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Grounded: Millionaire John Gilmore stays close to home while making a point about privacy
Pittsburgh Post-Gazette ^ | Sunday, February 27, 2005 | Dennis Roddy

Posted on 02/27/2005 6:43:24 PM PST by zeugma

Grounded: Millionaire John Gilmore stays close to home while making a point about privacy

He's unable to travel because he refuses to present a government-approved ID

Sunday, February 27, 2005

By Dennis Roddy, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

SAN FRANCISCO -- John Gilmore's splendid isolation began July 4, 2002, when, with defiance aforethought, he strolled to the Southwest Airlines counter at Oakland Airport and presented his ticket.

Dennis Roddy, Post-Gazette
John Gilmore, beside a graffiti-covered wall, has his morning coffee at a shop that's one block from his San Francisco home. The Bradford native doesn't drive and has other travel restrictions, thanks to his challenge of a law that the government won't allow him to see.
Click photo for larger image.

The gate agent asked for his ID.

Gilmore asked her why.

It is the law, she said.

Gilmore asked to see the law.

Nobody could produce a copy. To date, nobody has. The regulation that mandates ID at airports is "Sensitive Security Information." The law, as it turns out, is unavailable for inspection.

What started out as a weekend trip to Washington became a crawl through the courts in search of an answer to Gilmore's question: Why?

In post 9/11 America, asking "Why?" when someone from an airline asks for identification can start some interesting arguments. Gilmore, who learned to argue on the debate team in his hometown of Bradford, McKean County, has started an argument that, should it reach its intended target, the U.S. Supreme Court, would turn the rules of national security on end, reach deep into the tug-of-war between private rights and public safety, and play havoc with the Department of Homeland Security.

At the heart of Gilmore's stubbornness is the worry about the thin line between safety and tyranny.

"Are they just basically saying we just can't travel without identity papers? If that's true, then I'd rather see us go through a real debate that says we want to introduce required identity papers in our society rather than trying to legislate it through the back door through regulations that say there's not any other way to get around," Gilmore said. "Basically what they want is a show of obedience."

Dennis Roddy, Post-Gazette
There's no place like home for John Gilmore, who can't travel very far from his San Francisco residence. The Bradford native refuses to give his identification for flying.
Click photo for larger image.

As happens to the disobedient, Gilmore is grounded. He is rich -- he estimates his net worth at $30 million -- and cannot fly inside the United States. Nor can he ride Amtrak, rent a room at most major hotels, or easily clear security in the courthouses where his case, Gilmore v. Ashcroft, is to be heard. In a time when more and more people and places demand some form of government-issued identification, John Gilmore offers only his 49-year-old face: a study in stringy hair, high forehead, wire-rimmed glasses, Ho Chi Minh beard and the contrariness for which the dot.com culture is renowned.

"I think of myself as being under regional arrest," he said. Even with $30 million in the bank, regional arrest can be hard. He takes the bus to and from events at which he is applauded by less well-heeled computer techies who flew in from around the country after showing a boarding pass and one form of government-issued photo ID and arrived in rental cars that required a valid driver's license and one major credit card.

He was employee No. 5 at Sun Microsystems, which made Unix, the free software of the Web, the world standard. He japed the government by cracking its premier security code. He campaigned to keep the software that runs the Internet free of charge. After he left Sun, Gilmore started his own firm, sold it for more money than he seems to have bothered to count and has since devoted his time to giving it away to favored causes: drug law reform, a campaign to standardize computer voting machines and the Electronic Frontier Foundation, something of an ACLU for the Information Age.

To some, Gilmore's argument is redolent of the conspiracy theories from the black helicopter crowd.

"That's the problem. How it sounds," Gilmore said. He waved his hands like some Cassandra: "They have all these secret laws! The UFOs are coming! They have guards at every airport!" Yes, he said, there is a certain odd flavor to the notion that someone shouldn't have to show ID to board a plane, but with magnetometers at the gates, guards with security wands, fortified cockpit doors and sky marshals abounding, Gilmore is asking just how much citizens are giving up when they hand their driver's licenses to a third party, in this case an airline, where it is put into a database they cannot see, to meet a law that, as it turns out, they are not allowed to read.

Gilmore will show ID for an international flight because he doesn't expect to set the rules for other nations.

"I will show a passport to travel internationally. I'm not willing to show a passport to travel in my own country," Gilmore said. "I used to laugh at countries that had internal passports. And it's happened here and people don't even seem to know about it."

From geek to riches

The passage of John Gilmore from a bespectacled proto-nerd from Bradford, Pa., to the twice-wealthy privacy-rights pioneer of the dot.com West Coast started in his father's living room, where he first suspected authority is used simply because someone has it.

When something was found broken or spilled or some other evidence of a fractured rule surfaced, and the guilty party unknown, the elder Gilmore would summon his four children to the living room.

"He'd line us all up in the living room. Until one of us confessed, we wouldn't get to leave. Eventually one of my younger brothers started confessing to things he didn't do just so we could get out of there," Gilmore said.

