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South African Navy all at sea over new submarine(Racial quotas again!!!)
BusinessDay ^ | 04/03/05

Posted on 03/04/2005 10:47:11 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki

Navy must be all at sea over new submarine

A WHOLE box of expensive new toys and not enough boys qualified to play with them. That’s the poser facing the South African Navy as it prepares to take delivery of the first new submarine bought in terms of the controversial multibillion-rand arms deal.

News 24 reports that while the navy put in place a policy of training three black submariners for every white one a couple of years ago, in preparation for the imminent handover, a lack of experienced black crew members has left newly appointed navy chief Vice-Admiral Johannes Modimo in a bit of quandary.

The sub will either have to be manned by a demographically unrepresentative, but experienced crew when it is launched in Germany, or the navy will have to suffer the humiliation of having its new toy delivered on a freighter. The alternative would be to send S101, as the unnamed but fully equipped sub is called at present, into international waters under the control of a crew with a largely theoretical knowledge of their jobs.

Puts the whole “racial quotas in sport” debate into perspective, doesn’t it?

I’d rather be Elswhere

THE sacrifices you have to make to earn megabucks as an international sports star.

Reuters reports that the Big Easy, South African golfer Ernie Els, experienced a reality check this week after being forced to fly economy class for the first time in 10 years to ensure he arrived in Europe in time for the next tour event.

“I flew in the back of the bus,” the burly Els complained.

“I was in the middle of the row. You really appreciate the better things in life now.”

Insider sympathises. There’s barely enough legroom in cattle class to squeeze in a golf club, let alone the space to swing a cat.

If it ain’t broke …

GIVEN the spate of errors Business Day has had to grovel over lately, Insider thought readers might be successfully distracted by a reference to the opposite phenomenon, known as hypercorrection.

This is characterised by overzealous editors “fixing” errors that are in fact correct. A prime example was when author Anthony Burgess submitted a manuscript entitled A Clockwork Orang to his publisher. He was living in Indonesia at the time, and “orang” was the word for “man” in the local language. But his editor knew better, hence the title of the cult classic we know so well today.

And, author Anne McCaffrey’s collection of stories was supposed to be published under the title, Get of the Unicorn, “get” in this case referring to progeny. Her editors, in their wisdom, changed it to Get off the Unicorn. In a similar vein, the movie The Madness of King George was based on a stage play called The Madness of King George III, but the producers feared an American audience might assume it was a sequel, and wonder what had happened to The Madness of King George and The Madness of King George II.

Quirky quote

“Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied.” — Count Otto von Bismark (1815-1898), Germany’s first chancellor.

E-mail: insider@bdfm.co.za


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: navy; racialquotas; southafrica; submarine; submarines; type209
The subs that South Africa are to get are among the most advanced variants of Germany's Type-209 class,pity they may find themselves in a mess.
1 posted on 03/04/2005 10:47:11 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

as the unnamed but fully equipped sub is called at present, into international waters under the control of a crew with a largely theoretical knowledge of their jobs.

Fascinating. Somebody needs to expound.


2 posted on 03/04/2005 10:51:20 PM PST by Quixotical (More info please)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

economy class for the first time in 10 years to ensure he arrived in Europe in time for the next tour event.

“I flew in the back of the bus,” the burly Els complained.

“I was in the middle of the row. You really appreciate the better things in life now.”



O My God. He has been enlightened by an economy class seat.


3 posted on 03/04/2005 10:53:11 PM PST by Quixotical (The Seat That Could Enlighten)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

proportional representation in the military??? on a submarine?? Are these people nuts??


4 posted on 03/04/2005 10:54:03 PM PST by GeronL (Condi will not be mistaken for a cleaning lady)
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To: Quixotical

He could be enlightened daily by wearing tighter underwear


5 posted on 03/04/2005 10:54:53 PM PST by GeronL (Condi will not be mistaken for a cleaning lady)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

The Madness of King George III. Well if the III one is good enough then I and II are farily unimportant?


