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Scientists say lobsters feel no pain
Guardian ^ | 2/8/05 | David Adam

Posted on 02/09/2005 7:00:48 AM PST by LibWhacker

It is the ethical dilemma that for decades has troubled the rich and aspiring the world over: when you place a live lobster in a pot of boiling water, does it feel pain?

Norwegian scientists were asked to investigate pain, discomfort and stress in invertebrates and claim now to have discovered that the answer is no.

Their conclusion applies also to crabs and to live worms on a fish hook. None of these feel a thing. Which is good news for Norwegian fishermen at least.

Their government was considering a ban on live worms as fish bait under revisions to its animal protection laws - but only if it hurt. Wenche Farstad of the Norwegian School of Veterinary Science in Oslo now says it does not.

"It seems to be only reflex curling when put on the hook. They might sense something but it is not painful and does not compromise their well-being," said Prof Farstad, who chaired the panel that prepared the government report. "The common earthworm has a very simple nervous system. It can be cut in two and continue with its business."

The report looked at welfare implications of everything from cooking live crabs and lobsters to keeping bees. Invertebrates are animals without backbones, covering creatures from insects and spiders to mollusks and crustaceans.

Honeybees deserve special care, Prof Farstad said, because they display social behaviour and a capacity to learn and cooperate. But invertebrates do not feel pain because they have basic nervous systems and small brains.

Peter Fraser, a marine biologist at the University of Aberdeen, says crabs and lobsters have only about 100,000 neurons, compared with 100bn in people and other vertebrates. While this allows them to react to threatening stimuli, he said there is no evidence they feel pain.

Tiny perforations in leg bones allow crabs and lobsters to jettison limbs if trapped by predators. "That doesn't demonstrate whether they feel pain or not, but it does demonstrate they have very different mechanisms," Dr Fraser said. "If we tried to throw off a leg I'd imagine that would be very painful indeed."


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: animalrights; arthropods; boil; boilingwater; classcrustacea; crustacean; drawnbutter; earthworm; exoskeleton; homarus; hook; invertebrates; lobsters; nervous; oldbay; pain; peta; phylumarthropoda; system; ventralnervecord; worms; yummmmmmm
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1 posted on 02/09/2005 7:00:48 AM PST by LibWhacker
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To: LibWhacker

I never had an ethical dilemma regarding lobsters.


2 posted on 02/09/2005 7:02:06 AM PST by MTD
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To: LibWhacker

3 posted on 02/09/2005 7:02:20 AM PST by martin_fierro (Fierro-san)
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To: LibWhacker

Gee whiz, now I will feel so much better when I have my Fierce Allegiance Day dinner tonight!


4 posted on 02/09/2005 7:03:50 AM PST by Fierce Allegiance (Happy Fierce Allegiance Day)
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To: LibWhacker
It is the ethical dilemma that for decades has troubled the rich and aspiring the world over: when you place a live lobster in a pot of boiling water, does it feel pain?

I have never cared.

Get your bitch ass in my pot and turn red damnit!

5 posted on 02/09/2005 7:04:04 AM PST by Phantom Lord (Advantages are taken, not handed out)
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To: LibWhacker
God forgive me, but I don't care if they do.

Pass the butter, please.

sw

6 posted on 02/09/2005 7:05:29 AM PST by spectre (Spectre's wife)
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To: LibWhacker
Their government was considering a ban on live worms as fish bait under revisions to its animal protection laws - but only if it hurt.

Next, I'm sure, they will pass laws banning abortion. (But only if it hurts)

7 posted on 02/09/2005 7:09:08 AM PST by NY.SS-Bar9 (Imagine a world without hypotheticals)
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To: LibWhacker

THEY are here.

8 posted on 02/09/2005 7:10:16 AM PST by COUNTrecount
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To: LibWhacker

Anyone who has ever tossed live crabs into a pot of boiling water and heard how loud they scream and seen how hard they fight find a way to climb out of the pot would question the conclusion of this research. The trick is to put them in cold water and slowly increase the temperature.


9 posted on 02/09/2005 7:10:52 AM PST by contemplator
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To: spectre

"God forgive me, but I don't care if they do.
Pass the butter, please."

