Posted on 02/08/2005 5:34:03 AM PST by SJackson
The team of Djerejian, Baker, Burns and Olson is top flight. Anyone want to bet that the "paper" wasn't given to Sharon for his comments/additions prior to its circulation?
James "*uck American Jews" Baker, partner in the firm defending the Saudis from the those nasty American 9/11 victims. Quite a confidence builder.
"Anyone want to bet that the "paper" wasn't given to Sharon for his comments/additions prior to its circulation?"
Is this an allusion to the July 2000 Camp David summit which in the new book, "The Truth About Camp David," author Clayton Swisher makes the claim that Clinton ordered (during his absence to attend a fund raiser) that Dennis Ross take the draft over to Ehud Barak to give him a "sneak preview," and when changes were demanded by Barak, Ross made them, thereby undermining on the part of the Palestinians' confidence that the U.S. could be a fair broker and draftor? That it was these things that Swisher lists, and not that there wasn't a "peace partner," that caused the summit to fail? Has this allegation been confirmed elsewhere, and was it relevant?
Shoot, if James Baker is involved then a major screw-over for Israel is planned.
If the US, Egypt, Canada and the World Bank are going to sit down to work out Israel's future, the US views might as well be represented by someone on the Saudi payroll.
Israel will not be a Czecheslovakia. It will be a Finland, and if necessary, a Samson...
I think what's going on here is that Condoleezza Rice is trying to establish for herself a running start as Secretary of State.As her predecessors did before her, she will find out that the Palestinians, along with the representatives of most other countries of that region, are duplicitious, liars and that their over-riding agenda is to destroy Israel, if not on the battlefield, which fortunately they cannot do, then at the "peace table."
Rice will discover before long that she is embarking on a dangerous and harmful mission, which also poses much risk for the US. This is basically a charade, Like Clinton's Wye Conference, and the true character of these people will emerge sooner rather than later.
The scariest part of this whole deal is the re-emergence of James Baker as a key player. But in due time, the true nature of these bloodsuckers will emerge. I hope Israel hasn't ceded anything too significant before then. Pres.Bush must keep Baker at arms-length from any major role in these "negotiations."
"Israel will not be a Czecheslovakia"
I pray that it won't, sheik yerbouty.
You'd think after 15 years of "negotiations" we'd have figured that out. The only think State has learned is that Israel can be pressured and the Arabs can't. The Baker thing is strange. Saudi Arabia's lawyer shouldn't be involved in US foreign policy.
A further possibility is that Bush and Rice both see the Israel/Palestinian conflict linked to the War Against Terrrorism. If their mission indeed is to introduce freedom into the Arab world, they cannot but cozy up to these Arabs and at least pose as a "fair" representative of that freedom. The Arab leadership will never be able to turn their populations in the direction of Democracy without the US being regarded in a more positive light.
The good news, I think, is that some way, somehow, the Arabs will screw it up, and hopefully Siyata Dishmaya
(G-d's help) will intervene on behalf of Israel. However, if by some miracle genuine Democracy is introduced into the Arab world, it would be a big step in the War Against Islamic Terrorism." But we're talking about a long, arduous process which at best will have its good days and bad days.
If Palestine were indeed to become a state, and Hamas a declared non-participant in the so-called ceasefire, were then to attack Israel, the excuse of "occupied territory" will no longer hold, and maybe that's how Israel will be able to justify to the world to finally fight a no-holds- barred war against this enemy.
Sure it is very relevant to any Palestinian propogandist who starts with the view that if they did not get every single thing they wanted and more they will revert to savages and it is the fault of the Jews.
"Anyone want to bet that the "paper" wasn't given to Sharon for his comments/additions prior to its circulation?"
>Is this an allusion to the July 2000 Camp David summit which in the new book, "The Truth About Camp David," author Clayton Swisher makes the claim that Clinton ordered (during his absence to attend a fund raiser) that Dennis Ross take the draft over to Ehud Barak to give him a "sneak preview," and when changes were demanded by Barak, Ross made them, thereby undermining on the part of the Palestinians' confidence that the U.S. could be a fair broker and draftor? That it was these things that Swisher lists, and not that there wasn't a "peace partner," that caused the summit to fail? Has this allegation been confirmed elsewhere, and was it relevant?
>>Sure it is very relevant to any Palestinian propogandist who starts with the view that if they did not get every single thing they wanted and more they will revert to savages and it is the fault of the Jews.
>>>If I understand the author, Clayton Swisher, he contrasted that compromised process with the process President Carter followed when he was able to bring Egypt and Israel together in a permanent peace agreement.
Swisher goes on to say that there was then a concerted campaign between America and Israel to blame Arafat for there not being any peace partner, for turning down "the deal." Swisher says that in Dan Meridor's own words, who was one of the Likud’s members that Barak brought with him: "he [Meridor] talks about the night before staying up with [American Middle East Envoy] Dennis Ross and drafting the blame speech."
Yet according to Aaron Miller, Deputy Middle East Envoy, “There was no deal, there was no formalized offer.” Also from General Amnon Lipkin-Shahak, former IDF Chief of Staff who was one of Barak’s negotiators at Camp David, “It was not a serious dialogue.”
So the question arises whether the public has been given information by which to make informed assessments? (see Clayton Swisher's appearance on BookTV for the sourcing for this information: http://www.c-spanstore.org/cgi-bin/cspanstore/174221-1.html?id=WCHLXnZ8 )
The impression that the Palestinian position was "if they did not get every single thing they wanted and more" does not seem to apply to what these people are saying were the facts of the situation.