Gilmore's father was a mechanical engineer. John was born in York and the family moved to Bradford, near the state's northern border with New York, when he was small. Today, at his home in Haight-Ashbury, a place he named Toad Hall, after the character from "The Wind in the Willows," Gilmore keeps a small school photo. It shows him with a little-boy crew cut and thick, half-rim eyeglasses, the kind that have been in and out of fashion twice since the photo was taken in the mid-1960s.

The young Gilmore was a strong student at the schools in Bradford. He took to math. In high school, he became curious about computers. The 1960s were an era in which computers enjoyed an almost mystical reputation; imputed by popular culture with the power to deduce anything. One year, a team of scientists entered data for the 1927 New York Yankees and the 1963 Los Angeles Dodgers to see who would win -- an early "computer match." Babe Ruth was even credited with a home run.

It was easy for a bright boy to become curious about how something so all-knowing worked.

"When he was 12, for his birthday, he asked for an IBM manual," said his mother, Pat Woodruff, who remarried after she and Gilmore's father divorced 20 years ago and returned to live in Bradford. "His floor used to be littered with papers. I had no idea what he was doing."

The University of Pittsburgh opened a branch campus in a building across the street from his high school. In it, they placed a desk-sized IBM 360. Gilmore started wandering over to learn FORTRAN, the punch-card programming language that made the computer do complex mathematical calculations.

The Pitt-Bradford library had a few computer books, and one of his high school teachers got John a card.

The family was about to move to Alabama when John began writing to the company that printed up a $3 manual for computer use. The firm, Scientific Time Sharing Corp., in Bethesda, Md., rented out computer time to companies such as Arbitron and ABC News, which needed storage for vast databases.

After the third or fourth correspondence, they wrote back to ask if he was a customer. Gilmore wrote back that he was a high school student and he was moving to Alabama.

After completing high school in Alabama, Gilmore had two summer internships behind him and a full-time job as the youngest geek in Bethesda.

He had a few dollars in his pocket and a letter of acceptance from Michigan State University. He used the money. The letter was of little use. Computer science had not yet come into its own as an academic discipline.

"Why pay someone to teach me computers when I can get someone to pay me to learn them?" he reasoned.

Road trip

When techies burn out, they tend not to do strange things. They are, by nature, already a few degrees off plumb. So they revert to the ordinary. Gilmore burned out in the late '70s. He got on a motorcycle and rode west.

"He just packed up his stuff and moved off," Pat Woodruff said. "I don't know where he went at this time."

He went to New Mexico. Gilmore worked for a while in the lowest of mechanical technologies: a traveling carnival. He ran the Tilt-A-Whirl.

"You have to watch the thing closely and know when someone's going to lose it, so you move back," he said.

Dodging stomach contents kept him employed for a while. At one point he moved in with New Mexico's most dysfunctional couple. The male in the relationship found out the female was pregnant. An argument broke out. A gun was produced. Gilmore forgot his lesson from the Tilt-A-Whirl. He didn't duck. A bullet caught him in the hand. He finished his New Mexico stay sleeping under a stairwell at the local college.

He knocked around the country a bit more. Staying with a relative in Jacksonville, Fla., Gilmore looked for a job at a local bank. "They said they wouldn't hire me as a teller, but they'd be glad to hire me to run their computer," he said.

Eventually, Gilmore moved to San Francisco and took up computer consulting. One day, a friend called. He'd gone to work for a startup firm called Microsoft. The company's founder, a Harvard dropout named Bill Gates, was selling Unix, a universal software on which the Internet would be based, and he wanted Gilmore to find a way to make Unix work on the computers of a prospective customer based at Stanford University. After a job interview, Gilmore called the people at Stanford. They were starting a company to be called Sun, short for Stanford University Network, and would Gilmore like to be their first software employee.

"I hired on at Sun because the work was interesting," he said. The pay was just short of marginal.

Thus did John Gilmore get rich by accident. Because he was on the ground floor, his stock was worth more. Sun went public in 1986 and suddenly John Gilmore was rich. He stayed on at Sun as a consultant until 1989, then started his own company, Cygnus. A few years later, when he sold Cygnus, he was, in the parlance of Silicon Valley, "loaded." That is to say he is not ridiculously rich -- just wealthy enough to make trouble.

He did.

Gilmore, for instance, is blocked from most e-mail servers because he runs what the industry calls an "open relay" on his computer server, tucked into the basement of his house. People are able to send e-mail through it without identifying themselves, raising the ire of the anti-spam movement.

His server sits next to the remnants of what is known in the industry as the "DES Cracker." It is a collection of computer chips, connected by a spider web of circuitry that he built to overpower the most widely used encryption system -- the same one used on ATMs and satellite dishes.

"The government was recommending everybody use it. We did that to show it wasn't worth relying on," Gilmore said. His own theory was that a privacy program offered by the government isn't, by nature, likely to remain private.

By 1996, Gilmore's dislike of authority was in full bloom. At San Francisco Airport, he refused to produce a driver's license for security police.

