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Surprising new study on Shroud of Turin
WND ^ | Feb 26, 2005 | Aaron Rench

Posted on 02/26/2005 8:43:02 PM PST by ETERNAL WARMING

Surprising new study on Shroud of Turin Simple technique could have been used to produce image

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: February 26, 2005 1:19 p.m. Eastern

By Aaron Rench © 2005 Assist News Service

MOSCOW, Idaho – The Shroud of Turin has long baffled scientists and scholars, Christians and skeptics for over seven centuries. The cloth bears a photonegative image of a man crucified and is thought by many to be the miraculously preserved burial cloth of Christ. Over the years, skeptics have been unable to convincingly demonstrate how any medieval forger could have produced such an image.

N.D. Wilson, a fellow of literature at New St. Andrews College in Moscow, Idaho, believes that he has done just that.

"The Shroud has always been particularly mysterious because the image is both three-dimensional and a photonegative," Wilson says. "Artists are simply not able to produce images like that on their own, and so many conclude the Shroud is an authentic relic of Christ's resurrection. What I've done is demonstrate how easy it could have been for a medieval to create a three-dimensional photonegative."

Wilson, who describes his experiment in an article published in Books and Culture, (March/April, 2005) as well as on his website, began his experiment by painting faces on glass. The painted panes of glass were then set on top of linen and left in the sun for various lengths of time. Dr. Scott Minnich, a microbiologist well-known in Intelligent Design circles, provided Wilson with scientific advice on structuring his experiment. Minnich was not expecting the results the experiment produced.

"The success of these experiments was a surprise to me," Minnich said. "And as Nate [Wilson] aptly concludes in his paper, it doesn't disprove the Shroud's authenticity. However, it does show an alternative hypothesis for its making that has not been considered to my knowledge. And I don't think he goes beyond the data in his interpretation."

Commenting on Wilson's lack of scientific credentials, Minnich said, "It is the irony of science that often someone out of the mainstream shoots an outside shot with such accuracy."

Though the images Wilson produced look remarkably similar to the Shroud of Turin, he does not believe he has proved the relic to be a fraud.

"I believe it to have been faked. But that's not something I can prove," he said. "What I have demonstrated is that in order to produce an image like the one on the Shroud, nothing more is required than the cloth itself, and a painting on glass. All things available to a medieval. A forger would have three-dimensionally encoded a photonegative onto cloth, without even being aware of the completeness of his art, or for how long he would be confusing the rest of us."

Antonio Lombatti, a fellow researcher of medieval church history at the Deputazione di Storia Patria in Parma, Italy, was quite interested in Wilson's findings.

"I am eager to examine his results under the microscope to check the chemical properties of his shroud. … What I really find interesting about Wilson's experiment is that his shroud has encoded 3D data even if it was not produced with a real face or a bas-relief."

Wilson said that his faith has surprised people: "I’m a Trinitarian Christian. I believe in the Resurrection and all that it means for this world. Either the Shroud is genuine or, as I believe, it is a lie about a great truth. I think Christians should want to see religious fraud exposed wherever we can find it."

Scientists from around the world have already begun requesting samples of Wilson's shrouds. When asked if he would distribute samples from his experiments, Wilson was unsure.

I haven't thought that far ahead."

One of Wilson's Shrouds, as it appears to the eye (left) and as it appears in photonegative (right)


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: shroudofturin
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To: ETERNAL WARMING

Yet another appeal to superstition posing as a basis for authority. Where's Art Bell and the 'I saw a UFO' infomercial crowd?


51 posted on 02/27/2005 1:22:34 AM PST by Havoc (Reagan was right and so was McKinley. Down with free trade. Hang the traitors high)
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To: spunkets
That paper cites McCrone. No one else was able to corroborate his claims. He lied and probably never even looked at the samples.

Believe what you want if it makes you feel better.

52 posted on 02/27/2005 1:57:51 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: maine-iac7
Have you kept up with the research that proves what many always thought

Science does not deal in "proofs".

- that the carbon dating tests claiming it to be a fake have been proven wrong - I wont bother going into why - you can read for yourself -

I've read it already. It's not conclusive, but enough questions have been raised that there ought to be new radiocarbon dating of other areas of the shroud just to settle the matter. But I'll bet you ten bucks that even if several samples from other areas return a date inconsistent with a "it's Christ's shroud" explanation, the shroudies will *still* find excuses to reject it and all other contrary evidence.

but I realize that anyone that does not want the Shroud to be authenic will never accept anything that refutes what they don't want to believe

That cuts both ways.

Also, there are hundreds of icons painted for churches and home shrines that are all of the same image - done before the 1300's - and oviously using the face in the Shroud ... [...] The Vignon marking, as they are known, all appear on the Shroud suggesting that it is the source of later pictures of Jesus.

EERRNNTT!! You're engaging in circular reasoning. It could equally suggest that the maker(s) of the shroud image copied the earlier works, rather than vice versa.

53 posted on 02/27/2005 2:02:51 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Richard Kimball
I've seen refutations of many of the points made in your post, particularly the claim that the shroud was painted.

Of course you have.

The web site referenced by the author of the article, American Humanist, is an interesting web site to say the least. It declares itself as staunchly opposed to a belief in the supernatural, and includes lauds to Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, Margaret Sanger Harris, Ted Turner, Faye Wattleton, Bill Baird, Oliver Stone, and assorted other people who can accurately be described as athiest nutballs.

So, of course, it *must* be wrong on scientific issues, right? Gosh, how could anyone argue with such unassailable logic. (Didn't anyone ever tell you that ad hominem is a fallacy?)

It's hardly an unbiased site.