Swisher says that by misrepresenting what actually took place, positions were hardened and polarized leading to a situation where almost 1100 Israelis and almost 3300 Palestinians have been killed since, whereas in the three years preceding this missed Camp David opportunity that only 12 Israelis, as tragic as that is, had died.
If the situation were reversed, and instead the draft had been carried to Arafat for the "sneak preview," hopefully there would be just as much and more concern for Israel's sake about the integrity of the process. Also, if Clayton Swisher - who comes across as a sincere young man, and who recommends reading all the books of those who were involved, not just his - is wrong on the facts in his book, this reader would be interested.
Hopefully lessons learned will serve to strengthen the negotiation process now underway, and it will lead to a permanent peace such as Israel, Egypt and Jordan together enjoy.
Oh man.....
I thought it strange watching Condi on TV today, how she was smiling and exhuberant as if this cease-fire 'agreement' was some new ground-breaking achievment. It is nothing new.
Yes I am sure Clinton brought Arafat to the White House more than anyone else (except Monica) in order to not make a serious offer at the last second. And of course we have the Zionist conspiracy (they control Clinton also) to fool the whole world. If there were any minor changes made at the close that should have not been enough for Arafat to go home and start a war (actually it had already started).
"Yes I am sure Clinton brought Arafat to the White House more than anyone else (except Monica) in order to not make a serious offer..."
> Swisher makes the case that the process was so fouled up (because they got away from using drafts and had not done their homework it broke down into a bazaar of proliferating voices, NSC and State often yelling at each other) such that they could not effectively get to the substance, some of which was indeed groundbreaking and historical.
"...of course we have the Zionist conspiracy (they control Clinton also) to fool the whole world."
> [speculative here] It didn't need to be a Zionist conspiracy, there just needed to be an upcoming Presidential election where every vote counted (his wife was running for Senator in NY) to spin it a certain way.
"If there were any minor changes made at the close that should have not been enough for Arafat to go home"
> According to Swisher, in December with negotiations running out of time they didn't even have maps to mark up (he repeats this three times for effect). The process was flawed because nothing was getting written down. He contrasts this with Carter's approach and the Geneva Accords approach.
"...and start a war (actually it had already started)."
> Swisher makes the case that Arafat did everything he could to try and keep Sharon from going to the Temple Mount when things were such a tinderbox given how Camp David was portrayed as Arafat rejecting the best deal he would ever get.
Swisher also says that the Palestinians made a huge mistake in not correcting the record when it was portrayed that a "deal" had been offered and rejected. He also says that both Vice President Dick Cheney and Secretary of State Colin Powell were given "tainted" briefings as to what had really happened when they came into office.
Here is part of the transcript I took notes on from the Swisher BookTV program. I by no means have come to any conclusions, waiting hopefully for possible rebuttals of the facts to first be debated more fully in the press. The goal is that hopefully the current negotiations may be far more constructive for both sides.:
[Swisher] "The main sin that I have, the main criticism I have of the Clinton Administration in spite of all their hard efforts is the way they left things off. The one thing the Bush Administration was entitled to – and I’m not to suggest here for a moment, I’m not going to tell you that they were eager to jump on Middle East peace and they were going to do better folks, that would be a lie, but they were entitled to a fair incoming brief on why things ended, and how they ended, and who bore responsibility.
Unfortunately, the atmosphere was so charged, so conflated were the hopes, so unrealistic were the expectations, that the briefing that you will see, that was given, and you’ll hear Aaron Miller, Deputy Middle East Envoy talk about it, was a very tainted one. Colin Powell was given a very tainted brief, and why the Camp David talks ended, why the chances for Middle East peace dissipated. Vice President Chaney in January 2004 this year in Beverly Hills, he was giving a fund raiser, and he says at this fund raiser, he says I can remember Inauguration day January 20, 2001 and we were in the White House as it was customary that day and all Clinton kept doing was pacing back and forth saying how Arafat screwed him and to not deal with him.
These same things have been repeated over and over again, and folks they gave way to this no partner for peace theory. No, there is no Palestinian partner for peace. That this is what the Israelis left, I mean with the American Administration giving their imprimatur to it, this is what they had believed, that it is the truth.
There was also a very prolific debate in Israeli newspapers this summer that this debate was falsified intelligence on behalf of the Israeli Ministry of Defense. There is a very prolific debate about falsified intelligence assessments that were made that summer to members of the Knesset and political leaders blaming Arafat saying he had held everything up on the right of return and that he didn’t envision a two-state solution. Very similar to the sorts of things we saw in our Defense Department pre-Iraq war. Manipulating the intelligence, feeding that which would serve an agenda. They existed in Israel too.
I’m saying these things clouded, and they paved the way for a very grim time that has followed and has continued. With Arafat’s passing recently, a lot of people hope there is going to be Palestinian leadership that is going to be more pliant, that is going to accept less than what Arafat turned away. This is very wishful thinking. Abu Mazen Abu Ala, the entire Palestinian delegation – I interviewed Mohammed Dahlan and he said to me it wasn’t just Arafat that found these positions untenable, it was all of us.
And indeed the percentages improved significantly in the months that continued between July at Camp David and December. That is to suggest that it would have continued if the political clock had not ran out, they might have ended up somewhere close to positions that were laid out at Geneva."
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.