The Confederate battle flag and the U.S. Civil War battle flag fly side by side over a monument installed in the ground at the newly renovated historic Ringgold Depot.
Posted on 02/17/2005 7:20:55 AM PST by stainlessbanner
A crowd packed Ringgold City Hall on Feb. 14 to present impassioned arguments for and against the flying of the Con-federate battle flag at the historic Ringgold Depot.
During renovations last year at the historic structure three flags were hoisted over the building — the Confederate battle flag, the current United States flag, and the U.S. flag of 1863.
Lifelong Ringgold resident Paul Croft said the Confederate banner symbolizes hate and fear for him.
Croft said the battle flag evokes memories of his childhood when his mother warned him to hide from the KKK, and he would peek out the window and watch them go by his house.
“We’re not saying get rid of the flag or hide the flag,” he said.
Citing Isaiah 1:18 from the Bible, Croft proposed a com-promise by displaying the flag inside the Depot as part of its museum rather than flying it outside.
Councilman G. Larry Black proposed another alternative. Noting that many people consider the banner a symbol of hate, Black made a motion to take down the battle flag and instead fly the original Confederate flag, similar to the current Georgia state flag. Councilman J.B. Petty seconded the motion, but the council voted the measure down with Black its only supporter.
After the meeting, Black said he does not want to offend anybody and was elected to represent all the citizens of Ringgold.
“We don’t need to be arguing about this,” he said. “I regret the city putting it up there.”
Though unsure what alternatives are available that will please both sides of the issue, Black said, “If I get the opportunity to vote to take it down, I will vote to take it down.”
David Terry, a member of the Sons of Confederate Veterans, extended an invitation to those opposed to the flying of the Confederate battle flag to attend the group’s next meet-ing. He said through education both sides can come to a better understanding of the other.
“We stand against hate groups,” he said, claiming the flag is wrongly the focus of opposition to such groups.
“I know the flag becomes a target of the hate,” Terry said, “but we don’t like the flag being used by the hate groups, and we are as offended by their use of our flag as the African American community.”
Council member Martha Denton said she does not want the Confederate banner taken down and has received only positive comments about its display.
“It is beautiful,” she said.
Councilmen O.C. Adcock and Bill McMillon said they do not consider the flag a symbol of hatred, but conceded that more discussion is needed.
Petty said whatever measure the majority of the council votes for he will support. But he said he believes the flag should come down because of the feelings it causes in some.
“You have to draw the line and do what you think is best in your heart,” he said. “It’s a serious thing.”
Marshall Lumpkin, also a lifelong Ringgold resident, said he understands how “the flag is history for some people.” But it does not belong on public display, flown outside the Ringgold Depot, Lumpkin said.
Harry Reeves, pastor of Mt. Peria Missionary Baptist Church, said not everybody in the community is happy with the flag flying, and opposition is taking a holistic approach to the issue.
Ringgold resident Julie Wolff said the flag is not a race issue but a heritage and history issue.
“Yes, it may have been used as a symbol of hate by some redneck idiots but that is not its intent at the Depot,” she said. “My son should be able to know history as it was, not as how an older generation has formed it.”
Mayor Joe Barger said for him the issue is also one of heritage. He said his grandfather served in the Civil War on the side of the South, and he does not want the flag re-moved.
After nearly an hour of discussion the council agreed to postpone voting on the issue, pending further consideration and discussion.
The Confederate battle flag and the U.S. Civil War battle flag fly side by side over a monument installed in the ground at the newly renovated historic Ringgold Depot.
Mr. Croft forgot a few Bible verses:
Raise a banner on a bare hilltop, shout to them; beckon to them to enter the gates of the nobles.
--Isaiah 13:2"The Israelites are to camp around the Tent of Meeting some distance from it, each man under his standard with the banners of his family."
--Numbers 2:2We will shout for joy when you are victorious and will lift up our banners in the name of our God. May the LORD grant all your requests.