Neither are the shroudie sites.

Thanks for playing, though.

You too.

54 posted on 02/27/2005 2:05:37 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Swordmaker
Why is it that these "debunkers" of the Shroud of Turin NEVER publish their findings in Peer Reviewed journals??? Could it be that it is that Schafersman relies heavily on Dr. Walter C. McCrone whose un-peer-reviewed work, published only in his own vanity press Journal The Microscopist, has NEVER been duplicated by any other researcher who DOES publish their results in peer-reviewed scientific journals? Could it be that his claims that Dr. Max Frie PLANTED the pollen grains has been disputed and DISPROVEN by other researchers, including Dr. Avinoam Danin, the world's foremost expert on the pollens found in Israel, who have ALSO found pollen from the Palestinian area on the Shroud on samples that Dr. Frei did not handle.

And why do shroudies SHOUT so MUCH?

A Maillard reaction seems more promising because of the presence of amines needed for a Maillard reaction. Of course, it didn't need to be Jesus; at least chemically. It could have been any recently deceased person. Ergo, NO paint! This alone discredits McCrone...

What have you been smoking? No it doesn't.

and by extension, Schafersman, who relies so heavily on discredited evidence.

Yes, *wave* those hands, the contrary evidence is sure to just blow away...

And who is Schafersman... his PhD is inGeology... and a geologist who really is not qualified to judge the results of scientists like Rogers, Adler, Heller, Gall, Cameron, et. al., WHO HAVE HAD THEIR WORK CRITIQUED IN PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC JOURNALS.

I have explained to you before your misunderstandings of the strengths and weaknesses of the peer-review process. And yet you continue to say "peer-review peer-review" in almost every sentence as if it's some sort of talisman guaranteeing validity. It most certainly is not. You just sound silly when you keep screaming it so much, as if it proves anything.

It is obvious to anyone who has research and read all the peer-reviewed scientific and scholarly work

...there you go again...

that has been done on the Shroud in the past 104 years, that Schafersman has NOT read it.

Sure looks to me like he has. And unlike a lot of the shroudies, he's familiar with both sides of the evidence and doesn't just ignore what he doesn't like.

He has an adgenda: "There is nothing here. Don't look. My mind is made up. Don't bother me with the facts."

Well if so, then he's got a lot in common with you folks.

Believe what you wish, you will anyway.

55 posted on 02/27/2005 2:23:14 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Swordmaker
Wilson's effort does have a slight 3D but it shows flattened mesas... In other words, it is a photograph, not a terrain map like the shroud.

The shroud's image is not a "terrain map".

56 posted on 02/27/2005 2:24:41 AM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Future Snake Eater

You beat us to it, particularly as to the bits of pollen.


57 posted on 02/27/2005 2:47:51 AM PST by AmericanVictory (Should we be more like them, or they like us?)
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To: Ichneumon
All empirical evidence and logical reasoning concerning the Shroud of Turin will lead any objective, rational person to the firm conclusion that the Shroud is an artifact created by an artist in the fourteenth-century.

Now I have nothing left to believe in. O you wicked man!

58 posted on 02/27/2005 3:38:49 AM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: Ichneumon
The shroud's image is not a "terrain map".

Yes, it is... it encodes the distance of the body to the shroud material. What appears to be shadow caused by lack of light is merely greater distance from the shroud. As the distance approaches about 4 cm, the image fades to nothing.

It is the encoding of the body to shroud distance as a gradient that makes it a terrain map instead of a photograph. There are no light artifacts on the shroud.

59 posted on 02/27/2005 3:47:30 AM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Ichneumon; shroudie; NYer; spunkets; maine-iac7
What have you been smoking? No it doesn't.

Yes, it does discredit him. McCrone makes a scientific claim that the image on the Shroud is painted... with Red Ochre Tempera paint. He claims the fibers are "coated with paint," that it is everywhere he looked. But ever other scientists who looks at the exact same fibers samples that McCrone looked at, both using McCrone's beloved microscope and many far more sophisticated physics based instruments, find no paint. No paint coating. No significant Red Ochre. No significant Vermilion. There is no red ochre or vermilion sufficient to be visible anywhere on the shroud... and what little there is randomly distributed in image and non-image areas equally, consistent with environmental contamination. The image has been proved to not be painted. McCrone's findings are not believable... thay cannot be given credit. Yet McCrone still continued to make the claims despite lack of any verification. That discredits McCrone himself.

McCrone says the blood is vermilion paint. World renowned experts on blood and blood products say bull pucky to McCrone and provide their tests and results. They publish according to the rules of good science. There findings have been vetted by other experts in the field of blood. Their conclusion is that the blood stains are blood... human blood.

On one hand, we have Walter C. McCrone... microscopist who claims that his eyes can determine that that stain is merely vermilion paint... on the other hand we have dozens other scientists whose specialty is blood, who have used dozens of tests, none of which found paint, but everyone of which was positive for blood and blood remnants... and whose results were checked by other scientists who know what they are doing. Who do we believe. Certainly not McCrone. Again, McCrone's findings have been found unbelievable... and again McCrone continues to trumpet his answer is the only answer. And again that unwillingness to participate in the scientific method discredits McCrone.

McCrone refused peer-review... none of the other have refused it. No one can duplicated McCrone's findings... therefore it is not science.

You follow McCrone and his outdated microscope. I'll follow the science.

Let me say it once again: Just because McCrone says it was painted, unless his work is confirmed by others, it is just his unsupported opinion. When it directly refuted by scientists who are far more expert on their subjects, say like blood and blood products, who's work has been vetted by other scientists in the same fields and found sound, you do not take the non-experts findings as fact. Since there are no pigments, and no paint on the Shroud, McCrone's claims that there are (with no one else claiming it) are discredited. Period. When others look at the samples McCrone claims prove his point and fail to see what he claims is there, his conclusions become delusion.

