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Left Behind (liberals discuss the current state of liberalism)
NY Times ^ | March 6, 2005 | Barry Gewen et al.

Posted on 03/05/2005 2:36:01 PM PST by neverdem

ROUNDTABLE

Peter Beinart, the editor of The New Republic; Michael Tomasky, the executive editor of The American Prospect; and Katrina vanden Heuvel, the editor of The Nation, are three leading voices for liberalism today. Now, following the re-election of George W. Bush, and with the continuing dominance of Republicans in Congress, the politics they stand for is arguably more embattled than at any time since 1933 and Franklin D. Roosevelt's New Deal. Barry Gewen, an editor at the Book Review, asked the three editors to discuss and debate the present state of liberalism in America, and its future.

Why has ''liberal'' become a dirty word for so many Americans today?

VANDEN HEUVEL. I would begin with the unrelenting assault on the term liberalism by the right wing. It has been a project over the last few decades. And by failing to take their own side in the argument liberals have conceded -- to the point where John Kerry was wary of being associated with liberalism in one of the debates. Liberals have also paid a heavy price by allowing liberalism to be defined almost exclusively as social liberalism. So that you lost sight of economic rights, economic justice.

TOMASKY. I essentially agree with that. But liberal concepts still have more resonance than you might think. Polls continually show that people are rhetorically conservative and operationally liberal or progressive.

BEINART. Yes, the term needs to be defended. But I think one also needs to recognize that while people may be conceptually liberal, they're not voting for enough liberals. Liberals need to look at how they grew estranged from large numbers of Americans in the post-Vietnam period. And I think another estrangement has occurred since 9/11. Many Americans have questions about the degree to which liberals are willing to defend the country.

VANDEN HEUVEL. A majority of Americans support an America that works with international institutions, that wants a strengthened U.N., that wants to be part of a constructive multilateral engagement with the world. And that is ignored by too many liberals because it doesn't seem like a winning strategy.

TOMASKY. I want to move on to the cultural issues here for a moment, because they are obviously quite important in what's happened to liberalism. There's a conversation that's going to have to happen with regard to issues like gay marriage. Was it pursued in the right way in 2004, either by the Massachusetts court or by [the mayor of San Francisco] Gavin Newsom? And abortion is obviously a very vexing question. Has the rhetoric that's used to defend abortion rights really defended the core principle well? Or does that rhetoric need to change?

VANDEN HEUVEL. We need to make a distinction between the first-principles conversation and the one on electoral winning strategies. And I think that becomes tricky. But on the gay marriage issue, for example, we are a more tolerant country than we were 20, 30 years ago.

BEINART. I think one of the great problems in the debates about abortion and gay rights is the perception that liberals are illiberal and nondemocratic. It's remarkable to me how many people still mention the fact that [the anti-abortion Pennsylvania governor] Bob Casey was denied the right to speak at the 1992 Democratic convention. That was an illiberal thing the party did. And there is an important debate for liberals to have about the role of the courts in pushing social change. Finally, I don't think you can separate these questions from people's larger concerns about the culture. Liberals should believe in free speech, of course, but there is no reason that liberals need to believe that everything that comes out of an unregulated free market is good culturally.

VANDEN HEUVEL. I agree that too often liberalism has become associated with license instead of liberty. But you know that among progressives there is a critique of this kind of free-market vulgar culture, which is promoted not by The Nation or The American Prospect or The New Republic but by Fox television.

TOMASKY. Parents do worry about what their kids are seeing, what their kids are being exposed to. I'm no prude but sometimes I'm surprised by what I see on television or what I see in commercials.

VANDEN HEUVEL. Again, we need to make the case that these are not our values, but without diminishing the liberal belief in free speech.

BEINART. Democratic politicians who made this the biggest issue, Tipper Gore and then Joe Lieberman, both faced a fair degree of ridicule from within their own ranks. Neither of them as far as I can tell was advocating censorship.

What would a liberal foreign policy look like?

TOMASKY. A kind of principled realism. First, terrorism is a threat. It threatened our shores more directly than the Soviet Union ever did. And it must be the focus of a foreign policy. We need alliances, yes. But alliances are a means. The end is the isolation of terrorists and the states that harbor them. The end is the control of nuclear proliferation, an extremely serious issue that the Bush administration sort of ignores. And the end is bringing liberty to the places of the world where it doesn't exist.