--Psalm 20:5
herewegoagain
The next recorded organization of negroes, especially as Rebel soldiers, was at Mobile, toward Autumn; and two or three months later, the following telegram was flashed over the length and breadth of the rejoicing Confederacy:
“New Orleans, Nov. 23, 1861. “Over 28,000 troops were reviewed today by Gov. Moore, Maj. Gen. Lowell, and Brig.-Gen. Ruggles. The line was over seven miles long. One regiment comprised 1,400 free colored men.”
"many people consider the banner a symbol of hate"
Many people are also ignorant.
If these people would read the History of the Flag they might realize it had nothing to do with the Confederacy.It was our Battle Flag,and that's all.The colors were easy to see thru the black powder smoke.I'll fly mine if the time comes.Otherwise the 1st National does me fine....No need to argue with a rock,,,seems as though some people are afraid to know the truth...Could the South,possibly have been Right?
Does that include those citizens who would be offended if the flag is taken down?
Zat you, Howard Dean?
I am proud to from the South and I proud of my forefathers who served in the CSA in both the Army of Tennessee and the Army of North Carolina. I am deeply offended when I see klansmen, particularly Yankee klansmen, fly what is called the battle flag of the CSA. I am also deeply offended when I am told to discount my history and family heritage as a way to rewrite history.
All of that said, I recall the words of one of my fraternity brothers when he wrote, "the flag is a symbol of open rebellion against the United States of America. The war is over and if we are to have one nation we must furl our flags and store them in a place of honor."
"It was our battle flag"
That flag symbolizes rebellion. Nice, don't you think?
The KKK co-opted the battle flag in the same manner they co-opted the United States flag. Why would one flag symbolize hate and fear and the other one doesn't.
In fact the US flag is the only flag the KKK is required to use. Mr. Croft needs to brush up on his history.
"That flag symbolizes rebellion. Nice, don't you think?"
So by your logic, our American flag symbolizes rebellion also - just against Britain.
I guess in that case it's a "revolution" though -- because it succeeded, right?
Let's make sure we're looking at things through eyes of the same color, folks.
"Most of us are voting for "hate.""
I find that attitude, in itself, hateful. You presume to read people's hearts? Possibly you should look into your own. I am American and Southern. The U.S. flag is a symbol of my American heritage and the CBF is a symbol of my Southern heritage. Nothing less and nothing more.
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
Recall seeing a photo of a black Son of the South carrying
the Stars and Bars. He said a lot of folk couldn't understand why he marched with that flag. He said it was the
flag his ancestors had fought under. On that day -when
Democrats were insisting it was a banner of Hate. (and Robert Byrd stayed silent) I sewed the stars and bars on my jean jacket. And I defy any ignorant SOB to prove I
am spreading HATE.The only folk I Hate are those who HATE
God -and those I dislike are those who would keep the South
in beggars cloths-treating them as if they were NOT American
Amen StonyBurk. BTW, Not that it matters much but I was taught that the battle flag was called 'The Southern Cross' and that the 1st National was 'The Stars and Bars'.
the damnyankees & the IGNORANT dupes, who believe their LIES, ride again!
stupidity about our bloodspattered CSA battleflag is EVERYWHERE.
free dixie,sw
No. By my logic the American flag (which I love) needs to see more of what the CBF symbolizes.
It has nothing to do with geographical locations or color. Just spirit.
paul croft should "get a life", imVho.
free dixie,sw
It's heritage to some and hate to some. Some people really hate the American flag too. There was a 'black' confederate flag the same colors as the flag outside the black history museum in Harlem, but I don't think that is going to go over too well. I've met black guys who ride motorcycles who wear battle flag patches, and middle class intellectuals who hate it. Some people think it's the equivalent of the nazi flag and wear it in that spirit. Lots of indigenous people were slaughtered under the US flag.
You are most probably closer to the truth than I -- but I
was raised in Colorado and I never heard the term Southern Cross until I enlisted in the Army. And those who introduced the term merely said it was a term for the
Battle flag. But thanks. In th eArmy I learned those I
could rely on most generally came from the South.OR South West.