"The cop said, 'You want me to arrest you?' I said, 'I'd consider it an honor.' " They honored him with an arrest. The district attorney dropped the case.

Gilmore has epilepsy, and because of that his driver's license was suspended five years ago. He decided not to reapply because it is now easier, when asked for a photo ID, to be able to say forthrightly that he has none.

More than $1 million of his money has gone to house and feed the Electronic Frontier Foundation. On a given day, visitors can find a team of lawyers meeting with young men and women, still pale from too much time indoors, seeking counsel to protect them from the wrath of everyone from the Recording Industry Association of America, which is trying to shut down music file sharers, to federal regulators worried about the latest software for encrypting e-mail communications.

"He cares a great deal about privacy," said Lee Tien, a full-time litigator at EEF. Because privacy is one of those things that disappears without always being noticed right away, Tien and other EFF lawyers find themselves fighting regulations nobody gets excited about right away.

"Privacy discourse ends up being at one end, 'What have you got to hide?' vs. 'Mind your own business,' " Tien said.

"If John Gilmore were a country," adds his personal publicist, Bill Scannell, "his motto would be 'Let Me Alone.' "

Conscious objection

Rosa Parks did not ride that bus in Montgomery by accident. Several strategy meetings preceded the famous ride in which the founding mother of the civil rights movement boarded a bus and declined to sit in the back.

Gilmore's famous visit to two airline ticket counters in the Bay Area was charted out. He checked in with his lawyer. He kept notes. He booked a flight from Oakland, with its slightly cheaper fares, to Washington, D.C., where he planned to drop in on the offices of his member of congress, U.S. Rep. Nancy Pelosi, D-San Francisco, to convey his growing concern about the amount of data the government is gathering from and about its citizens.

His reason for travel, he would later say, was "to petition the government for redress." That added First Amendment issues to a Constitutional exercise that would also turn on the amendments against unreasonable search and seizure and the right to assemble and petition the government for redress of grievances.

Everything went pretty much according to expectations. That is to say, everything went to hell in a hurry.

As Gilmore tells it, he arrived at the gate two hours early, a paper ticket purchased through a travel agent in his hand. A Southwest agent asked for his ID. Gilmore, in turn, asked her if the ID requirement was an airline rule or a government rule. She didn't seem to know. Gilmore argued that if nobody could show him the law, he wasn't showing them an ID.

They reached a strange agreement for an argument about personal privacy: In lieu of showing ID, Gilmore would consent to an extra-close search, putting up with a pat-down in order to keep his personal identity to himself. He was wanded, patted down and sent along.

As Gilmore headed up the boarding ramp a security guard yanked him from line. According to court papers, a security agent named Reggie Wauls informed Gilmore he would not be flying that day.

"He said, 'I didn't let you fly because you said you had an ID and wouldn't show it,' " Gilmore said. "I asked, 'Does that mean if I'd left it at home I'd be on the plane?' He said, 'I didn't say that.' "

The Gilmore case is, if anything, about things unsaid. Gilmore -- and millions of other people -- are daily instructed to produce some manner of ID: a driver's license, a Social Security number, a phone number, date of birth. When Gilmore asked to see the rules explaining why his photo ID is necessary for airline security, his request was denied. The regulation under which the Transportation Safety Administration, an arm of the Department of Homeland Security, instructs the airlines to collect such identification is classified as "Sensitive Security Information."

When Congress passes a law, it is as often as not up to some agency to decide what that law means and how to enforce it. Usually, those regulations are available for people to examine, even challenge if they conflict with the Constitution.

This wasn't the case when Congress passed the Air Transportation Security Act of 1974. The Department of Transportation was instructed to hold close information that would "constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy" or "reveal trade secrets" or "be detrimental to the safety of persons traveling in air transportation."

The Federal Aviation Administration, then a branch of the transportation department, drew up regulations that established the category now known as Sensitive Security Information.

When the responsibility for air travel safety was transferred to the newly created Transportation Safety Administration, which was in turn made a branch of the new Department of Homeland Security, the oversight for Sensitive Security Information went with it. The language in the Homeland Security Act was broadened, subtly but unmistakably, where SSI was concerned.

It could not be divulged if it would "be detrimental to the security of transportation."

"By removing any reference to persons or passengers, Congress has significantly broadened the scope of SSI authority," wrote Todd B. Tatelman, an attorney for the Congressional Research Office. Tatelman was asked by Congress last year to look at the implications of Gilmore's case.

Tatelman's report found that the broadened language essentially put a cocoon of secrecy around 16 categories of information, such as security programs, security directives, security measures, security screening information "and a general category consisting of 'other information.' "

The government has been so unyielding on disclosure that men with the name David Nelson suddenly found themselves ejected from flights. Somewhere in the system, the name came up on the newly created "No Fly" list. Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., found himself in the same dilemma. When baggage screeners were caught pilfering, prosecutions were dropped because a trial would require a discussion of "Sensitive Security Information."

When John Gilmore demanded proof that the airport ID rule met Constitutional muster, the government at first declined to acknowledge it even existed.