6 posted on 03/04/2005 10:55:29 PM PST by Quixotical (The Seat That Could Enlighten)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Just look at Zimbabwe, SA is a sinking ship and anyone with advanced technical knowledge should get out while they still can, im sure we will gladly accept 'em.


7 posted on 03/04/2005 10:57:34 PM PST by chudogg (www.chudogg.blogspot.com)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

No useless seamen jokes, please.


8 posted on 03/04/2005 10:58:50 PM PST by dennisw (Seeing as how this is a .44 magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world .........)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

A black day in South African Navy history.


9 posted on 03/04/2005 11:00:14 PM PST by taxesareforever
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To: dennisw

"No useless seamen jokes, please."

There's a vasectomy joke in there somewhere, waiting to be found.


10 posted on 03/04/2005 11:03:23 PM PST by PLMerite ("Unarmed, one can only flee from Evil. But Evil isn't overcome by fleeing from it." Jeff Cooper)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Do all third world nations get their subs from germany?


11 posted on 03/04/2005 11:04:00 PM PST by Righty_McRight ("Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter" Proverbs 24:11)
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To: sukhoi-30mki


http://www.news24.com/News24/South_Africa/News/0,,2-7-1442_1669836,00.html


12 posted on 03/04/2005 11:05:07 PM PST by Ellesu
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To: Righty_McRight

If you rate the militaries of Israel,India,South Korea,Greece etc as third world,you are probably right!!


13 posted on 03/04/2005 11:06:28 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki
LMAO!!!
What on earth does a third-world toilet like South Africa need a submarine for?!!
They didn't get missles with that thing, did they?
14 posted on 03/04/2005 11:06:31 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: Lancey Howard

South Africa's military is world class by African standards.They do have substantial maritime interests so subs make sense.

PS-South Africa has a very very competent arms industry with everything ranging from tank upgrades to SAMs to stand-off munitions.


15 posted on 03/04/2005 11:08:51 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: Lancey Howard

Those subs will come with torpedoes for now,but could probably be outfitted with anti-ship missiles like the American Harpoon or the French Exocet.


16 posted on 03/04/2005 11:11:34 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: Righty_McRight
Do all third world nations get their subs from germany?

Ja, und the movie Das Boot is the training film.

17 posted on 03/04/2005 11:15:46 PM PST by Last Dakotan
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To: sukhoi-30mki

India can't make it's own subs?


18 posted on 03/04/2005 11:22:39 PM PST by Righty_McRight ("Rescue those being led away to death; hold back those staggering toward slaughter" Proverbs 24:11)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
This is characterised by overzealous editors “fixing” errors that are in fact correct. A prime example was when author Anthony Burgess submitted a manuscript entitled A Clockwork Orang to his publisher. He was living in Indonesia at the time, and “orang” was the word for “man” in the local language. But his editor knew better, hence the title of the cult classic we know so well today. And, author Anne McCaffrey’s collection of stories was supposed to be published under the title, Get of the Unicorn, “get” in this case referring to progeny. Her editors, in their wisdom, changed it to Get off the Unicorn. In a similar vein, the movie The Madness of King George was based on a stage play called The Madness of King George III, but the producers feared an American audience might assume it was a sequel, and wonder what had happened to The Madness of King George and The Madness of King George II.

And this still continues.

For example, the book (and movie) 'Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone' was changed to 'Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone' in the US because publishers feared that American kids would not know the legend behind the Philosopher's stone (according to mythology able to turn lead into gold, and grant long life to its holder). Thus, in Britain, the British Commonwealth and most of the world it was H.P and the Philosopher's Stone, while in the US it was H.P and the Sorcerer's Stone.

19 posted on 03/04/2005 11:33:39 PM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear tipped ICBMs: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol.)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
Those subs will come with torpedoes for now,but could probably be outfitted with anti-ship missiles like the American Harpoon or the French Exocet.