-LOL, That was so beautiful it deserved a reprise!!!


10 posted on 02/09/2005 7:12:15 AM PST by johnnycap
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To: LibWhacker
Great! Now I can finally eat these without a guilty conscience!

Oh yeah, and don't forgot to smother them with this:

and to wash them down with:


11 posted on 02/09/2005 7:15:56 AM PST by An.American.Expatriate (Life is sexually transmitted.)
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To: MTD; LibWhacker

Yum, lobsters... I've never had any issues either. But I do wince a little when I have to put the live ones in the pot. Yes, we chill them first to 'numb' them. We don't have them a lot, but I still flinch a little. Mmmmm, lobbies (as we call them)...


12 posted on 02/09/2005 7:16:23 AM PST by fortunecookie
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To: contemplator
Anyone who has ever tossed live crabs into a pot of boiling water and heard how loud they scream

How do you scream without vocal cords? Methinks that's just steam escaping...
13 posted on 02/09/2005 7:16:55 AM PST by beezdotcom (I'm usually either right or wrong...)
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To: LibWhacker

Well John Kerry said he felt no pain when he shot himself in the azz to get one of his 3 purple hearts that he was allowed to keep unlike Marine Cpl. Travis Eichelberger who was run over by 67-ton Abrams tank in Iraq. So does this mean Kerry is a lobster?


14 posted on 02/09/2005 7:18:42 AM PST by Imaverygooddriver (I`m a very good driver and I approve this message.)
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To: LibWhacker
It is the ethical dilemma that for decades has troubled the rich and aspiring the world over: when you place a live lobster in a pot of boiling water, does it feel pain?

Well, let’s see…

I knew one dope that popped a radiator cap and got sprayed in the face/neck/arm with boiling+ water. He claimed not to feel much pain at the time it happened. Literally had third degree burns and claimed the pain didn’t start until sometime after they had cleaned/bandaged him up.

I knew a kid that was running around a campground and fell into coals that had been covered over with dirt. He had second and third degree burns on forearms/chest/belly. He also claimed it scared him more than it hurt initially.

Knew another guy that got burned bad stabbing in a fuse when he was a lineman. He was doing everything just right – standing on the rubber mat, wearing his fire suit, the works. But for some reason something arced and a plasma ball rolled down the fiberglass rod and burned him up.

Burned him “bad” up. Burned off his arms. Burned one leg off and the other was burned up enough that they had to amputate it. Burned off his ears and nose, damaged his lungs and eyes – the whole deal. He always claimed not to have felt anything at the time either.

That seems to be pretty normal. Talk to anyone that has been injured seriously (fall off a roof, motorcycle wreck, etc) and they’ll usually tell you they were numb or something.

And, who really cares whether a fish/worm/lobster feels pain anyway?

15 posted on 02/09/2005 7:19:52 AM PST by Who dat?
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To: contemplator
Anyone who has ever tossed live crabs into a pot of boiling water and heard how loud they scream
I wasn't aware that crustaceons had vocal chords.

I think that the 'scream' is the sound of steam rushing out of their shells -- like a tea kettle.

16 posted on 02/09/2005 7:20:45 AM PST by bikepacker67 ("Donovan McNabb... I can't HEAR YOU" < / Who's your Mommy>)
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To: LibWhacker
It seems to be only reflex curling when put on the hook. They might sense something but it is not painful and does not compromise their well-being

Uuuhhhh I'd say being put on a hook as bait would compromise one's well being...whether you feel it or not.

17 posted on 02/09/2005 7:21:00 AM PST by volchef (Give a hoot, don't pollute (send your kids to private school))
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To: Howlin; Ed_NYC; MonroeDNA; widgysoft; Springman; Timesink; dubyaismypresident; Grani; coug97; ...
Anyone who has ever tossed live crabs into a pot of boiling water and heard how loud they scream and seen how hard they fight find a way to climb out of the pot

That's what the lid is for!

Just damn.

If you want on the list, FReepmail me. This IS a high-volume PING list...

18 posted on 02/09/2005 7:22:47 AM PST by mhking (Do not mess with dragons, for thou art crunchy & good with ketchup...)
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To: LibWhacker

Then why do they thrash about when placed in boiling water?