Ann Davis, a spokeswoman for TSA, tacitly acknowledged the strange rabbit hole into which Gilmore has fallen. The Department of Justice, in its first response to Gilmore's suit two years ago, declined to acknowledge whether such an instruction existed. Later, it admitted its existence. Then the government asked a judge to hold a hearing in secret and preclude Gilmore's lawyers from seeing the regulation they sought to challenge, the contents of which seem to be pretty widely known.

"It's a rubber stamp. TSA security directives are -- plural -- sensitive security information and not subject to public disclosure," Davis said.

How, then, is someone to challenge in court a law he's not allowed to see?

"I have no idea," Davis said. "If a passenger doesn't wish to show ID prior to getting a boarding pass, that's something they're going to have to take up with the air carrier. And the air carrier is required to obtain government-issued identification."

That, says Gilmore's lawyer, Jim Harrison, is the enigma of the case: "It's about the ability of the citizens of this country to be able to move about the country, to move about freely, without being subject to laws they can't see."

The legal cul-de-sac erected around airport security is not limited to Gimore's deliberately chosen fight. In October 2001, at San Francisco Airport, Arshad Chowdhury, born and raised in the United States, was surrounded by security agents and kept off a Northwest Airlines flight. He was trying to get back to Carnegie Mellon University, where he was a graduate student.

Chowdhury's last name sounded somewhat like another name on the no-fly list. He could never get an explanation. He filed suit against Northwest, but, to date, his court fight has been with the government, which has pleaded Sensitive Security Information.

To sue Northwest for racial profiling, Chowdhury must first sue his own government for the rules Northwest will plead it was enforcing.

High-tech togetherness

Code Con is one of those technological events so deep that ordinary conversation requires an English-to-English translator. A young woman was onstage explaining a system she had developed to, as it turns out, automate trust in discussion groups by assigning a ranking of credibility to participants based on past messages and reactions. Discussion boards must either be moderated, to keep the wackos from disrupting them, or wide open, in which case postings can take unreasonably long times.

As she spoke, half the audience inside a darkened nightclub rented for the event stared into the blue glow of laptop computers. Some were following the PowerPoint presentation on a Web site set up for the affair.

Dan Klein, a Pittsburgh computer consultant, was in the back of the room. He has known Gilmore for years, and to know Gilmore is to know the room. Computer programmers, the really good ones, combine an artistic temperament with a conviction that intuitive reasoning can lead to mathematical certainty.

"It's elegant thinking," Klein said. "We are most of us white hats, but we think like black hats."

The elegance of Gilmore's thinking is that knowing someone's ID does not prevent the person from committing a terrorist act. The 9/11 hijackers had driver's licenses. Knowing someone's identity, as Gilmore argues it, adds less to a security than it takes away from a traveler's protection from authority that might oppress simply because it can.

"It's just rebellion against oppression," Klein said. "Part of it is this sense of 'Why do I have to follow all these rules when they don't make any sense?' "

The young woman finished her speech, took a few questions and, just as everyone was about to rise for lunch, Scannell, a peripatetic man who orbits around both the techies and the world of PR, was on the stage. He had a special request. He had just become a parent and wanted to put in a wireless baby monitor. Could someone come up with a way to encrypt a baby monitor so outsiders couldn't pick up the signal?

By day's end a few people had approached with ideas. It is doubtful anyone would bother to listen in on a baby gurgling, but this was the principle of the thing: meeting the people who know the math to make it work.

Soon afterward, 14 Code Con attendees flooded into a nearby Italian restaurant. Gilmore sat at one end of the table, chatted privacy, travel and whether the drug called Ecstasy has a medicinal application. Then, to save time, he picked up everyone's check. In cash. No credit cards. Why leave a paper trail?

That night, he caught a ride home with a friend. The night before was more to his liking. On a bus running through San Francisco to Haight-Ashbury, a multimillionaire sat alone in a seat next to a woman who appeared to be homeless. Neither knew who the other one was. All John Gilmore had to show to get on board was a $1.25 fare. That's how he likes it.


(Dennis Roddy can be reached at droddy@post-gazette.com or 412-263-1965.)


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: airlinesecurity; dramaqueens; eff; millionaire; nut; privacy; searches; travel
Methinks John is doing good with this. The very concept of secret laws is distinctly unamerican.
1 posted on 02/27/2005 6:43:26 PM PST by zeugma
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To: zeugma

Good for him! I'd love to see him win. I remember when "your papers, please" was a standard element of anti-communist propaganda... and I'm not all that old.


2 posted on 02/27/2005 6:56:41 PM PST by thoughtomator (Unafraid to be unpopular)
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To: zeugma
Same story
3 posted on 02/27/2005 6:59:18 PM PST by martin_fierro (Impetuous! Homeric!)
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To: zeugma
Gilmore started his own firm, sold it for more money than he seems to have bothered to count and has since devoted his time to giving it away to favored causes: drug law reform

OK...