Last I read Israel had three German submarines that can be outfitted with nuclear tipped cruise missiles. Unfortunately their (missiles) range is only 90 miles. Plus only three nuclear warheads per submarine due to radiation concerns.

20 posted on 03/04/2005 11:37:14 PM PST by dennisw (Seeing as how this is a .44 magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world .........)
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To: Quixotical
Fascinating. Somebody needs to expound.

as the unnamed but fully equipped sub is called at present, into international waters under the control of a crew with a largely theoretical knowledge of their jobs.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok. Imagine the democrats are in charge on 9-11.

21 posted on 03/04/2005 11:39:10 PM PST by bad company (There can be no freedom without right and wrong.)
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To: Righty_McRight

India has built the German Type-209 under license,so has South Korea,Greece & Brazil,while Australia has built Swedish subs & Pakistan French ones.The point to be noted is that these countries only BUILT the ships,not designed them.A lot of nations build D/E subs,only a handful design them & that won't change unless South Korea & India decide to rework their arms export policies.India's last homebuilt sub hit the water in 1993,since then the yard has been lying idle,though it is in the process of being upgraded to build new French subs & possibly Russian D/Es as well.India's N-subs are being fabricated at another yard on the Eastern Seaboard.


22 posted on 03/04/2005 11:39:36 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: dennisw

Well I think there's a bit of (deliberate) confusion on that.Some sources say that the nuclear tipped missile is a modification of the American Harpoon which is highly unlikely given it's range & small warhead.Most others say that the missile is a dedicated cruise missile,the Popeye Turbo(Popeye-3) which was testfired off India's coastline(Surprise!!) in 2000.Now lots of guesstimates of the range of the Popeye Turbo range from 350 kms to 1500kms.The size of the missile makes sense given that the Dolphins have around 4 650mm torpedo tubes,which are not exactly common on D/E subs.


23 posted on 03/04/2005 11:43:40 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Thanks for your great insight as to the true range of Israeli cruise missiles/ Can they be launched from torpedo tubes?


24 posted on 03/04/2005 11:51:42 PM PST by dennisw (Seeing as how this is a .44 magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world .........)
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To: dennisw

Well, no one knows the true range of the Popeye-T & the Israelis are doing a great job in keeping everyone confused.I think that those missiles can be launched via the 650mm Torpedo tubes.I hope the Israelis get Germany to modify the Type-212 class subs(which they hope to buy) to have a VLS,which will free up torpedo tubes.


25 posted on 03/04/2005 11:55:37 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: chudogg

U have talked to MANY former SA residents......you are right, they are getting out as fast as they can. In another ten years it will be just another "Turd World Country"


26 posted on 03/05/2005 12:18:54 AM PST by Bogtrotter52 (Singin' the blues with a smarmy Irish smile)
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To: Righty_McRight

"...Do all third world nations get their subs from germany?..."

Funny that Administration of President Bush wanted to buy some subs from Germany to deliver them over the USA to Taiwan, since the US do not have comparable weapons in their inventory. The production of D/E-submarines was stopped in favor of nuclear powered vessels in the US a long time ago. America is not able to produce them in a short time under sensible expenses either, because D/E-subs are very complex (and expensive) systems. The deal was refused by the German Bundesregierung under Chancellor Schröder, who is not willing to export such advanced weapons to Taiwan. The other competent producers of D/E-submarines in this world, France and Russia, prefer delivering their weapons rather to red China than to the small US-ally Taiwan.

Conclusion: Taiwan will not get the arms to protect its coasts. Maybe because it belongs to the first world nations...

:-))

P.S.

Modern D/E-subs are dangerous and deadly weapons. Even to such an advanced and strong fleet like the US navy. In difference to nuclear powered boats, where the reactor always makes a small but detectable noise, a D/E-sub that is driving under 5 knots is not in danger of being localised anymore. This advantage was compensated with the necessity to reload the batterys of the boat with the diesels during a "snorkeling-time". In this phase it was very easy to find such an submarine. Since the German HDW developed a new fuel-cell propulsion a few years ago, it is possible to dive several weeks without snorkeling. With this drive mechanism the boats are partically under a "cloak of invisibility". Just like any STEALTH-weapon. I think everbody here should know how dangerous this can be.


