western Hemisphere resorted to civil war to end slavery, Haiti and the United States of America.

Wouldn't it be more accurate to state that only two countries resorted to civil war to protect slavery? At least on the part of the southern states?

Without Lincoln, secession might not have happened and could quite possibly been reversed if it did.

How do you think it could have been reversed?

Slavery would have been ended within a generation or so without the deep and lasting hatreds that the War Between the States engendered.

What do you base that on?

[Non-Sequitur]

Freepers for a recommendation on the definitive pro-Lincoln book and the definitive anti-Lincoln book.

There are any number of good, solid Lincoln biographies out there. Davd Herbert Donald did one a couple of years ago, and did a second book which viewed Lincoln through the eyes of his supporters. Those are good places to start. But to know the man, read his writings. There are a couple of collections of his speeches and letters available?

The definitive one-sided, rabidly anti-Lincoln book? No question about it. "The Real Lincoln" by Tommy DiLorenzo.

[Nevadan]

“Without Lincoln, secession might not have happened and could quite possibly been reversed if it did.” Rifleman

What unconstitutional act did Lincoln commit that “forced” South Carolina to secede? Being legally elected President?? Other states followed South Carolina’s example before Lincoln was even inaugurated.

It’s true that Virginia and some others voted for secession after Lincoln called up volunteers to enforce the legal sovereignty of the United States over its own territory. But was that “unconstitutional” for Lincoln to act in that manner? I don’t think so.

It’s also true that he acted as he did to put down a direct threat to the authority and sovereignty of the United States by what he believed was the illegal act of secession. At that point, did he act outside the bounds of the Constitution? Come on, put yourself in his shoes. Wasn’t the South threatening the sovereignty of the United States, and, therefore the national existence of the United States? I don’t mean that the South was a threat to the U.S. by means of “invasion”, but it sure as h-ll was a threat by means of an “idea’ – that of “secession”.

A nation’s government, any national leader with a backbone at all, is going to oppose its own destruction. Secession, as practiced by the South, was a death knell to our national existence if allowed to stand. The South’s legal/moral grounds for secession and its method of invoking secession were, in my opinion, unfounded and illegal. Secession occurred even before Lincoln was inaugurated. Further secession occurred when Lincoln acted as any constitutionally elected President should have.

Your contention that “Without Lincoln, secession might not have happened” is both unfair and misapplied. You are blaming Lincoln for secession by being constitutionally elected. That’s like blaming a rape victim for being raped – “if she had not existed, the rape would not have happened”. I think it would be more accurate to state that “without slavery, secession might not have happened”

[stand watie]

lincoln, the TYRANT & WAR CRIMINAL, was nothing more or less than a cheap,scheming shyster lawyer & POLITICIAN, who was of about the same moral sort as wee willie klintoon.

EITHER would DO/SAY anything to get $$$$$$$$$ & POWER! ANYTHING!

free dixie,sw

[Monterrosa-24]

"Uh-huh...that may wash for a former "resident of El Salvador," but doesn't quite cut the mustard for the vast majority of Americans who know the real history of our country, as opposed to the fairy tales you seem to have learned...."

On FR there is no vast majority of Americans who are Lincoln lovers. Just look over the posters on this thread.

As for my opinions only being worthy of a "banana republic" I'll quote the former Prez of Honduras, Rafael Callejas who said, "We don't mind being called a Banana Republic" because we grow the best bananas in the world. But I lived in El Salvador which does not export bananas and does not fit the wider definition of a Banana Republic either.

When Lincolnesque techniques ram faggot liberation education into every school followed by animal rights education,and the new Omnibus Afirmative Action, even you Yankee zip wads will miss the CSA.

[Non-Sequitur]

Lincoln was the great destroyer.

In what way?

[Non-Sequitur]

When Lincolnesque techniques ram faggot liberation education into every school followed by animal rights education,and the new Omnibus Afirmative Action, even you Yankee zip wads will miss the CSA.

Forget my reply 48. You've shown your true colors, and nothing would be gained by trying to debate you.

[stand watie]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stand watie]

and your proof for this ignorant unionist bilge is????

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

the lincoln memorial moves me too, every time i pass it.

to NAUSEA!

i call it "America's memorial to the tyrant & WAR CRIMINAL".

the memorial should be disassembled & transported to the Chesapeake Bay & used for an artificial reef. at least the fish would benefit.

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

are you REALLY that DUMB??? or are you just a troll???

slavery was DYING an un-lamented natural death by 1860, due to changes in agriculture.

slavery would have ended, absent the WBTS, within a generation & perhaps within 3-5 years.

considering that the WBTS cost a MILLION LIVES, that seems a REALLY high price to hasten slavery's natural end, especially given that MANY THOUSANDS of the civilian victims of the union army were slaves.

free dixie,sw

[Monterrosa-24]

Stand, remember ole Jube Early's words "What a gentle institution slavery must have been to have so well prepared the Negro for the ballot box" ? It is strange that Yankees call us racists but forcefully installing two Black US Senators to represent Mississippi and seating Blacks in administrative positions all over the South during Reconstruction is supposed to be Enlightened in Yankee eyes.

