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Bush: We will support Israel if her security is threatened by Iran
Jerusalem Post ^ | Feb. 17, 2005

Posted on 02/17/2005 9:59:20 AM PST by IAF ThunderPilot

President George W. Bush on Thursday addressed the issue of Iran's possible nuclear armament, declining to offer his full endorsement of Europe's negotiations to get Iran to halt its suspected nuclear weapons program.

He said the United States and Europe share the goal that Iran must not develop a nuclear weapon. Still, he left it up in the air whether he fully supports Europe's approach.

"I look forward to ... discussing strategies, ways forward with the Europeans to make sure we continue to speak with one voice, and that is Iran should not have a nuclear weapon and how to work together to make sure they don't," Bush said.

Asked if was concerned that Israel might attack Iran to prevent it from acquiring a nuclear weapon, Bush said Israel is concerned about Iran's intentions.

"But clearly, if I was the leader of Israel and I'd listened to some of the statements by the Iranian ayatollahs that regarded the security of my country, I'd be concerned about Iran having a nuclear weapon as well," Bush said.

He said Israel "is our ally and in that we've made a very strong commitment to support Israel, we will support Israel if her security is threatened."

Bush spoke at a news conference where he announced that John Negroponte, the US ambassador to Iraq, would be the first US director of national intelligence, the powerful overseer of all 15 intelligence agencies.

In addition, Bush said Syria was "out of step" with other nations in the Middle East and said the United States would work with other countries to pressure Damascus to remove its troops from Lebanon.

Bush said he did not know if Syria was involved in the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri.

"I can't tell you yet," Bush said. "I don't know that. I'm going to withhold judgment until we know what the facts are."

Bush said he would consult with allies about Syria when he visits Europe next week, and said the United States supports an international investigation of Hariri's assassination.

The United States has withdrawn its ambassador to Syria, Margaret Scobey, and that "indicates that the relationship is not moving forward," the president said. He said Syria was "out of step with the progress being made in the greater Middle East."

The United States expected Syria to find and turn over former supporters of Saddam Hussein's regime and send them back to Iraq and stop supporting terrorism, Bush said. He said Syria also must comply with UN resolutions calling for it to withdraw from Lebanon. Syria has 15,000 troops in Lebanon.

Looking ahead to his European trip, Bush said he knows that some allies think that his only concern is national security, and he said that national security is at the top of his agenda.

Yet, he said, "We also care about hunger and disease. We care about the climate."

Many allies are upset with the United States for refusing to approve the Kyoto climate treaty.

"They thought the treaty made sense," Bush said. "I didn't." He noted that the Senate had voted 95-0 against the treaty. Yet, Bush said there were other ways to deal with the problem of global warming and that he would talk with allies about new technologies to deal with the issue.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Government; Israel; News/Current Events; Philosophy; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: allies; allyisrael; bush43; europe; iran; israel; proisrael; usa
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To: SausageDog
...contempory Judaism could more properly be referred to as Talmudism so as to distinguish itself from the Hebrew religion of the Old Testament.

The Talmud drew from the Bible ("Old Testament"), oral traditions that came from biblical times ("Midrash"), and post-Scriptural events from around the beginning of the Common Era. You seem to want to characterize it as a wholly different religion, which would be more extreme than saying that today's (Roman Catholic) Church is not the same religion as the (Apostolic) Church.

You didn't answer my other question, why you recommend that Israel agree to disarm in response to Iran's proposal for a nuclear-free Mideast. Would your view change depending on how close modern Judaism is to Old Testament Judaism, and what would be your test? How many abortions per every 1,000 births?
201 posted on 02/21/2005 4:41:20 PM PST by kenavi ("Remember, your fathers sacrificed themselves without need of a messianic complex." Ariel Sharon)
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To: Jonah Johansen
4. CIA, NSA, FBI and State department contain dozens of Israeli sympathizers/agents. The US accepts the fact, that it can keep no secrets from Israeli security.
The CIA, NSA, and FBI keep out Zionists and seriously vet all Jews. They do this to the degree that they refues to use Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews, who speak Arabic, as translators.

(Pollard was prosecuted because the US was unhappy that the info he stole ended up in Soviet hands)
The only problem is that the evidence supposedly given to the Soviets was not the informaiton that Pollard possesed. It was the information on spies that Robert Hanssen and Aldrich Ames did. The FBI pinned the death of spies in the USSR on Pollard instead of cleaning house.
Pollard deserves to rot for what he did do, not what he did not do.

