Posted on 03/10/2005 5:19:05 PM PST by The Loan Arranger
Attempts to explain anti-Western feelings among Muslims have centered on weaknesses in Islamic societies and opposition to U.S. foreign policy. Church historian Meic Pearse bucks the trend by focusing on cultural differences—and along the way makes some prickly points about Western ways.
In Why the Rest Hates the West, Pearse builds on the thesis of Samuel P. Huntington (The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Orders, Simon & Schuster, 1997) that cultural factors increasingly dominate world conflicts. Pearse more directly asserts that culture, not religion or foreign policy, causes most of the conflicts between the West and the rest.
He asserts that culture includes religion, but it's much more. While Huntington compares civilizations especially in the last 100 years, Pearse focuses on Western developments since the Reformation. And unlike Roger Scruton in The West and the Rest: Globalization and the Terrorist Threat (Intercollegiate Studies Institute, 2002), Pearse does more than contrast the West's secular governments and Islam's divinely ordained political order. His portrayal of Western culture, however, bears some similarity to Scruton's description of non-Western caricatures of it.
Pearse argues that Western culture has changed so much since the Enlightenment that Western "common sense" is no longer self-evident to other cultures. Islamic cultures believe the West is "barbaric," showing lack of respect for the past, religion, family, and honor, while overindulging in sports, entertainment, and sex.
(Excerpt) Read more at christianitytoday.com ...
Discussion Material?
divinely ordained political order????
I think there is a lot to this. This is a very odd culture, by our standards.
A lot of it keeps a fairly close tab on women - I don't know if its the women they don't trust or the other males (probably both).
I think the dominant cultural mindset in that region is just terrified at the thought of their daughters dressed like hoochie mamas and slutting around, and their wives in tight pants with 'juicy' plastered across the arse getting overwhelmed by hunky UPS guys for occasional dalliances.
Western culture males have pretty much quietly accepted the fact that they can't discipline their daughters or their sons, and that their wives will have occasional sex with hunky UPS guys. ;-)
For much of the arab world, there is no middle ground, and the western status quo is unthinkable. So some would rather die than have our culture exported to theirs (which will ultimately destroy their culture).
I think the irony here is that the western expansion of culture was largely accidental and more a force of momentum than any specific goal to destroy other cultures. I do think that part of the admin's strategy is to explicitly export our culture to that part of the world with the explicit goal of making them more like us.
The reasoning is that the kind of people who are going to ballgames, ordering pizzas, reading Jackie Collins novels, saving up for vacations, and having sex on the sly with UPS guys or dental hygenists won't be too excited about blowing themselves up.
I think that's largely valid, too.
Do you have the website address to apply at UPS? LOL (pay may not be great, but how 'bout them 'bennies"). Never mind, I've never seen a heavyset UPS or Fedex guy, so I guees I don't qualify....
"I think the irony here is that the western expansion of culture was largely accidental and more a force of momentum than any specific goal to destroy other cultures."
Our government is the number one financier for abortion providers and condom providers in the world. There is nothing accidental about it.
Americans re-elected Billyboy and would have elected him again if he could have run. So instead, Americans voted for Al Gore, who is also pro-abortion, pro-sodomite, etc. The Muslims definitely have a point.
I wasn't speaking about abortion (and have no idea why youare). I am just talking about the export of our generally more permissive and sexually loose culture. Abortion is a sypmtom of that, not the cause.
You can't blame them for thinking America is hell on Earth when we export images of immorality via cable and satellite.
We have one place to thank for most of this: Hollywood.
And who do you think is nearly unanimously in support of the liberal Democrats? Hollywood, not to mention lawyers, corrupt union officials, felons looking for a vote, affirmative action (read this "remedial racism") advocates etc. etc.
Is it just me, or does it seem that all the forces that are aimed at destroying the U.S., either through instilling hatred or fear in other cultures, or setting legal precedent that is eating America from within like a cancer, sapping our strength, are allied with the liberal Democrats?
You know, if you keep looking at what they do, you can see why the get so sensitive when the word "unpatriotic" pops up.
That's cute, we're immoral and Muslims are moral.
I suppose beating your wives, putting machine guns into children's hands, hyjacking planes and crashing them into buildings, looking foward to 72 virgins when you die, killing your daughter because she was raped and caused dishonor to your family, IS morally superior to the EVIL American way of life.
Haha!! There are whole countries full of women that would be tickled pink to be married to my fat @$$, so why should I have to put up with that kind of nonsense from one of these "princesses?" Take a look: http://www.livinginthephilippines.com/#Girlfriend
http://www.adorable-ladies.com
This is only true if the silly Hollywood talk and "reality" shows was truly representative of most Americans. Most people simply laugh that stuff off. Someone needs to tell those people "it's only entertainment, not real life."
