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Retreat of Antarctic Ice Shelves Is Not New, Report Says
Associated Press ^ | February 24, 2005 | Sue Leeman

Posted on 02/24/2005 11:55:07 AM PST by Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit

LONDON — The current retreat of ice shelves in the Antarctic due to global warming is nothing new -- but this time the problem is manmade and therefore potentially more serious, according to research released Wednesday.

Writing in the latest issue of the journal "Geology," British scientists said a survey had shown that ice shelves had retreated thousands of years ago as a result of rising air and ocean temperatures.

"What this tells us is that ice shelves don't just break up because they get too big -- as the global warning skeptics argue," said Dominic Hodgson, a scientist with the British Antarctic Survey and one of the leading investigators.

He said previous periods of warming -- about 9,500 years ago and some 2,000 years to 4,000 years ago -- were caused by natural causes, including the ending of ice ages, rather than man's emissions and the ice shelves had been able to reform.

"This time, the problem is man-made and if we don't take steps, the damage will be worse," he said. "There is no room for complacency."

The study, by scientists from the universities of Durham, Edinburgh and from the British Antarctic Survey, or BAS, said the George VI Ice Shelf on the Antarctic Peninsula is the first to show that a currently 'healthy' ice shelf experienced an extensive retreat about 9,500 years ago, more than anything seen in recent years.

BAS scientists Carol Pudsey and Jeff Evans reported that the Prince Gustav Ice Shelf, which collapsed in 1995, had also collapsed several thousand years ago.

This, along with the recent collapse of other ice shelves like Larsen B, has been put down to an overall increase in temperatures caused by damage to the ozone layer that protects the earth from the sun.

The study is particularly relevant for other surveys on the West Antarctic Ice Sheet where scientists have found that a relatively warm current, Circumpolar Deep Water, is causing high melt rates on the underside of an ice shelf in Pine Island Bay.

The gradual removal of this ice shelf may be causing the glaciers inland to flow faster, which could lead to enhanced drainage of part of the West Antarctic Ice Sheet, and a rise in sea level.

The BAS says that over the past 900,000 years, there has been an average of 280 parts per million of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, one of the main causes of global warming. In the period since the Industrial Revolution, and particularly in recent years, that has risen to 350 parts per million.

The scientists analyzed sediments from the bottom of a freshwater lake close to the edge of the present George VI Ice Shelf. The results revealed that about 9,500 years ago the shelf retreated, allowing the sea to flood into the lake. The ice shelf didn't reform until 1,500 years later, and has been present ever since.

Ice shelves are formed when glaciers flow into the sea and freeze, then coalesce with other frozen flows.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: climatechange; glacier; globalwarming; iceshelf
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I know it makes me unpopular here, but I am convinced that humans are playing a role in climate change.

But, this article is makes me seriously rethink my understanidng of the situation.

Somehow, they are saying this all happened before, but pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

The risk is greater than the sacrifice, but what if the sacrifice is for naught. . . .

1 posted on 02/24/2005 11:55:16 AM PST by Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
"What this tells us is that ice shelves don't just break up because they get too big -- as the global warning skeptics argue," said Dominic Hodgson

A climatologist I'm not, but do you notice how the first thing they do now, always, is to address why the new data disproves skeptics? Remember when, a few years ago, most articles on the subject maintained there were no skeptics? If they're so sure of themselves, why does this seem so much like a rearguard action?

2 posted on 02/24/2005 12:00:54 PM PST by prion (Yes, as a matter of fact, I AM the spelling police)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit

Global Warming WILL change things around. We can kiss the boardwalk in Venice Ca. goodbye but then it will be a better world without it. Coastlines will change. Venice Italy is probably history. It won't be the end of the world. Alaska will be a much more inviting place. Change is good. It'll be fun.


3 posted on 02/24/2005 12:03:06 PM PST by mercy (20 years a Gates sucker was enough!)
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To: prion
why does this seem so much like a rearguard action

This is not a thread about homosexuality. At least I did not think it was.

4 posted on 02/24/2005 12:03:08 PM PST by Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit (If nothing will change your mind, yes you are an extremist.)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
I know it makes me unpopular here, but I am convinced that humans are playing a role in climate change.

