Are we fools led by liars? (THE EU CONSTITUTION EXPLAINED)

The Times ^ | February 28, 2005 | William Rees-Mogg

[Maceman]

I can not believe that so few people have even bothered to read something that is so important to their futures.

There is a method to the madness of the EU constitution "framers."

By making the document 511 pages of bureaucratic gobbledygook, they have guaranteed that the voters will not read it and therefore will not be in a position to argue against it.

[limitedgov]

I am reminded of the differences between the American and
French Revolutions.

American: Life, Liberty, Property (changed to
Pursuit of Happiness (by Hollywood or DisneyWorld?)

French: Liberty, Fraternity, Equality.

Life is an inalienable right, but what the hell is Fraternity? (Multiculturalism, sensitivity training, PC,
anti-nationalism)

Liberty is what you as an individual make of it.

Property: We in the US know exactly what that is...
All of eastern Europe knows what equality means...
Socialism!

I suspect the European Union will be established along the French lines.

[bozot]

This is a marketing ploy, not a constitution.

Very true...

After a long marketing study and research... They find that is the product they can sell in Europe for the Europeans.

The era of nation-states are over. Small or medium size countries can not dream "independece" and "soverginity"... Together they can have more power than the sum of their weight separatley.

They building it for over 50 years slowly and steadily. The new members always queing and so far all of them happy with Ukraine and Turkey in the line too... (Ok... Britain trying to sit on two horses with one arse and always complaining...)

I am sure that if it were not the Iraq war disagreement, there woud not be so much EU bashing from the western side of the Atlantic....

I know the steam need to be let out...

But be honest... A collapsed EU would make a great dent on the US economy. Can you afford the loss of a market of almost half a milliard people with their high tech demands ?

[chainsaw]

Ivan, to hope is noble, but if you want something done, or in this case not done, you have to get out and fight for it. Inform the European bloggers about what this constitution really means , or doesn't mean, and let them inform the masses.

[John Jorsett]

Their constitution is something like 511 pages. Clearly the product of a committee. It might keep them out of trouble, though, since they'll be busy litigating its meaning until the universe implodes.

[sodpoodle]

I realized that already - posted my concerns several months ago.

Clinton was asleep at the wheel - he should have made persuasive overtures to Blair on the realignment of Nato, the Eastern bloc, Middle East, India, Pakistan and Russia/China - but he had other more important things to do.

He obviously was no student of history ala Newt.
sp

[Archon of the East]

I have not read this document in its entirety but it sure seems a bit ambiguous, which is not good for something that is suppose to, well at least should define laws and principles in some concrete terms. It seems to me that it simply allows for interpretations and changes that can sway with whims and passions of the moment, again not a good thing. However given the history of Communism/socialism/progressivism from Marx to the Frankfurt school to what is going on today in Europe, Canada and the American Left it is really not that surprising. The major trouble as I see it is that it appears most people in Europe actually do want this ultimate central authority telling them what is the appropriate behavior. I am hopeful that I am wrong and this will not pass.

[sgtbono2002]

>>>>>>Article 15a: “The constitution . . . shall have primacy over the law of the member states.” <<<<<<<<

I cant imagine any country giving up all their laws and sovereignty to any Union such as this.

It took a Civil war in America to steal States Rights.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

“What is the problem for which the European Union is the solution?”

A good question.

[Harmless Teddy Bear]

American: Life, Liberty, Property (changed to Pursuit of Happiness (by Hollywood or DisneyWorld?)

By Jefferson.

[Hudobna]

Ciao MadIvan,

Lots of money + lots of confusion + no accountability = lots of corruption.

You're lucky. In the UK you're debating the fine points. Here in Italy, as was the case in Spain, acceptance is a foregone concusion. The only issue that saw the light was whether or not to mention Europe's Christian heritage in the preamble.

For psychological reasons, (love of your own history and traditions and resultant - sacrosanct - unwillingness to lose a cuticle of soverignty, important Colonial past, Commonwealth, special relationship with America) but above all because of your different, Common Law legal system, I wonder if UK even belongs in the Union.

That's not for me to say, but if I were the Grand Controller, I'd demand 2/3ds approval of any state before entry, because what's really missing in the equation is genuine popular enthusiasm.