202 posted on 02/21/2005 5:23:10 PM PST by rmlew (Copperheads and Peaceniks beware! Sedition is a crime.)
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To: SausageDog

Given that you believe in Replacement Theology, what is your fealing on the Third Commonwealth of Israel.


203 posted on 02/21/2005 5:30:11 PM PST by rmlew (Copperheads and Peaceniks beware! Sedition is a crime.)
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To: kenavi

"The Talmud drew from the Bible ('Old Testament'), oral traditions that came from biblical times ('Midrash'),"

I don't recall any biblical or oral tradition describing Jesus and Mary as ...ah, well, I can't even repeat it without propagating blasphemy. Whereas a study of the Old Testament could reasonably lead to belief in Jesus, the Talmud, which superceded the Torah a the Jewish guide to doctrine, placed an insurmountable barrier to that belief.

" and post-Scriptural events from around the beginning of the Common Era."

What's this "Common Era" jazz? Are you being PC?

"You seem to want to characterize it as a wholly different religion, which would be more extreme than saying that today's (Roman Catholic) Church is not the same religion as the (Apostolic) Church."

With the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah, all biblical prophecies pertaining to the suffering Messiah had to be interpreted away. In place of these teachings came the doctrine of the Messiah as a political and military conqueror. Consequently, the Jews anointed various false messiahs such as Bar Kokhba. Furthermore, with the permanent elimination of the Temple, the Jewish priesthood and sacrificial system disappeared. Judaism was reinvented as a system of ethics.

"You didn't answer my other question, why you recommend that Israel agree to disarm in response to Iran's proposal for a nuclear-free Mideast."

Israel is not going to give up her nukes. Furthermore, as long as Israel has the nuclear option, and the Arabs haven't, Israel will continue taking all the land she wants and killing all the Arabs she wants.

" Would your view change depending on how close modern Judaism is to Old Testament Judaism, and what would be your test? How many abortions per every 1,000 births?"

That would be an interesting test. Abortion is legal in Israel but illegal in all Muslim countries. Israel's abortion rate is comparable to that of the US. It seems incongruous that Israel should squawk about Muslim atrocities while Israel kills far more of her own children than the Muslims kill.


204 posted on 02/21/2005 6:34:05 PM PST by SausageDog
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To: SausageDog
The context does not bear the weight you are placing on it. He was speaking of the leadership and to them. As far as the others were concerned,they were regarded as slaves to sin as we all were. For a slave does not remain in the house forever,but a SON does. Therefore if the SON sets you free, you are free indeed. John 8:36. Romans 11 further states "Israel has been disobedient now,so that by your showing them the same mercy that God has shown you, they may receive God's mercy. For God has shut all mankind up together in disobedience, in order that he may show mercy to all.(Romans 11:31,32) Ephesians 1 answers whether they are regarded by God to be in the tree, Romans 11:17 deals with their apparent present state.
205 posted on 02/21/2005 11:50:01 PM PST by Lysshua (And it is in this way that all Israel will be saved. Romans 11:25, 26)
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To: SausageDog

Once again.,He was speaking to the leadership! The first 'Christians' were ALL Jewish.


206 posted on 02/21/2005 11:55:30 PM PST by Lysshua (And it is in this way that all Israel will be saved. Romans 11:25, 26)
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To: SausageDog

You presume that a Temple cannot be rebuilt, even though it has occured before.


207 posted on 02/22/2005 12:00:10 AM PST by rmlew (Copperheads and Peaceniks beware! Sedition is a crime.)
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Comment #208 Removed by Moderator

To: SausageDog

They(as far as abortion is concerned) are only following OUR 'Christian democracy's' bad example. Pray that both nations will repent and see life as God sees it. Ps. 139:13-16


209 posted on 02/22/2005 12:06:16 AM PST by Lysshua (And it is in this way that all Israel will be saved. Romans 11:25, 26)
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To: SausageDog
You assume that the State of Israel is indeed the continuation of Old Testament Judaism. If fact, both the biological connection and religious connection are very tenuous. The Romans exterminated almost the entire Jewish population of Palestine on two occasions -- once in A.D. 70 and again in A.D. 140, when the Romans put down Jewish revolts. The Jews of today are largely descendants of gentile converts.
Sorry, but your history is quite wrong. The population of Judea was decimated, but hardly ended in 70 and 135. By then, there was already a very large Jewish population in Egypt, Cyrenica, Mesopatamia, Persia, and Asia Minor.
Genetic studies of Jews show a very high commonality between European Jews and Middle Eastern Jews, and that they are both closer to Kurds and Samaritans than anyone else.

Furthermore, the Jewish religion of today is not the Judaism of the Bible. It is a new religion which goes by the same name.
Please explain.