And we know this how? The 'scientist' says because the hockey stick non-sense shows this. They assume the earth's tempreture had been constant then evil man came along and upset our perfect little equilibrium.

But, this article is makes me seriously rethink my understanidng of the situation.

I would hope so. Now the theory seems to be, well the earth was changing before, but now since man might be causing it, it is somehow much more dangerous. As if a 1 degree natural temperature increase is so much better than a man-made one. Scientifically, they offer no explaination for this assertion.

Somehow, they are saying this all happened before, but pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

Yep, and their curtain is no different than OZ's, just a bunch of smoke and mirrors. Easily manipulated computer models pretending to be science.

5 posted on 02/24/2005 12:03:40 PM PST by Always Right
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To: mercy

Of course as we see our shipping ports destroyed the Europeans will become vegetarians and the South Americans will become carniovres and the Asians will . . .(starve) but God bless America things won't change all that much unless some other countries start launching intercontinental missiles in their pursuit of resoures.

IT WILL BE FUN!


6 posted on 02/24/2005 12:05:24 PM PST by Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit (If nothing will change your mind, yes you are an extremist.)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit

Basically, the article says point blank that the "first" retreat had nothing to do with humans. I will make a fairly educated guess...that instead of talking of two episodes here...there might well have been over 100 episodes...and nothing can really be placed on the table to say that 100 percent of the problem is human-caused. We may yet have a relationship between the sun and earth...which might surprise a few educated folks. And that relationship, may not be a steady thing. Valleys and peaks may be part of a earth-sun relationship...and affect the glacer & ice shelves.


7 posted on 02/24/2005 12:05:57 PM PST by pepsionice
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
He said previous periods of warming -- about 9,500 years ago and some 2,000 years to 4,000 years ago -- were caused by natural causes, including the ending of ice ages

The end of the ice caused natural Global Warming or natural global warming caused an end of the ice age? Which is it prof?

8 posted on 02/24/2005 12:06:26 PM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Deadcheck the embeds first.)
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To: Always Right

I appreciate your deconstruction of my post rather than taking it as a whole. I guess there is a liberal somewhere in that body of yours.


9 posted on 02/24/2005 12:07:02 PM PST by Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit (If nothing will change your mind, yes you are an extremist.)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
This, along with the recent collapse of other ice shelves like Larsen B, has been put down to an overall increase in temperatures caused by damage to the ozone layer that protects the earth from the sun.

Okay, first, it was my understanding that the ozone layer issue did not have anything to do with global warming, but with protection from UV rays. Second: Man made? Proof? It happened before naturally and there's no documentation that I know of showing that this cycle - repeat, CYCLE - is any worse or even any different. This is more fearmongering over a system that is so complex we can neither completely understand nor hope to control it.

10 posted on 02/24/2005 12:07:37 PM PST by SlowBoat407 (Give Lebanon back to the Lebanese!)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
Five questions for you:

1. Is global warming occurring?

2. If global warming is occurring, is that bad?

3. If global warming is occurring and it is bad, are humans causing it?

4. If global warming is occurring and it is bad and humans are causing it, can something be done now to reverse it?

5. If global warming is occurring and it is bad and humans are causing it and something can be done now to reverse it, are the costs of stopping global warming outweighed by the costs of doing nothing?

If you can provide factual support that demonstrates that each of those questions can honestly be answered in the affirmative, then I will support a campaign to stop human-caused global warming.

11 posted on 02/24/2005 12:07:47 PM PST by vbmoneyspender
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To: mercy
Coastlines will change. Venice Italy is probably history.

Coastlines have always changed, mostly due to errosion. Venice is safe for a long time. For as much as they spew about the oceans rising, despite over 100 years of mans assult on the global climate with greenhouse gases, oceans have yet to rise one inch. Oceans are at the same levels they were 150 years ago. They have just asserted this claim so many times, people assume it is true.

12 posted on 02/24/2005 12:07:55 PM PST by Always Right
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
He said previous periods of warming -- about 9,500 years ago and some 2,000 years to 4,000 years ago -- were caused by natural causes, including the ending of ice ages, rather than man's emissions and the ice shelves had been able to reform.