BEINART. I would just add that the Bush administration's guiding principle is a belief in military power, not a belief in human rights and democracy. It is why there has been no Marshall Plan since 9/11 by this administration. It is why they consistently try to cut programs to deal with the loose nuclear materials. It is why they have not seriously engaged with trying to create liberal currents in civil society in the Muslim world. This is where liberals have a real opportunity. Conservatives today, like conservatives during the cold war in so many ways, do not have a sufficient appreciation of the nonmilitary aspects of American power in this struggle.

VANDEN HEUVEL. I don't think we understand the challenges of the 21st century if we make the ''global war against terror'' our organizing principle. How does military dominance -- and that is at the core of too much of the establishment liberal conception of security policy -- deal with the central challenges of insecure and decrepit nuclear arsenals in the former Soviet Union? Or pandemics like we've never seen? Or environmental degradation? Or global inequality? Or failed states? I would also argue that you need far more effective nonmilitary responses to the fight against terrorism, which may be lost if one pursues the kind of hawkish security policy you're laying out.

TOMASKY. I think the war in Iraq was a catastrophic mistake. It was not part of the war on terror. Somebody attacked us. We didn't get him. He's still at large. That's the war on terrorism to me. That's the heart of it.

VANDEN HEUVEL. In the context of the war on terror, Iraq was an act of self-sabotage.

BEINART. Let me say a couple of things as someone who did support the war in Iraq. There is no question that the war is going very, very badly. But I think two things remain even if we do end up deciding that Iraq was a terrible disaster. The first is that there is an important connection between dictatorship and the rise of Islamic fundamentalism. Secular dictators like Saddam Hussein or secular autocrats like Hosni Mubarak create a political dynamic in which liberalism gets weakened and weakened. And the only alternative becomes Islamic fundamentalism. The fight for a third way in the Muslim world is critically important. The second thing is that it is still entirely conceivable that there will be a role for the American military in this fight in the future -- not alone, I hope -- but in preventing a state from being a haven for the people who want to attack us. Because if we are attacked again, it will be a terrible, terrible day for liberal values in the United States.

VANDEN HEUVEL. I think you are ignoring the legitimate grievances in the Middle East. You cannot ignore the role of the Israeli-Palestinian crisis. And I think that is a very difficult one for the Democratic Party to address.

TOMASKY. I'm skeptical that Palestinian statehood, which I assume all of us support, which George Bush has said he supports, will solve a lot of these problems. I'm not persuaded that on the day that Palestinian statehood arrives that there still won't be buses being bombed in Israel. I'm skeptical that Israeli security forces will sit on their hands. And I'm skeptical that Islamic fundamentalists won't just find some other reason to hate the United States. I admit that's not a very hopeful assessment of the situation. And it's not very constructive.

To move on to domestic economic policy, the Bush administration pursues a more market-oriented philosophy while liberals tend to pursue a more government oriented philosophy. Is there some meeting ground?

TOMASKY. Not on Social Security. Social Security returns efficiencies that very few private programs of its sort can return. It's the greatest social insurance program devised by any government, ever. A lot of Democrats are open to some kind of private account on top of it. But as a principle Social Security is inviolate.

VANDEN HEUVEL. In fact, liberals and progressives have done a lot over the course of history to save the market from itself and from its excesses. And there is an interesting movement under way within the Democratic Party led by people like Eliot Spitzer and the treasurer in California, Phil Angelides, to use public pension funds to invest in what are called high-road investments: clean energy, high-wage enterprises. I think that's an interesting use of the market.

BEINART. I completely agree on Social Security. But I think liberals should be entirely empirical about market-oriented tax credits versus new government programs. Does a tax credit do something better or does a government program?

VANDEN HEUVEL. Something that hasn't been mentioned is labor, which I think is very important. Labor was a core component of the New Deal liberal coalition. Now it's under assault. It's a diminishing constituency, unfortunately, in the progressive liberal coalition.