With interest, love, enthusiasm, excitement, goodwill, the problems resulting from a somewhat necessarily hodgepodged constitution can all be hammered out.

I say necessarily hodgepodged because this isn't like smoothing out the differences between Connecticut and Virginia, this is bonding atavistic enemies;

It's almost as difficult as making Beelzebub swim in a pool of Holy Water; uniting Italians who could use training from Ugandans on how wait on line at the Post office with the regimented Finns; making the Dutch who have harlots in the windows and Hashhish shops get along with the still somewhat Ancient Greeks;

Every single country in Europe loves the other and loves to hate the other with almost equal intensity. And the reasons for that wonderful mixture of love and contempt are real and resonating.

I remember when French Vintners were spilling truckloads of cheap Southern Italian wine; the French throwing eggs back at the Belgians. I know I'm a spaghetti-fressing charlatan for the Germans, the only people on earth who seem to actually enjoy bad moods. The Slovaks in central Slovakia despise the Hungarians (paradoxically those on the Hungarian border don't!); the Brits following their soccer teams destroy foreign cities. But in all this how can one not love Great Britain, Finnland, Slovakia, Hungary, Italy, Germany. And I mean really like them?

It's a fine mess.

For me it is unacceptable even at the moment that UK (and also Sweden) are part of Europe for the simple reason that they refuse the Euro. I have no idea why that was allowed. Either you're in the poker game or you're out. That's my mentality. And there's nothing wrong with either stance. The Norwegians and the Swiss aren't in and they're doing fine via bilateral agreements.

Anyway, all that Europe has going for it is a bureau-technocratic form of Manifest Destiny and so given this present spirit, or rather lack of spirit, the British view of just a mere Free Trade zone is the most realistic and all that Europe really deserves. Countries mustn't lose sovereignty to feed some fatalistic blob. If they're gonna marry it'd better be love. Some kind of zeal where one is truly convinced that the whole is greater than the sum of its components.

Without the Schuhmans, Adenaurs and De Gasperis, without the students rushing to raise the barriers the original Common Market wouldn't have been possible. Yes after the war, Germans and French kids did that and they hugged each other with tears in their eyes saying: BASTA! Ca SUFFI! GENUG! And that worked.

Without similar leaders and similar GENUINE forms of enthusiasm, it's premature to move beyond.

In other words, I feel that Europe is taking a step longer than her legs.

It's also unfair to the new entrants such as Hungary, Slovakia, Czech Rep. etc. who haven't had enough time to express their societies after release from the Soviet yoke.

So that's my position. While actually criticizing UK for her selfish "me me me" attitude, I agree with her, because at least she's honest and upfront, whereas most of the other countries are now that way in their hearts, worried only about immediate gain... no vision, no real glue.

[Sonny M]

There is a question that has been asked, but which no one wants to answer.

What if a nation in the EU decides it wants out?

Can a nation in the EU secede?

What will happen when one nation tries?

[ncpatriot]

Read on a FR thread this morning that the EU Constitution is 511 pages. If true, Wow!

[hosepipe]

[ “What is the problem for which the European Union is the solution?” ]

The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism.- Karl Marx

[FlipWilson]

Exactly, France and Germany are seeking to do (control Europe) by treaty what they could not otherwise do by force of arms or economic might.

[JeffersonRepublic.com]

“But be honest... A collapsed EU would make a great dent on the US economy. Can you afford the loss of a market of almost half a milliard people with their high tech demands?”

I think we will lose more “market share” with France and Germany in control of EU imports. We have already seen it in airline manufacturing. I remember reading about France pressuring EU hopefuls NOT to buy Boeing jets. Also, if you look at the recent WTO history, you will see the EU trying to cut off American export to European countries that were not following France’s advice – nothing American.

Holtz
JeffersonRepublic.com

[topfile]

Does the EU plan to have a Military? I mean
a Armed Force, in common uniform, common identity,
and able to impose its will on member states and the
world?

If not, than it's just a lot of hogwash.

[GeronL]

when does Poland vote?

[Live free or die]

Bump

[rockrr]

It's a fine mess.

I wish y'all well (I get the sense that you're gonna need it ;'}