4 posted on 02/27/2005 6:59:36 PM PST by LowOiL ("I am neither . I am a Christocrat" -Benjamin Rush)
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To: zeugma

Boo hoo. So maybe he gets the Supreme Court to mandate a more open set of laws governing airport security.

That'll be fixed in about, oh, A DAY. In fact I'll bet the Supreme Court will give the Congress and President the leeway to take care of it before they throw the airport system into a frenzy.

Please excuse me if I don't shed a tear if someone doesn't feel like identifying himself before boarding an airplane. I'm sure Mohammed Atta would have appreciated that privilege too.


5 posted on 02/27/2005 7:01:17 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: mcg1969

Turn in your conservative membership card.

The first element of the rule of representative government is that the people have the right to actually know the laws that they must follow.

The second is that they have the right for representation in the making of those laws.

Both were violated here.


6 posted on 02/27/2005 7:04:31 PM PST by TWohlford
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To: zeugma

It's a no-brainer. If there's a problem on the plane, they need to know who is on it. Of course, if this man had his way, an escaped murderer could just buy a ticket and fly off. Also, the airlines could require the ID, even if the government didn't.


7 posted on 02/27/2005 7:08:15 PM PST by skr (May God bless those in harm's way and confound those who would do the harming)
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To: TWohlford
As you wish :) Seriously though, I'm all for the first step---getting the laws on the books. But let's have no illusions here: they will go on the books. Gillmore would prefer otherwise. He's basically playing the privacy equivalent of the "legalized marijuana and industrial hemp" game: everyone knows they just wanna smoke weed legally. Maybe that oughta be so, but let's just quit kidding ourselves about the motives, OK?
8 posted on 02/27/2005 7:11:13 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: mcg1969; TWohlford
"legalized marijuana and industrial hemp" ==> "legalized medical marijuana and industrial hemp"
9 posted on 02/27/2005 7:12:28 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: thoughtomator

Congratulations to John Gilmore, a real American.
I wonder if it would be possible to have the police and TSA employees deported for violating their oath to support the U.S. Constitution and as a result of being fraudulently naturalized due to that violation.


10 posted on 02/27/2005 7:13:30 PM PST by henderson field
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To: zeugma
Mr. Gilmore can spend some of those millions learning to fly and buy himself a plane.

Proving the point that you are not at the mercy of the government might be a stronger form of protest than trying to prove that you are.

11 posted on 02/27/2005 7:24:35 PM PST by Can i say that here?
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To: mcg1969
I'm sure Mohammed Atta would have appreciated that privilege too.

But the hijackers had ID, so what makes you think requiring ID for travel stop terrorists? It can only be used against honest people.
12 posted on 02/27/2005 7:25:38 PM PST by cryptical
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To: LowOiL
Gilmore started his own firm, sold it for more money than he seems to have bothered to count and has since devoted his time to giving it away to favored causes: drug law reform

OK...

That's ok lowoil, we don't expect drug warriors to support the Bill of Rights anyway.

13 posted on 02/27/2005 7:35:51 PM PST by zeugma (Come to the Dark Side...... We have cookies! (Made from the finest girlscouts!))
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To: mcg1969
That'll be fixed in about, oh, A DAY.

Yeah, Riiight. That is why they are fighting this so hard, when it could be fixed soooo easily.

Gilmore has it right. It wasn't as if we didn't know who Mohammed Atta was.

The whole idea of internal passports is wrong. It has the potential to turn us all into slaves. If the government knows everywhere you have been, what you have bought, and from who, no one is safe, and everyone can be found guilty of some law, some where, some time.

With our increasing technology, that is where internal passports leads.

14 posted on 02/27/2005 7:38:13 PM PST by marktwain
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To: zeugma

" Court of Star Chamber " comes to mind.


15 posted on 02/27/2005 7:38:49 PM PST by Tench_Coxe
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To: skr
Also, the airlines could require the ID, even if the government didn't.

Sure, the airlines could require that. But, there is stiff competition among the airlines. One would start to *not* require ID. People would fly it or not, and we would see if there was a market for it.

16 posted on 02/27/2005 7:40:59 PM PST by marktwain
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To: skr
Of course, if this man had his way, an escaped murder could just buy a ticket and fly off.

So? That was the case for ohh... 70 years, and it didn't kill us.

Tyranny is always justified with an appeal to safety. I'd rather be a little less safe and a little more free. You can fly the airline that requires ID. I'll fly the one that doesn't, or accepts private ID that the company vouches belongs to an American Citizen without a felony conviction.. or any of a thousand market alternatives that would do the job as well or better without worrying about government control run amuck, thank you very much.

17 posted on 02/27/2005 7:46:59 PM PST by marktwain
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To: mcg1969
"Boo hoo. So maybe he gets the Supreme Court to mandate a more open set of laws governing airport security.

That'll be fixed in about, oh, A DAY. In fact I'll bet the Supreme Court will give the Congress and President the leeway to take care of it before they throw the airport system into a frenzy.

Please excuse me if I don't shed a tear if someone doesn't feel like identifying himself before boarding an airplane. I'm sure Mohammed Atta would have appreciated that privilege too."