How, then, can he now FLATLY state that today's occurences are IN FACT man-made? How does he or any scientist worth their salt know without a doubt that the cycle is not now returning to a point on the wheel where the earth naturally gets warmer? Precession of the poles and earth orbit fluctuation?.......

13 posted on 02/24/2005 12:08:41 PM PST by Red Badger (I call her GODZILLARY because she went to NYC and made her nest there, too.........)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit

Makes you wonder what happened 1000 years ago when the earth's average temperature was 6 degrees warmer than it is now.


14 posted on 02/24/2005 12:08:46 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
Writing in the latest issue of the journal "Geology," British scientists said a survey had shown that ice shelves had retreated thousands of years ago as a result of rising air and ocean temperatures.

If that's true, then how can they claim they are SURE this time, that the situation is caused by human activity?

15 posted on 02/24/2005 12:08:51 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: vbmoneyspender

I am going to steal this and use it elsewhere. I hope you think it is a compliment and are not offended.

If you are offended, then you are in the wrong place.


16 posted on 02/24/2005 12:09:33 PM PST by Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit (If nothing will change your mind, yes you are an extremist.)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit

When will these enviroweenies get it? The earth is a living system, it adjusts as needed.. and is constantly changing. Millions of years ago microorganisms took CO2 and converted it to Oxygen... so much so, that they eventually made the air so oxygen rich that they all but died out.. yet had they not existed and done this, large animal life as we know it today based on oxygen couldn't exist....

Chop down trees in the rain forests, tree growth goes bonkers in europe... its a system, it changes and evolves and is hardly in any way shape or form on the verge of a complete collapse.


17 posted on 02/24/2005 12:10:55 PM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
to plagiarize somebody else, plagiary is the sincerest form of flattery.
18 posted on 02/24/2005 12:11:20 PM PST by vbmoneyspender
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To: SlowBoat407

I never bought into the "ozone depletion by Freon" argument. Ozone layer is at the edge of the atmosphere and the Freon chloro-flourocarbon chemicals' molecules are heavier than air. How then does it get up there to destroy ozone? They have never really explained that to any satisfactory level........


19 posted on 02/24/2005 12:12:19 PM PST by Red Badger (I call her GODZILLARY because she went to NYC and made her nest there, too.........)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
I appreciate your deconstruction of my post rather than taking it as a whole. I guess there is a liberal somewhere in that body of yours.

Well, I would take this response as a whole, but it really makes little sense.

20 posted on 02/24/2005 12:12:40 PM PST by Always Right
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
Global Warming is BOGUS SCIENCE, agenda-ized/politicized and worthless, just like 90% of the Greenie-Nazi crap. Can't we at least agree on that much?
21 posted on 02/24/2005 12:15:44 PM PST by iopscusa (El Vaquero)
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To: Red Badger

I haven't either, to tell you the truth. The premise is that the UV rays' energy actually creates ozone by combining O2 and free oxygen into O3 (please, please keep me honest on this, folks). The CFCs suck up the free oxygen by combining with it, thereby robbing the outer layer of the atmosphere of the free oxygen needed to create the ozone and thereby suck the energy out of the UV rays.

Having said that, there is no connection between any supposed ozone layer effect and global warming. Two different issues.


22 posted on 02/24/2005 12:18:35 PM PST by SlowBoat407 (Give Lebanon back to the Lebanese!)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit

I'd recommend Michael Crichton's "State of Fear".


23 posted on 02/24/2005 12:18:50 PM PST by jimt
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To: farmfriend


24 posted on 02/24/2005 12:18:50 PM PST by Libertarianize the GOP (Make all taxes truly voluntary)
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To: iopscusa

If the earth was 6 degrees warmer 1000 years ago, shouldn't all of the antarctic ice have melted then? Is 1000 years long enough for it to refreeze? Was Manhattan Island completely under water?

If 6 degrees didn't melt the antarctic ice, why would anyone think a half degree of warming would melt it?

I think we're on the same page.


25 posted on 02/24/2005 12:19:43 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
Ice shelves are formed when glaciers flow into the sea and freeze,

Is is just me, or is this statement 180degrees out of whack?

26 posted on 02/24/2005 12:22:07 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: jimt
I'd recommend Michael Crichton's "State of Fear".