TOMASKY. Labor can play a significant policy role if it becomes more powerful. Because that's how politics works. To me, the effort to organize Wal-Mart is what it's all about. That's a very hard fight that could take 20 years, but if the unions can organize the Wal-Mart stores that would be a titanic historical victory, like organizing the coal mines in the past.

BEINART. There was a very interesting discussion going on near the end of the Clinton administration between labor and what you might call New Democrats on the question of trade. It might have produced a kind of synthesis about America pushing for expanded trade deals that have labor and environmental protections -- as opposed to no free trade deals at all, or free trade deals that have no protections whatsoever, which is what the Bush administration generally favors. I think unfortunately that conversation, because the party is not in power, has come to a halt.

VANDEN HEUVEL. I do think that there is a larger question underpinning the role of labor in the Democratic Party, which is: How do you operate in an international environment where global conditions make it murderously difficult for American working people to achieve fair wages? The whole issue of international trade is one that has pulled the party apart. We are living in a new world and new conditions. There need to be some fundamental standards.

Can the Democrats become the majority party in America again?

TOMASKY. One of the Democratic Party's problems is that it doesn't have enough contact with its rank and file. Right-wing people in this country have a place to meet and talk politics -- their churches, increasingly the megachurches in the exurbs. There's not a meeting place like that for liberals and for Democrats. I think it's a job of the new party chairman to initiate some conversations about the core principles of the party. This is not usually the job of a chairman. He's usually a mechanic. But I think this has to happen now, because otherwise, before they know it, it's going to be 2006 and they're going to be the party of prescription drugs again. And then it's going to be 2008 and there won't be any context for what the party should be.

VANDEN HEUVEL. One of the things that came out of this election, which is exciting, is that there's the beginning of an independent infrastructure outside the Democratic Party, a kind of fusionist politics combining movement politics with electoral politics. And I would build on that, building a farm team of new, Paul Wellstone-type leaders, developing messages and ideas. Stop listening to the pollsters and consultants inside the Beltway; that's not where the energy, the passion, the conviction's going to come from.

BEINART. I think that the base needs to be engaged, absolutely, and I certainly think that Washington and Washington political consultants should not be the only people who set the direction for the party. But I also think it's important to remember the base was enormously engaged in this election. The Democratic Party still lost. The party has to have a listening tour within its own base but also a listening tour among swing constituencies that are moving away: Hispanics, Jews, the military in particular. The Democratic Party needs a strategy with military voters not simply because of their numbers, but because military voters will give the Democratic Party credibility with nonmilitary voters who are concerned the Democratic Party is not tough enough. One cannot forget the central fact that the Democratic Party has lost every election since the 9/11 era, in which national security has been predominant. That is an enormous, enormous problem.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: District of Columbia; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: beinart; denial; liberalism; liberals; riverinegypt; tomasky; vandenheuvel
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I hope you had a good laugh.
1 posted on 03/05/2005 2:36:06 PM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem

What color is the sky on Planet Vanden Heuvel?


2 posted on 03/05/2005 2:42:57 PM PST by hc87
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To: hc87

My guess would be commie red.


3 posted on 03/05/2005 2:47:23 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: neverdem

They still don't understand how out of step they are with the majority. I hope they do go to their base, the vocal whackos with "Bush is Hitler" and "Stay out of my Womb" signs in the streets, and the ACLU that wants Christmas and the Boy Scouts banned. Always crowd-pleasing topics sure to generate more Republican votes! :)


4 posted on 03/05/2005 2:48:42 PM PST by DTogo (U.S. out of the U.N. & U.N out of the U.S.)
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To: neverdem

The Democrats' Prayer

May America be plagued with disunity
Let the terrorists attack with impunity
May the economy crash
And no one but the government have any cash
They voted for Republicans, so, let them feel pain!
With earthquakes, fire, floods and rain...

EV


5 posted on 03/05/2005 2:49:16 PM PST by EternalVigilance (Freedom. Brought to you by the grace of God and the Red, White and Blue...)
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To: neverdem
TOMASKY. One of the Democratic Party's problems is that it doesn't have enough contact with its rank and file. Right-wing people in this country have a place to meet and talk politics -- their churches, increasingly the megachurches in the exurbs. There's not a meeting place like that for liberals and for Democrats.