His court case isn't about being required to show ID. It's about the law, which people are expected to know and obey, being actually available for the public to review.

Unless you're like some nazi SS man who expects the law to be followed because someone in the uniform says it's the law, and no, you lowly peons can't see the text of the law for yourself.

(Did you like how I equated you with a nazi SS thug the same way you equated him with a terrorist? Kinda neat, eh?)

If this happened during the clinton years, and it was janet reno saying "no, you can't see the text of the law", you and everyone else here would be up in arms. That makes you a hypocrite. If you say you wouldn't be doing that, that makes you a liar.
18 posted on 02/27/2005 7:51:53 PM PST by flashbunny (Every thought that enters my head requires its own vanity thread.)
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To: zeugma

Gilmore has enough $$$ to charter a private jet. I have a buddy who has a jet charter company and when we go somewhere I'm never asked for ID:)


19 posted on 02/27/2005 8:03:32 PM PST by isthisnickcool (This space for rent.)
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To: zeugma

Posted: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1352087/posts

Then read his website: http://www.toad.com/gnu/
He's unable to travel because he refuses to present a government-approved ID
John Gimore: "In my spare time I practice Iyengar Yoga, read, listen to music....travel...., program, and socialize."

John Gilmore's homepage.

Disarming the United States. The Bush Administration should be forced by United Nations resolutions to surrender its "weapons of mass destruction" or face the consequences. "Any government that repeatedly threatens and attacks other soveriegn countries without provocation, that holds massive stocks of nuclear and conventional weapons, that tortures its own citizens and those of other countries, that refuses to follow its own constitution and laws as well as international treaties which it co-created and signed, that holds 500,000 political prisoners in its jails, that imprisons the largest number and percentage of its people in the world... Any such government needs to immediately disarm and submit to a regime change, or face the consequences from the international community." See also the Pictures from the Iraq war that the US tried to censor so that Americans could not see them.

For someone who likes to remain "isolated from government view", Gilmore charts his achievements and anything else he thinks you want to know about him and his issues on [self]privacy". You only have to follow the yellow brick road on his self promoting website. ;)



20 posted on 02/27/2005 8:05:31 PM PST by fight_truth_decay
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To: zeugma

I just don't like the idea of "secret laws." How can we determine if they are (1) constitutional and (2) being properly enforced/fairly applied if we cannot see them?

(I am not saying that the law is/is not a good law, I am just saying that we have no way of telling. I see that as a potential problem.)

God Bless America!


21 posted on 02/27/2005 8:22:30 PM PST by PERKY2004 ((It's my tagline and I'll freep if I want to!))
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To: mcg1969
Please excuse me if I don't shed a tear if someone doesn't feel like identifying himself before boarding an airplane. I'm sure Mohammed Atta would have appreciated that privilege too.

From the article: The elegance of Gilmore's thinking is that knowing someone's ID does not prevent the person from committing a terrorist act. The 9/11 hijackers had driver's licenses. Knowing someone's identity, as Gilmore argues it, adds less to a security than it takes away from a traveler's protection from authority that might oppress simply because it can.

I refuse to fly until they admit that even terrorists armed with AK-47s will never be able to fully commandeer another American aircraft. If I, or any other red-blooded Amercian man or woman was on the plane, we'd swarm the bastards. They'd have to kill us all, every last one of us.

So quit grabbing the nail-clippers and pretending you're making us safe, you stupid effers.

22 posted on 02/27/2005 8:54:36 PM PST by an amused spectator (your property: guilty until proven innocent)
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To: fight_truth_decay
Gilmore is full of it on "Disarming the United States", of course.

However, we don't do "secret laws" here on Free Republic. Actually, I kind of like "Less Laws", too. I don't like the fact that there's people working long days to implement news laws - and I'm paying them to do it.

23 posted on 02/27/2005 9:01:52 PM PST by an amused spectator (your property: guilty until proven innocent)
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To: zeugma
I am no supporter of big brother....BUT you have to show ID to write checks, make returns and buy alcohol and tobacco. Why shouldn't you have to show ID when getting on a plane? If you don't like the policy you can do as Mr. Gilmore has.....stop traveling. Although I agree that if an airline is going to say "it's the law" they better have the law posted or change their standard answer to "it is our policy"....just my opinion.
24 posted on 02/27/2005 9:04:34 PM PST by ThisLittleLightofMine
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To: an amused spectator

I would be interested in knowing just where the writer of this article found that this was a "secret law". It seems odd to me that so many people posting here are taking the authors word as credit. I would be interested in seeing some supporting documentation (aside from articles about the same guy).


25 posted on 02/27/2005 9:18:36 PM PST by kaboom
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To: marktwain
The whole idea of internal passports is wrong. It has the potential to turn us all into slaves. If the government knows everywhere you have been, what you have bought, and from who, no one is safe, and everyone can be found guilty of some law, some where, some time.

Honest question: is it not reasonable to provide a means for someone to prove their identity and citizenship? If not, how in the heck do we stop, say, illegal immigration? Or voter fraud? If so, then in what way is that not an internal passport? What controls would you place on said "authentication" to prevent it from being misused?