Why do I put stress on certain words? Because you don't seem to understand without the stress.

You have claimed that you have explained the shortcomings of peer-review to me. You made some wrong assertions in an earlier post that peer-review merely meant the article "got past an editor" and only then would other scientists look at the work. That is untrue.

You seem think that non-peer-reviewed "science" is equal to peer-reviewed... it isn't. You think that work by non-scientists such as Joe Nickell is comparable to objective science, it is not.

Peer review means that other scientists who work in the field that is being used to test a theory have examined the methods and science, the statistical analysis of the findings, checking to assured that the conclusions are logically derived (they may be wrong, but they are not merely jumped to without evidence). All of this occurs prior to as well as after publishing. Before an article can be published in a peer-reviewed journal, other scientists selected by the editors are sent the article and supporting evidence for their examination and critiques. Objections are raised, errors pointed out, corrections are made. Many times the whole thing falls apart under the scrutiny it receives. Most importantly, it allows other scientists to try the same experiments to see if they get the same results.

McCrone submitted two "research paprers" to committee for peer-review. When he didn't like the critiques he was receiving... from scientists who could not even find what he claimed was "obvious", he refused to allow his work to be peer-reviewed. One peer-review committee wrote to McCrone:

"“In short, your data is misrepresented, your observations are highly questionable, and your conclusions are pontifications rather than scientific logic . . .

McCrone's response? He pulled his paper out of the peer-review process. Despite a signed agreement that he would only publish after peer-review and that all announcements of findings would be handled at the project level, McCrone held a press conference to announce his findings "that the Shroud was beautiful medieval painting". And then he published in his own vanity press magazine, where he could say what he wanted without peer-review, also in violation of that agreement. That makes his science no good... and it makes McCrone unethical.

Sure looks to me like he has. And unlike a lot of the shroudies, he's familiar with both sides of the evidence and doesn't just ignore what he doesn't like.

No, when he only accepts McCrone's unverified findings, he ignores 25 years of other research that IS verified. He ignores everything that is contrary to what he wants it to be. He says "Ah, but McCrone proved..." and that is his trump card to everything. McCrone... delusional and unethical McCrone. That is cherry picking his data... just as you do. You refuse any research that does not fit your world view... regardless of the standing and expertise of the person doing the research. In McCrone's world and obviously Schaferman's, only McCrone's little polarized light microscope can solve this riddle... just ignore the far more sophisticated tests that prove McCrone wrong... over and over again.

Your ad hominem referal to those scientists interested in this research as "shroudies" is merely designed to denigrate their work. You come into these topics and use rhetorical questions like "What are you smoking?" and comments like "...there you go again..." or "believe what you want if it makes you feel better" to further marginalize anyone who fails to recognize your world view. Schafersman goes so far as to slander and libel the late Max Frei, snidely implying that Frei "doctored" the samples and perpetrated scientific fraud, with no proof other than his "feelings" that the evidence "was too good to be true", to further his agenda. That is reprehensible.

60 posted on 02/27/2005 5:11:22 AM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: hineybona

Yes and repaired too.


61 posted on 02/27/2005 7:03:44 AM PST by Jaded (My sheeple, my sheeple....)
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To: ETERNAL WARMING

Interesting. Does not prove a thing but it does get his name in the news.


62 posted on 02/27/2005 7:08:52 AM PST by Dustbunny (The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist)
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To: Swordmaker

Thanks for the ping!


63 posted on 02/27/2005 7:57:08 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Ichneumon
" Believe what you want if it makes you feel better."

I don't remember the exact Journals. One was "Microscopy", there were some others. I hit the articles paging though what hit my desk. The reports indicated that no one who had examined the cloth beleived his results. The folks at the lab at Los Alamos involved said McCrone's claim was totally off. Other's findings said something very different from McCrone.

McCrone's work reminds me of the "Kuru" work from New Guinea.

64 posted on 02/27/2005 9:32:31 AM PST by spunkets
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To: Ichneumon; Swordmaker
"However, a number of investigators21 have documented the fact that the Shroud image is NOT a true photographic negative but only an apparent one--a faux-photographic negative. As with a true negative, light features such as skin are dark on it and light on the positive and shadows are light on it and dark on the positive. Unlike a true photographic negative, however, dark features like the beard, mustache, hair, and blood are dark on it and light on the positive. So unless Jesus was blond or white-haired and his blood was white, the Shroud image cannot be a true photographic negative." Schafersman

"The first linen image created by Beauchamp's window, exposed for ten days generally parallel to the sun's path. The linen bears a negative image, dark on light (left), which becomes positive, light on dark (right), in a true photonegative." N.D. Wilson

You see any problems here?

65 posted on 02/27/2005 6:57:26 PM PST by jwalsh07
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To: jwalsh07
You see any problems here?

Not really.

Schafersman's claim that the Shroud is a "faux-photographic-negative" is true... but not for the reasons he claims relating to the color of the hair, etc.

You see, the shroud image is NOT a photograph... there are no light artifacts. What we perceive as shadow on the shroud are not... the image disapates with distance from the shroud. The shroud image is much more akin to a "terrain map" or a "contour map" where the body-to-shroud distance is "mapped" onto the shroud in by "pixel" density... the closer to the shroud the body part is, the denser the pixelization.

At a distance of about 4 centimeters, the pixelization fades into background noise (it is still there but very faint) and can only be seen under enhancement. One of the strangest properties of the image is that it is collimated only vertically.