I heartily second that!

27 posted on 02/24/2005 12:22:35 PM PST by SlowBoat407 (Give Lebanon back to the Lebanese!)
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To: UCANSEE2

The envirowhacks are scrambling at this point. There is so much data contradicting their premises that they've switched from "Global Warming" to "Climate Change" as the big issue.


28 posted on 02/24/2005 12:24:33 PM PST by SlowBoat407 (Give Lebanon back to the Lebanese!)
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To: Always Right
Oceans are at the same levels they were 150 years ago.

It is the land masses, islands, etc. that have risen or sunk that give some the view that the ocean level is going up/down. Just look at the before and after maps of the recent Asian Tsunami disaster.

29 posted on 02/24/2005 12:25:24 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
I am so glad we have people like you who know not only the answers but all the right questions.

You know its proof how stupid most people are that you and those who think like you are not in charge.

<-/sarcasim>

I love you homepage, comrade

You do know people who think like you killed 100 MILLION of their own people last century.

Now what was the theme for the first 'earth-day'?????....I remember! THE COMMING MAN MADE ICEAGE!

idiots.....

30 posted on 02/24/2005 12:25:47 PM PST by glasseye
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To: Red Badger

Ozone is regenerated constantly by the interaction of the solar winds, and the electromagnetic forces at the poles, as well as lightning strikes worldwide, and the Viking Kitties.


31 posted on 02/24/2005 12:28:07 PM PST by UCANSEE2
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To: Lonesome in Massachussets
See this for another hypotheses:

PERSPECTIVES: RISING CO2 LEVELS - THE REASON WHY ~~The earth has a cycle

32 posted on 02/24/2005 12:28:16 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (This tagline no longer operative....floated away in the flood of 2005 ,)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit

"Retreat of Antarctic Ice Shelves Is Not New, Report Says"

I've heard of Italian ice but could it be that we have discovered "French ice"?


33 posted on 02/24/2005 12:29:58 PM PST by Gator101
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
It was caused by those big dinosaurs farting
34 posted on 02/24/2005 12:38:31 PM PST by Glacier Honey
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit

I note from reading Michael Crichton's new book, that global warming adherents often mention that the ice sheets are retreating in Antarctica. What they do not mention is that this is happening in only one relatively small area of Antarctica. Ice sheets in the rest of Antarctica, the vast majority of them are, in fact, advancing. So the question is: can we also blame the advancing ice sheets on mankind?


35 posted on 02/24/2005 12:38:56 PM PST by Sam Cree (Democrats are herd animals)
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To: Red Badger

Those heavy chloro-flouro-carbon molecules get to our outer atmosphere the same way those heavy ozone molecules do...

"Social" promotion


36 posted on 02/24/2005 12:40:41 PM PST by pfony1
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To: Glacier Honey

LOL!

I knew it! That's the same thing my wife says.


37 posted on 02/24/2005 12:55:50 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit

This article is a grab bag of bad science and bad statistic driven by an agenda. for example:

The ozone layer blocks UV, and is purported to be diminished by chloroflourocarbons. There's no linkage of ozone "depletion" to global temperatures is there?

The average atmospheric CO2 level for the last 900K years may be 280 ppm, but there have been large, cyclical variations with the maxima puntuated by ice ages.

As long as we're talking personal beliefs, it's mine that the Earth is doing what it's always done. The evidence points toward a future iceage. If man has done anything to hasten or delay the onset of climate change it's more akin to a fart in a hurricane than to one in church.


38 posted on 02/24/2005 1:00:27 PM PST by Jack of all Trades
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit; abbi_normal_2; Ace2U; adam_az; Alamo-Girl; Alas; alfons; alphadog; ...
Rights, farms, environment ping.
Let me know if you wish to be added or removed from this list.
I don't get offended if you want to be removed.
39 posted on 02/24/2005 1:09:56 PM PST by farmfriend ( Congratulations. You are everything we've come to expect from years of government training.)
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To: mercy
Alaska will be a much more inviting place.

Alaska will become a desert. It already would be a dusty desert except for the permafrost, and when the permafrost is gone the one foot a year of precipitation won't amount to much.