Muslims don't care about politics because they have no politics. They government IS religion...
They can't abhor something they don't "know".
I didn't suggest that mandate - We're immoral and they are moral.' I don't know where you got that, sorry.
I don't care at all for the Islamic brand of morality at all (I think few westerners do, in fact).
I was just commenting on what I think is a common (though not exclusive) Muslim male's point of view. Our brand of immorality in intolerable to them (just as their brand is intolerable to many of us). I didn't endorse their brand (nor did I endorse our brand).
I agree with you that their mindset is unhealthy, but that sentiment makes it no less real.
You have no argument from me - like I said, I never endorsed that point of view.
For some time now I've had the impression that the underlying fear and "hatred" that many Muslims (males) have of Western culture, stems from this:
The fear that in such a culture, they would not be guaranteed a virgin bride.
I'm serious. I think that 95% of the rules and "traditions" and treatment of women we see in this "traditional" culture is basically geared around an almost monomaniacal obsession with making sure that the culture supplies virgin women to marry.
This is even more speculative, of course, but one might further postulate that this obsession with suppressing female sexuality stems from deep sexual insecurity....
Translation: the men of Islamic cultures feel threatened by any culture in which they are not guaranteed a virgin bride. This is what "barbaric" boils down to - female sexuality. (And the suppression of women including "honor killings" that take place in their culture, of course, are not "barbaric" - because those things take place to ensure virgin brides.)
The result [of West's "barbaric" values] has been social atomization, dehumanization, and harm to the family and community.
Can't really argue with that. So instead of our "barbaric" freedoms, which admittedly have some bad results as described above, they would substitute cutting off peoples' hands, owning women as property, etc.
Pearse calls for a reform of belief and behavior in the West so that it increasingly resembles "the rest." He says this renewed moral vision should be based not on a culture of rights but of duty. Religious faith and life, he argues, must be brought back into the public square.
Here's the problem. Let's say Pearse is right that our conflict stems from our secularism. Let's say he's right that the conflict could be lessened, theoretically, by bringing religious faith and life "back into the public square".
But we can't do that without abandoning our Constitution. So if what he's saying is true, our Constitution makes it inevitable that we'll be in conflict with what are called "traditional" societies. The only real question then is whether we defend ourselves. I say yes.
When Muslims explain their anger, they tend to focus on Western and especially U.S. foreign policy.
The author of this book review (Woodberry) is trying to say that our foreign policy is too to blame. So I guess Woodberry buys into the idea that there's something objectively bad and anger-worthy about our foreign policy. What I wonder is whether Muslims would be so "angry" about our (supposedly horrible) foreign policy if they weren't constantly told to be angry about it, by propagandistic and sensationalistic state media with agendas. Our foreign policy makes someone angry, that's true enough, but it isn't necessarily first and foremost the Muslim masses. Perhaps it's the Muslim leaders who control the media with which they propagandize those masses.
If so, the question then becomes why our foreign policy makes certain powerful, propaganda-using Muslim leaders angry... but answering that question is pretty easy and does not support the notion that we need to change our foreign policy. So no US-foreign-policy-critic pursues this line of reasoning to begin with. But they should, because it would make things clearer. Islamic leaders are "angered" by our foreign policy because we inhibit their power. So what?
He said the idea of attacking buildings in the United States came to him when he was watching Israeli aircraft bombing tower blocks in Lebanon in 1982.
This, by the way, was a recent invention. He had never mentioned it much before. (Don't you remember that originally he was supposedly mad about our infidel troops being in Saudi Arabia?) Some have speculated that this Lebanon stuff was simply an attempt on OBL's part to get in good with Syria.
Also why is it supposed to be considered rational for OBL, a Saudi (country #1) to think of attacking the US (country #2) for something Israel (country #3) does to Lebanon (country #4)? Why does everyone accept the rationality of his pan-Islamism, as if we are required to bow down to it?
Accepting any of this uncritically, at face value, is silly. OBL is a power-seeker. He seeks to build an Islamic empire and the US stands in his way. So it's true, in a very stupid sense, that "US foreign policy" has caused "Islamic resentment", but there's not a damn thing we can OR SHOULD do about that. The primary "Islamic" in this equation is OBL, a spoiled wealthy brat who fantasizes about forming an empire. His "resentment" is the fact that he hasn't been able to form an empire. Well boo fricking hoo. He has no right to do so in the first place.
Yousef Qardawi, an influential cleric based in Qatar, disavows terrorism but denounces the United States for supporting Israel's occupation of Palestine, and now for occupying Iraq. People like Qardawi interpret these policies as a war against Islam.