66 posted on 02/27/2005 10:45:37 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Ichneumon
sorry. Could you please try this one?

IMG SCR=http://image20.webshots.com/21/7/45/91/237974591gUgMvi_ph.jpg

What am I doing wrong to post this?

67 posted on 02/28/2005 5:13:47 AM PST by eccentric (a.k.a. baldwidow)
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To: Al Simmons
Now perhaps he can explain the pollen evidence and the amazing "coincidence" of the same blood type being on both the Mandylion ("Shroud") and the Sudarium (Head cloth of Christ - which is documented to have arrived in Spain ahead of the Mohammedan invasion of North Africa in the 700s, after having been in Alexandria for the previous 700 years.)

And the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano. Type AB, which occurs in 3% of the population.

Sudarium of Oviedo

68 posted on 02/28/2005 5:14:24 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: reasonmclucus
Also why go to so much trouble, when he could likely have produced a believable fake by means more commonly used during the period.

Because he wanted to fool scientists 700 years in the future who had discovered the embedded 3D information with a NASA terrain analyzer.

69 posted on 02/28/2005 5:18:38 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Swordmaker
Right, I understand that but Wilson is claiming his technique yields a "true photonegative" which necessarily rules his technique OUT.

Schaefersman would agree with me on that.

70 posted on 02/28/2005 5:26:33 AM PST by jwalsh07
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To: Ichneumon; Future Snake Eater; Kirkwood; Arthur McGowan; Al Simmons; Oblongata; jwalsh07; ...
Hey! Did I get it?

This is an artist's depiction of the man pictured on the Shroud of Turin before any beatings and crucifiction.

71 posted on 02/28/2005 5:28:05 AM PST by eccentric (a.k.a. baldwidow)
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To: Ichneumon
The shroud's image is not a "terrain map".

The embedded 3D terrain map was discovered when some scientists passed a copy of the image through a NASA VP-8 terrain analyzer in the mid-70s.

72 posted on 02/28/2005 6:11:06 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: CurlyDave

The glass would have to be flat to do this. If the shroud was forged using glass, it would have to have been done well after 1250AD, then. This supports forgery, except for the fact the shroud is not composed of paint type pigment!


73 posted on 02/28/2005 6:16:03 AM PST by shubi (Peace through superior firepower.)
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To: Swordmaker
Why is it that these "debunkers" of the Shroud of Turin NEVER publish their findings in Peer Reviewed journals???
Perhaps they tried but their papers were rejected?
74 posted on 02/28/2005 7:48:23 AM PST by eastsider
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To: ETERNAL WARMING
The image of JESUS was created by the power of HIS resurrection....plain and simple. OUR LORD left an imprint of HIMSELF for all to see. ;o)

The secular world has for yrs tried to cast doubt on the who of JESUS....without success. ;o)

75 posted on 02/28/2005 7:57:13 AM PST by shield (The Greatest Scientific Discoveries of the Century Reveal God!!!! by Dr. H. Ross, Astrophysicist)
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To: eastsider
Perhaps they tried but their papers were rejected?

That is true in at last one case... Walter C. McCrone... two of his papers were rejected because his findings could not be duplicated by any other researcher even using the same equipment and same samples. It was concluded that he found what he wanted to find... not what was there.

In others, such as Schafersman, they were never submitted and instead were papers published in magazines such as The Skeptical Inquirer which have a definite bias or in non-peer-reviewed journals such as McCrone's The Microscope.

76 posted on 02/28/2005 8:04:49 AM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Ichneumon
You are wrong. The Shroud's image is, intentionally or not, a terrain map. Any good terrain plotting software package will do fine for demonstrating this: Bryce, POVRay, etc. Simply plot a moving average of the image density in all directions as an elevation to see this. It works each and every time. Now try this with any other typical drawing or photograph.

Here is an example of a terrain map and the image plotted from it:

Here is another one:

Dan

77 posted on 02/28/2005 12:35:52 PM PST by shroudie (http://www.shroudstory.com)
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To: Richard Kimball; Swordmaker; Michael_Michaelangelo; Ichneumon
Richard,

I, like you, hold no opinion one way or the other about the authenticity of the Shroud, itself, but the Shafersman article evidences the same sloppy and careless bilge that passes for "science" in most evolutionarilly-premised commentary characterized as it is by similar demonstrations of such pedestrian intellect.

Shafersman is too busy trying to be cute, smarmy, and contemptuous to even get the entire history of the artifact correct. His atheistic/agnostic underpinnings render useless his ability to think as a forensic scientist. Not only that though, as so often is the case, along comes the agnostic/atheistic evolutionary acolyte pasting pap like this into this FR thread as though it is evidence for anything more that sloppy forensics. The weaknesses in his position are many and as noted by many in other postings to this thread, his position has been soundly refuted.

Shafersman openly demonstrates his own dismal understanding of what constitutes valid, scientifically based forensic technique as it pertains to radiocarbon dating. He failed to obtain the readily available, published history of the Shroud. Had Shafersman’s research not been so lazy to start with he would have known that the Shroud was exposed to a significant fire in the building where the Shroud was kept in year 1532. Such an exposure only results in skewed, un-interpretatable data in the context of radiocarbon dating.

The blind fealty the guy pays to radiocarbon dating --- as do most evolutionists to this technique --- reveals the most gaping flaw in the technique itself and the inability of such testing to accurately estimate the age of anything older than maybe a few hundred years. The point is this: atmospheric and other physical conditions in which the sample resides must have remained essentially unchanged since the time the sample was generated in order for radiocarbon dating to have any level of accuracy.