19 posted on 02/09/2005 7:22:55 AM PST by IonInsights
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To: LibWhacker

Just in time for guilt-free Lobsterfest dining at Red Lobster....


20 posted on 02/09/2005 7:24:12 AM PST by steveegg (The secret goal of lieberals - to ensure that no future generation can possibly equal theirs.)
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To: An.American.Expatriate
For that many crabs, you'd be better served with:
21 posted on 02/09/2005 7:25:45 AM PST by LiveBait
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To: LibWhacker; NYer
Their government was considering a ban on live worms as fish bait under revisions to its animal protection laws - but only if it hurt.

Gee, is partial-birth abortion legal there? How do they feel about that?

22 posted on 02/09/2005 7:25:59 AM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: LibWhacker

Maybe it's more like: The poor bastards, they never knew what hit them!


23 posted on 02/09/2005 7:26:15 AM PST by Chi-townChief
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To: An.American.Expatriate

Ahhh Natty Bo.


24 posted on 02/09/2005 7:26:19 AM PST by cruiserman
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To: mhking
That's what the lid is for!

Quote of the day. I'm a proud charter member of People Eating Tasty Animals (and lobster is mighty tasty).

25 posted on 02/09/2005 7:27:15 AM PST by steveegg (The secret goal of lieberals - to ensure that no future generation can possibly equal theirs.)
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To: LibWhacker
Scientists say lobsters feel no pain

Isn't Tara Reid
always drunk? Does this mean it's
safe to eat Tara?






26 posted on 02/09/2005 7:28:15 AM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: LibWhacker

You mean the lobsters are faking it when they scream? How precious.


27 posted on 02/09/2005 7:29:36 AM PST by bayourod (Unless we get over 40% of the Hispanic vote in 2008, President Hillary will take all your guns away.)
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To: LibWhacker

Paging Mary Tyler Moore...Paging Mary Tyler Moore...Please pick up the white phone Ms. Moore.


28 posted on 02/09/2005 7:30:11 AM PST by Tennessean4Bush (An optimist believes we live in the best of all possible worlds, a pessimist fears this is true.)
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To: MTD
I never had an ethical dilemma regarding lobsters

I have an ethical dilemma about dropping live lobsters into a pot of boiling water.

They taste far better when they are steamed rather than boiled. Spouse and I usually let ours race a lap ot two around the kitchen floor before popping 'em into the steampot.

29 posted on 02/09/2005 7:30:32 AM PST by TheRightGuy (ERROR CODE 018974523: Random Tagline Compiler Failure)
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To: An.American.Expatriate

Boh...dacious!

30 posted on 02/09/2005 7:32:10 AM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

A hit! A palpable hit! That is a question that they dare not explore.


31 posted on 02/09/2005 7:32:33 AM PST by NonValueAdded ("We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good" HRC 6/28/2004)
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To: LibWhacker
Their government was considering a ban on live worms as fish bait under revisions to its animal protection laws - but only if it hurt.

We now officially live in a world where 'Mad Magazine' is considered serious literature.

32 posted on 02/09/2005 7:32:50 AM PST by F16Fighter
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To: LiveBait

#30 (above)


33 posted on 02/09/2005 7:33:59 AM PST by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: bayourod
"You mean the lobsters are faking it when they scream? How precious."

Lobsters "scream"??

I'd change my prescription if I were you.

34 posted on 02/09/2005 7:34:53 AM PST by F16Fighter
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To: LibWhacker
"Norwegian scientists were asked to investigate pain, discomfort and stress in invertebrates and claim now to have discovered that the answer is no."

You know if the discovery was that they did feel pain, the media would NOT have labeled it a claim but instead a fact.

35 posted on 02/09/2005 7:37:02 AM PST by Tempest (Click on my name for a long list of press contacts)
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity

Norway
2003-- 13,836 abortions


36 posted on 02/09/2005 7:38:44 AM PST by jmhfnyc
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To: Who dat?
And, who really cares whether a fish/worm/lobster feels pain anyway?

Civilized people recognize that while being higher on the food chain allows us to take their lives, there's nothing to be gained in unnecessary pain & suffering.