And they are wrong. Treating them as if this paranoia is sanity simply obscures the fact that they are wrong. Why would Woodberry do that?
I suppose that Qardawi could be considered right in the sense that, to some zealous Muslims, "preventing the formation of an Islamic empire" is the same as "making war on Islam". But again, if so, there's nothing we can or should do about that.
Forming An Empire is not a universal human right.
If that's why they're angry at us - because we stand in the way - then tough s**t. Conflict is inevitable and we may as well get on with it.
I think it's all part of a very deep fear that our culture will corrupt (and destroy) their culture.
As to the root of these fears, we can speculate. It really doesn't matter - I really do think they fear our culture more than they fear our politics.
In the USA, in many cases a man with a cheating wife gets a divorce and she gets 1/2 of their marital property.
A woman with a cheating husband gets the same - a divorce and 1/2 of what the martial property.
In either case, the offending party also gets 1/2 of the marital property. Everone is free to find happiness someplace else.
In the Islamic world, the penalty for a cheating bride can be death. That's a pretty big disparity and has to hinge on a lot of different positions on policy and on culture.
The virgin bride thing, that may well be a big part of it. Clearly to me, at the very least, they don't want their daughters in belly revealing 1/2-Tshirts and tight cutoff jeans staying out until 2am (or 7:30pm for that matter). Similarly, they don't want their brides to advertise how 'juicy' their rear ends are and picking up prickly guys at the juice bar at the local gym and inviting them to their marital bed.
Some men fear (and/or hate) this so much that they are prepared to die to keep it away.
Well Said!
I wouldn't overstate it, nor would I understate it. Clearly, what drives much of their culture is keeping a lid on their female's sexuality.
Western culture rips that lid open (comparatively).
That's at least part of what drives these folks, no doubt.
Where did you guys get that stuff? Setting up a phantom strawman and kocking it down is the stuff of liberals, not us!
You may want to check this out - Misconceptions about women in Islam
http://www.submission.org/women/mis.html
http://www.submission.org/women/
Muslims hate non - muslims because God wants it that way. - tom
That may explain why they don't like someone, but doesn't explain why they would kill to prevent their culture from being contaminated by ours.
Possibly interesting.
Western cultures believe Islam is "barbaric," showing lack of respect for present accomplishments, freedom of religion, human life, and scientific achievement, while overindulging in murder, murder, and murder.
No. More Americans voted for George W. Bush.
Plus consider that the 'standards' of our morality the Arab journalism world is likely showcasing is MTV and BET.
Well, and that's exactly what I'm saying.
Of course, nobody "wants" their daughters, wives, etc. in belly revealing 1/2-Tshirts and tight cutoff etc. But in the West, we don't kill over it (usually).
Now, you're absolutely right, some men do fear and/or hate that prospect so much they are prepared to die (and more to the point, kill) if they think doing so can prevent it. These men are, in a word, fanatics. And many of them are to be found in the Islamic world. Like I said, one can only speculate as to why they are so fanatically paranoid about female sexuality, but the fact is that they are. And I don't think that this has been properly acknowledged as an underlying cause of our culture-clash.
Killing infidels is part of the religion.
There is more than these but youshould get the drift.
Kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191) "Ye are the best of peoples evolved for mankind." (Koran 3:110)
"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and genitals cut off, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)
"Not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (Koran 5:51)
"Remember Allah inspired the angels: I am with you. Give firmness to the believers. I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: you smite them above their necks and smite all their fingertips off of them." (Koran, 8:12)
"In order that Allah may separate the pure from the impure, put all the impure ones [all non-Muslims] one on top of another in a heap and cast them into hell. They will have been the ones to have lost." (Koran, 8:37)
"If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them [infidels]" (Koran 8:65).
Allah and his messenger announce that it is acceptable to go back on our promises (treaties) and obligations with Pagans and make war on them whenever we find ourselves strong enough to do so (Koran 9:3)
"Fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5)
Our God tells us to "fight the unbelievers" and "He will punish them by our hands, cover them with shame and help us (to victory) over them" (Koran 9:14).
"Until they pay the Jizya [a penalty tax for the non-Muslims living under Islamic rules] with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued" (Koran 9:29)
"Unless we go forth, (for Jihad) He will punish us with a grievous penalty, and put others in our place" (9:39).
"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)
"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended???? "When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)
"How many were the populations we utterly destroyed because of their sins, setting up in their place other peoples." (Koran, 21:11)
"strike off the heads of the disbelievers" (Koran 47:4) "Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire.
Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)
"You (i.e. Muslims) will fight wi the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' " (Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177)
Their brand of morality is evil.
I agree 100%. Well said.