Clearly in the case of the Shroud, radiometric carbon dating is useless. Shafersman’s and his sycophant’s intent, I suspect has more to do with their desire to cast doubt upon the fact of Christ’s resurrection, whether or not the event in anyway is evidenced by the Shroud.

Sadly, their rabid atheism/agnosticism colors their collective abilities to think scientifically. An evo will believe what he wants to believe and make up anything about a fossil he cares to, to promote his career or merely his intellectual, and most often godless self-satisfaction.

Witness the recent shame brought upon the gullible evo community when one of their own (von Zieten) perpetrated yet another evolutionary phony missing link fraud upon his bretheren. The “fossil” still stunk of morbid decay and was more obviously dated to no more than 250 years old, yet his supposed radiocarbon dating had placed the age of the “fossil” conveniently right where he needed it to be to fit his premise. Didn't stop the initial endorsements of the hallowed "peer-reviewed," process though did it? Of course, not, because it validated what they wanted to believe about von Zeiten's work. Peer review didn't expose him, however. von Zieten's fossil theft did.

von Zeiten's casual temptation to bias supposedly radio-metrically derived results without having them objectively questioned by the antropological community is likely the same cover that Shafersman believes his position enjoys. If anything can be said about the "peer-review" process, it has little to do with objective critique of evidence presented to support the position, so long as the evolution-speak dogma is sufficiently parroted.

So much for the value of radiometric dating --– of the Shroud --- or of anything else for that matter. Scientifically, it is a patently worthless dating technique.

78 posted on 02/28/2005 4:07:06 PM PST by Agamemnon
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To: Agamemnon; Richard Kimball; Swordmaker; Michael_Michaelangelo; PatrickHenry
Shafersman openly demonstrates his own dismal understanding of what constitutes valid, scientifically based forensic technique as it pertains to radiocarbon dating. He failed to obtain the readily available, published history of the Shroud. Had Shafersman’s research not been so lazy to start with he would have known that the Shroud was exposed to a significant fire in the building where the Shroud was kept in year 1532. Such an exposure only results in skewed, un-interpretatable data in the context of radiocarbon dating.

Actually, you're the one who is operating under a gross misunderstanding. Being exposed to a "signficant fire" would have minimal impact on on a radiocarbon date. Heat or fire itself is no impediment to radiocarbon dating, and charcoal left after a campfire or forestfire is still suitable for radiocarbon dating. Nor would soot or other kind of carbon contamination be a significant factor, because the amount of contamination necessary to significantly alter the radiocarbon date of a sample would be on the order of as much soot as original material -- something that could not possibly go unnoticed. Shafersman undoubtedly knows this, even though you don't. Thus your frantic attack on Shafersman's "failure" falls on its face. Care to try again?

But just for giggles, please expand upon and support your claim that: "Such an exposure only results in skewed, un-interpretatable data in the context of radiocarbon dating." Explain the exact mechanism by which a fire allegedly "results in skewed, un-interpretatable data" for radiocarbon dating, and run some numbers for us on the exact amount of error which would be introduced thereby (including volumetric analysis of the temperatures and/or chemicals involved and their effect on radiocarbon assays). We'll wait. I mean, since you're such a self-appointed expert on this topic, you won't have any problem actually analyzing this for us dolts with the science degrees, to show us where we've made our "mistakes" on this topic for so many decades.

The blind fealty the guy pays to radiocarbon dating --- as do most evolutionists to this technique --- reveals

...reveals a working knowledge of the *vast* amount of research and verification of this very reliable dating method which has been conducted over more than half a century, resulting in a well-founded trust in its accuracy and reliability. Quite frankly, only a fool or a scientific ignoramus could say something as wildly inaccurate as, well, what you go on to say:

the most gaping flaw in the technique itself and the inability of such testing to accurately estimate the age of anything older than maybe a few hundred years.

Quite simply, nonsense. The accuracy of radiocarbon dating when compared against samples of known age (up to tens of thousands of years) has been validated literally millions of times over, as well as its cross-validation by its close match to the results of other types of independent dating methods. How are you unaware of this? And with your striking lack of knowledge, how on Earth do you feel qualified to "lecture" scientists on this matter?

The point is this: atmospheric and other physical conditions in which the sample resides must have remained essentially unchanged since the time the sample was generated in order for radiocarbon dating to have any level of accuracy.

Complete twaddle. But you keep on believing whatever you like. Here's a cookie. Now run and play with your friends.

Clearly in the case of the Shroud, radiometric carbon dating is useless.

Stamp your feet and hold your breath until you turn blue too -- that's also a popular method of attempting to deny reality. And it's more dramatic than your empty and false declaration above.

Shafersman’s and his sycophant’s intent, I suspect has more to do with their desire to cast doubt upon the fact of Christ’s resurrection, whether or not the event in anyway is evidenced by the Shroud.

Ah, yes, it's the *conspiracy*! (Cue ominous music.)

Sadly, their rabid atheism/agnosticism colors their collective abilities to think scientifically.

Oh. Then what's *your* excuse for your falsehoods about radiocarbon dating?

Look, if your bigotry causes you to (mis)label any evolutionist (or any scientist who accepts any well-established scientific position which clashes with what you'd prefer to believe) as an "atheist", and then dismiss any such position simply because it comes from a (presumed) "atheist" (because you're certain that they're all deceitful devils, right?), then maybe you can calm down and listen for a change and finally learn something about this subject when it comes from avowed Christians: Radiometric Dating: A Christian Perspective .

An evo will believe what he wants to believe and make up anything about a fossil he cares to, to promote his career or merely his intellectual, and most often godless self-satisfaction.

ROFL! You sound like a fundamentalist parody from "The Onion". Are you for real?