27 posted on 03/05/2005 5:59:38 AM PST by Atlantic Bridge (Quis, quid, ubi, quibus auxilius, cur, quomodo, quando?)
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To: Righty_McRight

"...Do all third world nations get their subs from germany?..."

Funny that Administration of President Bush wanted to buy some subs from Germany to deliver them over the USA to Taiwan, since the US do not have comparable weapons in their inventory. The production of D/E-submarines was stopped in favor of nuclear powered vessels in the US a long time ago. America is not able to produce them in a short time under sensible expenses either, because D/E-subs are very complex (and expensive) systems. The deal was refused by the German Bundesregierung under Chancellor Schröder, who is not willing to export such advanced weapons to Taiwan. The other competent producers of D/E-submarines in this world, France and Russia, prefer delivering their weapons rather to red China than to the small US-ally Taiwan.

Conclusion: Taiwan will not get the arms to protect its coasts. Maybe because it belongs to the first world nations...

:-))

P.S.

Modern D/E-subs are dangerous and deadly weapons. Even to such an advanced and strong fleet like the US navy. In difference to nuclear powered boats, where the reactor always makes a small but detectable noise, a D/E-sub that is driving under 5 knots is not in danger of being localised anymore. This advantage was compensated with the necessity to reload the batterys of the boat with the diesels during a "snorkeling-time". In this phase it was very easy to find such an submarine. Since the German HDW developed a new fuel-cell propulsion a few years ago, it is possible to dive several weeks without snorkeling. With this drive mechanism the boats are partically under a "cloak of invisibility". Just like any STEALTH-weapon. I think everbody here should know how dangerous this can be.


28 posted on 03/05/2005 6:01:02 AM PST by Atlantic Bridge (Quis, quid, ubi, quibus auxilius, cur, quomodo, quando?)
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To: Doohickey

Silent Service ping


29 posted on 03/05/2005 6:03:25 AM PST by swordfish71 (Tagline? What is "Tagline"?)
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To: Quixotical

Ernie's a big old boy...he must carry 250+ on his huge frame.


30 posted on 03/05/2005 6:06:31 AM PST by Guillermo (Abajo fidel: End the Cuban Trade Embargo)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
...and not enough boys qualified to play with them.

This statement and others in the article lead me to believe that they are not actively trying to recruit women and "trans gender persons" for their navy. Shame on them. Where is the international outrage?

31 posted on 03/05/2005 6:13:55 AM PST by FreePaul
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To: Lancey Howard

Get ready for an episode of "Pimp My Sub"...


32 posted on 03/05/2005 6:15:21 AM PST by Lurking2Long
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To: Quixotical

<< sukhoi-30mki
economy class for the first time in 10 years ....

O My God. He has been enlightened by an economy class seat. >>

He has the advantage of me, then. I have not, thank God, been back there, except on a walk-around, in around 40 years!

And 40 years ago -- before the airports and the aeroplanes filled up with uncouth, undressed yobbos who actually can't afford to fly -- Pan-Am [eg] stewards carved beautifully-prepared roast beef and served actual meals in Coach!


33 posted on 03/05/2005 7:36:23 AM PST by Brian Allen (I fly and can therefore be envious of no man -- Per Ardua ad Astra!)
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To: Atlantic Bridge

Japan also designs & builds world class D/Es,but they would taking a huge diplomatic risk hawking those to Taiwan.Other designers include Sweden & Holland,who have hedged their bets on China long ago.

PS-The German fuel cell based AIP appears to be the best around,but Sweden,France & Russia are all offering different AIP systems for their subs,with an average (continous) underwater submerged endurance of 10 days or more.