The sexual aspect is clearly known by our 'people' in charge - witness the controversial use of women's sexuality in interrogation of some terror suspects. An american male being tough is met with defiance, while a young, buxom female interrogator taking off her jacket to reveal a tight t-shirt, and sitting on his lap brushing his hair reduced one suspect to tears and whails.
'You go girl!' I say.
So while it isn't discussed a lot in our media outlets (mainstream and otherwise), the brass knows that female sexuality is a potent weapon in breaking these whackjobs down. It's a weakness that should be thoroughly exploited (shy of torture, of course).
For what it's worth, the Abu Gharab leaked photos seemed to showcase a dominant western female emasculating muslim warriors (with ease, it appeared).
If a dozen PsyOps types got together and brainstormed, a flap like that would be just what they might have concocted. Hmmmm....
I agree 100%. Well said.
The sexual aspect is clearly known by our 'people' in charge - witness the controversial use of women's sexuality in interrogation of some terror suspects. An american male being tough is met with defiance, while a young, buxom female interrogator taking off her jacket to reveal a tight t-shirt, and sitting on his lap brushing his hair reduced one suspect to tears and whails.
'You go girl!' I say.
So while it isn't discussed a lot in our media outlets (mainstream and otherwise), the brass knows that female sexuality is a potent weapon in breaking these whackjobs down. It's a weakness that should be thoroughly exploited (shy of torture, of course).
For what it's worth, the Abu Gharab leaked photos seemed to showcase a dominant western female emasculating muslim warriors (with ease, it appeared).
If a dozen PsyOps types got together and brainstormed, a flap like that would be just what they might have concocted. Hmmmm....
No argument from me.
I know, but the Old Testement has all sorts of violent punishments in it, and Orthodox Jews don't make it a point to live up to that letter of the law.
So there is a difference - I'm not saying that the violence it isn't rooted in their religious texts. I'm saying that whatever violence advocated in those texts is bolstered by their culture. To me, that's more important - we can change their culture, we can't rewrite their religious texts.
Both our cultures are immoral in different ways
AMEN! I was about to post the same thing.
This is an entirely backward situation, where we have a culture mired in the barbaric 12th century passing judgement on modern civilization and morals.
Trouble is, the Muslim version of the 'good old days' is just what they want for the world- just what you described.
Here's a question for everyone-
Imagine a world with no Islam. None. Gone.
Is it a better or worse place? What good is it doing for mankind anyway?
Thanks DS... I'll catch up with this later.
"That's cute, we're immoral and Muslims are moral. I suppose beating your wives, putting machine guns into children's hands, hyjacking planes and crashing them into buildings, looking foward to 72 virgins when you die, killing your daughter because she was raped and caused dishonor to your family, IS morally superior to the EVIL American way of life."
Certainly no worse than cutting heads off babies, the big thing in America these days. We do it one-third of our kids.
"Western cultures believe Islam is 'barbaric,' showing lack of respect for present accomplishments, freedom of religion, human life, and scientific achievement, while overindulging in murder, murder, and murder."
And what is even worse, those Muslims want to deny a mother the right to kill her unborn child -- the very cornerstone of American liberty. We must fight those barbarians!
"I don't know if it is the Quaran or a perversion of it, but as of now, Muslim women are oppressed."
Just making a point that there are some Muslims that do not believe that the oppresions you cited are according to the koran and do not go along with them.
Uh, excuse me. Has anyone taken a good look at the Queen of Jordan lately? Now THERE is one hot mama! The middle eastern wackos need to start at home if they are so determined to put a blanket over all women.
I have read all 116 or so of the Koran chapters. I don't mean I read it like a novel. You put yourself in a Muslims place.
There is one God Allah, period. Muhammed is his prophet, period. What does Allah want of me if anything? Does HE want me to spend more time fishing or what?
When you finish the Koran you should know in no uncertain terms what HE wants. I have the same take as the Wahabbis do on the religion. Don't befriend non - Muslims, subdue or kill non-believers, and since they are offensive to HIM you can deceive the Infidel in anyway you see fit, if it will further Islam.
We are in a religious war and only a lethal dose of poison will stop Islam. And that poison is western culture, American style. But the Wahabbis realize this and it is why they don't want the culture changed and why they resist so much. - Tom
for later....
This is even more speculative, of course, but one might further postulate that this obsession with suppressing female sexuality stems from deep sexual insecurity....
I'll take it one step further: cultures that greatly suppress women (including the Catholic Church as an example in our Western culture) are ALSO afraid of the potential of female intuition that has the power to 'tune in' very often at a level that scares men who crave power to death. History is full of examples of martyrd women who had the 'power' of insight (Joan of Arc comes to mind). My guess is that these men are truly terrified of the 'power' of females, one example of which is the sexual 'power' women have over men. Food for thought.
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