It is easy for Southerners to see destruction as the hallmark of Lincoln. When its your down that is turned into a smoking gutted "chimneyville" it is easy. But Yankees can't imagine having their houses burned, their libraries burned, their colleges burned,..and then the Yanks wonder why we aren't grateful to Mr. Lincoln.

[maplegrover]

"lincoln, the TYRANT & WAR CRIMINAL, was nothing more or less than a cheap,scheming shyster lawyer & POLITICIAN, who was of about the same moral sort as wee willie klintoon.
EITHER would DO/SAY anything to get $$$$$$$$$ & POWER! ANYTHING!"

I am at a loss as to how to even begin to respond to the above statement by stand watie. Please explain what unconstitutional act Lincoln committed to "force" South Carolina to secede. What defense can you give to demonstrate that secession would not be a threat to the national existence of the United States?

I'm certainly not saying that Lincoln had no ambition or political savvy, but the charges you (and certain anti-Lincoln writers) make against him indicates to me a lack of historical perspective and understanding on your part.

Didn't you know that Lincoln wanted the southern states to be allowed back into the Union as soon as possible - without penalties (loss of citizenship or voting rights, etc.) imposed on former Confederate soldiers or even their political leaders? He did not want to punish the South economically or politically in the postwar period. I really believe that if Lincoln had lived through his second term that reconstruction would not have been the horrible experience that it turned out to be under Grant.

John Wilkes Booth's bullet did more to destroy political, economic and racial harmony North and South than anything Lincoln did.

Believe me when I say that I can empathize with what the South endured during and after the Civil War. I even empathize with their fear of too much federal intrusion into the rights of the states. The courage and fortitude of the Confederate soldiers and their military leaders fill me with awe and admiration in what they were willing to endure and sacrifice for what they believed in - but, I do not see Lincoln as the monster that many are trying to portray him.

You must remember that in Lincoln's mind, secession meant the ultimate destruction of us as a nation. He believed it had to be stopped in its tracks. Any compromise with it would have implied endorsement of the principle of secession. That, he couldn't and wouldn't do. Secession took place even before he took office. He is not to blame for that. I do not even blame him for the harsh realities of war that occurred during the war. It was hard, cruel, terrible warfare that I still have difficulty comprehending that it ever happened in these United States. I believe the South must share some of the responsibility for the war's occurrence. They gave up on compromise and the rule of constitutional law and took it into their own hands with secession.

I say, "Thank God" he was President at the time. Whatever you can say, he never wavered from his goal of restoring the Union. If he hadn't, I think we would be regretting it today.

[stand watie]

TRUE!

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

i'd guess we have nothing to talk about as i regard lincoln as the DESTROYER & nothing more or less than a cheap,scheming politician.

it has been my experience that victims of the "publick screwl sistim" adore lincoln, as they are drinkers of the damnyankee kool-aid & will neither listen nor read the TRUTH about damnyankeeland's clay-footed,secular saint.

free dixie,sw

[Ditto]

In 1862 several tribes of Native Americans revolted against the cruel policies of the United States government.....

He offered a blood offering to the voters of Minnesota. To appease them he selected 39 Indians to be executed. Lincoln carried Minnesota the next election.

Get off the Lost Cause propaganda. Whatever the Indians cause was, the fact is they went on a rampage and their was no militia there to protect the white settlers. It began when a drunk Indian killed an entire family. Hundreds of white settlers, men, women and children were massacred. After the Army arrived and restored order and conducted trials with guilty verdicts for hundreds of Indians, Lincoln reviewed each conviction and only allowed those who it could be shown had murdered women and children to be hung. If he was an Indian hating SOB like the neo-Confederate lunatics say, he would have had them all hung and got even more votes in Minnesota.

In that day and age, that was a real act of compassion, so quit playing the part of the paragon of morals when damning Lincoln unless you want to defend the treatment of the Cherokee, Crow and Seminoles at the hands of the southern states who actually defied a direct order of the Supreme Court to create the Trail of Tears.

They were brutal times in all areas.

[stand watie]

don't you wish what you wrote was TRUTHFUL???

alas, for you it is another in a long string of damnyankee, self-serving, arrogant LIES!

don't you get tired of smart freepers laughing AT you???

the MURDER of the 39 Indians was nothing more or less than a WAR CRIME against INNOCENT Indians.

there is NO evidence that those particuliar persons were even involved in the alleged massassacre. the damnyankees decided to hang SOMEBODY;they cared not who, as lond as they were "redskin savages".

it was MOB MISrule, at its worst.

free dixie,sw

[KC_Conspirator]

Lincoln was a giant of a man.