Hey, y'all have your coven meetings!

6 posted on 03/05/2005 2:50:48 PM PST by EternalVigilance (Freedom. Brought to you by the grace of God and the Red, White and Blue...)
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To: neverdem
Yeesh. Was this overheard at Bellevue? These folks are operationally insane.

APf
7 posted on 03/05/2005 2:51:44 PM PST by APFel (For some reason, the word "Freeper" is flagged by the spellcheck. Someone contact Websters.)
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To: neverdem

herd aninal discussions are interesting


8 posted on 03/05/2005 2:52:26 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (The true danger is when Liberty is nibbled away, for expedients. - Edmund Burke (1799))
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To: neverdem
a listening tour

Liberals listen? I mean, really listen? Not the fake "I feel your pain" listen, but truly listen and understand?

Zero chance.

Because if they really listened and understood they wouldn't be liberals anymore.
9 posted on 03/05/2005 2:53:10 PM PST by cgbg (Dead people voted for higher taxes.)
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To: neverdem

I think all three should go to Iraq and tell the "people" who they fel their pain and tell them about their ideal of liberalism...gay marriage protections...judges making new laws without the consent of the people...television that can show anything...stealing money for the workers and giving it to the lazy.

They'll see the errors of their ways very quickly.


10 posted on 03/05/2005 2:57:17 PM PST by dannyboy72 (How long will you hold onto the rope when Liberals pull us off the cliff?)
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To: neverdem

"Why has ''liberal'' become a dirty word for so many Americans today?"
Liberal used to be a good word here and abroad. It meant to be liberated from government, or monarchy. American liberalism meant anti-communism, smaller government, lower taxes. Now it means the opposite, and conservatives now stand for all those things.


11 posted on 03/05/2005 2:59:43 PM PST by LA Conservative (Peace Kills)
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To: neverdem
My best laugh was from: "BEINART. Let me say a couple of things as someone who did support the war in Iraq. There is no question that the war is going very, very badly."

It's really going very, very badly, for the Democrats!

12 posted on 03/05/2005 3:05:17 PM PST by Woodworker (Good for America means bad for Democrats, and vice versa.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants

13 posted on 03/05/2005 3:06:47 PM PST by John Lenin
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To: neverdem

:-)


14 posted on 03/05/2005 3:06:49 PM PST by nopardons
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To: neverdem
I think it's a job of the new party chairman to initiate some conversations about the core principles of the party.


15 posted on 03/05/2005 3:07:30 PM PST by Maceman (Too nuanced for a bumper sticker)
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To: neverdem

Liberal Navel-Gazing ping


16 posted on 03/05/2005 3:09:09 PM PST by Clock King
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To: Maceman

17 posted on 03/05/2005 3:11:52 PM PST by John Lenin
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To: Blood of Tyrants; All

I don't remember any mention of their old mantra, gun control. Do you?


18 posted on 03/05/2005 3:13:16 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: neverdem

VANDEN HEUVEL. A majority of Americans support an America that works with international institutions, that wants a strengthened U.N., that wants to be part of a constructive multilateral engagement with the world.


This, this...thing is nuts. I could not get past this sentence. Strengthened U.N.- please!!!


19 posted on 03/05/2005 3:13:25 PM PST by Just A Nobody (US out of UN - UN out of US - NOW)
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To: neverdem
Funny, but disturbing, too. The tripe about this administration not caring about nuclear proliferation (Nuke Pak/India flared up due to the 'Toon's ignoring that, and tolerating and facilitating China's meddling there, and NK pulled the wool over the 'Toon's eyes with the wonderful unenforceable "framework", and Bush is VERY strong about Iran) as well as maintaining that in Iraq, "the war is going very, very badly" are complete disconnects.

They DO recognize that people are not buying what they are peddling and that it is important that they mask what they are really trying to accomplish: "We need to make a distinction between the first-principles conversation and the one on electoral winning strategies. And I think that becomes tricky." Fortunately, enough people are now comprehending that trickery a bit.

"Polls continually show that people are rhetorically conservative and operationally liberal or progressive." - yeah, and ALL Christians and other people of faith have a sinful nature, despite all intentions to follow God's Word. Their own sin doesn't mean that they think God ought to be ignored.