1. the damnyankees who HATE dixie, her flags, her hero-martyrs, her memorials,her separate culture & her PEOPLE &
2. the terminally IGNORANT, who are victims of the "publick screwl edumakashun sistim".
one group is HATEFILLED;the other is DUMB and/or STUPID.
free dixie,sw
One man's meat is another man's poison. Black folks who display the CBF up here in NY are either vietnam war vets, bikers or are social misfits who like to be different. Then there are black people who really hate it, and well... what is one going to say? Who has the stamina for a discussion/debate about slavery in America all the time? I don't. The white liberals are the worst though in my humble experience. They go more bananas than anyone I've ever met.
free dixie,sw
Our country has one flag.
The confederate flag represents the side that LOST the civil war.
While the reasons our country went into civil war were broad and misrepresented in hindsight by folks with agendas, the outcome of the war was ONE NATION.
Where would we be today if the result of the Civil War was two nations with separate governments?
The Union would have eventually become a socialist European type country, while the Confederacy would be a nation of free people constantly under attack from all sides.
The rest of the world would be controlled by the offspring of the despots we defeated in past world wars.
What kind of national security situation would we have today if that was the case?
The heritage of our ONE NATION is the heritage which should be championed. It's time to move on from the "southern pride" mentality and embrace the real flag. We are a nation at war and our soldiers are fighting under the US flag. When will "American Pride" leave "southern pride" to the dusty annals of history?
Championing a divisive symbol like the confederate stars and bars only helps the liberals keep the electorate in a panic and perpetual state of mistrust. Wise up, suckers!
The war, quite obviously, isn't over.
It is long past time that you learned why it was fought in the first place, so that you can reach an understanding about why it is still being fought today...if no longer on the battlefields.
With understanding, peace may be possible.
And by your comments, you cannot understand that the war will continue to be fought.
Some people do not surrender their freedom even after losing a war.
Welcome to FR.
The Confederate flag is a part of Southern heritage, whether you like it or not. It has nothing to do with anyone "wising up" - as you so "wise"ly put it.
If the flag is divisive to some - so be it. Everyone will be offended by SOMETHING - and pure ignorance is the only reason someone would be offended by the Stars and Bars. Period.
As I said previously, it is only considered a "rebellion" because it did not succeed. Brave men on both sides of that war fought with all their hearts for things they believed in. To stifle either side's pride in their heritage does a diservice to both - and that is a fact.
Don't like the flag? You don't have to - you can choose to ignore it. It's a part of this entire country's heritage, however.
Stick THAT in your "wise up" pipe, sucker....and breathe deeply.
If you think the war is still being fought, then you are part of the problem and are a hinderance to 'understanding'.
What freedom have you not surrendered?
Educate me.
Don't Blink.....We are one Nation only because each individual State elected to join.Not by force,by option.You're about as illuminating as a burnt out lightbulb.
the ONLY part of your post that is correct is that a USA, absent the southland, would be an Imperialist/SOCIALIST country.
fwiw, when i was on AD in the RVN period, i flew the CBF & the US flags from my antennas on my jeep EVERY day with NO PROBLEM! (in point of fact, i got RAVE REVIEWS from all & sundry!)
had we southrons won our war for LIBERTY from the damnyankees, we would likely be in about the same situation today as we have with Canada. (the last time i looked, nobody was suggesting that the US/Canada relationship is "warlike". it was NOT that way in the 19th century!)
free dixie,sw
It's not just a 'symbol' of heritage.
It's a flag.
Flags are not just symbols.
Flags represent nations.
I'm not offended by anything except lame music.
I don't want to censor anyone's freedom of expression.
This is a dialogue.
Opinions are not facts just because their typed into a box and posted.
Stainless then,and Stainless now.
"It is the battle flag of a traitor army that tried to preserve slavery..."
HELLO!!!!
WAKE UP!!!!
The flag of the United States of America is also a "traitor" flag, by your definition....in the eyes of the Brits.
And slavery.....yeah - there were slaves in the North, South, East and West at the time of this country's "traitorous" rebellion from the King of England - not to mention on each and every continent on this globe!
How in the WORLD can anyone see things through such skewed and uneducated eyes as yours?
Is it? Please tell us the origin of the CBF and post for us.