God only knows who are the biological descendants of Abraham today. There is no identifiable ethnic group which corresponds to the Old Testament Hebrews.
Have you completely missed genetic studies of Jews?
http://www.med.nyu.edu/genetics/research/jewish_origins.html
The Y-chromosome studies of Kohens across continents is rather conclusive.

210 posted on 02/22/2005 12:11:53 AM PST by rmlew (Copperheads and Peaceniks beware! Sedition is a crime.)
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To: SausageDog
I don't recall any biblical or oral tradition describing Jesus and Mary as ...ah, well, I can't even repeat it without propagating blasphemy.
Please do CITE it.

Whereas a study of the Old Testament could reasonably lead to belief in Jesus, the Talmud, which superceded the Torah a the Jewish guide to doctrine, placed an insurmountable barrier to that belief.
Essentually you believe that Biblical Judaism leads to Christianity and anything that does not is not Judaism.
That is circular and illogical. Moreover, the Muslims believe that same about Christianity being SUPERCEDED by Islam. You are not a true Christian, unless you are a Muslim. Convert to Islam, or get a better arguement.

What's this "Common Era" jazz? Are you being PC?
BC and AD are theological statements.

With the rejection of Jesus as the Messiah, all biblical prophecies pertaining to the suffering Messiah had to be interpreted away. In place of these teachings came the doctrine of the Messiah as a political and military conqueror.
You have it backwards. Why doi you think taht all of Jesus's followers initially expected Jesus to lead a revolt?
Why did a half dozen Jews Messianic claiments all lead revolts, before and after Jesus?
You really need to re-read Mathew.

Furthermore, with the permanent elimination of the Temple, the Jewish priesthood and sacrificial system disappeared. Judaism was reinvented as a system of ethics.
1. Various communities did continue sacrifices until recently.
2. The Talmud is a linear continuation of Pharassaic thought.

Israel is not going to give up her nukes. Furthermore, as long as Israel has the nuclear option, and the Arabs haven't, Israel will continue taking all the land she wants and killing all the Arabs she wants.
Israe doesn't want either.

That would be an interesting test. Abortion is legal in Israel but illegal in all Muslim countries. Israel's abortion rate is comparable to that of the US. It seems incongruous that Israel should squawk about Muslim atrocities while Israel kills far more of her own children than the Muslims kill.
Do you want to go over Aortion laws in "Christian" countries, including the US over the last 200 years?

211 posted on 02/22/2005 12:22:17 AM PST by rmlew (Copperheads and Peaceniks beware! Sedition is a crime.)
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To: noBush

ZOT


212 posted on 02/22/2005 12:23:02 AM PST by rmlew (Copperheads and Peaceniks beware! Sedition is a crime.)
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To: SausageDog

The terrorists didn't attack us for the reason that we are allies of Israel. They attacked us because of the nature of our nation and the spreading culture of America threatens their totalitarian way of life, religious or secular. They hate Israel for the same reason.


213 posted on 02/22/2005 2:02:30 AM PST by WaterDragon
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To: IAF ThunderPilot
IAF,

Here, let me give you a hand; maybe this is what you had in mind?


214 posted on 02/22/2005 8:45:18 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (tired of all the shucking and jiving)
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To: RaceBannon; SJackson; Salem; IAF ThunderPilot; Alouette; Yehuda; NYer

You are right on the money, RaceBannon. Good call!


215 posted on 02/22/2005 8:48:14 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (tired of all the shucking and jiving)
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To: Lysshua

Right you are!


216 posted on 02/22/2005 8:49:50 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (tired of all the shucking and jiving)
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To: Salem; NYer; Mark in the Old South

Interesting points - ping!


217 posted on 02/22/2005 8:52:35 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (tired of all the shucking and jiving)
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To: IAF ThunderPilot

I see that you didn't need any assistance from Virginia, after all! :)


218 posted on 02/22/2005 8:53:52 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (tired of all the shucking and jiving)
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To: judicial meanz; Salem; SJackson; NYer; Mark in the Old South; IAF ThunderPilot; Alouette; ...

"If the church replaced Israel, as you claim, how do you explain the fact Israel exists and has since 1948? By the logic of replacement theology, they should have just remained in the Diaspora forver."

Excellent point!