And how does your little conspiracy theory account for the fact that the majority of American "evo's" are actually *CHRISTIAN*? Sorry if I made your head explode.

So much for the value of radiometric dating --– of the Shroud --- or of anything else for that matter. Scientifically, it is a patently worthless dating technique.

Why, just because you say so? *snort*

Tell me, from what grossly unreliable source did you get your "knowledge" of radiocarbon dating? If I were you, I'd ask for my money back.

Look, believe whatever you wish about the shroud, but if you don't want to bear false witness and misinform others, as well as give critics of FreeRepublic reasons to reinforce the negative stereotype of conservatives as unschooled anti-scientific thumpers, I'm going to have to ask you to either actually learn some science before you spew another great load of nonsense about it, or at least become aware of just how much you don't know about a topic and temper your "pronouncements" accordingly.

And wherever you've been getting your "information", you need to be aware that it's as inaccurate and unreliable as a Michael Moore movie. Please seek out more accurate sources.

79 posted on 02/28/2005 7:02:15 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Agamemnon
... he would have known that the Shroud was exposed to a significant fire in the building where the Shroud was kept in year 1532. Such an exposure only results in skewed, un-interpretatable data in the context of radiocarbon dating.

While I agree with your assessment of Schafersman's paper, the fire of 1532 had very little to do with the spurious C-14 dating done in 1988. Any fire that may leave soot with a different provenance of the carbon in the original article would have little effect on the dating unless the soot far outweighed the original material... to sway the dating of the shroud from a putative 1st Century to a 13th Century date, soot from the 1532 fire would have to represent about 60% of the tested sample. This simply was not the case.

The Quality and Accuracy of the C-14 tests and the Sampling Error

As a matter of fact, the quality of the tests was first rate and returned accurate dates... for what they tested. What the AMS C14 method tested was a set of four sub-samples cut from a single sample cut from a corner of the shroud that had been previously repaired... both visibly and invisibly. The sample taker avoided taking the obvious repair, but unfortunately cut the primary sample from an area that had been rewoven in the 16th Century. The resultant sample was therefore a mixture of original shroud material contaminated by newer linen skillfully rewoven to "restore" an area damaged from handling. Looking at the C-14 master sample before it was cut into five sub-samples for test, with the bottom of the sample being the edge of the shroud, the left hand side is "newer" linen of a patch, while the right hand side is the original linen of the shroud. Between the two sides is an area of interwoven old and new threads... the junction of the two materials where the reweaving was done. This junction runs at a slight diagonal of right to left from the bottom of the sample with the bottom having about an approximate 60% - 40% patch to shroud ratio and the top having just the opposite, an approximate 40% - 60% patch to shroud ratio.

This master sample was cut crosswise into five approximately equal sub-samples. Four of these, the two on each end, were distributed to the various C14 labs. The Arizona Lab got the two end pieces... the ones with the greatest ratio discrepencies... while the Oxford and Zurich labs got one piece each, and the middle piece was retained for future reference. This distribution of the sub-samples is important because it explains a major "red-flag" that should have been noticed by the controlling organization when the test results were returned.

The Red Flag

The "red-flag" was that the four tested samples reported FOUR distinct date ranges that combined spanned 180 years. Remember that the Arizona lab got the sub-samples from either end of the master sample, the ones with the most extreme mixtures either way. The one with the ~60%-40% patch to shroud ratio returned a date of 1397 CE (+/-30 years) while the sub-patch with the opposite mix (40-60) came up with a date of 1257 CE (+/-30 years). Note that even at the extreme range of either sample, the other does not overlap the degree of confidence. In other words, the youngest reported sub-sample could have originated in 1367 but the oldest sub-sample could have originated in 1287... and BOTH were cut from the same master sample that SHOULD report exactly the same date if it were homogenous! IF this dating were correct and accurate, then we have to believe that one end of a three inch sample was woven with linen that was at least 80 years older than the other end. That is mightly slow weaving.

The other two labs that got one sub-sample each... a sub-sample that was cut from either side of the retained center sub-sample. These apparently had linen mixture ratios of approximately 45% - 55% and 55% - 45% new to old respectively... and the reported dates are proportionally distributed between the extreme dates from the Arizona lab and show a correlation to the approximate material mixtures.

What is seldom reported is that the labs cut their sub-samples crosswise into four sub-sub-samples... and these sub-sub-samples ALSO demostrate the changes in dating. The farther away from the original edge... and the more original material included in each sample, the OLDER the reported date.

If the original sample had been homogenous, composed of linen that was grown, cut, spun, retted, and woven at the same time, the reported dates would have been much closer together (within the degree of confidence of each). As it is, the likely hood that the sample IS homogenous when statistically analysed is calculated to be only 13 in 1000.

Examination and Comparison of the Raes samples taken from the same area.

An earlier sample was taken from the same area as the 1988 C14 sample... now called the Raes Sample, threads of which are available for scientific study. Cut from the area immediately to the left of and adjacent to the 1988 sample, the Raes sample is now considered to be 100% patch linen. The Raes sample threads have been demonstrated to not be chemically identical to the main body threads. They are however consistent with the left hand portion of the 1988 sample.

Physical Examination of the remaining 1988 Sub-sample

An examination of the remaining middle sub-sample demonstrates the angled juncture of old to new... chemical tests of either side of the junction demonstrate that they are NOT THE SAME... microphotographic evidence shows the "patched" side has a Z twist while the unpatched original material has an S twist... average thread sizes are slightly smaller on the patch side compared to the shroud side... the patch has been dyed, the original has not... the retting processes have left different residues on the two sides.

Calculation of possible age of the original material?