40 posted on 02/24/2005 1:14:43 PM PST by RightWhale (Please correct if cosmic balance requires.)
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To: farmfriend

BTT!!!!!


41 posted on 02/24/2005 1:29:21 PM PST by E.G.C.
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
The BAS says that over the past 900,000 years, there has been an average of 280 parts per million of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere, one of the main causes of global warming. In the period since the Industrial Revolution, and particularly in recent years, that has risen to 350 parts per million.

With some very simple research one can see that the warming and cooling of the earth is cyclic and the levels of carbon Dioxide we now have are actually minuscule to natural levels that existed in the past. In geologic time 900,000 years is statistically insignificant. Politically correct Science understands this and has scewed this fact. Going back to the Cretaceous period there were no Ice caps and the concentration of CO2 in the Atmosphere was 1000ppm.

http://www.igsb.uiowa.edu/inforsch/greenhse/grnhouse.htm

I found this information with about 5 minutes of research. Using science to promote politically corrupt ideas is wrong but very easy especially because of the dumbing down of modern society, so before you or anyone buys into these ideas do your own research...the truth is out there.

42 posted on 02/24/2005 1:39:41 PM PST by scottywr (The Dims new strategy..."If we lose enough elections, we'll get the sympathy vote.")
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To: RightWhale

If you would pull the Jetstream up your way, maybe you could get some of what we got......we have a rain gauge in the San Gabriel that shows since Oct of last year,receiving ,..... 92 inches, three major storms...unbelievable....


43 posted on 02/24/2005 1:40:58 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach (This tagline no longer operative....floated away in the flood of 2005 ,)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
Yes, global warmng is indeed the result of human activity. Well at least the activity of some humans.

Global warming is caused by government scientists in dire need of more grants.

44 posted on 02/24/2005 2:30:23 PM PST by hang 'em
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
"This time, the problem is man-made and if we don't take steps, the damage will be worse," he said. "There is no room for complacency."

I'm in a whole room full of complacency. Later, I'll be in my Pajamahedeen outfit too.

45 posted on 02/24/2005 3:46:25 PM PST by Uncle Miltie (Democrat Obstructionists will be Daschled!)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
"The BAS says that over the past 900,000 years, there has been an average of 280 parts per million of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere...In the period since the Industrial Revolution... that has risen to 350 parts per million."

Oh wow... that's a change from 0.0280% of the atmosphere to 0.0350%? I'm really worried now.

And why haven't global oxygen levels dropped?
46 posted on 02/24/2005 4:34:09 PM PST by Outland (Global warming: The hottest scam on the planet.)
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To: Ernest_at_the_Beach

Yes, but the air is too thin here to support the jetstream.


47 posted on 02/24/2005 4:38:37 PM PST by RightWhale (Please correct if cosmic balance requires.)
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To: mercy; Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
mercy said: "Venice Italy is probably history"

Oh? Venice Italy has been running dry lately. Scroll down to "Low Tide Again" at http://venetianblog.blogspot.com/
48 posted on 02/24/2005 4:42:50 PM PST by Outland (Global warming: The hottest scam on the planet.)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
"I know it makes me unpopular here, but I am convinced that humans are playing a role in climate change."

Adding up all the world so-called "greenhouse gases", please tell me how 0.040% of the atmosphere has enough heat capacity to influence the other 99.96%?
49 posted on 02/24/2005 4:44:50 PM PST by Outland (Global warming: The hottest scam on the planet.)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
I know it makes me unpopular here, but I am convinced that humans are playing a role in climate change.

No, but having your head up a dark place in your anatomy might limit your options a bit.

Did you even read your own post?

Antarctic ice shelves have retreated many times, most recently following "previous periods of warming -- about 9,500 years ago and some 2,000 years to 4,000 years ago."

Did you know that there was a "mini ice age" from 1200 to 1700 AD? Gee, I wonder what would happen after that? Maybe NATURAL global warming?

I am convinced

Good for you. I am convinced that you are a leftist stooge being paid by the Peoples Liberation Army to undermine America. We have 100% the same evidence backing up our conviction.

Your move, Adolf.

50 posted on 02/24/2005 4:52:49 PM PST by Phsstpok ("When you don't know where you are, but you don't care, you're not lost, you're exploring.")
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