219 posted on 02/22/2005 8:57:18 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (tired of all the shucking and jiving)
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To: Convert from ECUSA

lol thanks :)


220 posted on 02/22/2005 9:18:49 AM PST by IAF ThunderPilot (The basic point of the Israel Defense Forces: -Israel cannot afford to lose a single war.)
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To: SausageDog
Sorry, but there is a civilization war. The MUSLIMS are our enemy.
PArticular Arab states have theoretically been allies far longer than Israel. However, the Saudis have been spreading Wahabbist propganda in the US. Make no mistake, they want to conquer us.
221 posted on 02/22/2005 9:43:12 AM PST by rmlew (Copperheads and Peaceniks beware! Sedition is a crime.)
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To: Convert from ECUSA; judicial meanz; Salem; SJackson; NYer; Mark in the Old South; ...
I will have to read more on this tomorrow when I have time, but the replacement theory has some holes. There is the little trouble of predictions of a Jewish conversion. As such it is not possible they are outside God's plan. In addition there is OT prophecy that is clearly a return to the Holy Land of ALL the tribes of Israel. Now How is this possible if the Jews are not part of the plan? The same is true if the Jews are correct and the Church is a false doctrine. Where is the 10 tribes not reflected in the current nation of Israel? Some point out there were some remnant that escaped the captivity of Israel and sought refuge in Juda. The problem is the prophecies continued.

I think the answer is in John the Baptist when he said "God could make sons of Abraham, Issac and Jacob out of these very rocks and stones" It seems with Simon Peter (which means rock) he did. The lost tribes may be the Catholic Church (spiritually) Their return can be accomplished with the move of just one man (the Pope). Perhaps the fulfillment will be accomplished when the Papacy moves to Jerusalem?
222 posted on 02/22/2005 12:30:02 PM PST by Mark in the Old South (Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us)
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To: Convert from ECUSA; judicial meanz; Salem; SJackson; NYer; Mark in the Old South; ...
I will have to read more on this tomorrow when I have time, but the replacement theory has some holes. There is the little trouble of predictions of a Jewish conversion. As such it is not possible they are outside God's plan. In addition there is OT prophecy that is clearly a return to the Holy Land of ALL the tribes of Israel. Now How is this possible if the Jews are not part of the plan? The same is true if the Jews are correct and the Church is a false doctrine. Where is the 10 tribes not reflected in the current nation of Israel? Some point out there were some remnant that escaped the captivity of Israel and sought refuge in Juda. The problem is the prophecies continued.

I think the answer is in John the Baptist when he said "God could make sons of Abraham, Issac and Jacob out of these very rocks and stones" It seems with Simon Peter (which means rock) he did. The lost tribes may be the Catholic Church (spiritually) Their return can be accomplished with the move of just one man (the Pope). Perhaps the fulfillment will be accomplished when the Papacy moves to Jerusalem?
223 posted on 02/22/2005 12:30:03 PM PST by Mark in the Old South (Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us)
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To: Mark in the Old South

Hi Mark!

This is just my opinion. There are people out there who are far better at interpretation than I am, but I'll give it a shot.

The Book of Hosea basically specifies how things are going to happen. Judah goes in to prepare the land ( Israel) and Ephraim ( the lost ten tribes) eventually gather into Israel.

I dont clearly identify any one Christian denomination as being the lost tribes of Israel. I think humans apply denominational labels, and some denominations are clearly in apostasy-big time.

I think G-d is a lot bigger than a denominational label and man-made traditions.

I do see a lot of people out there who worship G-d and identify with Israel very heavily in the gentile category, and they appear to be in every denominational category.

As for who the lost tribes are, I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

My opinion is this:

Christianity is designed to spread the word of G-d and bring it to the world ( some may disagree) and Judaism is the coporate knowledge. Although both disagree a lot, we fulfill seperate purposes. We worship the same G-d, and each side fulfills its task.

Rabbi Franz Rosenzweig probably put it best in his "Star of Redemption" manuscript.


224 posted on 02/22/2005 4:29:10 PM PST by judicial meanz
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To: rmlew

"You presume that a Temple cannot be rebuilt, even though it has occured before."

The Jews tried it under the auspice of Emperor Julian the Apostate. It didn't work.


225 posted on 02/23/2005 8:25:43 AM PST by SausageDog
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To: rmlew

"Please do CITE it."

Good grief, man. I'm not going to post that stuff. Here, you may post the quotations if you choose: Sanhedrin 106a,
footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, Sanhedrin 43a, Sanhedrin 107b, Sotah 47a, Shabbos 104b. The last four citations are from the Babylonian edition.

"Do you want to go over Abortion laws in 'Christian' countries, including the US over the last 200 years?"

It was not not my intention to claim that the so-called Christian countries are morally superior to Israel.