It's the difference between a quick, clean kill and dragging it out.

Someone who doesn't care about, or indeed revels in, other creatures' pain is someone in desperate need of psychiatric help.

37 posted on 02/09/2005 7:40:21 AM PST by Chemist_Geek ("Drill, R&D, and conserve" should be our watchwords! Energy independence for America!)
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To: jmhfnyc

Source for abortion statistic.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-norway.html


38 posted on 02/09/2005 7:40:52 AM PST by jmhfnyc
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To: LibWhacker
when you place a live lobster in a pot of boiling water, does it feel pain?

Maybe not, but it hurts like hell when an octopus tears one apart and eats it!
39 posted on 02/09/2005 7:46:05 AM PST by RetroWarrior ("We count it death to falter, not to die")
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To: LibWhacker

I wonder what their take on the PAIN that Terry Schiavo will feel when the starve her to death?


40 posted on 02/09/2005 7:48:46 AM PST by lonerepubinma
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To: NY.SS-Bar9
Next, I'm sure, they will pass laws banning abortion.

The people who worry that perhaps fishing worms feel pain wouldn't ban abortions if the babies were screaming in agony. In fact, faced with evidence of babies born alive in abortion mills and doing just that (before being drowned or suffocated), they shrug their shoulders.

Hard to believe? Not if you're familiar with that great Princeton philosopher Peter Singer and the bioethicists who have followed his lead.

41 posted on 02/09/2005 7:48:54 AM PST by madprof98
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To: LibWhacker
"We feel your pain"


42 posted on 02/09/2005 7:49:02 AM PST by Rokurota (.)
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To: LibWhacker
I love crab and lobster, but I always have this question:
Who was the first person to look at a live crab or lobster and say, "Mmmmm! That looks tasty!"

Lobster Q&A and cooking tips

43 posted on 02/09/2005 7:56:00 AM PST by Ignatz ("Scribe of the Unwritten Law". ( Hey, someone's gotta NOT write this stuff down! ))
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To: Ignatz
>Who was the first person to look at a live crab or lobster and say, "Mmmmm! That looks tasty!"



44 posted on 02/09/2005 8:01:19 AM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: LibWhacker

"But invertebrates do not feel pain because they have basic nervous systems and small brains."

I don't understand this. Libs don't have a backbone and have small brains, but they feel EVERYONES pain.


45 posted on 02/09/2005 8:04:05 AM PST by jim_trent
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To: Chemist_Geek
Civilized people recognize that while being higher on the food chain allows us to take their lives, there's nothing to be gained in unnecessary pain & suffering.

I would contend that 1) any pain experienced by the lobster/fish/worm during boiling/catching/killing IS necessary and 2) there is nothing to be gained by worrying about it.

While, simultaneously, there IS something to be gained by NOT worrying about it - mainly food.

46 posted on 02/09/2005 8:05:01 AM PST by Who dat?
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To: Ignatz
Live lobsters can be kept for approximately 12 hours under refrigerated conditions although most will survive for at least 24 hours.

Maybe the Norwegians should make sure that the Lobsters have some blankets to keep warm, as well.

47 posted on 02/09/2005 8:10:34 AM PST by Rokurota (.)
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To: LibWhacker

NNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


I really used to enjoy pretending the hissing of air escaping from the shell was screams of horrendous pain....now how am I going to enjoy my lobster?

Maybe I'll just have to think of PETA as I dunk in the butter and garlic. mmmmmmm, tears of ultimate sorrow....mmmmm


48 posted on 02/09/2005 8:13:05 AM PST by trubluolyguy ("I like you, therefore when I rule the world, your death shall be quick and painless")
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To: Who dat?

By any chance were any of these people's last words before their horrible ordeal..."Hey y'all, watch this"


49 posted on 02/09/2005 8:16:27 AM PST by trubluolyguy ("I like you, therefore when I rule the world, your death shall be quick and painless")
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To: theFIRMbss

I live under the assumption it is not safe to put any part of her in your mouth.


50 posted on 02/09/2005 8:18:30 AM PST by trubluolyguy ("I like you, therefore when I rule the world, your death shall be quick and painless")
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