So, exactly how old is the orginal material, assuming an origination date of approximately 1530 - 1560 for the repair/restoration linen? A C14 technician, using the observed ratios, calculated the original material had to be 1st century +/- 100 years for the observed contamination of 16th century material to report a 13 -14th century provenance.

AS you can see, we do not have to postulate any bioplastic coating, invading carbon soot from a fire, magical transformation of the isotopic content of the linen from exposure to miraculous events, or even large numbers of bacteria living and excreting on the shroud, to explain the spurious C14 dating. It all is explicable when we KNOW the sample was flawed... and it was flawed because the "scientists" who took the sample decided to ignore the recommended protocol.

There IS some blame to be attached to the three C14 labs because the agreed and abandoned protocol required that the samples should have been chemically tested before being destroyed in the C14 test. They were not. Had the test been done, the non-homogeneity of the samples would have been apparent before they were tested and the sampling error discovered.

80 posted on 02/28/2005 7:03:47 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: shroudie
You are wrong. The Shroud's image is, intentionally or not, a terrain map.

I see... Well if it's a "terrain map", then how do you explain the fact that your "terrain map" shows that the guy in the shroud image has what look like crab eyestalks prominently jutting out from his eyeballs where his pupils should be?

Hint: It's not actually a terrain map, but flat images recognizable as representations of 3D objects (like a human face, for example) will of necessity contain data that can give a reasonable facsimile of a 3D shape when processed appropriately. However, certain aspects of the flat image (like dark pupils in a light eyeball) will give spurious 3D "data" and break the illusion of an actual "terrain map".

81 posted on 02/28/2005 7:09:57 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Swordmaker
Is there any action underway to eventually date a sample (or even better, widely separated multiple samples) of the shroud which is indisputably "original"?

Or if not, what's standing in the way of such tests?

82 posted on 02/28/2005 7:13:14 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon
One of the biggest obstacles is the reluctance of the church to allow destructive testing of the shroud. The earliest possible date for it is 1300s, which means it is a minimum of 700 some odd years old. Obviously, the caretaking of the shroud is very important to the people who possess it. Hopefully, non-destructive tests will be discovered that can accurately date it. I do understand the reluctance of the possessors to allow multiple destructive tests to take place would eventually remove significant parts of it.

Part of the history of the shroud falls more into an area where I have a little bit of knowledge, and that's artistic restoration. Prior to approximately the 1930's restoring work meant making it look like new. For this reason, after the fire, etc, when restoration work was done, the restorers attempted to make the shroud look new. Historical accuracy was not one of their concerns, and, of course, they could not have known that future examiners would look at weaving techniques and use some unknown at the time dating system. If the shroud got frayed, it was repaired.

Much of the second half of the twentieth century restorers have been removing the "restoring" of greek and roman statues. It used to be common practice to restore arms, legs, etc., with no regard for what the original looked like. Later restorers removed the repairs. This left many statues without heads or arms, but all the remaining work is now work done by the original artist (think about Ted Turner "fixing" movies like Casablanca by colorizing them).

This is one area where I think some of the scientific researchers have honestly moved into an area where they have less expertise. I don't think they are deliberately trying to mislead, but I do think there are several issues for them, and I think it colors their judgement.

First, many of the researchers assume that the shroud is a fake, and therefore look for those results. Second, finding a date of 1st century AD could be extremely embarassing for them. One of the common tenants of science today, for many, is that it rejects any possibility of the supernatural. Therefore, a naturalistic explanation MUST be found. Third, as I mentioned earlier, several of the researchers were undoubtedly not familiar with medieval restoration techniques, and discounting of these techniques could easily lead even a non-biased researcher to look at restored areas and assume they are part of the original.

That was the point of my original post. If the shroud is fake, it is a fake produced by wrapping the object around a three dimensional item. The glass technique suggested in the original article assumes three dimensional knowledge by a painter that simply did not exist in the 1300s, and use of photographic negative techniques that didn't exist until the early 1800s.

One area I've never seen explored is whether the wrapping technique used was the one commonly used by Jews of the first century, and also whether the cloth making technique was one used during the first century. While not conclusive, these examinations should be non-destructive.

The concept of historical accuracy did not become common until approximately one generation after the invention of the camera. That's why, for examply, you see Renassiance paintings of Jewish slaves dressed like fourteenth century Italian court ladies and Roman guards dressed like fifteenth century French militamen. People simply didn't think in terms of historical accuracy. They assumed everyone had always done things pretty much the way they had.

I've never seen much data on this aspect of the shroud, and I think it could be extremely enlightening.

83 posted on 02/28/2005 9:14:27 PM PST by Richard Kimball (It was a joke. You know, humor. Like the funny kind. Only different.)
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To: Ichneumon
Is there any action underway to eventually date a sample (or even better, widely separated multiple samples) of the shroud which is indisputably "original"?

The STURP members (although STURP itself has been disbanded) have made repeated requests to the Catholic Church to allow further Carbon 14 testing. Permission is not forthcoming. Some have been informed the church is waiting for more refinements in the procedure. Since the first request for a C14 test, the amount of material needing to be destroyed has decreased from over two square feet to just a few square centimeters. The church may be waiting for the requirement to be reduced even further before allowing testing.

Or if not, what's standing in the way of such tests?

Permission from the Shroud's owner... the Pope.

It might interest you that an unauthorized C14 test of a thread extracted from the Shroud before the STURP study (STURP's permission to have access to the Shroud precluded any destructive testing) was performed without permission. The thread was taken from the same area as the Raes and 1988 samples. The thread in question ran horizontally across both the Raes and 1988 sample locations before they were cut from the Shroud.