226 posted on 02/23/2005 8:35:13 AM PST by SausageDog
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To: judicial meanz
I am dreadfully ignorant of Jewish though on these matters, other than what is shared in the Old Testament. It would be interesting to hear from a Jewish Rabbi, preferably Orthodox or at least conservative.

As to the issue of Denominations I have to disagree. I am Catholic and must you see. It is more than just an obligation per the Church but my understanding of the Bible. When it comes to who has authority from Christ that is clearly spelled out in the Bible when Christ renamed Simon to Peter. Christ said he would build his Church on the rock and Peter means rock. He did not say he would build his church on the sons of Core (Korah). The rebellion of Core is more than a story of the Hebrews in the Wilderness, large numbers of the Psalms are dedicated to the sons of Core. The Psalms as you know were written long after Moses, Aaron and company. I think there must be some reason. Christ also warned what would happen if any teach a different doctrine, they would be given the lowest place in heaven.

People can differ about which faith is THE correct one but the notion that all are relative equal just does not stand up to Scripture. There are many Churches in apostasy, my old faith, Episcopal for one. The Catholic Church has more than it should in this regard as well. I do believe that was predicted in Scripture as well.

I doubt I will convince anyone here today but if you have access to a Bible search program, type in the word "rock" and see how often the passage can fit as a reference to Peter, either as a metaphor or as a prediction. My favorite is Moses striking the rock in the desert. The second time he hesitated and he was punished. The Rock has made the same mistake in our own day and will suffer as well.
227 posted on 02/23/2005 12:26:42 PM PST by Mark in the Old South (Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us)
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To: Mark in the Old South

Thanks for the reply Mark. I will respectfully agree to disagree with you on some matters, but I think you have a good head on your shoulders. We are all looking for truth these days.

I have two Orthodox sources for you, but please realize there is a lot of divergent opinions on the identity of the lost tribes, and individual sources are going to vary. These two sources put a lot of effort into identifying the two tribes, so I guess they have the best amount of information on the subject so far.

One source is Rabbi Feld from the Maccabee Institute in Israel. Link is here: http://www.maccabeeinstitute.org/

Brit-Am is also a good source: http://britam.org

Good luck!


228 posted on 02/23/2005 2:32:14 PM PST by judicial meanz
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To: IAF ThunderPilot

Love that photo! I receive a catalog that has shirts saying "Don't worry America, we (Israelies)are behind you!" Appropriate, No?


229 posted on 02/23/2005 6:00:14 PM PST by Lysshua (Justice, justice shall you pursue.......Deut. 16:20)
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To: RaceBannon

Thanks! Said wonderfully.


230 posted on 02/23/2005 6:04:14 PM PST by Lysshua (Justice, justice shall you pursue.......Deut. 16:20)
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To: Salem

Policy seems all to clear to me too. I think Bush's policy of attacking Al Qaeda while 'strongly encouraging' Israel to not only 'restrain from fighting back' but also 'reward them with land' is muddleheaded at best.


231 posted on 02/23/2005 6:18:17 PM PST by Lysshua (Justice, justice shall you pursue.......Deut. 16:20)
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To: judicial meanz

Thank you. I will check them out.


232 posted on 02/25/2005 10:17:10 AM PST by Mark in the Old South (Sister Lucia of Fatima pray for us)
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To: SausageDog
I would suggest that you read the following article.
http://talmud.faithweb.com/articles/jesus.html

Good grief, man. I'm not going to post that stuff. Here, you may post the quotations if you choose: Sanhedrin 106a,
Balaam is not Jesus.

Shabbath 104b... Shabbos 104b. The last four citations are from the Babylonian edition.
Shabbath 104b and Shabbos 104B are the same text. What the heck is your source?!
At any rate, Ben Stada is not Jesus. Ben Stada's father, Pappos Ben Yehudah was a contemporary of Rabbi Akiva 20 years after Jesus's death.

Sanhedrin 43a
Now Yeshu was not Jesus of Nazareth. I understand the mix-up, as both have the same given name. However, Yeshu was put to death under the reign of the Hasmonean King Alexander Janneus, approximatly 70 years before Jesus was born.

233 posted on 02/26/2005 11:07:41 PM PST by rmlew (Copperheads and Peaceniks beware! Sedition is a crime.)
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To: SausageDog
I wrote
"You presume that a Temple cannot be rebuilt, even though it has occured before."
SausageDog responded
The Jews tried it under the auspice of Emperor Julian the Apostate. It didn't work.
And the attempts to build a second Temple before Ezra and Nehemia also failed.
234 posted on 02/26/2005 11:10:55 PM PST by rmlew (Copperheads and Peaceniks beware! Sedition is a crime.)
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