26 posted on 02/27/2005 9:51:45 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: flashbunny
If this happened during the clinton years, and it was janet reno saying "no, you can't see the text of the law", you and everyone else here would be up in arms. That makes you a hypocrite. If you say you wouldn't be doing that, that makes you a liar.

Read what I said in another post above. I honestly have no problem with the ostensible purpose of Gilmore's protest. And in that sense, I do applaud his service to the Constitution.

My problem is, that's really not his ultimate aim. He'd still be fighting if he saw the law. I believe that it is reasonable and necessary for the government to be able to verify who is and is not a citizen of this country. Now perhaps the internal passport issue is far more than that, but let's have that debate separately, without the pretense.

27 posted on 02/27/2005 9:54:39 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: flashbunny
Unless you're like some nazi SS man who expects the law to be followed because someone in the uniform says it's the law, and no, you lowly peons can't see the text of the law for yourself. (Did you like how I equated you with a nazi SS thug the same way you equated him with a terrorist? Kinda neat, eh?)

Oh, and give me friggin' break. I was not equating Gilmore with a terrorist. My point is that we have reasons to confirm the identity of those traveling by air. Gilmore is not a terrorist, but I'd like to feel comfortable knowing that the fellow sitting next to me is Gilmore and not a terrorist posing as him.

Far be it from me to expect you to actually understand my point.

28 posted on 02/27/2005 9:58:25 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: an amused spectator
From the article: The elegance of Gilmore's thinking is that knowing someone's ID does not prevent the person from committing a terrorist act. The 9/11 hijackers had driver's licenses. Knowing someone's identity, as Gilmore argues it, adds less to a security than it takes away from a traveler's protection from authority that might oppress simply because it can.

Yeah, so? He's wrong.

29 posted on 02/27/2005 10:00:42 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: ThisLittleLightofMine
I am no supporter of big brother....BUT you have to show ID to write checks, make returns and buy alcohol and tobacco. Why shouldn't you have to show ID when getting on a plane?

Uh-oh. Be prepared for the privacy hardliners to tell you that, by virtue of the first half of your question, you do support big brother.

30 posted on 02/27/2005 10:01:48 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: an amused spectator
I refuse to fly until they admit that even terrorists armed with AK-47s will never be able to fully commandeer another American aircraft. If I, or any other red-blooded Amercian man or woman was on the plane, we'd swarm the bastards. They'd have to kill us all, every last one of us.

As much as I'd like to believe that, I don't. To be clear: YES I believe they would have to kill us all before they could accomplish their goals. But I think it has been amply demonstrated that they are entirely willing to kill innocents to accomplish their goals. I'm sure the terrorists know as well as anyone that Americans are going to fight back next time; they will not attempt another hijacking until they strategize a way around that.

31 posted on 02/27/2005 10:04:59 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: mcg1969

and be prepared with mcg199 to keep posting response after response that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

A little wanting for attention tonight, eh?


32 posted on 02/27/2005 11:40:51 PM PST by flashbunny (Every thought that enters my head requires its own vanity thread.)
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To: mcg1969
Honest question: is it not reasonable to provide a means for someone to prove their identity and citizenship? If not, how in the heck do we stop, say, illegal immigration? Or voter fraud? If so, then in what way is that not an internal passport? What controls would you place on said "authentication" to prevent it from being misused?

No, it is *not* reasonable to have the government require you to obtain a means to prove your identity. This is completely different from "providing a means for someone to prove their identity and citizenship". That could be done by competing private companies, if there were a demand to do so commercially. The drive to have the "government" do it, especially with the airlines, is just a way to transfer costs and accountability to the government from the companies. That is why the airlines lobbied so hard for the security at airports (TSA) to be taken over by the government.

It *is* the job of the government to secure the borders, and we have instituted a passport system that is available. Passports are a fairly new requirement. They were not required for the first hundred years or so of this country.

As for voting, we had a pretty good system to prevent fraud that required people to register in person, to prove that they were a resident of their precinct, and to be known through the registration process by the volunteers that manned the polls. You could not vote unless you had been a resident for at least six months. Students at college, for example, maintained their voting status where they came from, because of the temporary nature of their residence.

All of that has been swept away by successive waves of liberal "reforms" designed to make voting (and in my opinion, voting fraud) easier and easier. We should return back to the old system in which absentee ballots were only allowed in circumstances where the voter could not make it to the polls, and in which those circumstances were vouched to and arrangements made at least a month before election day.

Going back to the old controls would serve us well.

33 posted on 02/28/2005 4:28:46 AM PST by marktwain
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To: fight_truth_decay
Greetings. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day. I support his efforts to protect privacy. Doesn't mean I buy into his entire agenda. I've had a few confersations with him and he's pretty admanant about reigning back big brother.