It is funny how people like this can see the problem, have the solution right in front of them, and fail to see it.

IF they ever were able to implement the solution, I might consider voting for someone other than a Republican or other conservative, but it appears that is far, far in the future.
20 posted on 03/05/2005 3:13:38 PM PST by AFPhys ((.Praying for President Bush, our troops, their families, and all my American neighbors..))
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To: neverdem

21 posted on 03/05/2005 3:15:07 PM PST by John Lenin
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To: neverdem

"Bush administration's guiding principle is a belief in military power, not a belief in human rights and democracy. It is why there has been no Marshall Plan since 9/11 by this administration."

What the hell is this guy talking about? Has he noticed the elections and popular democracy movements at the heart of the Bush Doctrine? And where does he think a Marshall Plan should happen? whew. Nuts they are.


22 posted on 03/05/2005 3:15:36 PM PST by hinckley buzzard
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To: neverdem

This is why I am an Exdem


23 posted on 03/05/2005 3:15:42 PM PST by exdem2000
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To: neverdem
Liberals are as interesting as my Left Behind.
24 posted on 03/05/2005 3:16:39 PM PST by Bear_Slayer (If you're gonna be a Knight, act like a Knight)
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To: neverdem
The most amusing thing is that Katrina vanden Heuvel is still viewed by libs as an intelligent person.
It is hard to imagine anyone that is more shallow and simplistic in her thinking.
I got the feeling reading it that the other two wished she would shut up instead of repeating worn out,tired lib dogma.
I hope the dems listen to her though.It is a clear road map for another losing election cycle.
25 posted on 03/05/2005 3:17:28 PM PST by carlr
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To: neverdem
TOMASKY. One of the Democratic Party's problems is that it doesn't have enough contact with its rank and file.

This to me is one of the most important (and least spoken about) reasons why 'rats consider themselves "left behind". They think their problem is lack of organization instead of lack of ideas.

They communicate just fine (most of the time, how can you avoid them? :'}, but we ain't buyin what they are sellin!
26 posted on 03/05/2005 3:18:31 PM PST by rockrr (Revote or Revolt! It's up to you Washington!)
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To: neverdem
Ye gads! Is it just my perception, or are those people completely delusional?

They refuse to see that it's not how they present and market their agenda that is causing them problems, but that the agenda itself is rotten to the core.

They had, what, 70 years to make their programs work? And all they brought was misery and dependence.

But instead of changing their agenda to suit the 21st century, they keep beating that old 19th century dead horse of "social and economic justice".


27 posted on 03/05/2005 3:22:57 PM PST by FierceDraka (The Democratic Party - Aiding and Abetting The Enemies of America Since 1968)
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To: neverdem
TOMASKY. I'm skeptical that Palestinian statehood, which I assume all of us support, which George Bush has said he supports, will solve a lot of these problems. I'm not persuaded that on the day that Palestinian statehood arrives that there still won't be buses being bombed in Israel. I'm skeptical that Israeli security forces will sit on their hands. And I'm skeptical that Islamic fundamentalists won't just find some other reason to hate the United States.

A liberal voice of reason speaks and notice the subject is immediately changed.

28 posted on 03/05/2005 3:26:20 PM PST by Drew68
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To: carlr

I concur with your thoughts. You might be as surprised to learn as I was that Katrina's rag, the NATION, has THREE TIMES the paid subcriptions of the New Republic..Tells you where the heart of te Dem party really is, eh?


29 posted on 03/05/2005 3:28:27 PM PST by ken5050 (The Dem party is as dead as the NHL..)
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To: FierceDraka

If the GOP plays it right 2006 should be another disaster for the DEMS.


30 posted on 03/05/2005 3:31:09 PM PST by chris1 ("Make the other guy die for his country" - George S. Patton Jr.)
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To: neverdem

They're still in massive denial... like Communists who refused to believe the fall of the Berlin Wall had any significance.

So far, so good. Hopefully they will continue to delude themselves (strong UN a winning strategy ROFL) through the next few elections.