34 posted on 03/05/2005 7:47:30 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

As far as I know the Netherlands produced the two current Hai Lung class boats used by Taiwan since the mid-80ties. There are 2 more boats of the US-guppy class (anno domini 1945) but they do not count anymore. All this equipment is hopelessly outdated. Taiwan needs around 8 subs to answer the red Chinese threat.

In May 2002 Taiwan's legislature passed a resolution requiring that at least six of the proposed eight subs must be built in Taiwan with US help. In late June 2002 the cost of the eight submarines was reported as being as much as US$6 billion, making them the most expensive weapons system Taiwan has ever bought from the United States.

The Taiwanese dismissed a American proposal to buy submarines being buildt in Israel. They wanted German technology and nothing else and counted on US-pressure on the German government. This attempt did not work. In May 2004, Jane's Defence Weekly indicated that Northrop Grumman Ship Systems is offering Taiwan a modernized version of the old US Barbel - class submarine. NGSS would like to partner with Howaldtswerke- Deutsche Werft (HDW). The design of the submarine would use the Barbel's hullform fitted with an HDW pressure hull and modern components such as AIP. The submarine would have a submerged displacement of about 2,644 tons, a maximum speed of 21 knots, a range without refuelling of about 19,000nm and six torpedo or missile launch tubes. The likelihood of the deal is extremly uncertain as elements in Northrop Grumman appears to be cool to the idea, and it is unclear if the German government would approve HDW's transfer.

Personally I do not believe that Schröder is moving one inch in this case. Hehe! The US probably have to break a taboo and will sell Los Angeles cass nuke subs to Taiwan. This subject will remain exciting in the future.


35 posted on 03/05/2005 9:31:09 AM PST by Atlantic Bridge (Quis, quid, ubi, quibus auxilius, cur, quomodo, quando?)
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To: Atlantic Bridge

Israel has never built subs & has no plans for it either.All of their subs are of German build.I think the plan you are referring to was a proposal that Taiwan would buy a modified variant of Israel's current Dolphin class Type-209 boat,which would be built in the US with Germany's permission.The German component in such a venture would be very limited,but I don't think the Germans & later the Israelis would have shown much interest.Germany wouldn't want to jeopardise the huge civilian & military market in China,while Israel wouldn't want to lose it's source of subs,esp when they are planning to buy atleast 2 more new Type-212 class boats.


36 posted on 03/05/2005 9:38:16 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: chudogg

Q. What is the difference between Mugabe and Mbeki?
A. Oh, about five years.


37 posted on 03/05/2005 12:15:13 PM PST by SedVictaCatoni (<><)
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To: Brian Allen
And 40 years ago -- before the airports and the aeroplanes filled up with uncouth, undressed yobbos who actually can't afford to fly

Doubtless all those riffraff in coach who "can't afford to fly" have been given their tickets for free by the airline. Shame upon the common people for daring to sully our airplanes. Next they'll be wanting motor-cars.

38 posted on 03/05/2005 12:17:42 PM PST by SedVictaCatoni (<><)
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To: Lancey Howard

"They didn't get missiles with that thing, did they?"

Only one. And they can't load it without permission.


39 posted on 03/05/2005 1:06:15 PM PST by Search4Truth (When a man lies he murders some part of the world.)
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To: SedVictaCatoni

<< Doubtless all those ... in Coach who "can't afford to fly" have been given their tickets for free by the airline. >>

Effectively, yes.

Cynically-priced and hugely-bureaucracy-utilized [UN, NGOs, feral-gummint and all of the world's junketing gangsters posing as "politicians" -- including our own] Premium Services heavily subsidize the world's as often-as-not-state-owned [Or in America's example, Peter-Principle-corporatized and already-obscenely-state-subsidized and mobbed-up-unionized] dinosaur-airlines' air transport operations.


40 posted on 03/05/2005 8:14:44 PM PST by Brian Allen (I fly and can therefore be envious of no man -- Per Ardua ad Astra!)
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