The interesting thing is that this thread was cut into two pieces and both were tested... one half reported an age of 1000 years (+/-75 years)... the other half reported an age of 1700 years (same degree of confidence). No record was kept of which end was which or the orientation of the thread in situ. I suspect that the younger half included a large percentage of "patch" while the other only a small amount. The large (150 year) spread of each date is because the thread was much smaller than what would normally be tested to get a higher degree of confidence.

84 posted on 02/28/2005 11:21:54 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Ichneumon
Well if it's a "terrain map", then how do you explain the fact that your "terrain map" shows that the guy in the shroud image has what look like crab eyestalks prominently jutting out from his eyeballs where his pupils should be?

We don't have to explain it because it doesn't have "crab eyestalks prominently jutting out". It is well known that the image on the shroud shows that something has been placed on the eyes, probably to keep the eyelids closed.

First Century Jewish burial practices included such an object... sometimes a potsherd, other times a small coin. Some Shroud researchers claim that under enhancement the object on the right eyelid is a Pontius Pilate Lituus Lepton, minted from AD 29 to AD 32. Others claim what is seen is on the same order as finding bunny rabbits in clouds because of the low resolution and the high noise factor from the weave of the linen.

After publication of the enhanced photographs showing the purported coin's inscription, it was noted that there appeared to be a misspelling in the Latin inscription (CAI instead of the expected UKAI)... this was immediately jumped on as proof of an error by the medieval forger by shroud debunkers. However, AFTER the publication of the photos with the misspelling, six Pontius Pilate Leptons of known provenance have been unearthed with the exact same misspelling.

My position is that I have seen the coin on some enhanced photographs... and not seen it on others. It may be an artifact of the enhancement, although the circumstantial evidence of the identification of a misspelled word that is later shown to be accurate to a very rare version of the coin might lead some credibility to the claim.

Some recent enhancement workers have proposed that the less clear object on the left eyelid is a Julia Lepton, minted only in AD 29 to honor Tiberius Ceasar's wife Juia. They claim 73 points of congruence.

85 posted on 02/28/2005 11:43:34 PM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Richard Kimball
One area I've never seen explored is whether the wrapping technique used was the one commonly used by Jews of the first century, and also whether the cloth making technique was one used during the first century. While not conclusive, these examinations should be non-destructive.

This has been researched and the answer is that they did indeed shroud their dead in such a manner... although usually not with such a fine cloth. Most shroud material was an inexpensive one over one weave. The Shroud is a three over one herringbone twill weave. The threads are handspun. Such a cloth could have taken a master weaver several weeks to produce.

In answer to your question about the technique being used in the 1st Century:

Recently, Mechthild Flury Lemberg, a former curator of the Abegg Foundation textile museum in Switzerland and a leading authority on historic textiles, has found a strong similarity between the Shroud's fabric and fragments of cloth produced in the Middle East about 2,000 years ago. Lemberg has likened stitching on both hems of the Shroud and on a lengthy seam down one side to that on cloth found in the ruins of Masada. Masada was a Jewish stronghold overlooking the Dead Sea and Jordan. The Masada fabrics have been dated at between 40 BCE and 73 CE.

It should be noted that Madam Flury Lemberg was also the moving force behind the ill advised 2002 shroud restoration that removed all the charred portions, ironed it, removed the patches placed on the Shroud by the Nuns of Poor Clare in the 14th Century, and replaced the Holland cloth backing. The purported reason for the restoration was the erroneous theory that the charred areas were still expanding under some kind of oxidation. Her work on "restoring" the Shroud was done under less than scientific methods... she handled the shroud with bare hands, used weights to stretch wrinkles out, trimmed charred areas with scissors and scraped others, power vacuumed the shroud and steam cleaned some soiled areas. Most other researchers were horrified. The wrinkles, soil, and chars were part of the Shroud's history and should have been retained.

86 posted on 03/01/2005 12:03:46 AM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Swordmaker

Juia = Julia...

Sheesh.


87 posted on 03/01/2005 12:05:57 AM PST by Swordmaker (Tagline now open, please ring bell.)
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To: Ichneumon
Look, believe whatever you wish about the shroud, but if you don't want to bear false witness and misinform others, as well as give critics of FreeRepublic reasons to reinforce the negative stereotype of conservatives as unschooled anti-scientific thumpers, I'm going to have to ask you to either actually learn some science before you spew another great load of nonsense about it, or at least become aware of just how much you don't know about a topic and temper your "pronouncements" accordingly.

Oh you horrible man! How dare you bring verifiable information about the real world into this discussion? Why must you always be so rational? Are you part of some kind of conspiracy of sane people? Why can't you and your ilk just leave the Shroudies alone? You're a big ol' meanie!

88 posted on 03/01/2005 2:55:23 AM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: Ichneumon

While it may be true the fire did not affect the C14 dating. It is true that the sample may have been faulty.

It is not clear that the fibers removed for sampling were all from the original cloth.


89 posted on 03/01/2005 4:07:58 AM PST by shubi (Peace through superior firepower.)
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To: PatrickHenry

While the figure on the shroud may not be Christ. I don't know of any other image like this on a shroud. Also, there are aspects of the shroud that appear authentic.

The location of the nail holes and other aspects of the figure do not conform to the knowledge of most artists at the time. If there were nail holes in the palms, it would have been conclusive the shroud was a fraud.

You can't dismiss the shroud as a forgery, yet.


90 posted on 03/01/2005 4:11:29 AM PST by shubi (Peace through superior firepower.)
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To: shubi

Exactly!


91 posted on 03/01/2005 7:36:06 AM PST by shroudie (http://www.shroudstory.com)
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