31 posted on 03/05/2005 3:38:28 PM PST by thoughtomator (National Socialist, Transnational Socialist, what's the difference?)
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To: neverdem
BEINART. Let me say a couple of things as someone who did support the war in Iraq. There is no question that the war is going very, very badly.

When has it ever been done better?

32 posted on 03/05/2005 3:48:35 PM PST by RJL
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To: neverdem

I am sorry. I tried but I could not finish reading this. Those people are in such denial they state the opposite of the truth. Let's be real quit and not wake them. They are doing just fine the way they are.


33 posted on 03/05/2005 3:51:06 PM PST by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all things that need to be done need to be done by the government.)
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To: thoughtomator

TOMASKY: I think the war in Iraq was a catastrophic mistake. It was not part of the war on terror. Somebody attacked us. We didn't get him. He's still at large. That's the war on terrorism to me. That's the heart of it.

...so let me get this right. Osama is the embodiment of every single terrorist organization, every suicide bomber, every Timothy McVeigh, and if he's taken out of the picture, all of these people will just put their hands up and walk away... Sounds like something the French might do, but somehow I doubt Hussein would have crumbled if we had killed/captured Osama... just a hunch. And this guy is a leader of a national party?!?!


34 posted on 03/05/2005 3:58:42 PM PST by RedBeaconNY (The greatest mystery to man, is man himself.)
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To: neverdem

VANDEN HEUVEL. I would begin with the unrelenting assault on the term liberalism by the right wing. It has been a project over the last few decades. And by failing to take their own side in the argument liberals have conceded -- to the point where John Kerry was wary of being associated with liberalism in one of the debates. Liberals have also paid a heavy price by allowing liberalism to be defined almost exclusively as social liberalism. So that you lost sight of economic rights, economic justice.

You know this is diametric to the democratic strategy of the democrats. Their strategy has been to move the far left into leadership positions, case in point the ascension of Pelosi and the selection of Dean. They should at least be consistent in their apologetics

35 posted on 03/05/2005 4:13:06 PM PST by rottweiller_inc
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To: neverdem; Willie Green

I thinkI finally found out who Willie Green is.

He's VANDEN HEUVEL.


36 posted on 03/05/2005 4:19:56 PM PST by MonroeDNA (Handshakes can cause the spread of disease. Be considerate--sniff my butt.)
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To: neverdem
Why has ''liberal'' become a dirty word for so many Americans today?

Because you’re not really “liberals”. Liberalism is supposed to be about social progress but “liberals” today are more about preserving entrenched bureaucracies that serve the current social order than they are about change. Face it, “liberals” only have two agendas – weakening America and taking money away from people who earn it to give to, well, other liberals.

What would a liberal foreign policy look like?

Liberal foreign policy is about weakening America, nothing more. One of the things “liberalism” is supposed to be about is opposition to extreme nationalism, yet “liberals” today have thrown their support behind every ultra-nationalist nut ball on the planet from Yasser Arafat to Hugo Chavez - as long as they pass the litmus test of hating America. If this is “principled realism”, we’ll not have any thank you.

To move on to domestic economic policy, the Bush administration pursues a more market-oriented philosophy while liberals tend to pursue a more government oriented philosophy. Is there some meeting ground?

Yes, become what we call “conservatives”, ie realist, centrist moderate nationalists who believe in god, the constitution and the essential goodness of America’s historic mission. We won't hold our breath.

Can the Democrats become the majority party in America again?

Sure, all that is needed is for the Republicans to screw up – something that, fortunately for the Democrats, they are quite good at. The Republican leadership’s continued failure to secure our borders and stop the profligate spending spree are two things that could weaken the Republicans by eroding their base. The important thing to remember is that the people who run the Republican Party went to the same schools, live in the same neighborhoods and belong to the same social set as the people who run the Democratic Party.

37 posted on 03/05/2005 4:23:45 PM PST by InABunkerUnderSF (San Francisco - See It Before God Smites It.)
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To: neverdem
"The party has to have a listening tour

Hitlary's strategy.

38 posted on 03/05/2005 4:24:31 PM PST by MonroeDNA (Handshakes can cause the spread of disease. Be considerate--sniff my butt.)
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To: RedBeaconNY

I live in a community of about 400 senior cradle democrats who don't vote. Their disillusionment is the result of corrupt, undemocratic politics in the NE. They have never lived in a democracy, don't know how it is supposed to work, feel like they have always been lied to, and refuse to vote. They do beleive in the maffia, however.