That's one reason why toad.com hosted the cypherpunks mailing list for several years, and an anonymous remailer. Cyperpunks is a distributed mailing list now to keep there from being a single point of failure on it, but many of the old-timers on the list still refer to the list address as cypherpunks@toad.com. I learned a lot about encryption on that list, and had some interesting political discussions, but some positions some folks take are definitely not things I'd support.

OTOH, I found Assasination Politics to be intreging on it's technical merits, as well as policy implications.

34 posted on 02/28/2005 5:06:37 AM PST by zeugma (Come to the Dark Side...... We have cookies! (Made from the finest girlscouts!))
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To: an amused spectator
I refuse to fly until they admit that even terrorists armed with AK-47s will never be able to fully commandeer another American aircraft. If I, or any other red-blooded Amercian man or woman was on the plane, we'd swarm the bastards. They'd have to kill us all, every last one of us.

That is my position as well, The only thing that they could do to reduce the threat any more than has already been done by 9/12/01 itself, is to arm the pilots and passengers. Of course they'll never do that, because it would empower US, not THEM.

So quit grabbing the nail-clippers and pretending you're making us safe, you stupid effers.

Hear hear!

35 posted on 02/28/2005 5:13:15 AM PST by zeugma (Come to the Dark Side...... We have cookies! (Made from the finest girlscouts!))
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To: ThisLittleLightofMine
If there were a choice on the matter I'd have no probem with it either. Rather than fly company A that requires ID, and won't let you fly without identifying yourself with a government issued document, I'd fly the "We Don't Care Who You Are, Yes, Feel Free To Bring Your Handgun Along" airline.

Of course, such choices would only be available in a free country.

36 posted on 02/28/2005 5:16:50 AM PST by zeugma (Come to the Dark Side...... We have cookies! (Made from the finest girlscouts!))
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To: an amused spectator; lainie
obsoletely
37 posted on 02/28/2005 6:53:06 AM PST by Cheapskate (America , -- -- -- -- Yeah!)
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To: marktwain
As for voting, we had a pretty good system to prevent fraud that required people to register in person, to prove that they were a resident of their precinct, and to be known through the registration process by the volunteers that manned the polls. You could not vote unless you had been a resident for at least six months. Students at college, for example, maintained their voting status where they came from, because of the temporary nature of their residence.

Wait a minute: so anyone who manages to evade border security and live in the same place for six months is presumed a citizen with the right to vote?

38 posted on 02/28/2005 6:56:10 AM PST by mcg1969
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To: flashbunny
A little wanting for attention tonight, eh?

You didn't seem to mind providing it, so what's your problem?

39 posted on 02/28/2005 6:56:52 AM PST by mcg1969
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To: ShadowAce

check this out


40 posted on 02/28/2005 6:59:55 AM PST by stainlessbanner (Let's all pray for HenryLee II)
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To: zeugma

I had never thought about BYOG (bring your own gun)airline....I like this idea....this airline might be big in the Middle East.


41 posted on 02/28/2005 4:29:07 PM PST by ThisLittleLightofMine
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To: ThisLittleLightofMine
I think you'd be suprised at how well an airline that allowed guns and cigarettes on board would do. But again, those are only possible in a free country.
42 posted on 02/28/2005 4:38:43 PM PST by zeugma (Come to the Dark Side...... We have cookies! (Made from the finest girlscouts!))
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To: mcg1969
Wait a minute: so anyone who manages to evade border security and live in the same place for six months is presumed a citizen with the right to vote?

That is not what I said.

The equivalent would be for me to say that under your system, anybody who presents a fake I.D. can vote?

I am describing the system as it was, and it worked pretty well. I would add real penalties for fraudulent votes, or for anyone encouraging fraudulent votes. Under the current system, here in Arizona, people are prevented from investigating vote fraud by the Federal election police (Voting Rights Act).

National I.D. cards are no panacea for voting fraud. I do not believe they are worth the loss of freedom that they entail.

43 posted on 02/28/2005 5:30:47 PM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Well indeed, voting is a bit different because each state has some autonomy in the selection of their representatives and Electoral College electors. Still, the difference between "my" system and "yours" is, IMO, the feasibility of enforcement. Certainly ID cards are no panacea, but I'm just not seeing how it is feasible to verify citizenship without some sort of, well, record, whether that is of birth or naturalization. How can I prove that a vote is fraudulent if I cannot prove that a person is not a citizen? Perhaps the key is that there needn't be a single national ID card; each state can be responsible for its own.


44 posted on 02/28/2005 10:28:44 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: mcg1969
We used birth certificates before. If we had good safeguards in place, a fingerprint scanner would be useful.

The big problem is, how do you develop a system that will not be abused, or at least keeps abuse to a minimal level? How do you insure that the safe guards are in place?

Most people who want the system refuse to talk about drawbacks, which make the people who see dangers very suspicious.

If people in the government had shown themselves to be sticklers for enforcing their oath of office, I would have no problem with the biometric I.D. Unfortunately that is not the case, and we see blatant violations of the Constitution daily. Probably 2/3 of the government would be *gone* if our officeholders followed their oath of office.

45 posted on 03/01/2005 5:38:04 PM PST by marktwain
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