Never. Southern Pride is American Pride.
Scream Dean just proved that. Gotta keep the race war going, ya know
When the Mexican/Americans, African/Americans, Gay/Americans.....whatever (fill in the blank)/Americans currently dominating the pages of the MSM allow us to be proud of OUR heritage, too!
Sorry, Sweetie. It was a perfectly legitimate act of men trying to uphold the law.
Federalist No. 39
The Conformity of the Plan to Republican Principles
(For the Independent Journal)
James Madison
Were the people regarded in this transaction as forming one nation, the will of the majority of the whole people of the United States would bind the minority, in the same manner as the majority in each State must bind the minority; and the will of the majority must be determined either by a comparison of the individual votes, or by considering the will of the majority of the States as evidence of the will of a majority of the people of the United States. Neither of these rules have been adopted. Each State, in ratifying the Constitution, is considered as a sovereign body, independent of all others, and only to be bound by its own voluntary act.
(Emphasis mine)
But then again, you probably believe we live in a *Democracy* too.
Race pimping has a lot of money it especially with corporate diversity programs. If you ever been to one, you know how awful there are! LOL
1. Of 228 years of slavery in the U.S. (it STILL exists in Africa,and other places, and is like much of the violent crime in the U.S. - black-on-black) ONLY 4 years of it involved the Confederacy.
2. General Lee freed his slaves early on, General Grant did not.
3. No slaves were brought to the U.S. under a Confederate flag ship. Most were brought by foreigners or Yankees.
4. The Confederate battle flag is based on the St. Andrews Cross - a Christian flag.
Those are just a FEW of the facts that suggest that this "controversial" issue is being overblown by the MSM, some blacks who seek more power and prestige through incessant rabble-rousing, and other assorted hand-wringers.
The Confederacy and it's symbols are part of our history and Southern heritage. Is it all good? No. But is everything that has been done by our country under the Stars and Stripes good and noble? No.
Given that fact, Old Glory is probably offensive to SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE. Is that reason enough to dump our great national flag? HELL NO, and the same goes for the Confederate battle flag.
That is... UNLESS Bill Clinton is wielding one.
"That is... UNLESS Bill Clinton is wielding one."
LOL. Eww.
Some of the offended are elected officials. Conservatives should take a good look at the photo in #1. The Confederate Flag is not the only one under attack in the picture.
Confederate History is American History. Great post, DocH.
I found the same to be true in the Marine Corps, although I could usually also count on Marines from Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Michigan (to name a few Northern states), and most anyone from rural areas - no matter where in the country they were from. Also, sad to say, MOST were white guys (although not in every case). In my experience, the VAST majority of black Marines I could always count on, were from out in the country, and mainly, as you said, from the South or SW.
Just the facts as I saw them.
"A stainless banner?"
Name a stainless banner. One.
OK, Prophet, say the Confederacy had won. How long would the fledgling, slave-holding nation have survived without the trade of the Northern States, Britain and most of Europe? Never mind the fact that there was a very strong Southern, pro-Confederacy, anti-slavery movement at the time. How long do you really think slavery would have lasted?
Most of the violence and horrible acts you speak of took place after the war, when the South was being harshly punished and ruthlessly occupied by Northern forces. Sadly, it was the blacks who were caught in the middle. They caught it from both directions after the war. It wasn't until the 1950's that the North gave the first damn about what blacks were dealing with in the South.
I would love to say that my heritage or your heritage or anybody's for that matter, was nice and spotless, but it ain't. Nobody's is. We learn from the bad and cherish the good. That's all we can do as people. Judgement is reserved for God.
Unfortunately, you're right. The "revisionist history" crowd, the politically-correct bunch, and the blatantly IGNORANT are still on the march.
Washington's Birthday is now Presidents Day (as if the likes of Clinton, Carter, and the rest of their ilk DESERVE the honor). Washington's name has been stripped from the name of schools, and replaced with the name of lesser men or women. Confederate symbols and statues of great men are being removed. And on and on.
Since WE respect our history and traditions, we need to fight the bastards (a collection of liberal left-wing America-haters for the most part) every inch of the way.
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