39 posted on 03/05/2005 4:24:56 PM PST by ClaireSolt (.)
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To: neverdem
Why has ''liberal'' become a dirty word for so many Americans today?

I've got a feeling we're about to find out...

VANDEN HEUVEL. A majority of Americans support an America that works with international institutions, that wants a strengthened U.N., that wants to be part of a constructive multilateral engagement with the world.

I don't know a single individual who wants any of those things.

But on the gay marriage issue, for example, we are a more tolerant country than we were 20, 30 years ago.

Yep, there's one reason.

VANDEN HEUVEL. Again, we need to make the case that these are not our values, but without diminishing the liberal belief in free speech.

Yep, there's another.

It is why they have not seriously engaged with trying to create liberal currents in civil society in the Muslim world.

WTF?

TOMASKY. I think the war in Iraq was a catastrophic mistake.

Is he still addressing the questiong of Why Liberal is a dirty word?

Not on Social Security. Social Security returns efficiencies that very few private programs of its sort can return. It's the greatest social insurance program devised by any government, ever.

I wonder if this guy could, with a straight face, repeat this comment to someone trying to survive on social security income.

40 posted on 03/05/2005 4:27:44 PM PST by Can i say that here?
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To: neverdem

Mental masturbation to the extreme.


41 posted on 03/05/2005 4:30:07 PM PST by doug from upland (Ray Charles --- a great musician and safer driver than Ted Kennedy)
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To: neverdem
...trying to create liberal currents in civil society in the Muslim world.

This was one of the specific reasons the perps had for bringing down the towers - no?

42 posted on 03/05/2005 4:31:36 PM PST by Libloather (The left is dead! Long live their impeached *King and *Queen!)
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To: neverdem
Social Security returns efficiencies that very few private programs of its sort can return.

Possibly the STUPIDEST words to ever appear on the Internet!!!

43 posted on 03/05/2005 4:34:10 PM PST by Lurking2Long
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To: hc87

How does someone as nice looking as Katrina become such a blithering idiot? To answer my own question: become a Liberal.


44 posted on 03/05/2005 4:36:47 PM PST by fish hawk
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To: neverdem
FReeper homework: dust off your old copies of Plato's Republic. Now turn to the "Allegory of the Cave." After reading it, do not these three sages above fit perfectly the description of the poor schmucks who are chained to the bench watching shadows go hither and thither on the wall thinking they represent reality?
45 posted on 03/05/2005 4:41:43 PM PST by Snickersnee (Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?)
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To: wardaddy; Joe Brower; Cannoneer No. 4; Criminal Number 18F; Dan from Michigan; Eaker; King Prout; ..

From time to time, I’ll ping on noteworthy articles about politics, foreign and military affairs. FReepmail me if you want on or off my list.

Sorry if you already read this, but it is rich.

The libs did not mention their ole time religion of gun control once that I noticed.


46 posted on 03/05/2005 4:54:06 PM PST by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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To: LA Conservative

You brought up an excellent point. Now the Libs want to be known as "progressives". Sheese. The devil by any other name is still the devil.


47 posted on 03/05/2005 5:04:06 PM PST by utahguy (Ya gotta kill it before you grill it: Ted Nugent)
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To: DTogo

amazing the party of "stay out of my womb" has no problems with penalizing for drugs in someones' system.


48 posted on 03/05/2005 5:05:09 PM PST by rottweiller_inc
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To: neverdem

Bump for later.


49 posted on 03/05/2005 5:05:17 PM PST by jalisco555 ("The best lack all conviction, while the worst are full of passionate intensity." W. B. Yeats)
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To: neverdem
I don't think we understand the challenges of the 21st century if we make the ''global war against terror'' our organizing principle.

How do poor, dumb creatures like this even manage to find food, unaided...?

50 posted on 03/05/2005 5:06:14 PM PST by KentTrappedInLiberalSeattle (I feel more and more like a revolted Charlton Heston, witnessing ape society for the very first time)
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